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Author Topic: Retirement thread, Season 49  (Read 10260 times)

NotMiki

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2009, 09:13:51 PM »
Added Tao, Anri, Zylo, Mae, and Mishaela to my keep list.  Totally unbidden, I might add.
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InfinityDragon

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2009, 11:55:19 PM »
AtL4 Bebedora - Boot
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira) - Boot
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt) - Boot
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie) - Boot
Tales of Eternia secondary characters - Boot
VPs Freya - Keep

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2009, 12:26:36 AM »
AtL4 Bebedora: Boot.
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira): Boot all.
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt): Boot all.
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie): Abstain on Sarah/Slade/Lemon, boot the rest.
Tales of Eternia secondary characters: Abstain.
VPs Freya: Abstain.

Nephrite

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2009, 01:36:33 AM »
Stealing most of Djinn's list.


AtL4 Bebedora - Abstain

Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Jaheira) - Abstain

Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt)
Keep: Ramladu, Darksol, Domingo, Mae, Mishaela, Bleu, Anri and Tao
Boot: Everyone else

Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie)
Keep: Slade, Sarah, Kazin, Taya, Kiwi, Sheela and any other bosses
Boot: Everyone else

Tales of Eternia secondary characters
Keep: Max
Boot: Everyone else

VPs Freya - Keep
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 08:01:46 PM by Nephrite »

Niu

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2009, 02:08:23 AM »
Byebye to Bebedora and BG.
Fanboyism demand me to keep ToE.
Don't care about Shinging Force4.
And total destruction to Freya.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2009, 03:56:16 AM »
Mm-kay. Um SHINING FORCE SPOILARS

SF2 Cameela- She really feels like a keeper. She's pretty memorable as a character for being a huge bitch and fighting with Geshp, she's a memorable boss fight, since she's on the giant bird thing and has a freaking hueg ball and chain. And she is pretty scary as a boss. (Plus she is a girl-demon!) Shining Force bosses tend to be more memorable than PCs, so I say she's a keeper.

SF2 Chaz- Okay, so I thought he was an optional PC, but the ULTIMATE SHINING FORCE GUIDE says he's not. Regardless, he has a really boring skillset compared to the other mages, and it feels like he doesn't really fill a niche you haven't already filled with like 5 people. Also I would like to note that he is one of the only PCs, including most of them that were booted last time, that I actually have to look up to know anything about him. In fact I have no idea why he isn't already gone.

SF2 Chester- He's one of the two first PCs you get, and all centaurs are pretty much the same aside from May. I think having a token centaur since they are a good chunk of the game's characters is a good idea, and Chester fills this role quite nicely as is.

SF2 Elric- The main thing Elric is memorable for is getting attacked by harpies and swirling in a lake for an entire battle. He's really not special otherwise, archers are totally and utterly DL-nerfed because of the range stuff (except against FE I guess!), and aside from that one battle he has no plot. Buh-bye.

SF2 Galam- He's really important as a NPC early, disappears for 90% of the game, and comes back as a random late boss. He doesn't really fill a niche that the Greater Devils don't, even if he's plot important at the start.

SF2 Gerhalt- He's mostly just devastatingly boring. You recruit him, he's a pretty solid PC but nothing fantastic. Panders to furries. He does nothing in the plot after you SAVE HIS VILLAGE FROM DEVILS or something.

SF2 Geshp- He's pretty much the face of villainry throughout most of the mid-section of the game. He is a major league asshole who really is memorable for his being a douche, his ugly looks, and the fact that if you aren't expecting a Frost to the face, you better start. He's a good dueller, even if he gets beat by SERGE.

SF2 Jaha- Jaha is kind of the same as Chester, except he joins at the second battle and... I guess I feel like his class isn't really an important part of the PC core like Chester's is (plus less memorable due to not being you know a centaur). I am not voting to boot him but I find him uninteresting enough that there is a case for it.

SF2 Kazin- First and only mage that you have in your party for a long time, especially if you don't get Tyrin as your Creed PC (which you should!), so he is memorable in game for doing something different than everyone else, at least. Plus his sorceror form if you allow it is totally bishie.

SF2 Kiwi- Optional and completely horrible. Great combination. Even if he's cuuuute.

SF2 Lemon- I found Lemon to be pretty memorable, but apparently there's some glitch that makes him suck that seems to be up for an argument to boot him. I am pretty leery of booting him even though he's on my list to boot, I remember him jumping off a building and making a giant crater in a ground pretty damn well. <_<

SF2 Luke- He is memorable for being ONE OF THE WORST PCS IN THE GAME. He basically just has one scene after his recruitment and who the fuck uses him anyway.

SF2 May- I like May. She's cute and one of my favorite PCs, but she's optional and doesn't really have plot or fulfill any type of special niche. Sadly.

SF2 Rohde- The main reason I wrote this post is to defend why I'd prefer keeping him. He has more plot than most of SF2's PCs, and while his class isn't unique, if you aren't actively searching for special items, it is. If you want to keep a token archer in the DL, I'd suggest the one who moves the mid-game plot around quite nicely; between trying to get him to join you and getting the Caravan and being your guide on technology (using bombs in caves, flying the airship) he seems like the no-brainer choice. He is around more than just about anyone but Peter to offer his guidance for your party.

SF2 Sarah- First and only healer for a long time depending on your Creed choice. She starts out at the beginning the same as Chester but she has a lot more diversity as a dueller, which leads me to be more inclined to keep her, even though I'd prefer keeping both.

SF2 Sheela- She's not really a great rank objectively, optional endgame PC and all, but she is good and has an interesting skillset that no one else uses. Also her recruitment scene is really fun compared to most. HOW DARE YOU WATCH ME BATHE. *asskicking commences* SHINING FORCE PLOT I know.


SF2 Slade- The catalyst of the plot, unique class, really a good person to keep, don't really need to cover this.

SF2 Taya- Optional PC whose in-game performance is hard to really get going because the next fight you fight after her a lot of the enemies just OHKO her. I feel like a lot of her DL problems stem from the fact that it's hard to see what she can do sometimes because she's so goddamn frail.

SF2 Zalbard- He's definitely the least memorable of the Greater Devils and he doesn't translate fully to the DL due to his game being MT death. He's a champ though which makes me say keep.

SF2 Zeon- FINAL BOSS, SKELETON HEAD. Looming figure over the plot, I could be argued into booting him because he's really not that... visible most of the game and the final boss battle is weaksauce.

SF2 Zynk- He has some plot but honestly it's boring even by SHINING FORCE PLOT standards. I don't mind him going, he's a terrible PC too.

Moreover, I believe that the cast's drawing/being really bad at winning combination justifies a pruning. But if your standards for pruning are extremely high (i.e. you think everything should draw over 55%) then I suggest that you put a lot of other games at the table, like Ogre Battle, Seiken Densetsu 3, and Disgaea 2. SF2's drawing rate is 52%, which is a league above BGs/ToE/Brig/AtL4 etc. (For the last 20 seasons. What happened in Season 9 is irrelevant.) If you want to fully boot all the games under and near SF2, then I am fine with a blanket boot, not that most people have said why they want to blanket boot.
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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2009, 04:17:10 AM »
Boot Bebedora

Boot the BGs

Keep Darksol, boot the rest

Keep Slade and the Greater Devils and final boss, boot the rest

Keep Max, boot the rest

Abstain on Freya



Don't think of it as a novel. Think of it as a chance to retroactively win every argument you have ever walked away from.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2009, 04:20:23 AM »
But if your standards for pruning are extremely high (i.e. you think everything should draw over 55%) then I suggest that you put a lot of other games at the table, like Ogre Battle, Seiken Densetsu 3, and Disgaea 2. S
If you want to fully boot all the games under and near SF2, then I am fine with a blanket boot, not that most people have said why they want to blanket boot.

This seems to imply that the only reason worth pruning a cast is if it doesn't draw.

A lot people seem to have issues with large-cast games because they are hard to find writers for, or the less-popular characters from such games don't have anything worth writing about.

Honestly, Ogre Battle is another large-cast game that could stand some trimming, but it's no worse than say FE8's ranking size... even though it draws less well.

SD3's problem is always going to be the Japan-only thing... until it finally gets a remake/port.

Disgaea 2 is a small rank, and still somewhat new (not to mention that most of its matches have been against things like ShF and PSII...), it's kind of hard to say how well it's doing at this point.

-Djinn

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2009, 04:25:05 AM »
Er, I meant completely booting there. I condone pruning it, that's why I voted to boot half the cast. <_< My general point isn't that we should boot Disgaea 2, but that having standards that high is silly.

EDIT: In other words I think having a 52% drawing game with 35 characters is bad but having one with 10 popular, more memorable characters is much wiser than just booting everything. I think those measures are reserved for worse drawing games.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 04:28:51 AM by Ciato »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2009, 04:28:56 AM »
Switched all my abstains on Shining Force to Keeps. (I had previously voted nothing but Boot or Abstain for the entire cast.) Seems the DL is a bit boot-happy instead of keep-happy this time (not that I'm complaining! Do not miss the keep-all votes), so I don't mind adding some votes to keep a bit more of the game ranked. Since yeah, if we have more ToE or Brig ranked than we do Shining Force we are doing something very wrong.

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Nitori

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2009, 04:31:24 AM »
Doing things wrong is fun~

(Switched to killing Freya/Rassius/Shizel and keeping Chat/Max~)
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superaielman

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2009, 02:05:04 PM »
Er, I meant completely booting there. I condone pruning it, that's why I voted to boot half the cast. <_< My general point isn't that we should boot Disgaea 2, but that having standards that high is silly.

EDIT: In other words I think having a 52% drawing game with 35 characters is bad but having one with 10 popular, more memorable characters is much wiser than just booting everything. I think those measures are reserved for worse drawing games.

I'm hoping removing some of the failures (Taya) will help SF2's draw rebound myself. The less you have ranked usually increases your draw, and SF1/2's less stellar ideas have been all over the place in a bad way of late. You and everyone else has gone into why cutting the scrubs no one cares about is a good thing.


Quote
Honestly, Ogre Battle is another large-cast game that could stand some trimming, but it's no worse than say FE8's ranking size... even though it draws less well.

I could live without the four lights+Rauny, but it's nothing too bad. Three major bosses+main+dragoons+generals has you to 9 already, so there wouldn't be a lot to go there. If we had ranked say the Lyons or Gilberts, it'd maybe a problem.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2009, 03:40:02 PM »
I'm vaguely curious to why the boot votes for Kazin. I think he's a unique enough PC to keep myself. He LOST LAST TIME HE WAS IN!!! though or something, I certainly voted against him so I don't see what the big deal is here. <_<
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Nephrite

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2009, 05:34:02 PM »
Changed my SF2 vote to keeping Kazin, Taya and Kiwi as well as Sarah and Slade and the bosses.

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2009, 08:42:05 PM »
Amended ShF2 vote again.  Added a  Keep Sarah, Chester, Jaha, Kazin and Rohde and an Abstain Gerhalt.
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OblivionKnight

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2009, 08:49:52 PM »
This is going to be an interesting retirement session.  >_>
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NotMiki

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2009, 06:34:44 AM »
another round of reconsiderations.  added Cameela, Zalbard, and Geshp to keep.
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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2009, 06:51:49 AM »
I have this weird feeling we're going to end up with another Bededora situation. Where we have an odd selection of ranked characters because of the wildly differing votes that favor characters for weird reasons.

We're to end up with a sampling like Bowie, Peter, OddEye, Lemon, Cameela, but miss out on Geshp or Slade... or something like that.

Still not as weird as 'Both mains and a random PC', I suppose.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2009, 07:03:48 AM »
Quote
We're to end up with a sampling like Bowie, Peter, OddEye, Lemon, Cameela, but miss out on Geshp or Slade... or something like that.

As the person counting this thing, no, we're not.

Bebedora was really weird because the game was being culled down to the mains as FWs, but for some reason Bebedora got just enough keeps to stay on.

Shining Force isn't being culled down that much (looks like each cast will be at about ~10 when the dust settles). What's going on now is really democracy at work; those with enough support stay on. While I personally find some of the picks a bit odd (why Domingo, again?) I can't deny the public will, and generally, it mostly makes sense. Looking over the list of what's in and what's out, it seems reasonable enough, particularly when viewed through the lens of DL history and opinion.

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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2009, 07:36:04 AM »
Domingo's one of the best mage units in the game from what I remember. And... tanky?

ShF original anyway. The mages were pretty good overall in that. ...Speaking of, looking at my keep list, it seems weird that I'd keep Tao and not Anri, who has more plot. Change Anri to a keep. Princess power.

Eh, throw Zylo in there with the Keeps, too. Beastmen are fairly rare in Light, so it could make for good write-up fodder. Also, Doglike. Zylo vs. Suikodogs season is just around the corner!

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Ayra

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2009, 01:24:05 PM »
I'll admit I'm someone who tends to nominate characters that I like but that I know are horrible draws (Like May), so not having those characters there would reduce my amount of "bad" nominations quite a bit :) If it were just personal preference I'd vote "Keep" on all SF2 characters, but I'm going to go by what I think is in the DL best interest...

Bebedora - Boot

BGs - I'd say keep Imoen, she's kinda the face of the serie, and keep Minsc for potentially funny writeups, and boot the rest

ToE - Haven't played, abstain

SF1 - I'd say keep Anri (Token serie mage), Mae (Token centaur), Domingo (Token flying jellyfish) and Zylo (Token not completely horrible dog). Boot the rest.

SF2 - Keep Rohde (Literal tank with plot), Sarah (Monk form hype), Slade (Obvious). Boot the rest though I adore Taya and Sheela...

Freya - If VP2 Odin is legal, why isn't VP2 Freya legal? I feel as if she's an integral part of the Valkyrie Profile serie plots, and I don't see how her VP2 boss form is questionable. I vote keep based on that.
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OblivionKnight

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2009, 02:18:08 PM »
;_;

It is sad we are booting Sheela, who is the hottest and most realistic of all the girls in the game.  This makes me very, very, very sad.  Like a panda without bamboo.  Being raped by George Lucas.

Oh well, I suppose some culling can't hurt.
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2009, 02:20:42 PM »
Liking Shining Force characters for hotness? Huh. I wasn't a big fan of the art style, and the designs for the human and elf characters are pretty bland.

Still, to each his own.

-Djinn

OblivionKnight

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2009, 02:39:07 PM »
Look at Sheela, then look at every other character in the game's portrait.

Come on, do it.

Go here!  http://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/pages/characters_force.html



And seriously, why SHOULDN'T we care about hotness?  Do you really want UGLIES on the season diamond?  I mean...yuck!  I don't want to see SARA on that diamond again.  She's fucking HIDEOUS.  The DL needs to keep the attractive people. 
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

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[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Retirement thread, Season 49
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2009, 03:42:28 PM »
We're to end up with a sampling like Bowie, Peter, OddEye, Lemon, Cameela, but miss out on Geshp or Slade... or something like that.

It seems like we are going to get all the Greater Devils. Zeon being out and the devils being in is about the weirdest scenario that we have set up. Slade is definitely in as well, iirc. So we distinctively aren't getting a weird sampling.

Also, Sheela is awesome. :)
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