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Author Topic: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!  (Read 7501 times)

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2009, 01:44:21 AM »
MMXCM/MK
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Mad Fnorder

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2009, 01:50:54 AM »
Mana Khemia and MMX Command Mission.

Nephrite

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2009, 02:27:35 AM »
I guess I'll say

Mana Khemia since it means I have to play it
Naesala since he may actually get in.

SnowFire

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2009, 05:51:27 AM »
Votes: XS3 (FW Allen only?) and FW FF12 Larsa.  Still sticking to them though it seems like neither have a chance.  More generally, I'd be in favor of ranking a ton of FWs, especially ones for next-gen systems so that the DL isn't just digging up stale older titles - rank Tales of Vesperia Yuri and the like.  I'd also be in favor of mining some of NR's stars since NR isn't coming back, so Radiata Stories Jack, La Pucelle Prier, etc.

Mana Khemia and WA5 seem basically fine.  I'd be very hesitant about Mega Man X: Command Mission, though, as I'm not sure I've ever seen it in a shop or ever heard about it anywhere except on this site.  Probably best for only a FW nod.

I'm in favor of eventual Naesala ranking, as well, though ideally as his FE10 form.  In fact, fitting in with the whole more FWs idea above, I for one would strongly prefer that he be ranked as "Fire Emblem: Radiance" or the like, since his forms in FE9 have issues (an ubergodlike & a split path), and explicitly allowing FE10 would be a way to allow people who've played Radiant Dawn to vote on that game's form with a clean conscience while neatly sidestepping the form legality issue.

Talaysen

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2009, 08:53:08 AM »
Votes: XS3 (FW Allen only?) and FW FF12 Larsa.

Larsa's actually a bad idea for a number of reasons.

1) Temp.
2) PC interp psyduckery (matters because if you scale temps to DL-legal PCs )don't see why you wouldn't...), you STILL have to figure out how you see DL-legal for FF12 PCs).
3) AI issues.  (Hold him to them or not?  Stat topic doesn't even list them for some reason, which doesn't help.)

Not a very good rank and especially not a good idea as the only representative of the game.

In fact, fitting in with the whole more FWs idea above, I for one would strongly prefer that he be ranked as "Fire Emblem: Radiance" or the like, since his forms in FE9 have issues (an ubergodlike & a split path), and explicitly allowing FE10 would be a way to allow people who've played Radiant Dawn to vote on that game's form with a clean conscience while neatly sidestepping the form legality issue.

Naesala's FE9 form isn't an ubergodlike.  His FE10 form is better.

And as far as I'm concerned, if we rank Naesala I'm allowing the FE10 form anyways.  But that's neither here nor there.

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2009, 09:09:16 AM »
Naesala has that boss form in C14 or whatever.  Since it's nearly a dead-ringer for his Athos-esque PC form... yeah.  But it's also not the chapter boss and clearly designed as something to run screaming from in-game until he leaves, so I tend to think most people will rightly ignore it.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2009, 02:58:46 PM »
In addition to what Tal said, I'd bet good money that FF12 would be a worse draw than anything seriously up for ranking this time.

FF12 is another FFX-2 (it has sales! And isn't liked/played in general 'round these parts). Only less-suited to the DL. Oh boy.

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OblivionKnight

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2009, 03:06:59 PM »
But...but...Godlike Balthier hype with BASIC PHYSICAL ATTACK!?  IT'S LIKE THE SECOND COMING OF RAQUEL!!!!
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

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Meeplelard

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2009, 11:45:53 PM »
Noting I changed my vote from MMXCM to FW Naesala, just so its easier to tally and such.
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SnowFire

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2009, 12:09:22 AM »
Mm.  Well I already noted that Larsa isn't happening this season, and it's entirely valid to say that there are currently better ranks.  Since people want to bring it up, let me explain why Larsa is still a good rank.  FF12, much as it got a...  mixed reception, was still a pretty major release.  The FF series is probably easily the best played series in the DL.  It would just seem strange to not have a representation of it here.  It's hard to say about FF12 drawing in general, but the same is true of a lot of possible ranks.  It's a single FW nom, so the costs of not drawing well are not nearly as bad.  Anyway, the mechanics mean that the PC cast is basically out, like FF5.  That leaves the temps as having unique abilities and stats and the bosses.  However the bosses translate to the DL really badly, so it is just the temps after all.  This leaves...  Larsa and Reddas.  Reddas is kind of boring and gets hit hard by late-game FF12 interpretation.  So...  Larsa.  Luckily Larsa actually has plot and a personality (more than Penelo!  About as much as Fran!), so he fits the bill pretty well as an FW rep of the game.  And despite Tal's concerns, I'd say he translate to the DL pretty simply - he's a low-damage item-based healer with an infinite sack.  There ya go.  (Maybe not the most INTERESTING dueler ever, but quite easy to interpret.)

Reponding to Tal's concerns:
Larsa's AI issues are annoying but mostly irrelevant.  His Gambits are to attack at high health, toss a Hi-potion at low health (I want to say 40% HP?), and toss an X-Potion at critical health (So his healing is basically always full).  In Light this is generally exactly what he wants to do.  Admittedly there will be rare times where a "smart" Larsa would fight differently than a dumb one- say, a slow and frail opponent who Larsa 2HKOs, but 2HKOs Larsa back with their attack, and has a low probability of some kind of fatal status attached to the attack (AI Larsa will waste time healing their damage and eventually be statused when he could have just attacked for the kill).  This is a downside, but hardly a fatal one.

As for scaling, I think we can just do the sane thing and scale him against what an average party would have.  Nobody who's not playing challenge games would fail to get licenses for things like storebought weapons and armor available when he leaves.  This would be a bigger problem for Reddas thanks to extremely broken and potentially universal equipment like the Bubble Belt, but not really for Larsa.  I guess you can haggle over how much HP Larsa has depending on whether you see everyone in Light Armor and the legality / average of HP+ augments, but it's not the end of the world if one person sees Larsa at .95 PCHP and another at .80 PCHP.

Talaysen

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2009, 04:24:47 AM »
As for scaling, I think we can just do the sane thing and scale him against what an average party would have.  Nobody who's not playing challenge games would fail to get licenses for things like storebought weapons and armor available when he leaves.  This would be a bigger problem for Reddas thanks to extremely broken and potentially universal equipment like the Bubble Belt, but not really for Larsa.  I guess you can haggle over how much HP Larsa has depending on whether you see everyone in Light Armor and the legality / average of HP+ augments, but it's not the end of the world if one person sees Larsa at .95 PCHP and another at .80 PCHP.

Arguably, only the DL-legal things are the initial equipment, since everyone needs licenses to equip other things, and those are arguably illegal.  In this case, Larsa jumps up a LOT from it.  That's my whole point.  If you're scaling to DL-legal PCs, then you have to figure out what you SEE as DL-legal for PCs, and then there's always votesplit with people who DON'T scale to DL-legal PCs.

AI stuff: That's also a hindrance against people who deal between 50% and 60% of his HP in damage, since he gets 2HKOd but can't heal.  And also against people with crits.  And people who have an attack that does x% of his HP where x<60% and another attack that deals >=100-x% of his HP.  If he's faster, he could heal until a double if you don't hold to AI, but gets killed otherwise.

And the fact you're not even sure what his gambit limits are isn't helping his rankability here...

Lady Ashe

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Re: Season 49/50 Rankings: Preliminary topic: Now open!
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2009, 04:57:43 AM »
MK and... MMXCM, I suppose. More interesting from what I hear, and at least in my experience, infinitely easier to find.