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Author Topic: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut  (Read 8845 times)

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2009, 02:34:24 PM »
To me, the flavor difference is that the MMX characters are not "RPG characters" in my mind, they are "sidescrolling game characters". They belong in a league with Mario, Sonic, Samus, et al. They originated for a different purpose and thus fit a different mold (at least in my mind). Same with any RPGs based on anime (Orphen comes to mind as very thematically similar on all accounts, but because it was an anime originally, I don't think of it when I think of RPGs.). Similarly, I don't think of Tales of the Abyss or Disgaea as 'anime franchises' - they are RPGs. It's just how I'm wired, I suppose. But I don't think this alone should hold a game back, but I have multiple small complaints that just started to add up. Likewise, the port and sequel for Mana Khemia helped it a little bit.

Also, how is Pokemon not an RPG? It certainly wasn't an anime or a sidescroller first...

And out of curiosity, how do you know that the GBA remakes didn't help voting? I think you're probably right, but I'm curious if there's any numbers on it. I mean, people bring up the ShF remake votesplit an awful lot, so I imagine a lot of people -did- play it?
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Sequels haven't really historically been shown to help previous games, unless I've missed something. Shared characters aside, that is. I may be forgetting something, but very few sequels had a sudden impact on the previous games, DL-wise. If you can come up with an example, that'd be nice, though.
Quote

Uh... Wild Arms ACF seems like a decent example of a game that was helped by a remake... Valkyrie Profile probably got some help from the PSP remake, too. I know I couldn't vote on it until that came out.

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2009, 02:38:20 PM »
Orphen

Why the HELL are you mentioning THAT blasphemy of a game?
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superaielman

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2009, 02:38:34 PM »
MK is a new game that's fairly popular by standards. The PSP remake means it won't be hard to find any time in the near future and expands it's possible ranking audience.  It may struggle a little, but overwhelming internal plus what looks to be passable external along with a new port to keep it fresh in people's minds should make it fine.

MMXCM is a much older title from the previous generation that did not sell well or do well in spite of a fairly large print run. The internal is wonderful and so is the fan interest, but it's not a slam dunk by any means. It'll probably work okay? I think? I don't have much faith in the bosses though. (It's also a damning commentary that MMXCM is one of the best ideas this time. Gooo next gen!)

Older title from previous gen with weak external raises alarm flags.

Quote
Sequels haven't really historically been shown to help previous games, unless I've missed something. Shared characters aside, that is. I may be forgetting something, but very few sequels had a sudden impact on the previous games, DL-wise. If you can come up with an example, that'd be nice, though.

DQ8 definitely increased  interest in the entire series, but the drawing with DQ4 (It was probably our worst non AtL4 draw for several seasons) made it not matter. You're pretty much dead on with this though.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 03:24:31 PM by superaielman »
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2009, 02:41:48 PM »
Orphen

Why the HELL are you mentioning THAT blasphemy of a game?

It's one of the few RPGs based on an anime that came out in the US? Also, thematically similar. Interestingly enough, the US saw the release of the game before the anime was translated officially, the reverse of Japan.

Also, horrible enough that people remember it. It's nice to be remembered for something.


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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2009, 02:45:42 PM »
I wouldn't worry about the flavor stuff. The kneejerk is understandable (You can probe people about say KH and get a similiar reaction some of the time) but the internal makes that not matter.

Quote
And out of curiosity, how do you know that the GBA remakes didn't help voting? I think you're probably right, but I'm curious if there's any numbers on it. I mean, people bring up the ShF remake votesplit an awful lot, so I imagine a lot of people -did- play it?

GBA remakes of Pokemon? RBY never, ever had drawing issues in the RPGP or DL.

SF1's remake sold awfully. Like 15k the last time I saw a figure quoted? The playership it does have in the DL creates some really evil votesplits on key fighters (Anri, Tao, Ramladu). Somehow SF1 got remade and it probably was hurt in the long run by it. Only Sega, ladies and gentlemen.
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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2009, 02:47:14 PM »
Horrible is a severe understatement.  It doesn't...it...I can't think of a way to describe it.  There's...nothing, really.  It doesn't have numbers (which most people here see as big for RPGs), it doesn't have any logic to it...the theory is the same (anime-RPG), but...I consider it more of an interactive suicide than an RPG.

Still, general point is taken.
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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2009, 03:24:48 PM »
The "Cross Genre" thing is a weak argument.  Again, see Super Mario RPG with Sage.

Also, most of the characters being ranked are INITIALLY from MMXCM.  Worst case scenario, we're ranking the 6 PCs, which means half of those are MMXCM originals (Massimo, Marino and Cinnamon), and frankly, I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of people were introduced to Axl through MMXCM (I know a lot of people have never played MMX7 or MMX8, but have played MMXCM in the DL, for example), so really, its just X and Zero who have this "issue" that isn't really much of one.

Considering the game will be ranked as "Mega Man X Command Mission" and not "Mega Man X Series", there won't be any problems.  Much like how, again, Mario, Bowser and Toadstool/Peach are ranked as "Super Mario RPG" and not "Super Mario Series."

If the Sonic RPG were to suddenly get enough support (doesn't seem likely in the near future...sadly...), would you use that same argument against them?  Really, its not a significant enough point.

Heck, Mario and Bowser get around this DESPITE having potential vote splits based on M&L and PM series; Vote Split is a MUCH bigger problem, if you ask me, than "Cross Genre."  Cross Genre should not be a factor; if the game is a reasonable to interpret RPG (which MMXCM is; Sonic RPG is too for that matter, but that's not on trial, only mentioning it since I brought it up earlier), then it has every right to go up for ranking.

At least in the case of, say, Kingdom Hearts, you can say the game has issues that make it potentially unrankable; the fact that some don't consider it an RPG is the big one, but other factors like "No Damage Display" (you have to eyeball everything through Scan) kick in and the game becomes something people like to avoid.  But a game like MMXCM that is an RPG through and through, with no real issues based on the game itself?  There's no excuse to hold off on it.

Being weary about the Vote Draw is one thing; that's fine, its a reasonable argument.  But "Cross Genre" is silly, especially when it really only matters for 2 characters, and KIND OF matters for a 3rd, and there are cross genre characters in the DL already and they've never had this problem.

Heck, many people were introduced to Ike through Brawl, and to them, Ike's a Fighting Game Character, and not an SRPG Character, do we hold this against him?  Of course not.
To take things a step further, to almost everyone who isn't a fan of the series, Marth is from the Smash Brothers series, *NOT* from Fire Emblem; the "he originates from Fire Emblem" is like a minor point that no one cares about stateside since no one played the game he's from.  So, FEDS is coming out soon, should that game come up for ranking, are you going to hold that against Marth cause most people view him as a Smash character and not an FE Character?

SMRPG has advantages over MMXCM, I won't deny this, but as far as the Cross Genre thing, they're the same.  SMRPG's big edge is, of course, more people have played it, but that's why its ranked and MMXCM is only now up for it.  But really, very few people, if any at all, are going to take this "Cross Genre" aspect into account.  At most, its going to be write up material (and its good stuff too!), and not much beyond that. 
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SageAcrin

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2009, 03:28:17 PM »
Quote
MK is a new game that's fairly popular by standards. The PSP remake means it won't be hard to find any time in the near future and expands it's possible ranking audience.  It may struggle a little, but overwhelming internal plus what looks to be passable external along with a new port to keep it fresh in people's minds should make it fine.

MMXCM is a much older title from the previous generation that did not sell well or do well in spite of a fairly large print run. The internal is wonderful and so is the fan interest, but it's not a slam dunk by any means. It'll probably work okay? I think? I don't have much faith in the bosses though. (It's also a damning commentary that MMXCM is one of the best ideas this time. Gooo next gen!)

Older title from previous gen with weak external raises alarm flags.

Yeah, all that sounds good in theory.

There's...just no actual backing up proof that Mana Khemia will actually improve at all to be more than MMXCM.

There've been PSP ports that have done nothing-in fact, I would say, simply, that no PSP ports have done anything for vote totals/done much to foster interest in a given game generally.

That may not be connected, because the PSP ports so far may have been exceptions to rules, but...probably not, PSP software sales have been abysmal recently. PSP port has...me interested that I've heard, not because I can't play it now but because I'm lazy and the PSP port got announced around the same time as the english release. It works just fine on my PS2. I think there's one or two other cases that echo this basically to the letter. There's no real reason to suspect a PSP port will help at all. It's just gravy.

Similarly, Mana Khemia is "fairly popular", but I've never seen any sales figures on it, that I can recall. This was the sort of thing I was fishing for; For all I know, they may not be very different on sales. As a point of fact, Mana Khemia's ranking push was very much like Brigandine, internally, with a few people selling the idea across the board. It's potential is "good", but I don't really know if there's anything to support that statement. It sounds good, but it may be completely empty.

I can appreciate trepidation about MMXCM, I just haven't seen anything that shows MK to be any different.

Edit:

Well, MK's newer. That's always good. But I mean, current stuff, not potential growth. Or at least, hammered down potential growth that would make sense. That was what I was trying to puzzle out; If there's any factual evidence to support that MK has good growth potential.

Quote
Also, how is Pokemon not an RPG? It certainly wasn't an anime or a sidescroller first...

The specific example was you talking about non-RPG mediums influencing votes on the DL due to people interacting with the non-RPG version instead of the RPG version. Considering this is...very much against the general spirit of the DL, breaking that idea with Pokemon makes as much sense as breaking it with Mario, all things considered.

Quote
Uh... Wild Arms ACF seems like a decent example of a game that was helped by a remake... Valkyrie Profile probably got some help from the PSP remake, too. I know I couldn't vote on it until that came out.

Those are sequels?

If you mean for the general remake comment rather than the sequel comment...ACF is the most complete overhaul of a game you can get without it being arguably not the same game, and VP PSP was a rare release initially, and ultimately kinda expensive to get. Little different. It's like how a Suikoden 2 remake might help right now... which they made and didn't port...(._.)

I still don't recall any real notable rise in VP votes from the port, though. I certainly haven't seen Lucian get robbed a lot lately or anything(VP:L Lucian being notably worse due to a bugfix.).
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 03:38:34 PM by SageAcrin »
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Ultradude

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2009, 03:39:18 PM »
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (FW Naesala)
Yes! (total series fanboyism :p)
Yes!
I was for ranking him already. Not hard to have an idea of what he does.

Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al-Revis
No.
Yes.
Seems to be really good internal, rank whoever.

Mega Man X: Command Mission
No.
Yes.
Shoulda picked it up when I had the chance a while ago... anyways, all the internal interest, interesting duelers, and... the external is a little more than just 'nominal' I think, though I guess I go different places online than others here >_> Rank PCs, Epsilon, final, quartet, and... HIPPOPRESSOR. I don't need to play it to see the hype.

For the record, I've seen plenty of copies of CM at Gamestop/EB, though it was a while ago when the game was newer.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 03:56:10 PM by Ultradude »
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superaielman

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2009, 03:44:06 PM »
Quote
There's...just no actual backing up proof that Mana Khemia will actually improve at all to be more than MMXCM.

It's always had a level of fan demand and it's from a new, fairly successful publisher. The Gamefaqs board is active, it's popular enough to justify a port to a secondary console and I'm not seeing any serious opposition to it here. It's not perfect but a newer game that was successful enough for a sequal/port has a leg up on an older title like CM.


CM is definitely accessable (It's in the super cheap game pile with Legaia 2, etc al), at least.

Quote
I still don't recall any real notable rise in VP votes from the port, though. I certainly haven't seen Lucian get robbed a lot lately or anything(VP:L Lucian being notably worse due to a bugfix.).

Lucian just lost to Saturos on site. Make what you will of that one.VP:L definitely increased access to VP, especially for casual fans who missed it during the PS1 era. How much of an impact it had besides letting some voters catch up on it.. who knows. It and SO2 certainly haven't been hurt by the PSP releases.
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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2009, 03:45:54 PM »
SO2 just came out. Doesn't count yet.

Really, I don't think I'm making my point clear enough, and I've finally thought of how, so I'll just put it simply.

Both games are even(enough, more or less so) on everything but growth potential.

Megaman X: Command Mission has growth potential of suck.

Mana Khemia has growth potential of mystery.

I'm baffled as how that can be a line between a definite rank and a definite no, is all.

Edit:

Also, just so I'm not ignoring your specific points, which would be rude of me; Gust isn't really that popular. NI and Atlus are sizably more so at this point, and I don't think I'd use their names as an instant-rank selling point. (Capcom, meanwhile, I would if I didn't know far, far better. How does Capcom have a name that big and still have such horribly selling games? It's a mystery.)

GFAQs forums are active for games with poor growth potential; Etrian Odyssey 2 has more posts than MK, but even if it wasn't rather...unrankable to start with, I have my doubts as to how well it would do for raw votes.

And Lucian vs Saturos was a good fight anyways. You're right, the few votes may have swung it, though.

Edit 2:

Also admitably, Golden Sun being Golden Sun, it could have been a lot of votes swinging it. I'unno. I'm inclined to say that people respect even a somewhat nerfed Lucian as a kneejerk though? No way to know, and the fight was on-paper not too bad for whatever it's worth.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 03:58:32 PM by SageAcrin »
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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2009, 03:52:09 PM »
MMXCM Bosses? Well...

Lets split them up into categories!

Plot Heavy and Significant Bosses that are clearly the best ideas:
Epsilon
The Final

Final Boss is a spoiler, hence why we're calling him that. Personally, I just wanna call him Anagram Man as a spoiler tag but that might be too obvious <.<  But he's got plenty of plot anyway.  Epsilon is the main villain for most of the game; if you've played MMX games, you know how there's always that OTHER guy whose just below Sigma and ends up being the "Villain" until you kill him and Sigma then goes "Rar I am the frue villain again!"?  Yeah, Epsilon's kind of like that, except replace Sigma with "Final Boss"

(Dr. Wily did that a few times too!  MM4 and MM5 being the obvious cases.)

Bosses with a decent amount of plot:
Scar
Ferham
Shadow
Bottos

Bottos you fight twice, I believe and keeps popping up, Shadow plays a role in a few scenes, Ferham is the typical Female Henchman, and Scar's the Ultra Loyal to the Villain (Epsilon in this case), but otherwise not a bad guy type.  These characters appear in several chapters, and essentially the Main Quartet who fight under Epsilon; you know, the cliche bunch?

Bosses who have very little plot outside their own Chapters:
Wild Jango
Silver Horn
Mach Jentra
Dr. Psyche
Incentas
Depth Dragoon

Really, the last two don't even HAVE plot, thinking of it.  You actually fight 5 of those bosses (all but Depth Dragoon) twice...except its plotless refights tossed in just for the usual MEga Man tease of "hey, refight the Robot Masters/Mavericks/etc." that the series is known for, but its really just there for filler to add a few more bosses to the final dungeon.  These are the Bosses I definitely do not support ranking; they're really no better than, say, FF7's Dyne, for example.


Boss with 0 plot but is SO AWESOME he should be ranked anyway:
Hippopressor

...do I have to explain this one?

Note I am not saying "WE SHOULD DEFINITELY RANK BOSSES!" This is a list of how respectable the bosses are as an idea.  As it stands, I would like to rank those from Category 2, but I know the game isn't strong enough to justify them, hence why I only support Category 1.
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superaielman

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2009, 04:07:38 PM »
Quote
Also, just so I'm not ignoring your specific points, which would be rude of me; Gust isn't really that popular. NI and Atlus are sizably more so at this point, and I don't think I'd use their names as an instant-rank selling point. (Capcom, meanwhile, I would if I didn't know far, far better. How does Capcom have a name that big and still have such horribly selling games? It's a mystery.)

AT2 has been the big RPG release in the past month. It's not like AI1 when you had a couple of copies shoved in the new corner, there was an entire wall of the games. I remember MK getting similiar attention back when it was ranked. Does that or an active board make it a good rank? No, but it means that they aren't niche titles like say AI1 was. There isn't any direct comptetion from the DQ8s and SO3s on the PS2 any more. 

The only reason CM's having objections raised to it is the age (Nearly 5 years old) plus the relative obscurity. MK doesn't have either of those problems at all, which is why it's pretty much getting waved along why people are objecting to CM. (Yes I realize the irony of favorbly comparing a Gust game over a Capcom RPG starring Megaman X characters. Capcom, you suck.)
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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2009, 04:50:11 PM »
Quote
AT2 has been the big RPG release in the past month.

In all fairness, has there been another RPG release in the past month?

I know this sounds snarky, but I really can't find one. IIRC this was a lousy month for english RPGs. And...generally games overall I think, in fact post-Christmas is usually terrible and with this economy...

Game stores have to buy something to keep selling something. The yuribait RPG is probably as good as anything, objectively. >_> Good timing on their part, and actually thinking on it, it makes AT2 a better ranking idea than I would have expected, but I'm not really sure this is necessarily a reflection on Gust so much as timing...

But yeah, the MK's definitely no AI1. It's a superior idea...but that's why it's getting at all ranked instead of sorta languishing in obscurity. Compared to say, P4, though, the popularity is pretty minor.

(NI, on reflection, has done a non-humorous, generally not-standard-for-them game in Soul Nomad and has done a PS3-only release in Dis 3, for it's latest two stuff, right? I'm not sure how it's popularity is recently, as those two do not help me.)
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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2009, 04:54:00 PM »
Persona 4 came out middle of December.  Close enough to count?  It still surely has some residual stuff...kind of. 

Eh, anyway, P4 has been the biggest release recently I can think of.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 04:55:33 PM by OblivionKnight »
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[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2009, 04:55:31 PM »
Considering a decent amount of RPGs game out within the last two months, not really.

Edit: ...or should have, it was Christmas but actually I'm blanking on non-P4 stuff too...
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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2009, 05:00:53 PM »
Naesala

1. No.

2. No.

3. No more FE filler.

Mana Khemia

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. It's built up tons of group support and has a PSP re-release to strum up more players.

MMXCM:

1. A little.

2. Sure, why not?

3. It's a weak rank but it's not unreasonable. I do suggest we don't go apeshit on ranking everything from it, though.
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Taishyr

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2009, 05:05:17 PM »
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (FW Naesala)
1. Yes
2. Yes

Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al-Revis
1. Yes. Less awesome than the above but still awesome.
2. Yep.

Rank all PCs, Tony, Renee, and Major Lategame Boss.

Mega Man X: Command Mission
1. Yes. More awesomeness.
2. Yes.

Rank all PCs, Epsilon, and the final boss.

90% of this post is post-elven content.

Pretty much. Naesala, looking at things, is actually interesting FE filler, to borrow Dune's term, so.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 05:07:47 PM by Taishyr »

alanna82

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2009, 05:43:40 PM »
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (FW Naesala)
yes
yes
should have been ranked in the first place

Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al-Revis
yes
yes
All PC's, no to bosses

Mega Man X: Command Mission
no
a very small ranking, just to test? if it turns out good, rank more later
have no idea who is in it, so just say the PC's then.

PurpleOutsider

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2009, 07:45:51 PM »
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (FW Naesala)
no
yes
I have no problem

Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al-Revis
yes
yes
PCs, Tony, Renee, Isolde

Mega Man X: Command Mission
no
yes
If it's ranked I'll get it (how do you pass on $8?)

Also, several mentions have been made about Mana Khemia 2. It's a direct sequel, however, it takes place several years later and the only recurring characters  (Flay & Tony are teachers and Zeppel is principle) are NPCs. It is coming to US, but it doesn't have a date as far as I'm aware.

Talaysen

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2009, 08:06:55 PM »
MK2 has never been officially announced for the US.

ThePiggyman

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2009, 08:46:32 PM »
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (FW Naesala)
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Great game, good votedraw, awesome character.

Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al-Revis
1. No.
2. Yes.
3. Looks good, lots of internal votership. I could get around to playing it as well. Characters seem interesting?

Mega Man X: Command Mission
1. No.
2. Abstain.
3. I don't know enough about it, or its votedraw to make an accurate statement about it.
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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2009, 09:59:22 PM »
Quote
Flay & Tony are teachers

Elfboy buying MK2 confirmed.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2009, 10:54:53 PM »
I normally don't doublepost, but I figure I should keep the joke content separate from the serious stuff.

Okay. I see a few people saying that ranking games that are powerful forces inside the DL but less popular outside is a bad idea. Quite frankly, I find this argument ridiculous, and out of touch with the DL's history of ranking ideas and how they've panned out.

First off, to get things out of the way,
(a) We don't recruit people by ranking games. We've tried, it doesn't work. I can't ever recall someone joining in response to us ranking a specific game. Either you like the general idea or you don't. More generally, you like the community or you don't.
(b) The DL is a slow-moving community when it comes to RPG playing. We never rank things right after they come out - if something makes it under six months, it's likely been an unusually viral game in the group. Typically we're closer to a year wait, but we've gone much further in the past. SD3 was a decade, Pokemon GSC/RSE was half that, same with Legaia 2, etc. This has never seemed to affect DL success of a game.
(c) Since we're not pandering to new fans with our ranks, who should we pander to? Obviously, our current voters. So the question is, what do our current voters play? And the answer seems to be, by and large, the same things the board plays. There's certainly variation here (more on that later) and yes, in this case I imagine the variation would go against MMXCM and MK both, but there's never much. I'll cite examples in a moment.

So yeah, that brings us to the numbers. I'm focussing on Mega Man X Command Mission for the rest of this post, because Mana Khemia seems safe. So, let's begin with the best indication we have of internal votership, not to mention the most important because it also determines the daily running of the site: the writer numbers.

Mega Man X Command Mission: 15/20 writers. Tal's playing this at the moment, so it might as well be 16/20.

I don't think people realise how good this is. Let's compare other recently ranked games at the time of ranking!

Tales of the Abyss - 15/20
Mana Khemia - 13/20
Digital Devil Saga - 13/20
Grandia 3 - 12/20
Final Fantasy 3 - 11/20
Fire Emblem 9 - 11/21
Disgaea 2 - 10/21
Persona 3 - 9/20 (worth noting that P3 was picking up players at the time, IIRC, so this is a little low)

Cross-referencing this with DL success, it's hardly a one-to-one thing (FF3, a well-known FF game, certainly has drawn better than DDS, which got a huge internal push to reach rankability), but generally, games with more internal do better. When we have tried to rank things with terrible internal on the basis of a good external, the results have not been good:

Baldur's Gate - our worst vote draw, about to be booted. Popular elsewhere and sold well, did not work here.
FFX-2 - sold well, has quite a number of off-DL fans, but lacked internal. Flopped, and got culled down to Paine.
People have tried to argue for games like Golden Sun 2 and FFTA using similar arguments but fortunately were shot down. I'd add FF12 to this. These are all games I could see flopping badly in the DL.

On the other hand, has the reverse happened? Has a good internal game ever really failed? The closest we've come is with Brig, which is ranked so long ago that I can't really compare. DDS and Legaia 2 certainly aren't impressive, but they're adequate. MMXCM out-internals even these games. It would literally have the highest internal of anything we have ranked in two and a half years, since Wild Arms 4. (Even DQ8 was only 15/20.) You remember WA4? The game that a few people said was supposed to be a bad ranking idea despite awesome internal because it sold pathetically (far less than MMXCM) and wasn't talked about much at other sites, or even especially popular in the WA community? Yeah. The argument failed then, and it fails now.

For any number of reasons, MMXCM won't be another WA4. WA4 was loved by almost all, MMXCM is liked by many but hated by some and reacted to apathetically by some. MMXCM has 16/20 writers, WA4 was 19/20 (good lord). WA4 was part of a proven DL series. etc.

But nor will it be another Baldur's Gate. Internal numbers this high guarantee a certain level of success. So if it's not going to completely embarrass itself, and is not going to have problems getting writers (hi BG!), and people want it in (and they do! This is why the debate is going on; this is not an apathy-inducing rank like VH or S4), why block it? I can see blocking the bosses or whatever (don't agree myself, but not strongly enough to argue the issue), but the PCs seem like a no-brainer ranking idea.

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Talaysen

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Re: Season 49 Rankings - Making the final cut
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2009, 11:31:13 PM »
I think MMXCM's 15/20 number was including me already, since I had explicitly told super (and others) that I would play it if it was up for ranking (and had actually started it awhile ago).  You'd have to ask super to be sure, but yeah.

Not that it changes the argument a whole lot.  Just saying.