Soul Nomad: Musings on a potential stat topic idea.

[DjinnAndTonic]

So I've been mulling over Soul Nomad (probably too much), trying to sort out how I would view them as a duelling cast.

The way that seemed most reflective of in-game performance and gave characters access to their unique abilities is as follows:

Let's use Vitali and Grunsford as typical examples.

Vitali has all the properties of a Cleric generic, only with a special combo attack with Revya and slightly better natural stats.
He has three Row Attacks: Big Strike (ST physical melee, crappy, used when in front row); Heal One (ST ally 80% healing, targets lowest HP ally, middle row); Heal All (MT ally 80% healing, used when in back row)
As a leader, he can use a single Combat Skill "Bolster" (3 uses, Increases DEF&RES of all allies), which activates before a normal round of combat.
Also as a leader, he can use two Tactics skills on the overworld field map during a mission: Healish (1use, Heals 30% HP to ally); and Protect (1 use, DEF&RES +30% to ally)

Grunsford has all the typical properties of a RedFlank generic, only with a special combo attack with Revya and slightly better natural stats.
He has two Row Attacks (Front and Middle)
As a leader, he can use a single Combat Skill "Dead-on Bash" that activates after a normal combat turn.
Also as a leader, he can use the Tactic "Intimidate" (ACT-50% on one squad) on the field one time.

I think it makes sense to view the PCs as the Squad that moves around on the field rather than the individual mannequin within the Room.  Logically, this makes everything associated with the Squad into equipment/materia-like accessories; including the Room itself, the Room Decor, any storebought Decors, and yes, any other generic mooks that will fit in the Squad besides the Leader.

Before you scream "broken", as long as you use the same number of generic mooks per room (I'd say 5 or the max, 9), then the damages average out. Each PC is clearly a member of one of the generic classes (except perhaps Danette and Walnut). Even Revya faces off against generic Revyas.

It also gives the characters access to all of their Row Attacks in a single battle. It also gives the characters access to more unique Combat Skills (that require multiple mannequins of the same type). It ALSO gives them more Tactics skills (and more charges for each Tactics skill based on the number of mannequins of the particular type in the squad).

So there's a lot of strong gameplay support for the PCs to be treated as leaders of a squad of their own class (grants a lot of benefits).

So let's look at what kind of PCs we'd have if we treated the Squads as a single unit (using 5-mannequin squads).

Vitali has 3 hits of his (crappy) front-row attack and 2 shots of back-row healing to maximize his damage and fully heal himself every round.
Vitali has access to two different Combat Skills "Bolster" and "Magic Fence" which activate before a normal combat round if he has the correct amount of Stamina and uses (he can use each once). Both of these are simply buffs for the squad.
Vitali can use 3 separate Tactics skills (Healishx3, Protectlx3, RestoreLife[fullhealing]x2) that he can use on the field as a leader.

Grunsford has 3 hits of his front-row attack and 2 hits of back-row attack to maximize his damage (not very accurate, but very high atk)
Grunsford has access to three different Combat Skills "Dead-on Blow", "Tremor", and "Aftershock", which activate after a normal combat round if he has the correct amount of Stamina and uses (he can use each once).
Grunsford can use 3 separate Tactics skills (Intimidatex3, Fierce Howlx2, HotRagex1) for varying stat breaks/buffs that he can use on the field as a leader.

Much more interesting duellers when you look at them this way. (The same might be said of OB characters if they were given generic mooks as equipment... just a thought).

Also, with the way the averaging works, you'd still see about the same spread ATK/DEF/HP/Damage, because by adding a few generics' damage to each of the PCs, you'd just see all the numbers inflate by 5x, including the averages.

"But they aren't alone!" Well, on the field map, only the leader exists, he's the one who uses the Tactics skills and it's only his Combat skills that can be used in battle. Also, when it comes to taking hits... just think of the Squads as something akin to multi-part bosses. You only have to kill the main part to kill the whole.

Yes, I know the DL is resistant to outside-the-box ideas like this. But I don't think SN has a chance in hell of being ranked anyway, so this is purely for a hypothetical stat topic for use with board tournaments and general discussion.

I think Danette's abilities line up with the Sepp Bandit class, but I don't have my copy of the game to check that. Also, no clue how to interp the actual unique units like Walnut, Lujei, Median.

What are your thoughts, DL?

[Niu]

I'd say instead of treating them as a squad, it is better of to let them choose from their raw attacks when fighting, and allow them to use their combat skills every turn before they attack.
I don't think we should allow decorations, as I view them more like items.

[Fudozukushi]

Lujei and Median are both optional aftergame anyway.  And Revya's generics can't be in the party.  Layla is also a "unique" class.

[Talaysen]

One person.  Gets to choose a row before the fight.

Simple.

[DjinnAndTonic]

And boring. And not really representative of how good a character is in-game... nor does it show off all of their unique skillsets.

But it's an understandable view.

[superaielman]

DL legal isn't always interesting or reflective of in game value. It happens sometimes, especially with SRPGs and large cast games.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I understand that, but I think there's a decent argument for taking the PCs as squads instead of as immobile one-attack wonders.

-Djinn

[dude789]

I think one person with them getting to choose a row each turn would be best. It allows each character to use all of their skillset, but doesn't punish them if they don't have an attack for a certain row like using squads would.

[Talaysen]

Okay.  Let me explain to you why this is a bad idea.

You now have six (or whatever, number doesn't matter just that it's greater than one) characters fighting.  Yeah yeah damage averages out, but that's the ONLY thing that averages out.  Opponents with ST attacks now have to kill six people, and thus have to survive six turns even if they OHKO.  I shouldn't have to explain why this is bad.

If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that Vitali is now Vitali + 5 clerics.  No, this group here can both attack and heal AT THE SAME TIME.  Can Vitali do this in-game?  No.  You've gone beyond giving them more access to their skillsets to letting them do things they can't even do in-game.  I shouldn't have to explain why this is bad either.

Not to mention there's now five people on the field who aren't Vitali (you'd have a better argument if you assumed five Vitali "clones", but that's not going to fix the problem here).

This isn't the first game that's had skills weakned or lost in the DL.  WA4 has Joint Struggle (weakned) and all Crisis skills (lost).  VP characters who can PWS every turn in-game due to the system can't do it in the DL (most of them never to me), same with VP2.  FF8 and Suikoden lose twinking potential.  WA3 does.  S3 Nei becomes practically useless, as do SH2 Lucia and SH3 Ricardo (well I guess they have magic, but most of their skillsets are nuked).  PKMN lose TM abilities.  XG and XS lose access to their robots.

CT, CC, WA4, and some Suikodens even have combo techs, which is something like some SN specials in cases.

The biggest problem here is that you're proposing to do this to ONE GAME, when MANY GAMES have issues like this in the DL.  Just interp it the way you would any game.  It works fine.

[074]

Indeed.  One character, selects a row prior to the fight.  Allowed the uses of Tactics that they would were they alone.  No room modifiers.  Techs apply when they would.

SN would have interp problems closer to those of FE or SRW, in that there's the question of counters.  If counters are allowed, then, the question of melee vs. ranged interactions.  Also, figuring out how ACT works as far as speed goes is arguably a bigger issue if we ever consider ranking it.

[DjinnAndTonic]

You now have six (or whatever, number doesn't matter just that it's greater than one) characters fighting.  Yeah yeah damage averages out, but that's the ONLY thing that averages out.  Opponents with ST attacks now have to kill six people, and thus have to survive six turns even if they OHKO.  I shouldn't have to explain why this is bad.

Actually, opponents with ST attacks only have to kill the leader to kill the squad, which is kind of the whole reason why I see it as squad = leader.

If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that Vitali is now Vitali + 5 clerics.  No, this group here can both attack and heal AT THE SAME TIME.  Can Vitali do this in-game?  No.  You've gone beyond giving them more access to their skillsets to letting them do things they can't even do in-game.  I shouldn't have to explain why this is bad either.

This is a good point though.
My only reasoning against this is that free good healing every round is what makes Vitali awesome in-game, so it'd be nice to see it translated in the stat topic.
Side note: I was thinking Vitali+4 clerics, but whatever.

Also, this is all just hypothetical stuff as I don't think SN has even a little chance of getting ranked.

But there's even more interp things to consider besides my radical idea here.

Row switching mid-battle still seems like a decent thing to allow. We make some allowances for other games (VP1, GS, OB) along these lines, so it doesn't seem unreasonable as an interp. It's reflective of what available skillset they -do- have. Though I obviously see the argument against it, too.

What I don't see an argument against is disallowing Room and Decors. At the very least, the class-specific Decors should be legal. Yes, they're consumable, but they function like equipment and most are cheap storeboughts.
If not the Decors, then I still don't see the argument against the rooms, at least the ones that you're guaranteed to get in a straight playthrough. They are infinite and it's easy to find any room you want if you don't care about what kind of formation setup it has (and why would you when you only have to put one unit in it).

Tactics (Field skills) have an interesting interp problem. Do you see a character as able to use all of his Tactics on their first turn and then still attack? That's how it works in-game...

Counters are infinite in SN, I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed?

I guess the most interesting thing about the characters without squads... is probably the innate strengths/weaknesses they have against different classes.
Well, time to start hyping their innate class advantages that work like a giant clusterfuck of the FE Weapon Triangle.

For example, Grunsford is super-effective against Archers (and Saboteurs... so look out Jude!?). I don't know how effectively this WTA is, but it's pretty potent. (I'd guess around +75% for 2 Hearts? But I'm not sure).

Then the question becomes whether the SN character's opponent fits the description of 'Archer' or 'PyreMage'...

-Djinn

[Dhyerwolf]

We make some allowances for other games (VP1, GS, OB) along these lines, so it doesn't seem unreasonable as an interp. It's reflective of what available skillset they -do- have. Though I obviously see the argument against it, too.

I'm not sure what allowance GS gets, but at least in the case of VP, not making the allowance doesn't much change the cast overall. Mages get better, fighters don't get the PWS smash, but their other damage improves, and Lucian is even happier. Sounds like most people don't really make the allowance for OB though (And it rarely matters!) and SN sounds more locked into place.

[Talaysen]

Actually, opponents with ST attacks only have to kill the leader to kill the squad, which is kind of the whole reason why I see it as squad = leader.

I suppose that's true.  But there are still some cases where having more targets on the field changes things (random-targetting moves, focusing MT moves, etc.).

This is a good point though.
My only reasoning against this is that free good healing every round is what makes Vitali awesome in-game, so it'd be nice to see it translated in the stat topic.
Side note: I was thinking Vitali+4 clerics, but whatever.

Miakis is awesome in-game because she gets three runes slot early and can make good use of them.  Guess what she gets in the DL?  Jack shit.  It happens.

Also, this is all just hypothetical stuff as I don't think SN has even a little chance of getting ranked.

Obviously.

Row switching mid-battle still seems like a decent thing to allow. We make some allowances for other games (VP1, GS, OB) along these lines, so it doesn't seem unreasonable as an interp. It's reflective of what available skillset they -do- have. Though I obviously see the argument against it, too.

It is something people do with VP (I don't know what you're talking about with GS and OB) but I already disagree with it.  And not allowing row switching mid-battle is more closely to what happens in-game than allowing it.  Really can't see why you'd give them the ability to do something that they can't.

What I don't see an argument against is disallowing Room and Decors. At the very least, the class-specific Decors should be legal. Yes, they're consumable, but they function like equipment and most are cheap storeboughts.
If not the Decors, then I still don't see the argument against the rooms, at least the ones that you're guaranteed to get in a straight playthrough. They are infinite and it's easy to find any room you want if you don't care about what kind of formation setup it has (and why would you when you only have to put one unit in it).

Easy.  You know those storebought FF7 materia?  We don't allow those.  Storebought accessories?  Not those either.  An universal "accessory" twink option like this being argued against is NOTHING NEW.

As for class specific ones, I can see allowing those.  But IIRC they were all the same effect and just stat boosters so they don't actually help any.

Tactics (Field skills) have an interesting interp problem. Do you see a character as able to use all of his Tactics on their first turn and then still attack? That's how it works in-game...

I may be remembering wrong, but I don't think you could use a Tactic and attack in the same turn.  Or even use more than one.

Counters are infinite in SN, I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed?

Infinite?  What do you mean?

I guess the most interesting thing about the characters without squads... is probably the innate strengths/weaknesses they have against different classes.
Well, time to start hyping their innate class advantages that work like a giant clusterfuck of the FE Weapon Triangle.

For example, Grunsford is super-effective against Archers (and Saboteurs... so look out Jude!?). I don't know how effectively this WTA is, but it's pretty potent. (I'd guess around +75% for 2 Hearts? But I'm not sure).

Then the question becomes whether the SN character's opponent fits the description of 'Archer' or 'PyreMage'...

Now there's something useful to think about.

Start the Lunar2 Jean > Revya hype.

Dhyer: Not allowing VP energy carrryover does make a noticeable difference.  Lucian and Lenneth shoot to like 2xPCHP damage and everyone else gets better consistent damage in general (probably around twice as much).

[DjinnAndTonic]

Actually, opponents with ST attacks only have to kill the leader to kill the squad, which is kind of the whole reason why I see it as squad = leader.

I suppose that's true.  But there are still some cases where having more targets on the field changes things (random-targetting moves, focusing MT moves, etc.).

Really not much different than the multi-part bosses we have ranked. Though if one sees those as illegal, then yeah, ignore this.

This is a good point though.
My only reasoning against this is that free good healing every round is what makes Vitali awesome in-game, so it'd be nice to see it translated in the stat topic.
Side note: I was thinking Vitali+4 clerics, but whatever.

Miakis is awesome in-game because she gets three runes slot early and can make good use of them.  Guess what she gets in the DL?  Jack shit.  It happens.

Yeah, I know. Good point, but it's still a shame.

Also, this is all just hypothetical stuff as I don't think SN has even a little chance of getting ranked.

Obviously.

Just sayin'.

Row switching mid-battle still seems like a decent thing to allow. We make some allowances for other games (VP1, GS, OB) along these lines, so it doesn't seem unreasonable as an interp. It's reflective of what available skillset they -do- have. Though I obviously see the argument against it, too.

It is something people do with VP (I don't know what you're talking about with GS and OB) but I already disagree with it.  And not allowing row switching mid-battle is more closely to what happens in-game than allowing it.  Really can't see why you'd give them the ability to do something that they can't.

GS characters are given Djinni pretty regularly in the DL, even though Djinni are universal equips by the whole cast, none of them are initial equips, and there's not any actual plot sequences that state which Djinni belongs to whom. They are divvied out along elemental affinity, but I notice that CC characters don't get this same benefit, nor do Suiko scrubs with high elemental affinity for Runes.

OB I don't know very well, but I know that some people allow row-switching, which is what we're talking about here.

The reason I'd stretch things a bit to see it as legal is the same reason people allow VP1 to use PWS and GS to use Djinni - because it grants them access to more of their unique-ness.

Though obviously you don't see it this way, it's the reason I choose this interp.

What I don't see an argument against is disallowing Room and Decors. At the very least, the class-specific Decors should be legal. Yes, they're consumable, but they function like equipment and most are cheap storeboughts.
If not the Decors, then I still don't see the argument against the rooms, at least the ones that you're guaranteed to get in a straight playthrough. They are infinite and it's easy to find any room you want if you don't care about what kind of formation setup it has (and why would you when you only have to put one unit in it).

Easy.  You know those storebought FF7 materia?  We don't allow those.  Storebought accessories?  Not those either.  An universal "accessory" twink option like this being argued against is NOTHING NEW.

As for class specific ones, I can see allowing those.  But IIRC they were all the same effect and just stat boosters so they don't actually help any.

Every PC character in the game has a boss form at some point where they are in a set room with set equipment (and set support mooks). There's some decent equipment claim right there. I wasn't arguing against non-unique equips here, just that I thought consumable equips should be legal here.

Tactics (Field skills) have an interesting interp problem. Do you see a character as able to use all of his Tactics on their first turn and then still attack? That's how it works in-game...

I may be remembering wrong, but I don't think you could use a Tactic and attack in the same turn.  Or even use more than one.

Now I'm not sure myself. When I was discussing this the other day, someone told me this and I just accepted it as I haven't played SN in a while. I don't have my copy of the game to check, though I'm -think- you can use Tactics and attack in one turn.

Counters are infinite in SN, I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed?

Infinite?  What do you mean?

Just, no matter how many different units attack you in one turn, you will always counter. Unlike in Disgaea, where you have a set number of counters per turn. No FE-style doubling or anything like that, though.

I guess the most interesting thing about the characters without squads... is probably the innate strengths/weaknesses they have against different classes.
Well, time to start hyping their innate class advantages that work like a giant clusterfuck of the FE Weapon Triangle.

For example, Grunsford is super-effective against Archers (and Saboteurs... so look out Jude!?). I don't know how effectively this WTA is, but it's pretty potent. (I'd guess around +75% for 2 Hearts? But I'm not sure).

Then the question becomes whether the SN character's opponent fits the description of 'Archer' or 'PyreMage'...

Now there's something useful to think about.

Start the Lunar2 Jean > Revya hype.

Indeed.

-Djinn

[Talaysen]

Really not much different than the multi-part bosses we have ranked. Though if one sees those as illegal, then yeah, ignore this.

I allow those because they are parts of the bosses.  There's the difference.  And multi-part bosses get a durability penalty (usually) to me just by the way I scale boss HP anyways.

GS characters are given Djinni pretty regularly in the DL, even though Djinni are universal equips by the whole cast, none of them are initial equips, and there's not any actual plot sequences that state which Djinni belongs to whom. They are divvied out along elemental affinity, but I notice that CC characters don't get this same benefit, nor do Suiko scrubs with high elemental affinity for Runes.

Elemental affinity claim is much better than anything regarding this SN view.

OB I don't know very well, but I know that some people allow row-switching, which is what we're talking about here.

According to super, you can change rows on the map.

The reason I'd stretch things a bit to see it as legal is the same reason people allow VP1 to use PWS and GS to use Djinni - because it grants them access to more of their unique-ness.

Though obviously you don't see it this way, it's the reason I choose this interp.

And gives them access to things they can't do in-game.  And is unfair to other casts who rely on other characters to do things.

Now I'm not sure myself. When I was discussing this the other day, someone told me this and I just accepted it as I haven't played SN in a while. I don't have my copy of the game to check, though I'm -think- you can use Tactics and attack in one turn.

That someone must've been talking about the character's techniques, not tactics.  They can be used in addition to attacking but not infinitely.  And not on turn 1 anyways.

Every PC character in the game has a boss form at some point where they are in a set room with set equipment (and set support mooks). There's some decent equipment claim right there. I wasn't arguing against non-unique equips here, just that I thought consumable equips should be legal here.

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about then you get a hearty lol.  And it sure looked like you were arguing for non-unique equips.  That includes rooms.

Just, no matter how many different units attack you in one turn, you will always counter. Unlike in Disgaea, where you have a set number of counters per turn. No FE-style doubling or anything like that, though.

So they're FE-style.  "Infinite" was needlessly confusing.  Anyways, I'd do the same as I do for FE, allow both sides to counter.

[Sierra]

I think one person with them getting to choose a row each turn would be best. It allows each character to use all of their skillset, but doesn't punish them if they don't have an attack for a certain row like using squads would.

Ditto. This is pretty much how I treat OB in the DL, anyway.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Really not much different than the multi-part bosses we have ranked. Though if one sees those as illegal, then yeah, ignore this.

I allow those because they are parts of the bosses.  There's the difference.  And multi-part bosses get a durability penalty (usually) to me just by the way I scale boss HP anyways.

And I would allow squads because the actual unit you're using on the map is the leader, and then in battle, the squad works as multiple parts of the whole.

GS characters are given Djinni pretty regularly in the DL, even though Djinni are universal equips by the whole cast, none of them are initial equips, and there's not any actual plot sequences that state which Djinni belongs to whom. They are divvied out along elemental affinity, but I notice that CC characters don't get this same benefit, nor do Suiko scrubs with high elemental affinity for Runes.

Elemental affinity claim is much better than anything regarding this SN view.

Fair enough, I suppose. I started this topic to get some opinions, but you're the only one who really seems to have any strong opinions about it so far...

The reason I'd stretch things a bit to see it as legal is the same reason people allow VP1 to use PWS and GS to use Djinni - because it grants them access to more of their unique-ness.

Though obviously you don't see it this way, it's the reason I choose this interp.

And gives them access to things they can't do in-game.  And is unfair to other casts who rely on other characters to do things.

Are you talking about row-switching or squads-as-a-unit here? I was referring to row-switching, which wouldn't require other characters.

That someone must've been talking about the character's techniques, not tactics.  They can be used in addition to attacking but not infinitely.  And not on turn 1 anyways.

Just curious, but did you actually pop in the game and check? If you could confirm this, that'd be great.

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about then you get a hearty lol.

Well, alternately, we could just consider all the characters as their boss forms... it'd be easier in a stat topic, too now that I think about it.

So they're FE-style.  "Infinite" was needlessly confusing.  Anyways, I'd do the same as I do for FE, allow both sides to counter.

Sorry, I was thinking of Disgaea more than FE when I said 'infinite'.

-Djinn

[Luther Lansfeld]

If you were to do this, would you also apply this stuff to OB?

[Talaysen]

And I would allow squads because the actual unit you're using on the map is the leader, and then in battle, the squad works as multiple parts of the whole.

But squads are not part of the character.  I don't see how this distinction is hard...

Fair enough, I suppose. I started this topic to get some opinions, but you're the only one who really seems to have any strong opinions about it so far...

I think I'm just the only one replying, actually.

Are you talking about row-switching or squads-as-a-unit here? I was referring to row-switching, which wouldn't require other characters.

Squads.  Row-switching I disagree with but is more reasonable, I guess.

Just curious, but did you actually pop in the game and check? If you could confirm this, that'd be great.

I can't do that because mine's not a retail copy, so I'd have to transfer it over to my hard drive and that's a royal pain.

Well, alternately, we could just consider all the characters as their boss forms... it'd be easier in a stat topic, too now that I think about it.

No.  If characters have perfectly legal PC forms, you cannot just ignore them.  And explain to me when these boss forms are, since I think we're thinking of different things.

[superaielman]

KISS is almost always best when scaling something. I said it in passing on the PM you sent me but you're way, way overthinking this. This isn't the first game to lose something because the squad based elements of combat don't translate. It's not even close to the worst offender, as the actual formations and rooms have nothing to do with the PC's.

[Talaysen]

Yeah, just look at Ar tonelico.  Fighters lose all of their skillset and Reyvateils have horrible durability that doesn't even matter in game and can't charge up songs very far because of it.  That game is hit far far harder than Soul Nomad is.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Okay.

Your reasoning is sound. And while I still feel like my view on squards is acceptable, it is admittedly further from the 'normal' view the DL holds about how to interpret duellers than yours.

@Ciato: Note that I don't know much about OB, but I would certainly consider something like this for that game as well.

As for row-switching, I also agree with your point about it not being possible in-game, so therefore why allow it in the DL. However, because I like more potential variety in my duellers in their ability to use their skillsets, I would allow it. Notably, I would also allow the AT1 cast to use their skillsets as if they had a Reyvateil to charge the Harmonics bar (or whatever it was called). Unfortunately, we don't even have numbers for that...

I also allow VP1/2 characters to charge their PWS's. It's all in the name of unique-ness, which you can disagree with, but that's how I feel. I -did- ask for your opinion, and I'm willing to interpret things that way too. But these were my initial ideas that came to mind when I started thinking about a stat topic.

If everyone's against these ideas, then making a stat topic following this format doesn't help anyone but me (which means I may still make it at some point anyway, but that's neither here nor there).

Taking that into account, that means I need numbers on how much the WTA affects performance, as that's really their only interesting feature. (Well, and Revya has Demon Force).

SPOILER-Y
@Tal: The boss forms I was thinking about were probably the same ones your thinking of. The ones from near the end of the Demon path. I can see why split-path boss forms are inferior to normal main PCs, but it is awfully convenient that they all -have- a boss form with clear equips and rooms (and it's not as if PCs aren't ever allowed their boss forms in the DL...). Also, I wanted to use this topic to discuss ideas, so even if you think it's a horrible idea, I don't see the harm in bringing it up.
SPOIL+ERY

-Djinn

[superaielman]

Demon path is 100% not legal in the DL. It's a NG+ mode.

[Fudozukushi]

Demon path is 100% not legal in the DL. It's a NG+ mode.

Damn, no Raksha for Godlike hype.

[Talaysen]

Okay.

Your reasoning is sound. And while I still feel like my view on squards is acceptable, it is admittedly further from the 'normal' view the DL holds about how to interpret duellers than yours.

It's not that it's unacceptable, it's that it is unfair to every other game that is nerfed in a solo system because you don't give all of those the same benefit.

Let's take your At1 example there.  Sure, you give fighters their abilities.  But what about reyvateils?  Do they get the benefit of someone taking damage for them like they do in-game?  No, they don't.  And if you did that, that would also be unfair for obvious reasons.  WA4 Jude has Joint Struggle that's about 4x as strong in-game, and the rest of the WA4 characters have Crisis skills.  CT/CC/WA4/WA5 all have combo attacks.  Throw in entire Suikoden series as well there.  I could go on and on about games that are screwed over by duelling alone/DL scaling.  It happens.  If you try to accommodate it for one game, you're being unfair to every other game out there that has those issues.  And there are a LOT of those.

And yeah, you still get a huge lol for mentioning those bosses.  NG+ optional stuff is not legal.  Period.