Season 49, Week 2

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9)
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS)
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3)
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS)

Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1)
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5)
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3)
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3)

Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC)
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8)
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9)
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF)

Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7)
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2)
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC)
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3)

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9)- PC Beatrix OHKOs very easily with Holy
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS)- Gut of Cecilia having nastier stuff on turn 1, and maybe also being faster, IIRC.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3)- I guess...
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS)- Well, I guess Seymour can switch his support to me, yeah...Doesn't like Heat's ability to mess with his elemental damage type though.

Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1)- Don't want to think too hard/Lucian hitting a weakness doesn't help much.
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5)- Unsure when I'd see Zeno's limit kicking in.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3)
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3)- Confusion with 50% of making the enemy hit either themselves or you=I will side with the enemy hitting you first turn. Angela only needs one hit.

Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC)
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8)
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9)- Can drop some Mdef to get another point of speed, putting her above average.
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF)- MT attack until he's has the shot with hit with the OHKO smash damage.

Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7)
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2)
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC)
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3)

[Taishyr]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - Unless Beatrix had something really shiny?
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3) - Uh huh.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS) - How far away was Lightning?

Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1)
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5)
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - uh
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3) - Gut says Poo can't win in time.


Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7) - 'k.
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2) - Taya had lightning... or was that just the main?

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - Unless Beatrix had something really shiny?

Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2) - Taya had lightning... or was that just the main?

PC Beatrix's Holy does 1.4 PC HP damage when she leaves (5k when most of the cast is sub 1k!)

Taya doesn't have Lightning, but even by the 3x you go by, Taya can probably heal lock with any spell (And her cheapest is...8 MP, so 7 uses of that+Atlas 1 before she runs out of MP). Granted, then the most comes down to if she can double in time, although since gets an extra turn when she does nothing since Yukari cant' OHKO (Two if Yukari can't 2HKO!).

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Godlike:

Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - The kind of temp scaling that massively inflates their worth Laike-style -always- leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Beatrix OHKO hype is no.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS) - Kneejerk is Ceci is faster. This completely murders KOS-MOS.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3) - I allow Lavos to summon the other parts, much like I allow Heat to summon the damned tentacles. So, um. Yeah.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS) - Goes first, quite possibly 2HKOs and may well not need to. Seymour really hates getting walled elementally.

Heavy:

Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - Nel doesn't get 2HKOed and may well 2HKO, and has tons of healing. She even blocks Fayt's paralysis, and Fayt might end up -not- immuning Nel's Freeze to boot.
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3) - Angela isn't even status-vulnerable while charging, and Poo's status are crappy. That's more or less that.

Middle:

Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8) - uh
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF) - Hm. That strategy probably actually works. He may have issues hitting Florina, but she gets 2HKOed and I don't think she two-turns Mags with an Iron Sword.

Light:

Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7) - Fries.
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2) - *OHKO.*
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC) - ALENIA.
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3) - Eh.

[superaielman]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9)- Any average that has a temp like Beatrix OHKO in an FF9 stat spread seems utterly insane to me.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS)
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3)- I think he 3HKOs and lives to see that. Huh.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS)

Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1)- Delusion+Protect. Saturos is fairly quick and decent on HP.
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5)- I 'm really kneejerking this as a close fight. Probably will vote Kevin. He needs basically most of the calls in his favor (2HKOing, not getting parried) but I see him getting those. More to the point I'm not ever really going to give BoF5 bosses close calls in fights thanks to Wyrm existing.


Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC)- Can't vote, death to Lucia.
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8)

Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7)- Probably Cleo.
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC)
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3)- Neither fight deserve commentary.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9): Isn't OHKOed. See Snow.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS): Cecilia doesn't get to go first often in Godlike, and doesn't have to here to boot.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3): Still not sure how I view Lavos, but I doubt it's in a way that would cost him this.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS): Gelid Torrent + Inferno Roar comes pretty close to taking Seymour out before he gets a turn. So even if you give Seymour control of his shifting, it doesn't matter.

Heavy:
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5): Zeno tends to smash when not spoiled.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3): Pretty amusing. Actually Fayt being faster makes it a bit interesting, but he doesn't 2HKO, neither statuses, and Nel probably does 2HKO (and heals if she doesn't).

Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC): Lucia is Light.
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8): I... guess? Unless I decide to see Caellach above-PC durability. Nah, can't justify that.
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9): Will look into this later. Dhyer, is Eiko still above average with everyone twinking comparably for speed? (I'm kinda doubting it, but if you know offhand...)
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF): His special moves get a big accuracy boost against flyers, which sinks Florina here.

Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7): Things Cleo doesn't need a Fire Rune for.
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC): Things Kid doesn't need techs for.
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3): Things Peco doesn't need his skillset for.

[Dhyerwolf]

Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - The kind of temp scaling that massively inflates their worth Laike-style -always- leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Beatrix OHKO hype is no.

How would this be inflating her worth? Holy is a massive time bomb during the only time in the party, and she basically OHKOs whenever you see her in the party.  Saying Beatrix OHKOs feels a lot more like what actually happens in game instead of saying her damage is kind of average and middling. By this theory, Miranda and Alonso should be straight up punies.

[Dhyerwolf]

Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9): Will look into this later. Dhyer, is Eiko still above average with everyone twinking comparably for speed? (I'm kinda doubting it, but if you know offhand...)

No, she isn't.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - The kind of temp scaling that massively inflates their worth Laike-style -always- leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Beatrix OHKO hype is no.

How would this be inflating her worth? Holy is a massive time bomb during the only time in the party, and she basically OHKOs whenever you see her in the party. 

It's incredibly unfair to the rest of the PC cast, and way too convenient for temps. Yay, she's overpowered due to an entirely situation-based scenario that doesn't keep up as the game advances, and, as a PC, she wouldn't be able to enjoy it were she to stay as a permanent PC due to the rest of the cast catching up. Beatrix with endgame levels and equips scaled against an endgame party (which is how I tend to take temps as a whole) wouldn't have this. By that logic, you may as well take Rune as his overlevelled earlygame temp form.

[Dhyerwolf]

On the other hand, who is to say that if she was purposefully given a final form that it would be perfectly in-line with how her temp form scaled up exactly? She's not in the game as it advances, so it can't be said how she would then formulate out towards the endgame. Rune is specifically designed to be intregrated into an endgame party, but Beatrix is not.

I also don't see how it's unfair to the rest of the PC cast, since she isn't there when they are taken in the DL.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

It is unfair to them to cherry-pick a temp's appearance at her absolute best - especially when it's not his/her only one. Beatrix is a fine example of that - while all of the other PCs are forced to their endgame averages. Once again, the Rune corollary applies, he'd kill for that scaling, and plenty of other PCs would like to be scaled against different points in a single game. Why the temps get that privilege while full-fledged PCs can't? It's just a part of the whole thing about temp PCs being scaling nightmares.

[Pyro]

It's incredibly unfair to the rest of the PC cast, and way too convenient for temps. Yay, she's overpowered due to an entirely situation-based scenario that doesn't keep up as the game advances, and, as a PC, she wouldn't be able to enjoy it were she to stay as a permanent PC due to the rest of the cast catching up. Beatrix with endgame levels and equips scaled against an endgame party (which is how I tend to take temps as a whole) wouldn't have this. By that logic, you may as well take Rune as his overlevelled earlygame temp form.

Taking temps to some imaginary situation where they live/stay in the party to be an endgame PC doesn't strike you as twisting the actual game? I mean, if I said "Belial's damage sucks at endgame" but scaled temps to the time they leave I would expect to be called out for it. As far as "Cherry picking" goes, I hear no such accusations against people who hype earlier forms of bosses that are better than their last/later appearances. Ultros comes to mind, and so does Jeremy. (I would take the last temp appearance in most cases, with possible exceptions like Asch where the temp appearance is a remote sidequest where it is tossed in)

Scaling temps to the time they leave is no different from scaling bosses to the time they are fought. As far as damage caps go? A midgame SO2 boss who overkilled by 3x (you can stop laughing) would be taken as such, and most anyone who went "But endgame bosses can only do 1.1x overkill or so!" would be ignored by the majority. Same philosophy applies for Dhyer and myself. You are free to have a different opinion but nothing you say is going to make it objectively right. Bear in mind that the view you are espousing is the one that is the one that is essentially creating an imaginary PC that is present at endgame. Also see Dhyer's comments on Miranda/Alonso.

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9): Still thinking. Ryu couldn't get any Holy Resist? That surprises me. Also: *IS* Dhyer hyping something other than the last temp appearance here?
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS): Prison I guess.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3): Any match with Lavos is a headache, but I'll just nod smile and move along.

Heavy:
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5): A good shot of OHKOing damage or whatever should do it.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3): Has healing.
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3): Poo's chance of winning through status is 40%. Angela's is 60%

Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC): Lucia is ranged so the boss form is screwed. PC form... Oh for the love of... I think her PC form wins. Ah screw it. I'm going to get a drink.
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8): CORNELLLL BUSSSSTTEEERRR.
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9): Eiko isn't 2HKO'd by Volke regardless so just smites his horrible Res with Mini and Holy's him into oblivion? Dunno about speed, but I guess that should work.

Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7)
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2): Does Taya OHKO here? Might have had Lightning damage? One or the other should work, I'll look later.
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC): It is Alenia.
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3): Peco looks like a god here.

[Yakumo]

The temps get that because there's no real way to be sure what they would be like in an endgame party, since they're not there and all.  I'm not sure what you're talking about with cherry picking their best appearance, either; I was under the impression that most people, like me, take their last appearance if there's more than one.  Though I could be wrong on that.

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9): Still thinking. Ryu couldn't get any Holy Resist? That surprises me. Also: *IS* Dhyer hyping something other than the last temp appearance here?

I'd definetely feel the fool if I hadn't, but  Eiko/Amarant being in the damage average tells me I don't have to worry and that I'm going by the last form. Also makes sense as I don't think you could change her equips in the first form (And she may not have even had Holy? Not sure on that one though).

[Ultradude]

Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS): Ceci going first.

Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1): Er... gogo Heat Flash hype! (totally can't vote)

Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3): Blahblah healing is awesome.

Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9): Mini I guess? Volke takes like... ten attacks to land Lethality.

Oh, and tossing in that I'm on the "lol Beatrix smash" side of interp.

[Rozalia]

Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS): Gelid Torrent + Inferno Roar comes pretty close to taking Seymour out before he gets a turn. So even if you give Seymour control of his shifting, it doesn't matter.

Inferno Roar can't be used if both arms are up so how does this Gelid Torrent + Inferno Roar actually happen exactly.

How does Heat work exactly. Can he uses his Mt moves for both his actions? Can his support use sweep twice?
And lastly his actions are two + one for each of the support he has right?

[Monkeyfinger]

Happens as soon as the tentacles are down. Which is from turn 1 to some people, either due to not allowing him to start with them (because no other boss gets to start with support) or due to not allowing them at all.

Main body can use MT stuff twice. Sweep doesn't matter, he doesn't want that here. The ST tentacle physicals are stronger and can target the mortiphasms.

[Clear Tranquil]

Beatrix is still pretty good even when you've built up Steiner at the point where you have to go through Alexandria with them so yeah. Then again Ryus are always pretty evil. Hmm.

Godlike -

Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS)

Heavy:

Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) I'm tempted to vote for Fayt on Side Kick invincibility cheese but everyone apart from Soppy would probably burn me so. Healing vs no healing! O wait Fayt could use long O to launch Nel and do his juggly thing with Divine Bla ... *is shot*


Middle:
 
Can't vote ;_; *waves Eiko flag*

Light:

Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC) - Die in the fiery pits of hell. Dislike these characters so *much* >.>

[Bardiche]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - Someone put Beatrix in his party by some cheatcode, and she pretty roughly owned at the end-game as well with consistent 9,999 damage with Climhazzard, so I'm satisfied enough with her damage hype.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3)

Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1) - But then, I have little respect for VP.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - Healing, I suppose.

Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC) - Oh Lucia what did I do to you? ;_;

Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7)
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC)
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3) - Muku tries anything, Peco probably counters him. Or just heals it straight up. Or sleeps him. Or uh, yeah, this is... Lol. Peco for champion!

[Taishyr]

Oh, so it entirely depends on temp issues? Fuck, abstaining on that match, then. I can't be bothered thinking about how I see temps again.

[James_xeno]

Am I correct in remembering Fire Emblem weaknesses to = 2x damage?
If so then Ena is in a lot of trouble.

----

Also.. I'm with Dhyer, Cryo and the others on the temp Beatrix issue.

[Unoriginal]

It was some multiplier to the weapon in question's power(x3, I think), with Str/Mag added in after.  Don't think it matters here though, as I remember Lucia's spells being non-elemental in spite of the animations (EB:C, at least).  It's been a while though.

[Dark Holy Elf]

x2 in FE9, actually.

And even with a modest power boost, Lucia's damage still fails miserably.

But then, I have little respect for VP.

What on earth does that mean? I'm trying to read this in a way that doesn't just make you sound biased against a cast as a whole, and wondering if there's an interp that leads to this, and I can't think of one that makes sense here. Oh, yes, you could do something like ban energy storage, which certainly hurts most of the cast... but helps Lucian.

[James_xeno]

It was some multiplier to the weapon in question's power(x3, I think), with Str/Mag added in after.  Don't think it matters here though, as I remember Luca's spells being non-elemental in spite of the animations (EB:C, at least).  It's been a while though.

Lightning Bomb and Thunder Blow are electric, at least that's how they always seemed to work in-game and what their description says. Plasma Rain, Napalm Shot and one or two of the others may be non-elemental though.

Electric and Infinite Heal Litany-70%MHP (not to mention Magic Barrier) seals things here for Ena.


EDIT: Dark Holy Elf

Bad maybe, but Hardly miserable. It's not even end game worst kind of bad. Plus, we're talking about near double that with the bonus. Almost getting close to Jean level damage.


EDIT 2:

You know, I was looking things over real quick and realized that with Heal Litany, Lucia may outlast Ena even without the damage bonus. I'll have to look into it a little better to be sure. I don't have the time right now. about to walk out the door.