S49 Retirement Topic

[AndrewRogue]

Not a huge fan of booting in general, but since we're on the subject...

I really think looking at individual matches is a bad idea, or the DL is going to start developing a rotating policy. Most newer games are gonna have worse draws against most older games, because there are more players being introduced to new games then old games. More players for new games and less players for old games means those sort of matches are going to get awkward vote skewing sometimes. To that end, I really wouldn't put too much stock in an individual week unless the overall vote draw shows a decisive trend for the game doing poorly.

Frankly, if we're going to get to culling things, we might as well just get to culling things. Pick a cut-off line for acceptable vote draw and boot everything below that point unless it is brand new/has realistic growth potential. If some of the games being cut have big fans, then cut them down to a FW or two and send the rest of the cast on its merry way. If you intend to cut games that are going to do poorly, you ought to cut games that do poorly period. While I understand the desire for favoritism and internal support... well. Its generally irksome at some level to see something you like cut while other things that are performing worse remain. But, of course, this is a general call.

Which, of course, given my feelings above, leaves me with two realistic options. Either we need to conduct some sort of general site word survey and get the exact numbers for how many voters individual games actually have, or we need to use the overall votedraw to determine whether the game just had a particular bad pairing for some reason or if there is actually a tend indicating that its draw has decreased substantially.

So, yeah. Basically, I support if we intend to boot anything at this juncture, that we take a major analytical look at the whole thing and do it in a systematic manner.

[Cmdr_King]

Irenes, Leena, Poshul, and Mojo are not split path. Grobyc is optional and belongs in group 6 of Cmdr's list. Mel is not an obvious recruit and probably belongs in group 10. I would argue that Miki gets a bigger and more memorable plot scene (the concert with Nikki to wake the Black Dragon) than anyone in group 6.

Bad phrasing on my part.  Irenes went in with the "save kid" pathsplit people because you can technically miss her (don't try to help the Demihumans during the whole Zelbess arc), but if you follow normal RPG logic you won't, so I tend to assume your average RPG player did in fact recruit her.

Similarly, Mojo and Poshul are not technically pathsplit but can be missed permanently and are fairly obscure.  Leena is pathsplit (do or do not allow Kid to join after Serge's Grave), it's just that one side gives you two characters (Leena and, if you missed Home Poshul, Another Poshul.) while the other gives you Kid one dungeon early.

Grobyc does indeed join automatically.  When you're caught in Viper Manor, after his boss fight, he stops you during your escape and tells you that, because you beat him, he'll follow you.

I recall the game beating you to recruit Mel, and at the least triggering her join event automatically (though I do remember it being annoying to finish and you can miss her that way, yes).  I could be mistaken?  *researches* Ah.  After that event you have to go back and talk to her again.  Yeah, not terribly obscure as long as you opt into the event.

I always just remember Miki as "Nikki's random minion".  I suppose the fact that she's the co-star of the Radical Dreamers event could give her something?  That maybe puts her on par with Van and Orlha (who I tend to find memorable as "oh yeah, she has that boss form with ACTUAL EVADE") but still seems a bit less than other since she's hardly the star of that arc.

[Hunter Sopko]

No to all. Mrf booting. Mrf it hardcore.

[Yakumo]

You know, responses like that piss me off.  Why no?  Why do you want to keep something like SF2, that has horrible draws and gets robbed when any of them get in?  What reason do you have to say no to booting something that we almost certainly wouldn't have ranked if it came in after we got anything resembling quality control?

I'm really tempted to just throw in a boot everything vote to offset this but I'll look at it in more detail later.

[superaielman]

Getting solid feedback from most voters is not going to happen. Most of the talkative voters are on the forums already.

Drawing isn't absolutely everything (See Dario), but it's a big part of it. AtL4/BG/Shining Force have been constantly not good for more a season or a match, it's going on 30-40 seasons for AtL/ShF of them being bad to terrible in every single regard.

[Meeplelard]

Keep everyone from Chrono Cross, first of all.  Yeah, ok, FE7 doesn't have everyone ranked but...well, someone is already ranked and drawing well enough to justify staying, why boot them?  CC doesn't have any real problems other than potential blandness for duelers, so yeah.  Now, I WOULD be against ranking some of these duelers (true Path splits barring Glenn, whose both popular and genuinely interesting, for example) if CC were to be ranked NOW, but as it stands, I think CC is fine the way it is.

Boot AtL4.  Bebedora should have died a while back but like 2 vague "keep her in" statements that were more asides than actual true requests let her barely break the threshold which *punts*  Darc has done spectacularly horrible, thus should go.  Kharg...I can see keeping him alone, but eh, letting AtL4 stay in at all at this point feels stretching it, and if nothing else, it rids the Big Owl arguments entirely.  So yeah, definitely yes to Darc and Bebedora, and merely "Strong support" for retiring Kharg <_<

Shining Force feels like they just exist as filler at this point.  They really add very little, and their vote draw doesn't justify keeping them in, especially for a cast that big.  CC, Suikos and FEs all typically draw well so them being in with large casts is fine, Shining Force doesn't have this excuse.  I could see keeping very few characters like Max, Bowie and a few other popular ones like Peter, Slade, Jogurt, etc.

(for the record, I think we should seriously keep Jogurt in regardless of how ShF is voted.  We need to keep the definition of Puny in, no >.>?)

PS1...eh, don't care, guess they can go.  They don't contribute much nor really harm anyone at the same time, so I really don't care.

PS2...punt all but Rolf.  Its really a worthless cast with a bad draw, but Rolf is at least interesting, and pretty much more memorable than the entire PS2 cast combined, so that has to be worth SOMETHING.

BGs...get rid of them.  BG was originally ranked to test something, and its long since past that stage, it really needs to go as a result.

[Niu]

First, don't boot CC.

Boot BGs.
Boot PS2 except Rolf.

And don't care on everything else.

[Tonfa]

I was bouncing around a post about some of those games myself. Did ToD/Lufia 1/LoL1 end up that much stronger in practice than the rest?

Not much, they're in the 47-48% range. I'd have to think about those if they got nominated for booting, but I'm not going to suggest kicking them out.

PS2 is at the 49 range...PS1's only match is against PS4, and only a 55 at that?! Good grief.

SFs draw above 50% on average, for the record.

Changing vote to include Boot PS1.

[Taishyr]

I'd be a lot more worried about votedraw if we still had B8 in attendance. As is, I'm not really in the mood to object to seeing stuff booted/retired/whatever, but I would prefer to keep one or two FWs from most if feasible;

Abstain on AtL4. I'd pick out a FW except it sounds like all three have issues.
Keep Imoen/Minsc, abstain on the rest of BGs;
Keep Alis, abstain on the rest of PS1;
Keep Rolf, abstain on the rest of PS2;
Keep Max/Jogurt, abstain on the rest of SF1;
Keep Bowie/Slade/Peter/Odd Eye, abstain on the rest of SF2.

Imoen and the one person even I clearly remember from my short time playing the BGs series, Mains from PS1/2, Max and the Frue Power from SF1, Bowie, one of the more notable gameplay characters with some plot tie-in for those who like that, and one of the most often forced AI-PC members of the team, with Odd Eye as the boss rep.

[OblivionKnight]

Random list of people I'd suggest to keep from ShF1 and ShF2:

All of them!

...ok, seriously...

ShF1:

Max
Ramladu
Kane
Mae
Anri
Mishaela
Tao
Lowe
Jogurt

There people are plot important, initial joins, or Jogurt.  Forced joins otherwise:

Bleu
Zylo
Balbaroy
Alef

Other neat people to keep:

Domingo

And...I'd not be adverse to seeing the others leave (well, I wouldn't fight them), but these above I think are decent enough to keep.  We lose the failure of GONG, GORT, and GUNTZ (oh noes the g's!), but...eh. 

ShF2:

Odd Eye
Geshp
Zeon
Galam
Cameela
Lemon
Bowie
Peter
Zalbard
Slade

Plot people are above.  Forced joins are below:

Gerhalt
Jaha
Sarah
Kazin
Chester
Luke
Elric
Rohde

And others:

Sheela
Zynk
Taya
Chaz
May
Kiwi

I would...definitely keep at least the plot people and forced joins.  I could see kicking the others, though they are oddly the more interesting ones >_> (May is the best archer, Sheela may be the only MMNK in the game, Taya the 2nd best Sorc, etc.).  Oh well.

[DjinnAndTonic]

ShF1:

Max
Ramladu
Kane
Mae
Anri
Mishaela
Tao
Lowe
Jogurt

There people are plot important, initial joins, or Jogurt.  Forced joins otherwise:

Bleu
Zylo
Balbaroy
Alef

Other neat people to keep:

Domingo

OK has convinced me that keeping a small representation of ShF is okay. This covers all the plot important people and the majority of the classes from both ShF1 and 2. The strikethrough ones I'm for booting, along with the rest of ShF1. I don't know why Darksol isn't on OK's list, but he's worth keeping to me.

ShF2 bosses still aren't memorable, so I can't bring myself to support them (I couldn't even support Kane of ShF1 and that has better draw). But go ahead and add Slade and Lemon to my Keep list. Plot importance and relatively unique is in their favor.

ShF2:
Keep Bowie, Peter, Slade, Lemon, Sarah, OddEye
Boot the rest.

[Sierra]

OK has convinced me that keeping a small representation of ShF is okay. This covers all the plot important people and the majority of the classes from both ShF1 and 2. The strikethrough ones I'm for booting, along with the rest of ShF1.

I'm forced to ask: why bother keeping these ShF1 folks if they can't buy a freaking win? "Interesting dueller" or no, "representative of the cast" or not, what's the point in having them around if we know they're just going to lose during eliminations and then vanish for another twenty seasons? I just took a look at the cast's record: the only dueller from the game that's achieved more than one victory is Ramladu. If someone like Tao (who I at least think is a decent Light) can't eke out a win against Rozalin despite heavy board support, then what do the PCs actually bring to the DL? They let crappy fighters get wins they probably shouldn't get, and add nothing to the site (why keep someone who's almost guaranteed to lose whether they deserve to or not?) This is apathy-inducing at best. (Jogurt is obviously an exception since he is the epitome of failure.)

No comment on your ShF2 picks as they seem fairly reasonable to me.

[James_xeno]

ATL 4 - Keep

Baldur's Gate - Boot

Phantasy Star 1 - Keep

Phantasy Star 2 - Keep

Shining Force 1 - Boot

Shining Force 2 - Boot

Barbarossa (Suikoden) - Boot

[Dark Holy Elf]

Regarding Shining Force, I'd certainly be opposed to booting them utterly. They don't draw that badly, and it's an important game, something I feel does have some relevance in a game being ranked. It's the first SRPG many older gamers will have played, the first one seen in North America, and one of the more notable Genesis games. It's still widely available through a gaggle of ports (Virtual Console, various Sega Classics packages), emulation, and in the case of SF1, a remake. The games aren't too highly thought of any more so I have no illusion that a playership spike is going to occur. Characters being robbed is bad, but hardly the end of the world (with a low-drawing game I'd be more concerned about it being the one doing the robbing, though fortunately this is less common), and I'd also use caution about "robs" anyway as some of them can be explained by differing interpretations, etc, or just not respecting a certain aspect of that character (Kazin's loss to Titania is reasonable if you had no luck with Desoul, Tao has SF1R form which loses to most things, poor thing, and if you don't see Taya OHKOing she had a lot of trouble with Yukari).

Now, that said, I am certainly for trimming these types of games - they should not be getting more characters in per season than something like Chrono Trigger, and the only way to ensure that is to tighten the roster - shedding "why the fuck is she ranked?" characters like May, Zynk, Gong, etc. is fine to me. I really don't mind where the line is drawn, but I'll be pretty strongly opposed to booting the very core of either game.

Similarly, the Phantasy Stars. Everything I just said applies, except they are ALREADY trimmed down, being small casts, so I don't see why we're going after them. I am struggling to think of a reason to boot them and spare Tales of Eternia, which draws worse, is notably LESS available, and less significant as representation (just another PSX RPG vs. one of the few available for the Master System/Genesis...). You can throw Brigandine in there too - yes it has some fans, but it's also notably worse even than ToE on draw.

Reading Sage's post reminds me that, at the very least, I'm totally for booting Rassius. Not the kind of thing our third worst draw needs.

[alanna82]

Tao has formsplit though. Remake form loses to Rozalyn. (at least I voted for Rozalyn. Tao's remake form is awful. I also have more Rozy respect than most do here.) I dont see a robbing going on there. I voted to boot her more because of massive formsplit from the remake, not because of vote draw.

SF2 is definitly being Robbed though.

Arc 4 and Baldurs gate as far as I know are not being robbed that much. (I think Chisato deserved to beat Imoen, and I saw debate in Darc vs Akihiko in the stat topic. Kharg was not robbed. Neither was Bebedora. )

For me its not vote draw nesscessarily. (low vote draw shows people are following the rules that they only vote if they know both) its more robbing than anything that I boot.

[superaielman]

Echoing Cid in general here.

I don't think anyone's argued for tossing everyone from the SF series. But can you see a reasonable case for keeping anyone besides Max/Jogurt from SF1? Maybe Ramladu (He of the massive formsplit) and Darksol (Darksol), but the rest I can't see keeping.  Domingo maybe, but he's always failed to do much in the DL proper.

ShF2:
Keep Bowie, Peter, Slade, Lemon, Sarah, OddEye

Lemon I'd kick to the curb as well. The non godlikes aren't generating much interest or noms (In fairness to Peter he was in FIT forever, so he just had bad luck getting in) and he has formsplit issues.

Oh yeah, a boot on fire to Ras. Boot Shizel as well.

[DjinnAndTonic]

OK has convinced me that keeping a small representation of ShF is okay. This covers all the plot important people and the majority of the classes from both ShF1 and 2. The strikethrough ones I'm for booting, along with the rest of ShF1.

I'm forced to ask: why bother keeping these ShF1 folks if they can't buy a freaking win?

Because my primary concern with large casts isn't that they exist, but that they're overrepresented. And more importantly, if games like this were ranked with quality control in place, these are the characters I think would have the best chance of getting in.

Individual reasons:
Max - Main, strong support.
Ramladu - Decently memorable boss, best performance history.
Kane - No. Boot.
Mae - Has some plot. Would be the sole representative of her class for 2 games, and the only centaur in the DL. Enough people remember how the centaur class works that having one in wouldn't be detrimental.
Anri - Closest thing to a female lead, decently powerful.
Mishaela - Most memorable boss to me.
Tao - I just like her, though not exactly strong support here.
Lowe - First PC you meet, sole representative of his class for both ShF games, and only halfling in the DL.
Jogurt -Godlike, strong support.

These people are plot important, initial joins, or Jogurt.  Forced joins otherwise:

Bleu - Light needs more Dragons. Massively important to the plot somehow.
Zylo - Nah, I like him, but boot.
Balbaroy - I don't particularly like him, but he would be the sole representative of his class for both ShF games and the only Birdman in the DL. (Oh wait, he and Tibarn)
Alef - No, I didn't even remember she was forced.

Other neat people to keep:

Domingo - Just cool. Not exactly strong support, just some favoritism for duelling worth.
Darksol - Main villain? Middling support. I think he has a better chance in the DL than a lot of the other bosses and all of the PCs.

[Dhyerwolf]

The original post should now be updated with all the suggestions so far.

Thoughts on new stuff (That I'll put in my original post too!)

Brig- Keep. Quite decently liked within the DL, self-pandering and such.

CC- Well, I'm 100% down with booting Pip and Sprigg. Both are duelling headaches. Abstain on everyone else. I like elemental weaknesses, but there are so damn many of them! (Of course, if the weaknesses were 50%, I'd vote keep due solely to interesting ness).

Fire Emblem 7- Futile, but I'd boot based on Djinn's list.

ToE- Boot Rassius and Shizel! Rassius has already been gone over. Shizel has form split based on plot, and isn't liked. Abstain on the optionals, keep the main 4.

VP 1- Futile again, but I'll again agree with Djinn's list except keep Yumei.

Of course, I general find S2 to be more overranked than CC, FE 7, and VP 1, and to have blander fodder to boot!

Djinn, I'd note that some of the character you note for SF as having a better chance have already kind of failed.

[Ultradude]

Now that a game I know has come up, I'll comment.

I think the FE7 list sounds good enough, with the exception that I'd probably at least keep Dart. Only Berserker from the game, and the only good representative of the class. At least on the boards at GFAQs, he's well regarded as one of the most powerful units, if somewhat impractical to promote unless you toss him an Earth Seal. Plot isn't much, but he's also a forced recruitment, unlike lots of guys we're keeping, and he's plenty strong as a middle - doubles lots of people with high strength and a critical hit bonus and has lots of HP? Probably better than some FE characters in Heavy, IMO.

As far as standing out... aside from the aforementioned smashy smashy, he's also... a somewhat humorously cliche pirate with a few interesting lines.

I'd also like to keep Vaida and Legault for the involvement with Black Fang/Nergal. Legault's claim is vaguely not there, especially because he's one of three assassins. Vaida's boss form probably has better justification for ranking than Piastol and her ilk, IMO, and the PC form is pretty much an extra tank that's RNG-screwage-proof if you really need one.

Fanboyism says not to boot any FE7, but if anyone likes I could put together a list of what I'd trim if I had to drop some characters, based on the criteria we used for FE9. And if we do that, FE8 might deserve a look at (though not as much).

[Bardiche]

Suggested Games
Chrono Cross (Lesser used, less connected, later characters; Split-path characters; Pip and Sprigg)
- Keep. Well, you can cull some of the less... interesting ones. Glenn should probably be kept (I think a lot like him), as should Guile, Kid and Serge. Lynx and Harle, too, I suppose. Some bosses would be interesting, too.

Fire Emblem 7 (Lesser used, less connected, later characters)
- Keep all!

Barbarossa (Suikoden)
- Keep! I love this man.

Valkyrie Profile (Lesser Used, Less Connected, Later Characters)
- Keep Lenneth, Arngrim, Hrist, Silmeria, Alicia, Rufus, Odin, Freya, Loki. Boot the rest.

[Dhyerwolf]

Fanboyism says not to boot any FE7, but if anyone likes I could put together a list of what I'd trim if I had to drop some characters, based on the criteria we used for FE9. And if we do that, FE8 might deserve a look at (though not as much).

I'd like to see the list. I just kind of went with Djinn's because it was there, and I may not have the completely ability to remember myself (For example, if I had a choice, someone like Wil stands out as pointless to me, so yeah).

[DjinnAndTonic]

Fanboyism says not to boot any FE7, but if anyone likes I could put together a list of what I'd trim if I had to drop some characters, based on the criteria we used for FE9. And if we do that, FE8 might deserve a look at (though not as much).

I'd like to see the list. I just kind of went with Djinn's because it was there, and I may not have the completely ability to remember myself (For example, if I had a choice, someone like Wil stands out as pointless to me, so yeah).

I made my list partly based on who I thought had the least fans. To me, someone like Rebecca isn't a good rank as she has practically zero plot. But I know she has fans. And 'fan favorite' holds a lot of weight with FE. I'd be interested in seeing another list myself. One that doesn't take 'fan favorite' into account.

I didn't know Dart had fans, or I probably wouldn't have included him.

Agreed that FE8 could probably use a look, too, though it's not bad.

-Djinn

[Dhyerwolf]

Rolf (main, has history), Nei (memorable female lead), Josh Kain (only one with an interesting spoiler skillset vs. Robots),

His skillset works on very few things in the DL. One of the things it works on (Dragons)...he lost to. I'd certainly argue that Hugh, Rudo, and Amy are more interesting than him.

[DjinnAndTonic]

His skillset works on very few things in the DL. One of the things it works on (Dragons)...he lost to. I'd certainly argue that Hugh, Rudo, and Amy are more interesting than him.

Fair enough, but I personally find very specific spoiling  to be really interesting. Especially for a Light. He is definitely my favorite PS2 dueler. I think there's at least one other crazy Josh Kain fan running around the DL. Chime in, whoever you are.

Other stuff:

Brig: Keep. It rarely gets in, doesn't rob, small cast, and a few vocal hard core fans to keep it afloat. This is the perfect example of what an 'inoffensive' less popular ranking idea should be. I want ShF1/2 to resemble this. I'd argue that PS1/2 are already like this except that PS2 gets in fairly often. VH is sort of like this, only with less hard core fans.

ToE: Keep Ried, Keele, Meredy, Farah. Boot Rassius and Shizel. Abstain Chat and Fog.

Of course, I general find S2 to be more overranked than CC, FE 7, and VP 1, and to have blander fodder to boot!

If you made a list of trimmable characters for S1, S2, and -maybe- S3, I would be in support of some culling there.

-Djinn

[AndrewRogue]

Super: Talkativeness issues aside, would a one week hiatus or additional voting category for "What can you vote on?" be that hard or time consuming to deal with? I ask in all seriousness.