Author Topic: Bluelike  (Read 7729 times)

Monkeyfinger

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2009, 09:30:18 PM »
Most SMT:N bosses have the "one dragon's eye/beast eye per turn" restrictions, but there's a couple bosses in Masakados's dungeon that break that rule. If they freeze or shock you after dragon eye, they're allowed to do a beast eye which they spend on physicals to hack the statused target apart.

Taishyr

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2009, 10:16:58 PM »
Frue final boss of SMT:N is pretty much unrankable. It is completely possible to -miss- the skill you need to do anything other than high double digit damage to him, and equally possible to accidentally get rid of it since you don't know that's what it's for. As such he's horrendously durable and outslugs pretty much the entirety of the DL.

The boss before... blitzable, yeah. Mid-Godlike probably.

There's still multiple bosses from SMT:N which are just unfeasible, though I'm drawing a blank on specific examples. (Arguably Ahriman's "Gates of Hell" phase makes him too much of a gimmick boss, for example).

Yoshiken

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2009, 10:28:50 PM »
Ahriman's pure evil regardless. >_>  Second strongest attack in the whole game, IIRC...
And Lucifer's durability might be amazing, but the majority of his attacks are weak and he relies almost entirely on status to stand a chance - up against another character with good durability & some status resistance, he'd be outslugged.
Baal Avatar would be Bluelike, almost no doubt. Again, IIRC, Bael's Bane is unblockable... right?

Is there gonna be a Bluelike tourney run? I know that wasn't the original intention of this topic, but I think it seems like a good idea... I'd be happy to help out where possible, although "where possible" for me isn't very much. :P

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2009, 10:39:57 PM »
Is there gonna be a Bluelike tourney run? I know that wasn't the original intention of this topic, but I think it seems like a good idea... I'd be happy to help out where possible, although "where possible" for me isn't very much. :P

While not the original intent of this topic, it certainly would be interesting to see another Bluelike Tourney. Maybe it could combine elements of the Twink League, too. There's not a lot of PCs in the lineup of Bluelike, so if you took the Bluelike bosses and combined it with a few PCs with some twinking options... Well, it sounds like it would be a powerful roster for a tourney.

Anyway, all this talk of SMT bosses reminded me that P3's final boss is pretty Bluelike, too... though I'm not sure if he's high Bluelike compared some of these other SMT guys... >.>;;

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Taishyr

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2009, 10:42:42 PM »
The physical's a low 2HKO when double-acted, you are -not- blowing past the limit phase at which point he gets... well, borderline OHKO  or 50% cHP damage+low 2HKO damage (don't remember if King of Kings could be doubleacted).

Oh, and the physical has absurd crit chances.

Effectively he's deceptively brutal at stacking damage up. If you've played MMXCM, he's Silver Horn trading the limit durability boost and speed for a more brutal damage reduction game and the doubleacting; arguably a winning trade. There's probably a few Godlikes who beat him? Maybe? Depending on interp? But the number's drastically low. (Aeon Yuna has the best argument from what I can tell.)

And Bael's Bane... ignores status/light/dark PC immunity. Arguably works on bosses, that's an interp call.

Ninja Edit: Moonless Gown/Night Queen ensures Nyx bluelike status, yes.

Monkeyfinger

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2009, 11:00:28 PM »
People like Bat and Baal Avatar ignore all status protection that PCs can get in game, but that doesn't mean it gets past the universal status immunity most bosses in the DL have. I'd see them not affecting most bosses, and working on most PCs, though a specific blocker for transform (imp, etc.) would stop it - SMT PCs simply don't have access to those blockers.

Damage on SMT:N endgame bosses is a headache since so many things can influence it. I remember lucifer 9HKOing with the physical. That would make him total bait to someone like Wren in the DL.

Yoshiken

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2009, 11:01:18 PM »
Just flicking through some old seasons (seeing as I wasn't around for when they actually happened...), noticed a lot of duellers who've been removed from the DL. How many of those are Bluelikes? (And why were they removed, if not this? ???)
A tournament with those, Bluelikes & twinked PCs could be quite interesting... And probably not -too- hard to get a decent roster for, methinks.

superaielman

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2009, 11:03:44 PM »
None of the ones we've retired have been because they were bluelike. Some were drawing problems (We have Orgodemir from DQ7), one or two had form issues. (Necron, Dario).
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Talaysen

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2009, 11:19:23 PM »
Lucifer's damage sucks if you stack buffs/debuffs on him.  It was like a 3HKO on Hard mode and I was underlevelled.  Not getting much hype from me as a result.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2009, 11:23:07 PM »
None of the ones we've retired have been because they were bluelike. Some were drawing problems (We have Orgodemir from DQ7), one or two had form issues. (Necron, Dario).

Orgodemir was ranked?! When? I've never even heard of this before? He doesn't show up on the DL Stats topic or on the drawing history webpage (the only reason I knew about Meis)? At least, I'd never seen him there before?

What other games have been deleted?

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superaielman

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2009, 11:27:19 PM »
Orgo is the only one unlisted. He was ranked for... oh hell, from season 5 to season 7. Not long at all. Didn't get a match, just was deleted.

All other boots can be found in my DLnotes topic.
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
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Taishyr

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2009, 11:39:04 PM »
Talaysen: Thus why, say, Brahman would break his ass somewhat, but I'm not penalizing his damage unless he actually goes up against a buffer/debuffer - don't think it's all too fair to allow for a potential double-penalization there.

(And he has Dekaja/Dekunda anyway.)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2009, 02:01:50 AM »
Every boss with Rage or Psycho Rage has a clear once-per-round restriction on those moves. So no infinite turns are possible. Don't know how it works in SMT:N, but the DDS hype isn't warranted. As Tal observes, though, Infinite Volsung turns is possible, just unlikely.

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Excal

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2009, 08:04:14 AM »
Eh, I can't see a Bluelike Tourney being that interesting.  I know the first Twink League didn't have that many restraints on the PCs, so the last few rounds of the final were basically a PC based Bluelike thing.  And the entire thing devolved into initiative wars.  He who could start his infinite/overkill combo first, won.  So...  yeah.  Though, hey, Darkness Stance might make things interesting.

InfinityDragon

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2009, 11:43:33 AM »
Eh, most SMT bosses are strategic fights that place a far greater emphasis on learning and exploiting flaws than other RPGs. While this generally makes them tougher bosses when playing the game, the assumption in the Duelling League that the opponents knows everything about each other and use perfect strategy takes away a lot of their perceived killing power (Unless your're against DDS Demifiend where you lose 80% of the time even when applying perfect, flawless strategy).

My own observations:

Lucifer is a pretty clear-cut Bluelike. Root of All Evil does 50% cHP in damage on a good day and 90% cHP in damage on a bad day. High King is a solid 2HKO discounting any buffing. 80% damage reduction to any and all damage just means he outslugs just about everyone in Godlike. PC healers who try to wall him eventually eat a 90% Root and promptly die on the next attack, most bosses lack good healing and just lose an attrition war.

Baal Avatar is nothing special. Bael's Bane is easily blocked by Curse Immunity, which basically means anyone immune to Poison/Silence/Gravity Damage/whatever-else-you-consider-SMT Curse laughs at it (its definitely blockable in-game, unlike Bat's similar attack, and almost all high end demons laugh at it; Demifiend just puts on Djed or Masakados and laughs at it). Outside her gimmick move, Baal Avatar has horrible damage, innaccurate ID, and frail as hell summons. Probably struggles in low Godlike, let alone Bluelike.

Ahriman...probably not a Bluelike, but is a solid godlike. Most Godlikes can get through his stupid game phase with two or three attacks (6000 HP at that point in the game is...uh...sad), so having extreme variety isn't that necessary. Second phase has Apocalypse, which is pretty solid, but he's still inferior to Lucifer and Kagutschi.

Kagutsuchi is probably a fairly high godlike. Infinite Light does stupid amounts of damage...and he has almost triple the HP of Noah. Wasting a turn announcing he's going to nuke you into oblivion brings him down a fair bit, although 125% PC HP in raw Almighty damage is still painful, even if its every other round.

Brahman...yeah, Eternal Zero saves his ass and propels him all the way to borderline Bluelike. Probably low godlike without that...if even that. SMT buffing is that evil.

Monkeyfinger

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2009, 02:00:22 AM »
I didn't do as much twinking in DDS as I did in SMT:N, so Brahman had high 2HKO damage over his actions, a truckload of HP, and 4 buffer points. That alone makes a decent godlike, though not a bluelike.

Pyro

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2009, 02:15:14 AM »
Apparently there is a trick where you can drain DDS Demifiend's summoned creatures of MP and ensure he never uses his super-move or whatever it was, so perfect strategy does do him in.

Not that I would ever try this, I'm not that crazy.

InfinityDragon

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2009, 05:06:39 AM »
Quote
Apparently there is a trick where you can drain DDS Demifiend's summoned creatures of MP and ensure he never uses his super-move or whatever it was, so perfect strategy does do him in.

Not really. You can't effectively drain the first two summons because they use low MP spells with very fatal effects. Eventually Girimekhala will get lucky and wipe you out with Mamudoon or CuChulainn will get lucky and Sakura Rage will Charm your entire party. Crits from the Demifiend means his demons get extra turns so they can't be solely locked into Dekaja/Dekunda spam. That and if you're spamming -kaja/-kunda spells to lock them, this means you'll get Taunted to minimal defense with no means to Dekunda and you'll be taking a heavy beating from Demifiend's attacks.

The summon you drain of MP is Pixie (all she does is spam a weaksauce Megidolaon), which requires surviving a Gaea Rage to even get to. That alone is around a 50/50 chance (You need to be hit with Dormina, which is hard because you need high stats to avoid getting spammed into oblivion).

Even then, it takes Pixie 1 turn less than her Recarmdra turn to run out of MP when casting Megidolaon. This means she still has enough MP left for 3 Dekundas before running out of MP completely. If the Demifiend gets a single critical hit out of his six attempts, Pixie gets that extra turn and suicides herself. Even with Null Critical, the chances of him getting a critical each attack are high (somewhere between 50 and 75%). Your only hope is that if he ever does get a critical, someone else dodges his attack (Probably a 30-50% chance if he's hit with one Debilitate and you have one Sukukaja up).

All a perfect strategy does is minimize the amount of luck needed to beat him. No matter the strategy, luck will always be the biggest determining factor of whether you beat him or not.

Pyro

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2009, 05:43:37 AM »
Oh, so it just sucks and is stupid no matter what. Got it.

InfinityDragon

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2009, 08:19:47 AM »
Quote
Oh, so it just sucks and is stupid no matter what. Got it.

Yeah, that sums it up. Its a 40 minute fight you have a 20-30% chance of winning. So fun.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2009, 04:26:35 PM »
More thoughts on Bluelikes, since SMT came up. The leads from SMT1 and 2 have unique commands which allow them to summon demons that other human PCs don't get. They can both carry up to 12 demons and can have 5 summoned at a time. If they start a battle alone, it takes up a turn each time they summon a demon. Since these are unique commands, it seems entirely legal to allow it to them. They're also decently powerful PCs without the summoning (though their tricks are much more limited).

Along the same lines, Revya from Soul Nomad has unique summoning abilities, and if you allow this, she'd be a Bluelike like Marona. Revya can summon up to 8 squads of generic demons without taking up a turn. Marona can summon up to 14 phantoms, though these are limited by their turn limits.

Similarly, Zetta as the Sacred Tome from Makai Kingdom only has 1 ability - the ability to summon generic demon units, as well as vehicles and buildings. However, unlike generic units, buildings and vehicles are created by PCs, so they may not count as unique to Zetta, even though he's the one that actually summons them to battle. Zetta as the Sacred Tome is level 2000 and has a lot of durability, but if he takes even one attack, he's no longer able to summon units. Also, anytime he is hit, all of his currently-summoned units take the same amount of damage dealt. He always gets initiative, and he can summon his full army in his first turn, though if the enemy attacks him with any significant damage (or status effects), his whole army feels it, too. An interesting blitz technique to say the least, and a cool Bluelike idea.

And a cool one that was featured in the last Twink Tourney... Red from Pokemon GSC. Since Red has no attackable form himself, and relies solely on his pokemon for health/damage, he's a required Aeon Parade that can't be 'outsped' like Yuna, (but his team is much less dangerous than Yuna's Aeon Parade).

-Djinn, still on a mission to collect a list of interesting Bluelikes.

PurpleOutsider

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2009, 05:34:10 AM »
Bundt/Raspberry from Super Mario RPG, if you interpt them exactly as is in game, could be borderline bluelike. It takes a good twelve hits to get the candles out if you're fighting 1-on-1, it has an attack that halves life, and one that causes fear. Basically, unless its opponant can heal and has a lot of magic to use it, and can tank through the candle part, they have a very good chance of losing.

Monkeyfinger

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2009, 12:40:12 AM »
He would crash and burn in a bluelike tourney simply because a lot of voters do not take him that way.

Personally I scale down his candles to 2, because that gimmick can actually be expressed as typical durability... he has 6 HP, takes 1 damage from everything, and regens 1 HP per turn. Every other boss gets reduced HP, why not Bundt?

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2009, 04:59:35 AM »
Don't you take healing as a percentage of the total unchanged from in-game, though? That'd make Bundt gain 1/3 of an HP/candle per turn. Unless you round up, I suppose.

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Monkeyfinger

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Re: Bluelike
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2009, 06:09:58 PM »
Things kind of get hard to handle when you go down to single digit figures, don't they?