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Author Topic: S49 Retirement Topic  (Read 16117 times)

Talaysen

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #100 on: February 11, 2009, 04:33:53 PM »
Regarding Djinn's idea: No.

I could nom something off the top of my head that only two or three people here have played, and probably about 10% of our voters have played.  Then we have a match every week that only <=10% people can vote on, and if they make it to the finals, that's EVERY WEEK INCLUDING THE FINALS for that division.  That kind of ruins the fun for 90% of the people because they can't even vote on the finals.  Yeah, it's only one person per season, but on finals week, that's 1/4 matches right there.

Not to mention the points that Andrew put up.

Just keep that kind of stuff to board tourneys where it belongs.
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OblivionKnight

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #101 on: February 11, 2009, 04:39:19 PM »
I agree.  A neat idea (and one I threw around a long, long time ago), but ultimately...probably hurts more than helps.  A board tourney might be a good idea, or a resurrection of NR...but that's way, waaaaaaaay off, I think.

This has to be the most respectful, friendly, logically-debated retirement topic I've seen in years, though.
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superaielman

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #102 on: February 11, 2009, 06:05:31 PM »
Seconding Tal on the FW idea. Short circuting whatever ranking process we use won't work out well.

Quote
Honestly, I think the stipulation of "only nom something if you're willing to write and provide art for it" should be good enough to keep what is nommed reasonable. But, worst-case scenario, if art is impossible to find, we toss that character and use some other randomly-selected alternate.

No. In fact, hell no. Even ignoring the problem that people do come and go and don't always vote, there's the fact that you can't be 100% sure of being able to vote on a FW unless you've played literally everything in the DL. Low drawing games always have funky results. I'm not talking low like say ToE, I'm talking the P2 Guido level. You n eed to have some decently strong bottom line for FWs. Otherwise you're going to have an NR situation where someone (me or say Tai) are stuck writing for a game they don't know against a game they don't know. That's not fair to anyone involved.  NR gives some very painful examples in general why this doesn't work. On a related note, I probably know Remedi better than I do several entire games I've played in the DL, just because I wrote for her so many tiems.

Anyone can say they'll write for a game. Shit does come up in life, they have to go out of town, sick, etc. You have to have backups in case it hits a low draw or something off the wall that only a few people know. The 10 minimum writers I use is both an internal measurement of playership and about as far as we reasonably stretch a game's viability to be written effectively without problems or relying on one person. There are a few exceptions to this (P3. XF would most likely be fine in the DL for writers as of now because several of it's hardcore fans write a ton), but by and large it's a good cutoff.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 06:11:59 PM by superaielman »
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Andemon

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #103 on: February 11, 2009, 07:30:40 PM »
Plenty of games on the chopping block this time...
Let's see...:

ATL 4 - Keep. Kharg did pretty well during S41. Maybe the next time.
Chrono Cross - Boot the plotless, etc. Too many to list, refer to Djinn's post. They get in too frequently, must be annoying for those who can't vote for the game.
Baldur's Gate - Boot Viconia and Edwin, Keep the rest. (Starters and Imoen.)
Brigandine - Abstain.
Fire Emblem 7 - Boot Dart, Heath, Isadora and Vaida. Keep the rest.
Phantasy Star 1 - Boot. Hasn't aged well.
Phantasy Star 2 - Keep Rolf. The rest? Abstain.
Shining Force 1 - Boot Kane, Tao, Lowe, Balbaroy and Alef. Keep the rest.
Shining Force 2 - Keep Odd Eye, Bowie, Sarah, Slade and Peter. Boot the rest.
Barbarossa - Keep.
Suikoden 1-3 - Keep.
Tales of Eternia - Abstain.
Valkyrie Profile - Abstain. Could use some minor trimming, but maybe the next time...
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Ultradude

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #104 on: February 11, 2009, 07:40:03 PM »
Chrono Cross - Boot some guys.
Baldur's Gate - Keep Minsc and Imoen, boot the rest.
Fire Emblem 7 - Keep all.
Barbarossa - Keep.
Tales of Eternia - Boot Rassius, keep rest. I'd like to see Reid and one or two others get in by the next time we do this, and decide then.

Abstain on all others.
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superaielman

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2009, 01:42:24 AM »
This will be closed when the site closes thursday night, so get your votes in now!
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Tonfa

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2009, 01:49:51 AM »
Quote from: Hunter Sopko on February 11, 2009, 04:29:59 PM
ToE isn't. It's at about 48%, which is 3% higher than the next on the list.

People need to keep this in mind: The full votedraw data is from season 9 and on. That's almost 5 years ago. Needless to say it is outdated.

41+, last year's worth, is 46.65% for ToE. Only things worse are BGs and Brig.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2009, 02:13:05 AM »
When choosing a cutoff point, it's worth playing around with different ones, so you get a balance of "large enough sample space" and the issue of being recent enough to be relevant (see Tonfa).

ToE sucks by almost any measure though, not sure where Sopko is coming from there. The only games it beats under any cutoff I checked were retired games (e.g. P2), Brig, and BGs, as Tonfa said. It is trending downwards, and its recent draw of opponents is pretty average (three below, three above) so that may even be statistically significant. Would make sense, since the game is borderline unavailable right now.

Have I mentioned people who want to boot the Sega RPGs (in full, or reduce to lone FW) and spare ToE baffle me a bit?
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2009, 04:00:47 AM »
Didn't ToE get a PAL release on PSP or something?

That may have something to do with it?
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SageAcrin

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #109 on: February 12, 2009, 04:16:50 AM »
It did, but as near as I can tell, it made no real impact as it had less advertisement than, say, any Atlus game in the last couple of years.

I found out about it because GFAQs had it on it's upcoming games list. Nothing else.
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IhatethisCPU

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2009, 02:43:56 PM »
Quote from: SageAcrin on February 12, 2009, 04:16:50 AM
It did, but as near as I can tell, it made no real impact as it had less advertisement than, say, any Atlus game in the last couple of years.

Yeah, but Atlus has a remarkably devoted fanbase. The Faithful knows what Atlus releases, and they tend to buy... well, anything that Atlus releases. (Not counting Raidou 1 and Rule of Rose. >_>')

ATL 4 - Boot entirely. It's sole fans here are me and Alanna, correct? And Bebedora's probably out... and I actively despise both of the remaining characters. Selfish, yeah. >_>'
Chrono Cross - T'would simplify things if we got rid of every CC character in Light, so... boot all scrubs.
Baldur's Gate - Boot Imoen. Keep rest.
Brigandine - Keep Dryst for BtS purposes, boot the rest.
Fire Emblem 7 - Don't care.
Phantasy Star 1 - Boot.
Phantasy Star 2 - Keep Rolf. The rest? Abstain.
Shining Force 1 - Boot all.
Shining Force 2 - Keep Odd Eye, Bowie. Boot the rest.
Barbarossa - Keep.
Suikoden 1-3 - Keep. ...Why aren't we including S4 in this this discussion, incidentally?
Tales of Eternia - Abstain.
Valkyrie Profile - Keep Lenneth, and Lezard. Abstain on rest.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 02:50:59 PM by IhatethisCPU »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2009, 02:49:37 PM »
Because S4 was ranked after the point in time where we got more conservative about ranking large casts. There are probably one or two characters you could strip out from the game (Konrad and Axel come to mind), but overall it isn't especially cluttered. Same thing with S5 (with Shoon, say).
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IhatethisCPU

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2009, 02:53:17 PM »
Oh. Fair enough.
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OblivionKnight

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2009, 03:06:18 PM »
I like AtL4, as does Dhyer. 

;_; at losing Tatjana. 

And we don't think about booting S4 because it's the best game in the series - why it has less representation than S3 and S5 is beyond me.

Or, see what NEB said >_>
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2009, 07:18:22 PM »
I liked them as duellers anyways!
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Hunter Sopko

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #115 on: February 12, 2009, 07:31:52 PM »
Yeah, losing Tatjana sucked. Maru too. I like Bebedora, but the circumstances behind that are eh.
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NotMiki

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2009, 10:26:31 PM »
ATL 4 (Bebedora got a specific mention) Abstain

Chrono Cross (Lesser used, less connected, later characters; Split-path characters; Pip and Sprigg) hm.  Keep for now.  Can I confess I don't want my (kinda but not really) namesake booted?  Even though she probably should be?

Baldur's Gate Abstain

Brigandine Abstain

Fire Emblem 7 (Lesser used, less connected, later characters) Abstain

Phantasy Star 1 Abstain

Phantasy Star 2 Trim significantly (just Rolf is fine by me, but more is ok, too.)

Shining Force 1 Trim, but keep bosses/major characters (do I need to be more specific than this?)

Shining Force 2 Trim, same as SF1

Barbarossa (Suikoden) Keep.  Call Golden Hydra or whatever if it makes it you feel better.

Suikoden 1 (Lesser Used, Less Connected, Later Characters) Keep non-vanilla characters that may fit that description, boot the rest

Suikoden 2 (Lesser Used, Less Connected, Later Characters) Same as S1

Suikoden 3 (Lesser Used, Less Connected, Later Characters) Keep everyone.

Tales of Eternia Abstain

Valkyrie Profile (Lesser Used, Less Connected, Later Characters) Keep.  With a remake out there and sequels to keep interst active, I don't think booting is in order.  Besides, unlike Suikoden, VP scrubs are actually usable without too much trouble.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 10:38:45 PM by NotMiki »
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Shale

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #117 on: February 12, 2009, 10:51:55 PM »
Boot non-major characters from Shining Force 1 (keep Max, bosses and maybe Domingo), boot everyone from Chrono Cross, Fire Emblem and all Suikodens except Barbarossa. ShF1 is obviously falling into PS3/AtL3 mercy-kill territory, and if anybody on the giant doom casts gets up to majority support for booting then hell if I'm going to stand in the way. The arguments for booting Barbarossa are missing the forest for the trees. Okay,s o it's possible the Hydra is a True Rune incarnation instead of Barbarossa....okay, but why boot it? How does that make the combat form unrankable? Rename him Golden Hydra or Final Boss Of Suikoden 1 if it makes you happy, but it's not like there's any confusion over who we were trying to rank there.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 11:10:01 PM by Shale »
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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #118 on: February 12, 2009, 10:56:32 PM »
AtL4: If enough people want it gone then fine, boot it. I do feel bad for Bebedora just because it's Bebedora.

Chrono Cross: Abstain. If specific folks come up next round I'll think then.

Baldur's Gate: Boot. Apparently is a failed experiment. I do feel kind of bad for it but I've never ever managed to find the games myself despite trying, so...

Brigandine: Boot. We have at least one huge massive outspoken drooling fan of the game, so I'm loathe to really go after it. Edit: but even he is voting it out so away it goes. Though I'll miss Cai.

Fire Emblem 7: Keep Everything. Is seriously popular, unless I'm going insane. Sure, I don't give a crap about Wil, but it isn't so bad.

Phantasy Star 1: Abstain.

Phantasy Start 2: Abstain, if it comes up next round I'll consider booting everyone but Rolf.

ShF1: Abstain, if specifics come up I'll consider it.

ShF2: Abstain, see ShF1, add in random like of Sarah/Bowie/Odd Eye.

Barbarossa (Suikoden) : Boot. Multiform boss who isn't actually a fighter in any sense. Lots of people just antivote him by default, and he is generally reviled by most and liked by none. Can't see him adding anything positive to the DL at all. I mean, if people were fans or something I could understand the drive to keep him, but what is the point? All he does is tick a bunch of people off while being enjoyable for none. I honestly see no practical reason to spare him, and plenty to sacrifice him.

Suikodens: Keep. Well, it is really popular.

Tales of Eternia: Boot Rassius and Shizel, Abstain On the rest. Barring good numbers I'm not sure on them.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 11:03:11 PM by Cryo »
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Mad Fnorder

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #119 on: February 12, 2009, 11:31:20 PM »
Boot Barbossa, Freya, BG, Freya, Freya, Shizel, Freya, and Freya.
Keep CC and suikoscrubs.
Abstain on the rest.
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Shale

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #120 on: February 12, 2009, 11:33:05 PM »
Oh, almost forgot. Blanket boot extends to VP.
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Meeplelard

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #121 on: February 12, 2009, 11:33:36 PM »
Just tossing opinions on new stuff:


Suikoden: Wouldn't mind axing a few of them.  So much boring filler that adds nothing to do the DL, and doesn't have the plot to back it up.  For things to keep...plot relevant and those who have actual unique runes by the DL standards, like Rage or some such.

Freya: Keep.  History in the DL, and if nothing else, scrubby as it may be, I still see no problems with the VP2 form (I just treat Ether Strike as an all or nothing move; kill on it or lose the fight.)  If VP2 didn't exist?  I'd probably lean towards getting rid of her, since Chap 0 form really is no different than other temps with massive scaling issues.
Naturally, the rest of VP can stay.  Genevieve's the only one I'd consider booting but eh, she's harmless one way or another, and she's not completely worthless as a dueler, so don't mind her.

EDIT: As for ToE, abstain on all but Ras, who should get his ass punted.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 12:29:51 AM by Meeplelard »
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #122 on: February 12, 2009, 11:35:09 PM »
AtL4: Boot.

Chrono Cross: Keep.

Baldur's Gate: Boot.

Brigandine: Boot.

Fire Emblem 7: Keep

Phantasy Star 1: Boot.

Phantasy Start 2: Keep.

ShF1: Abstain.

ShF2: Boot optional PCs, which are Taya, Chaz(maybe?), and Sheela.

Barbarossa (Suikoden) Keepx10^23

Suikoden 1/2/3: Keep.

Tales of Eternia: Boot.

Freya: Bootx10^23
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superaielman

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #123 on: February 12, 2009, 11:36:53 PM »
Oh yeah, voted to keep VPs (See my post for why), with the exception of Freya.
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: S49 Retirement Topic
« Reply #124 on: February 13, 2009, 12:42:10 AM »
Just noting that from the looks of the Japanese strategy guide I picked up for Valkyrie Profile DS

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS VALKYRIE PROFILE DS (yeah right)

Freya seems to get a rankable form.

END SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS VALKYRIE PROFILE DS.

I'm sure the people who have played it will know more, but it seems worth considering at this juncture.


Noting that the reason I have no problem with keeping Brig is that while its draw is League-lowest, it never has any problems getting writeups and it's already down to the point where only the mains are ranked. Similarly, I like the idea of only having the AtL4, ToE, and BG mains to represent our lowest-drawing games. The games that can draw slighter higher (PS1, PS2, ShF1, ShF2) could use only slightly higher representation (main, final boss, female lead, one or two noteworthies). The large-cast games just need to drop the characters that we wouldn't consider ranking if we were ranking them by today's standards (FE7, S1/2/3, CC, VP1).

I don't support a complete booting of any of these games.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 12:46:42 AM by superaielman »
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