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Author Topic: S49 Retirement Topic  (Read 15497 times)

superaielman

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2009, 11:54:19 PM »
No. People just would not respond. We've tried that before and gotten nothing.
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Ultradude

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2009, 12:19:55 AM »
Alright, if I really had to cull FE7 down a bit... taking characters with either fans or substantial plot... listing anyone I'd consider, not necessarily who I'd vote to boot Because that would likely be no one.

First... bosswise, Nergal is an easy keep; Lundgren is the first halfway decent boss, and main villain of a story arc; Ursula sends even lesser minions after the party for a while, though beating her isn't necessary (Bolting makes her a major target though); Limstella is the closest I'd come to a boss boot, she doesn't stand out much, but she's a presence of some sort for the whole game, and another decent boss.

Legault - His plot is entirely based around sort of connections to more important characters like Nino and Jaffar, and he's probably the third choice for assassin since Matthew is both more present and a bit better stat wise, and Jaffar doesn't need a unique promotion item.

Fiora - Doesn't have her sister's plot connection, and while probably a little better in game isn't as popular or present. Still well used, only boot if we're feeling strict.

Heath - Plot isn't there at all, and while he has some fans, he's generally passed over for being underleveled and having a slow start.

Lowen - Not much plot, far less popular than Sain and Kent, and Marcus is far more noticeable.

Hawkeye - Lol plot, only stand out trait is being a prepromo Berserker with a unique sprite.

Vaida - Boss form is vaguely more noticeable than Piastol and her ilk, except without the plot or being a really cool fight, and being Nergal-powered. PC form is considered useful if you need another tank badly, but unimpressive. Fanboyism makes me want to keep her, but eh.

Wil - Vague Lyn's story plot, but the worst of the three of a much maligned class, and pretty boring to boot.

Bartre - No plot, FE7 Warriors lol. Has fans due to having some of the funnier support convos, at least.

Louise - A tad less plot than her hubby, but still a Sniper. Being vaguely interesting and funny makes her a little less popular than Rebecca.

Dorcas - Bartre, except with a very minor chapter dedicated to himself, in exchange for not having a personality. Also less used than Bartre by the FE7 'elite', such as they are.

Isadora - No plot. Noticeably worse than Marcus. Kinda boring. There are plenty of Paladins already.

Renault - While he is incredibly weak, and his story is difficult to uncover... he's got some interesting plot connections, and while rarely used is pretty well liked by the FE7 community. I'd probably keep him for that, though it's a slim justification.

If we were even more strict, I'd also toss in Priscilla, Erk, Rebecca and Rath, but despite top level opinion on any of their individual power, most first time players get a good bit of use out of them, and Rath has some vague plot connections.

Isadora is probably my favorite boot, and I wouldn't be bothered by Dorcas, Heath, and Hawkeye being dropped.
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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2009, 12:21:22 AM »
Boot Baulder's Gate. Horrible draw, and Imoen was a lucky finals.

Abstain on Shining Force 1 and 2.

Abstain on Phantasy Star 1 and 2.

Keep Brigandine, not GOD-AWFUL vote draw, and inside discussion keeps it afloat.

Keep Barbarossa. I don't buy the whole "it's not him" thing. The Sovereign Rune is a part of Barbarossa, even if it's only embedded in his sword, and it certainly looks as though he morphed willingly. Even if the True Rune went berserk, it must have transformed Barbarossa into the Hydra, seeing as Barbarossa is dying after the defeat of the Hydra.
Plot aside, I don't see him as that generally unrespectable as a boss.

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AndrewRogue

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2009, 02:16:25 AM »
Keep Brigandine, not GOD-AWFUL vote draw

Make whatever other arguments you like, but man. No. Brig has an even worse overall draw than the BGs, even with substantial internal support.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 02:20:44 AM by AndrewRogue »

Meeplelard

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2009, 03:22:24 AM »
I really don't see an argument for booting FE7ers.  Ok, yeah, there's a lot of them, but the game draws fine, and outside of "OH NO THERE ARE TOO MANY!"...oh come on, Suikos have more ranked than they do, and a lot of Suikoscrubs are even LESS interesting and have LESS of a reason to be ranked.  I'm not saying "Boot them!" (though, there are some I wouldn't be opposed to), just saying that there's really no objective reason to snipe at FE7.  The fact that people tried to get MORE ranked from this game (but failed) at one point should indicate that the game is fine how it is.

I wouldn't mind seeing ToE go, since the vote draw is just that bad; admittedly, booting ToE while keeping the others looks weird, but flipside, we still don't have ToL ranked (ToV is too new, etc. thus doesn't count), so that's not exactly a good point in its defense.

Brig...I dunno, it feels like it intuitively should stay, but I can't support it worth a damn, objectively.  I blame the NDF.
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superaielman

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2009, 03:24:40 AM »
I'd be fine with just showing Ras and Shizel the door. The PC's are inoffensive.
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2009, 03:30:09 AM »
If you made a list of trimmable characters for S1, S2, and -maybe- S3, I would be in support of some culling there.

This is the list I came up with
SUIKODEN 1
Yam Koo (Yep, only this one! Everyone else who might be on the list is forced or is one of the major enemies. You could also include Krin, who is kind of spit on decided being forced, and not necessarily memorable in his being forced. Kuromimi might only be forced for one fight, and Milia is forced rather later, but both of them seem fine to me).
 
SUIKODEN 2
Amada, Chaco, Gabocha, Gengen, Karen, Kinnison, Millie, Rikimaru, Shiro, Simone
(Chaco might be forced, but early a collection of scrubs with almost no plot. Mukumuku could also be included, but my gut reaction is that he has more fans somehow?).

SUIKODEN 3
Alanis, Belle, Gagdet Z, Kenji, Nei, Rody, Sanae, Toppo, Wan Fu
Some Plot but not much/dull: Gau, Reed, Shiba, Wilder
Similar but with Freeze or other notable stats: Dupa, Nicolas
(Left out people who I know have fanbases (aka Mel and Dogs). Otherwise the first part of the list is relatively plotless people who aren't that interesting. You could say Nei is interesting, but not for reasons that translate at all to the DL. The second group has minor plot, but often that plot is "Lackey to someone else or minor member of some group" and they also are bland. Third group is same as the second, minus that Dupa has Freeze and Nicolas has tanking, making them have other dimensions at least.)
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Sierra

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2009, 04:23:46 AM »
(Chaco might be forced, but early a collection of scrubs with almost no plot. Mukumuku could also be included, but my gut reaction is that he has more fans somehow?)

If we booted Mukumuku, Ciato would morph into the dread Mecha-Ogress and proceed to lay waste to all DLdom as we know it. While entertaining, I suspect this would ultimately be a bad thing.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2009, 04:48:23 AM »
She was probably who I was thinking of when I was thinking he had fan(s).
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Cmdr_King

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2009, 05:03:27 AM »
Hum.  I'm not big on killing off games for various reasons, but I've certainly done my share of lobbying for taking some of the crust off Suikoden II (Suikoden III... honestly something like 50 of that cast of 70 would be rankable anyway.  For simplicity and symmetry I'd rather rank the entire cast.  PS Rank Ruby!).  That said... seconding the following from Suikoden II:
Amada, Chaco, Gabocha, Gengen, Karen, Kinnison, Millie, Rikimaru, Simone

Omited from dhyer's list there is Shiro, who despite being scubby by endgame is a good character for a long segment of the game.  I think your average player will use him a while.  'sides, he's a wolf!  How cool's that!!!

Also supporting Rassius.  A competitive Middle boss losing in Light because half the voter base for ToE think's he's worse than Solt... yeah.  Between that and the vote draw he'll never win again, ever.  No need to keep him around to be subjected to that.
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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2009, 05:06:01 AM »
While I'm not too likely to support any Suiko trimmings (though tolerating a small few is possible), I will say that I particularly oppose Shiro being booted, ever. I'm not the only person who has had him as the freaking kill leader in a playthrough. See CK, basically.

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Hunter Sopko

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2009, 05:46:56 AM »
You know, responses like that piss me off.  Why no?  Why do you want to keep something like SF2, that has horrible draws and gets robbed when any of them get in?  What reason do you have to say no to booting something that we almost certainly wouldn't have ranked if it came in after we got anything resembling quality control?

I'm really tempted to just throw in a boot everything vote to offset this but I'll look at it in more detail later.

Well, in for a penny in for a pound. Anthill's already been kicked over I suppose. Not meant to be personal to you, Yakko or the rest of the DL, but I'm just gonna be honest here.

Because I don't think it's a necessary move. I'm tired of booting in general because I go out of my way to play games that have low vote/writer totals to boost things for the DL. To this effect, I've ended up devoting the first game I start every year to a randomly Hatbotted low vote drawer. Guess what it's been the last couple years? Persona 2. Arc the Lad 4. Each one booted in the middle of playing it. Thank god Vandal Hearts isn't on the cusp yet. I don't get to that many games a year, so it's a pretty big time investment I make on behalf of the DL. Why? A long time ago I was told that if I wanted to see games stay in I needed to play more, write more and get other people to play more. I'm tired of putting my money where my mouth is and still seeing games get booted.

I've always thought the allure of the DL was the "Hey, look how many games are represented! This is interesting!" and seeing how many different characters there were. Shrinking that pool never made sense to me, nor has the obsessive compulsion to having booting. In the name of what? Vote totals?

Vote totals, frankly, mean dick at this point, for two reasons. The first is that with the withdraw of Board 8, we know we're pretty much back to doing this for ourselves. And thats fine with me, honestly. We've also got mostly conjecture that booting helps vote totals at all. We had the same trends pretty much the whole time, with a pretty much bell curve where the Board 8 votes came and went. The vote totals have dropped, but it's not because people are being driven away by OMGPS1! The percentages are kind of misleading, because outside of and even including the Board 8 boom where things were kind of unpredictable, the slow growth never jumped or fell after a booting, and booting sure as hell had no effect on the influx of votes for Board 8. I've made this argument time and again, but I always get talked down to about stuff like VOTE TOTALS AND PERCENTAGES ARE SO MEANINGFUL! The only argument on this front thats mattered to me is that games tend to get robbed, but I guess I'd rather them be in and be robbed than have them not be in at all.

The second is, well, Brig would've been out a long time ago if it were vote totals. I'm tired of the hypocracy that always goes behind this. It's never objective, it's just the same old pet projects and playing favorites. I honestly don't expect it to be anything but that, but people always hide behind shit like vote totals. We're trying to run it like we're some sort of efficient business and not a mostly social site. Booting doesn't do shit except get people riled up, and that goes against the whole point of a social site. This is why I've just in general flat voted no boot with no argument the last two times there was a boot topic. It's the same argument over and over.

I also realize that yes, I'm contradicting my argument slightly in both that if the DL is more for us by us now, then it's fine for us to decide how it's run more than ever, and that I have a slightly joblike approach to how I choose the games I play in regards to the DL. But at this point, I'm laying my cards out on the table.

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2009, 06:05:16 AM »
It's a pipe dream, but... I vote boot to everyone on Ultradude's FE7 list. Legault, Fiora, Heath, Lowen, Vaida, Hawkeye, Wil, Louise, Dorcas, Isadora, Renault, *Priscilla, *Ursula. Abstain on Bartre due to his write up potential. (* minor additions to Ultra's list)

Erk is going to be the most accessible of the FE7 mages, so keep him. Rebecca and Rath are both marriage options for the mains, so I suppose they have some plot importance and are decent duelists. Keep. Keep the rest of the currently ranked options, too.

Dhyer's lists
S1: Boot Yam Koo.
S2: Boot Amada, Gabocha, Gengen, Karen, Kinnison, Millie, Rikimaru, Simone. Abstain Shiro. Keep Chaco, Mukumuku.
S3: Boot Alanis, Kenji, Sanae, Toppo, Wan Fu, Gau, Reed, Shiba, Wilder, *Rhett, Dupa, Nicolas. Abstain Nei, Belle. Keep Gadget Z (just feels right), Rody (awesome joke Light, has fans)

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Ultradude

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2009, 06:17:42 AM »
*Essay*
You know what? Thank you Soppy. You've inspired my rebellion against most of this booting.

Also, in advance, flat out 'no' to booting FE7 stuff at the moment.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2009, 06:54:29 AM »
(To Sopko, specifically, before I get into my general argument: if booting exists (and it does), then if you play a game that is on the cusp of being booted, you really have little to complain about if the game is booted as or shortly after you play it; in fact, you're kinda asking for it. If a game is probelmatic enough to be booted, chances are one person playing it isn't going to help much.)


Okay, look. It's all well and good to say "shrinking the roster makes no sense", but hold up for a moment. Let's take that idea and follow it to its logical conclusion. If the allure of the DL is indeed how many games are represented, then why wouldn't we just rank as much as possible? After all, by saying no to booting you are also saying there is no such thing as a bad rank. We could do this.

If we wanted to destroy the DL.

Exhibit A: Best of the Not Ranked. I will be quite frank about my opinion here: NR sucked and I don't miss it at all. Why? Because it's simply NOT FUN to barely be able to vote on things. Unless you've played 300 RPGs like Niu, then a pool that broad is, due to the fact that even a single dueller you can't vote on disqualifies your voting on a match, going to create severe voting issues. Note that the effect is quadratic; doubling the number of duellers you can't vote on (making some simplifying assumptions) creates four times as many matches you can't vote on, and that doubling happens pretty fast as you rank more and more obscure RPGs.

And all that non-voting is very unhealthy for a social site. Go back, and look at some Not Ranked season topics. Notice anything missing? Why yes, you may notice a distinct lack of discussion on the vast majority of matches, certainly far less than the active DL season topics. When far fewer people can vote on a match, there's much less potential for discussion of the match, and discussion of a match is the site's reason to exist. Without that, it descends into little more than a popularity contest.

Okay, so, ending the tangent of "ranking everything is extremely stupid", we get to booting. How do these connect? Pretty simple. Having accepted we are not ranking everything, it follows that we must have standards for what is rankable. While there are several standards for ranking (plot relevance, dueller memorability), it's hard to argue with "People can vote on this" as one of the single biggest criteria. I think we can all accept this, right? This ties into my earlier comments: creating more matches that few people can vote on is unhealthy for the site, and you do this by ranking poorly-played games.

Okay, so, how do we know if people can vote on something before ranking? The answer: we don't. We can guess through a variety of means, and those guesses are pretty accurate, usually, but it's impossible to know for sure until we start seeing some matches in practice and looking at, yes, PERCENTAGES.

Booting, then, is where we behave like adults and admit that, yes, we made a mistake. We shouldn't have ranked ____. Correcting that mistake is healthy for the DL. The sheer ABILITY to make mistakes is healthy for the DL. It means that we can experiment by ranking shaky ideas and see how they turn out. WA4, somewhat unbelievably in hindsight, got some opposition when it was up for ranking, as people pointed to its sales numbers and suggested it would fail. As we know, it was a great success; the knowledge that booting existed had it failed miserably was a safeguard that helped it get ranked. On the other hand, Baldur's Gate 2 was another very reasonable experiment - people honestly believed that there might be many casuals who had played the respectably-selling game, or that we'd attract more PCRPG fans to the DL. Neither happened, the game flopped, so we could boot it without permanently damaging the DL.

I look at the current ranking topic. I see Mana Khemia, I see Wild Arms 5, I see MMXCM. There's no Dragon Quest 8 in the bunch. Any of these games could end up failing miserably. I don't consider the chance negligible for any one of them (the odds of extreme failure are slim, granted). If we couldn't boot, I would start no-voting all of them, and many other new ranking ideas. I assure you I would not be alone. This would be bad for the DL.

Booting has a further purpose. That is to account for shifts in the DL votership and general opinion. When we first ranked things back in Contenders days, Nall and Ruby were good enough to be ranked; we booted them as opinion shifted to the non-consideration of clearly defined battle forms. General Leo was ranked and even enjoyed some success, but 30 seasons later his battle form was considered too borderline plot-ridden and unscalable to be suited to the DL. And finally, games like Arc the Lad 4 may have enjoyed adequate votership in the early days of the DL, but as more and more new voters came along who hadn't played it, it started to struggle more and more to meet the criteria of rankability. The world is not static, so a booting mechanic is needed to address changes.

Whether you want to boot many characters or few or even none at the moment, the mechanic of booting is one that is very necessary for the DL to continue functioning. This is true whether you see it as a business or as a social site (and I agree that you should see it as the latter). It allows criteria of rankability to be upheld even after a game is ranked, to correct mistakes, and to adapt to changing times.

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #65 on: February 09, 2009, 08:41:31 AM »
Rolf (main, has history), Nei (memorable female lead), Josh Kain (only one with an interesting spoiler skillset vs. Robots),

His skillset works on very few things in the DL. One of the things it works on (Dragons)...he lost to. I'd certainly argue that Hugh, Rudo, and Amy are more interesting than him.

As far as I remember, it only works on dragons found in the areas of the game where it works on everything full stop. That may be the only places where dragons are found, but that is besides the point - there are a number of ways of looking at it. A) It's a bug, B) The dragons are mechanical, C) Machinery techniques work on dragons for some reason. Presumably others. I know that I'm firmly in the B) camp since from memory I went looking around and found that all the monsters in those areas were set as both biological and mechanical, but most people haven't done that sort of thing (and I seem to remember some people completely discount that sort of thing full stop).

His attacks work on the wizard/mage/etc type enemies in those areas too, but I don't remember any hype for his attacks working against Palom.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #66 on: February 09, 2009, 09:52:45 AM »
Generally seconding all of NEB's thoughts. Booting is good because we make ranking mistakes or games just degrade over time and their DL positions become untenable. In theory, it would be great if were able to avoid all bootings, but in order to keep things healthy somtimes things have to go. Now, everyone has different ranking and booting criteria. I never strongly looked at the numbers, but I more paid attention to whether or not things could win when they should (and secondarily if games had a large of similar, not very important characters).

Granted, while SF can get wins (Over Connie and VP Mages!) and can come really close to beating people who they often have somewhat clean victories over, I personally don't see the enjoyment of seeing this game basically lose endlessly (Even worse, it's not the fodder losing, it's the stronger, more memorable duellers!). Since if the site really is about pleasing ourselves, does anyone really get a lot of enjoyment in saying Taya getting embarrassed again? Not to mention that while booting may not help voting totals, it would help people be able to vote on more, which in turn probably means they'll have more fun.

Sopko, you say we aren't being objective, but drawing 35% and kind of getting robbed? After a history of getting robbed? What objectively makes this dueller a strong case for staying in? I've voted for things I like to go now, and I've done it before too. Considering that the only game that seems likely to be fully booted this time is Baldur's Gate (Which granted, I may be the only person there with a keep vote and not saying keep all to everything), basically everything is still going to have some representation.

Another advantage to shrinking the pool is just better turnover. At this point, I know it's not going to do much given that H/M/L all are over 300 duellers by now, but I would then think if there was extra fodder, culling it would be better! (And hence why I strongly like culling games like FE 7/Suikodens/even CC. Between multiple sequels, you just end up with so many very similar characters who end up feeling very redundant, and it can feel like an overload. When some of them are kind of pale imitations of others, and have little plot, seems like they are already represented by others better).

On Josh...well, I believe those are weird demonic undead mages. However, I've certainly considered letting his stuff hit everything since it does hit all the last randoms, I believe? Of course, it seemed like consensus was that Josh could hit dragons, and even with the consensus he still failed. If he can hit only robots...well, does Light even have a single one? Uh...I guess Wisemen...were not completely unrobotic. Either way, he's an odd person to single out under the assumption that he can spoil people, because he'll never face any of them.
...into the nightfall.

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2009, 12:41:29 PM »
Drawing 35% against another not-as-commonly-played game by DL internal standards. Granted, the win's odd, but perhaps there was respect for Yukari's MDef there or something else.

I'm staying out of this argument, vote's remaining unchanged. My only major comment is that the theory is sound, NEB, but on the flipside doing this sort of thing always has negative/sour grapes repercussions amongst fans, whether robbed or not, whether merited or not, and at a point where the DL's mostly insular you get to choose which downside you want. I hold no grief with either side and I expect you to have made up your mind, proven by writing that post, but.

Whatever happens, happens.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 12:49:37 PM by Taishyr »

superaielman

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2009, 01:55:53 PM »
Sopko's stuff:

I have absolutely no problem with retiring Brig at this point, and I don't think many of the other fans do. It's never really gotten robbed *MuttermutterRennac hype* and did okay enough during the peak of vote drawing, but changing up the games we have on site and retiring some of the older ones isn't a bad thing. I'd support removing say a Lufia 1 style game, which has never struggled, just because at this point it's old and narrowing our focus a bit's a good thing. If you can think of another game that's been kept in spite of bad drawing, by all means say so.

(You would be right that Dragon Quest 4 got kept in spite of not winning/doing well, but it had an announced and hype S-E remake that unremarkably made the game a solid DL title again. That was just a matter of waiting for it come out.)

I like the idea of rotating games and things we have in the site. Next season will be season 50, this is not a new site any more. If we can look at a game and see it is: Constantly being bad at drawing/getting interest/getting robbed, removing it isn't a bad thing at all. BG was ranked specifically with the intention (I should know, I helped whip up interest/kick people into the game) of retiring it if it didn't work. It sadly hasn't no matter how many tries we've given it.


Keeping games/people in that people don't care about and don't draw doesn't make the site look better, it's just frustrating. Geshp's SF2's best dueller and he has been a running joke for 40 seasons now because he can't buy a win. Removing scrubs from even decent titles like CC (Something I wasn't in favor of doing before) just helps prevent writer burnout. Some of the hardest people to cover on updates are of course really obscure titles and cast members from large games no one cares about. Sprigg, come on down.  We are keeping some of SF1/2 without a doubt, just what stays is up in the air. More to the point, there's no way we can have open rankings like we do and not retire things. Cranbud's roster was close to half the size of ours and he controlled what got in. He could have pet FW and oddball ideas that never get in because he could set up the fields. We can't, and have to have a little more roster control.



Quote
Exhibit A: Best of the Not Ranked.


NR was great in the first several board seasons largely because everyone could vote on it. The games that did well (FE and SO3) got ranked, along with several longstanding unranked games that did really well. FF1, PKMN, etc. I lost interest in it right as we really started ranking in en mass a lot of games, or when it went on site. Perfect timing there. Oh well.


Quote
I'm staying out of this argument, vote's remaining unchanged. My only major comment is that the theory is sound, NEB, but on the flipside doing this sort of thing always has negative/sour grapes repercussions amongst fans, whether robbed or not, whether merited or not, and at a point where the DL's mostly insular you get to choose which downside you want. I hold no grief with either side and I expect you to have made up your mind, proven by writing that post, but.

Sour grapes do happen pretty much no matter what with any ranking/booting period. I don't regret any of the things we've retired. Do you really think that Guido and some of the other awful ideas we've had ranked were a good thing for the site? The DL is better off for the vast majority of the things we've removed being gone.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

SageAcrin

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #69 on: February 09, 2009, 02:10:41 PM »
Actually, I feel Elfboy missed a vital point, and one that, indeed, is very important to counter a point.

The point is pretty simple.

"We're down to internals anyways. What does it matter?"

Elfboy sorta glanced on this point, but not really a solid blow; As NR showed, internals can get stuck on voting.

Easily. NR and main DL combined broke...what, over 150 games? Averaging 40 hours?

C'mon, not everyone can reasonably hit that.

But that's really secondary to my main point.

You see, if we're down to just internals, there's another thing to point out. If we're down to just pleasing ourselves-something I honestly kinda dislike, it rules out the potential for having new people interested potentially, but assuming this...

...Why not trim the roster down to something more interesting to a majority and make intelligent rankings of characters with good writeup potential and interesting duelling options, rather than just inanely ranking as much as possible 'cause we can? And then rank new people who are like the good stuff I just said.

And if this isn't a bad idea...then we'd have to cut stuff that was as early as the RPGP, kept by a group of people that could entirely control the content of who got in, when they got in, and who they face, if they wished-content that worked for the RPGP just may not work for us, not if you want to keep any standards of enjoyment.

So if you want to work for a standard for the DL that doesn't care so much about voting, pkease, please, please at least care about something besides shiny numbers of people ranked. Large numbers aren't a good reason to do things, and we're not hurting any fictional characters feelings here.

Game representation is one thing, but numbers of people could easily be jacked up by ranking notable random encounters. This is a terrible idea. I can spell out why if it's not obvious. >_>

I'm not saying this is the only way to think about this or anything, but please, we need to stop thinking about why not to boot things, but why to. I can see a logic saying that we shouldn't boot full games ever(I can, in fact, see it just by looking up at Soppy's post. >_>), but that logic blurs to uselessness when it comes to partial boots.

In fact, that argument literally had...no real relevance to this overall, unless we're booting a full game that I missed(PS1 maybe? We probably should keep Alis at least, but I don't care too much personally.). Certainly not a majority of what's up. I'm not trying to belittle it, just sayin'.

(Ironic that I got into this, as I think we may well be considering booting too much this period, to judge the general comments in this topic. I, for one, would much rather see a limited selection of the more interesting Shining Force 2 characters get left rather than slashing them down to three or so. But I don't care strongly about it, and evidently others do. I'd rather let them make the decision.)
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2009, 02:44:52 PM »
On Josh...well, I believe those are weird demonic undead mages. However, I've certainly considered letting his stuff hit everything since it does hit all the last randoms, I believe? Of course, it seemed like consensus was that Josh could hit dragons, and even with the consensus he still failed. If he can hit only robots...well, does Light even have a single one? Uh...I guess Wisemen...were not completely unrobotic. Either way, he's an odd person to single out under the assumption that he can spoil people, because he'll never face any of them.

There's Gadget Z!~

Also, I would throw someone using a robot into his range of destruction, so XG characters like Dominia, Kelvena, or someone like WA4 Tony (who upgraded, damn!).

Of note: In Middle, there are a quite a few more robots (Thursday, Robo, Grobyc, Aigis) and mechanical-reliant-types (Lucca, Barret, Lexis Shaia, Seraphita, SHION!, G1 Mio if you stretch...) who might show up in downgrade pools that he could spoil.

His attacks work on the wizard/mage/etc type enemies in those areas too, but I don't remember any hype for his attacks working against Palom.
This makes me think of Wild ARMs' series Metal Demons. So any of those in Light are in trouble.

So yeah... not much he can hit specifically that I can think of... But this just means we need more ranked Robots, not fewer specific spoilers. Oddly enough, if someone has a specific plant-hitting weakness, they'd be able to make decent use of it in Light thanks to CC and BoF2/3... Only ones I can think who can even get something like this are VP2 characters (Weedwhacker I think it's called?).

-Djinn

EDIT!
Game representation is one thing, but numbers of people could easily be jacked up by ranking notable random encounters. This is a terrible idea. I can spell out why if it's not obvious. >_>

Hell yeah, I want more Slimes, Rabites, and Igglanova ranked.

Quote
(Ironic that I got into this, as I think we may well be considering booting too much this period, to judge the general comments in this topic. I, for one, would much rather see a limited selection of the more interesting Shining Force 2 characters get left rather than slashing them down to three or so. But I don't care strongly about it, and evidently others do. I'd rather let them make the decision.)

I don't think that necessarily everything I'm considering culling should be gone all at once. Right now, the large-cast games are still drawing well, at least... even if getting write-ups for them are difficult, or if a lot of them feel like pale imitators of good/plot-important duellers.

But I personally feel that having a reasonably large number of series ranked with minimal representation makes for more interesting duels as it cuts down on the amount of repetitive duellers. (So yes, I'm a fan of the FW type things). I don't think it would have been bad to keep, say, PS3 Mieu, or TA Meis. And I certainly don't mind keeping a BGs FW either. Variety of duellers is nice, even if I can't always vote on them. But if there's only say, 3 characters from a game ranked that I've never played, I don't worry about not being able to vote in that particular match. But I still enjoy reading other posters' comments on the match, the write-up for that match, and thanks to stat topics, I can still think about how I would vote on the match if I -did- have voting rights. This has also inspired me to play a minimally-ranked game on at least one occasion (Legend of Legaia, which I ended up massively enjoying picking apart the mechanics as I played).
EDIT: Thought of another example of this: Brigandine.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 03:19:43 PM by DjinnAndTonic »

SageAcrin

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #71 on: February 09, 2009, 03:00:47 PM »
Igglanova and Black Rabite are bosses(Iggy's just one twice.), and Slime has a PC form. In DQ5. Which could be up for ranking in the next half dozen months.

>_>

<_<

I wouldn't mind ranking them conceptually...

(Actually, I genuinely hope to push for Slime's ranking, as it's a very easily accessed PC that makes for an interesting dueller on top of, er, being Slime, but.)

This is off on a tangent though, but it does somewhat highlight my point. The more notable random encounters tend to be quasi-randoms or have some weird boss form or something.
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

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SnowFire

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2009, 11:09:04 PM »
Addendum: Boot Tales of Eternia as well.  Seems like there's only support for getting rid of the bosses, but I wouldn't mind seeing it all go.  The only thing that might make it better is if it got a re-release and retranslation in the US, which is probably doubtful.

Re booting theory: Allow me to say that conceptually I actually agree with Hunter Sopko.  Bootings are pretty harsh, so ideally it would never be necessary.  The real culprit is the DL's nomination system for setting up seasons.  This is opening up ANOTHER can of worms, I know, but Sage's point about the RPGP being able to carefully pick and arrange matches is a huge difference.  In a system like that, it'd be easy to slowly amp down the level of declining games such that Shining Force got in once every six seasons or thereabouts as a cute throwback to its fans.  However, there's nothing stopping randomness from picking a bunch of SF noms several seasons in a row, like has happened recently, and people nominate it.  I'm not a huge fan of Lufia 1 in the DL as well, but nobody nominates it, so it's not a big deal.  If Lufia 1 was flooding every season, under the current regime where there's no way to stop it from getting nominated, it'd unfortunately need to be booted.  Ugh, basically; it's hard to enforce the reasonable level lesser known games should get in such that they won't cause problems.

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2009, 11:39:19 PM »
First, don't boot CC.

Boot BGs.
Boot PS2 except Rolf.

And don't care on everything else.

I think I agree with AI1, here. (No, not Atellier Iris)

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2009, 02:41:42 AM »
Okay, look. It's all well and good to say "shrinking the roster makes no sense", but hold up for a moment. Let's take that idea and follow it to its logical conclusion. If the allure of the DL is indeed how many games are represented, then why wouldn't we just rank as much as possible? After all, by saying no to booting you are also saying there is no such thing as a bad rank. We could do this.

If we wanted to destroy the DL.

No, it's not the logical extension, especially that last part. It's taking it to an extreme mixed with a general strawman argument. No, it's not going to destroy the DL. And I never mentioned at all that we should rank everything. We just happen to have a different definition of where the line is when it comes to staying in the DL.

I see your point that I kind of bring it on myself by playing games that are on the cusp, but... it's still frustrating, especially when people would rather boot shit than play those games. I couldn't really put it this way before because most of the people I would level it at HAVE played them. I just think it's kind of a fatalistic argument to say "You bring it on yourself, one man can't make a difference" when... for the writer's corps at least it DOES make a huge difference to have another one.

Exhibit A: Best of the Not Ranked. I will be quite frank about my opinion here: NR sucked and I don't miss it at all. Why? Because it's simply NOT FUN to barely be able to vote on things. Unless you've played 300 RPGs like Niu, then a pool that broad is, due to the fact that even a single dueller you can't vote on disqualifies your voting on a match, going to create severe voting issues. Note that the effect is quadratic; doubling the number of duellers you can't vote on (making some simplifying assumptions) creates four times as many matches you can't vote on, and that doubling happens pretty fast as you rank more and more obscure RPGs.

And all that non-voting is very unhealthy for a social site. Go back, and look at some Not Ranked season topics. Notice anything missing? Why yes, you may notice a distinct lack of discussion on the vast majority of matches, certainly far less than the active DL season topics. When far fewer people can vote on a match, there's much less potential for discussion of the match, and discussion of a match is the site's reason to exist. Without that, it descends into little more than a popularity contest.

An extension of the same strawman argument. We went to a fairly large extreme for NR when it went on site, as Super pointed out. We could have set it up better, though the argument could be made that it would have gotten old fast if we really limited the games in it. Putting every last obscure game in there was a bit of a mistake, though it still interested me and accomplished it's goal even if it didn't garner a lot of votes. I honestly think as much as the obscure factor that it was on it's own subsection of the site and was mostly an internal thing that it never took off. But it does lead me to another point I'd like to make.

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't mind even if I can't vote on anything. It doesn't bother me in the least. I don't consider the DL any less fun, but then again, it's more due to the community than the arena that I come here. Nonetheless, it more makes me go "Hey, I should play that game!" than "Man, fuck this. I'm not having fun." I'm talking about the DL proper more than NR for this, since I've never encountered a week where I couldn't vote on anything (though sometimes when newly ranked games flood in, I've come close). It's sometimes funny that usually when a game like ToE or AtL4 gets in, it ends up facing a new game like P3 or FE9 that I haven't played yet and I end up not being able to vote on it.

I think we do a fine job of keeping things relevent to new people with new ranks. I'm not completely blowing them off, but the kind of people who are going to be put off by the occasional old game aren't usually the type to mesh with the group anyway, so being smart with new ranks will do fine for drawing people in. I don't think booting really helps with this, though it may not really hurt it either to be perfectly honest. My argument is that it's pointless rather than it hurts the DL, after all.

Quote from: superaielman
I'd support removing say a Lufia 1 style game, which has never struggled, just because at this point it's old and narrowing our focus a bit's a good thing.

While I don't really consider this a major point in itself, I can expand this to the larger argument. I'm just gonna say that installing a revolving door for old stuff that is still viable to "make room" for a new rank is sort of pointless since there's no reason to boot stuff if it's viable just because it's old. It's just progress for progress' sake and accomplishes no real goal if the game in question can still draw. Again though, this is in particular fairly minor point since I don't really see anyone getting behind this, but it can be applied to the argument at large since if you have a different idea of what is still viable or not it becomes very relevent.

I don't really agree with Dhyer in terms of the large cast games. I can see his point, but I can't get behind it. I respect it a bit more coming from him, though, since he does a lot of writing.

In terms of characters like General Leo and Necron, thats a different kind of argument entirely. That's a legality issue, not a popularity issue, and I do and have supported boots like this. I disagreed on Leo, to be fair, but Necron, Dario and the like were perfectly legitimate.