Soul Nomad: Musings on a potential stat topic idea.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Personally, I see Demon Path as more of 'the second half of the game' rather than just optional content. But I'm probably alone on this.

Anyway, taking all of Tal's advice to heart. With the fortuitous arrival of my copy of Soul Nomad from America (I Love You, Mom!), I had a few moments to look over the specifics of my endgame group.

As it turns out, Danette, Layna, and Revya are incapable of having their Field Tactics charges increased by adding -any- generic units, so they count as unique classes.

Also, I don't have a save with the temps Levin, King Medeus(sp?) and Walnut. And I'm not sure which bosses would be worth stat-topiccing.

I also scoured the Decor(Equipment) list, and the only Decor worth mentioning is the universal stat-blocker, which is storebought, cheap, and consumable (though it stays equipped for a full battle). However, since one of these can technically work on up to 9 characters at a time, and they cost a measely 500G (endgame is about 5000000G?), it seems fair to consider this legal.

I'll do some tests on characters' Match Lists, but the in-game Help files break it down as Melee>Ranged>Magic>Melee. Tricia > mages hype begins.

Vitali and Pinot are classed as 'Special' (healers), and don't fit into the Match triangle. But I think they have innate Match advantages against certain classes, which I'll have to test.

I'm assuming that all characters counter, a la Fire Emblem.

-Djinn

[Cmdr_King]

Just a few notes.  My general sentiment is that, while I understand Djinn's general thought process, it's simply overcomplicating the game and making an exception against a number of existing preceedents without adequate cause.  Pity, shit happens though.

That said, Demon Path is an interesting case.  It is indeed aftergame, and can only be accessed on a 2nd cycle, so for the sake of consistency your typical old guard DLer is going to reject it.  But from a gameplay perspective, it is indeed a natural continuation of the game, noticably scaled to be managable at levels beginning from a party which has successfully completed the main quest.  Given this and that there is a significant amount of plot to be gleaned, it's understandable that people who haven't been here from the beginning to have that kneejerk against aftergame (which developed out of contesting things like voting on Dark Valkyrie from the SG as Hrist, and indeed the SG's complete alteration of gameplay balance in general) might consider it viable to vote on.    Which isn't to say it's necessarily a valid reason to make an exception, just that I can see why people might and don't think tearing their heads off over it is appropriate.  Which in turn means it's another wrinkle in ranking a game that has rather a few already.

Also, although I'm not sure it'll actually save you any work, you can in fact recruit Endorph permanently.  If you use his and Revya's combo enough times to get his ending, he'll rejoin right before the final series of battles.  The same may be true of the other major temp, but I'm less certain here.  Anyone happen to know?

[Fudozukushi]

Endorph and Levin can both rejoin for the final of the game if their "points" with Revya are high enough.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Just a few notes.  My general sentiment is that, while I understand Djinn's general thought process, it's simply overcomplicating the game and making an exception against a number of existing preceedents without adequate cause.  Pity, shit happens though.

Right, I've argued my case for it, response was negative, so I'm moving on.

Can I ask for a general consensus of endgame levels?

My Revya is at Lv56.

I don't have either of the two temps (Levin and Endorph) and I don't have a save before the one notable guest (King Median). So if someone wants these numbers in the stat topic, then I ask that someone contribute them, as I have enough work ahead of me just levelling all the non-Revya PCs up to 56.

Lujie and Median's PC forms are obviously aftergame (it's hard to get them even during Demon Path).

Any other interp calls that need addressing? Notable bosses? (Is the final even rankable?)

Oh, I should note this here. I've discovered that the PCs and their corresponding generics actually have slightly different Special skills as Leader, so the PC cast is slightly more interesting than I had initially assumed, even without Squads or Row-switching mid-battle.

-Djinn

[Fudozukushi]

Thuris is the most rankable World Eater.  I should have a save around the time for Median.  Don't count on me actually getting it though.  Unsure where all my crap is at the moment.

[Cmdr_King]

Lujei and Median's PC forms are obviously aftergame (it's hard to get them even during Demon Path).

Impossible, actually.  Basically, on a second cycle, an expensive (5 million whatevers) item called Reveal Path 1 will appear in the shop.  If you buy this before... map 37 I believe it is, you'll get additional scenes that let you open up Lujei's fight.  She starts at level 30, maybe a few levels behind typical for that point in the game, so either you took that ending against the first Feinne fight orrr she's so far behind it's probably not worth it to level her up.  Anyway, once you get her... Reveal Path 2 shows up in the shop.  Same cost, having it in your inventory unlocks additional scenes around map 25 which unlocks the Median fight.  He's like level 2000 <.<  And, as you'll note Reveal Path 2 must be used earlier than 1, it's essentially restricted to a third cycle.
And of course both are on the main path, and thus can't be used on the Demon Path.

Mind you, without having done it to be sure, I SUSPECT that Median is pretty similar mechanically to Geshtahl, but maybe not.

[Talaysen]

Don't bother with matches.  http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/935509/50427

And for the record, whether or not you allow counters or the stat blocker doesn't really matter.  You can jsut list it and people can just disallow it if they want, and lose nothing from the info in the topic.  Only interp calls that deal with stats/damage skills/equipment (basically stuff that affects averages) really matter.  Anything else questionable you can just make a note on and let the reader decide.

Lujei can be got on a "first" playthrough by taking a bad end on like map 3 and restarting.  Don't really think that counts myself, but it's the only form she has, so listing it can't hurt (just don't put her into averages).  Of course if you don't want to make the effort, don't bother.

Endgame level is probably supposed to be around 40 or so.  I was ~80 myself, so whatever.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Lujei can be got on a "first" playthrough by taking a bad end on like map 3 and restarting.  Don't really think that counts myself, but it's the only form she has, so listing it can't hurt (just don't put her into averages).  Of course if you don't want to make the effort, don't bother.

Endgame level is probably supposed to be around 40 or so.  I was ~80 myself, so whatever.

I don't have Lujei on this save, so I'll probably skip her.

Notably, I went through the game without Merging or altering stats, and LV56 ended up being a bit low I believe. So I'm guessing Lv40 is endgame if you're eating Townspeople and such?

-Djinn

[Talaysen]

Well, the endgame enemies are like mid-30s.  The final boss is like 40 or something.  I imagine if you use good decor/unit setups and strategy you can get by just fine.  Game gives you lots of options.

Also, about that Merging thing.  It's unique to Revya.  So allow it or not?

[Pyro]

Incomplete stat topic I started a while back is attached.

Very incomplete.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Is there any way you could upload that in a format I could read?

A .doc, a .xls? I tried downloading a program to read .ods files, but it failed miserably.

[Talaysen]

Is there any way you could upload that in a format I could read?

A .doc, a .xls? I tried downloading a program to read .ods files, but it failed miserably.

Go download OpenOffice.

Here's a .xls though.  Still, get OpenOffice.

Edit: I hope nothing got lost in conversion. I don't have Microsoft Office so I can't check.

[DjinnAndTonic]

The .xls looks intact. Level 35 at endgame? Well, I suppose with lots of Decors and Merging, it becomes easier.

I finally figured out the problem of how to standardize what I do damage testing against.

Inspections, of course. And attacking home-made allies units designed not to attack back, but which heal themselves. Makes keeping track of defense values really easy. Also, there's a Decor which nullifies Match bonuses, so I can plow through without worrying about as many modifiers. And in Inspection-land, Decors aren't used up and GP isn't spent on summoning units, so I can freely use these things repeatedly.

Stats seem to increase linearly, so it should be entirely possible to extrapolate statistical data for whatever endgame level you choose. I'm going to use L56 for all characters because that's where my main is.

I would assume damage numbers scale up and down similarly.

All Field Tactics take 5 STM to use. Except possibly Demon Force, which I haven't been able to test yet. But I suspect it's also 5 STM.
Moving takes 1 STM per tile.
Normal attacking takes 5 STM.
Normal attacking + a Special attack finisher also takes only 5 STM.
Waiting recovers between 10-20 STM.
Special attacks (and Combo attacks) can only be used at 80% STM and under.
At less than 50% STM, PCs' stats begin to scale down (I have yet to determine how much they scale down as STM decreases).

[Talaysen]

Stats seem to increase linearly, so it should be entirely possible to extrapolate statistical data for whatever endgame level you choose. I'm going to use L56 for all characters because that's where my main is.

I would assume damage numbers scale up and down similarly.

Pretty sure this is the case.  Buying units at higher levels make every fifth level statless, so they end up around 80% as good on stats.

Damage should be linear too, but raising the ATK stat affects damage before defense, so it's not as simple as just multiplying by the difference in stats.

Waiting recovers between 10-20 STM.

This is probably a percentage of STM.

[Sierra]

Re: endgame levels? Some of the numbers thrown around in here look pretty nuts to me. I think my highest PC (Juno) was level 30, with the rest of the army trailing in the late twenties. I'd always considered 30 a reasonable average level for endgame. This is basically what you wind up with if you don't abuse inspections (it's really not necessary in the main path, which makes it an aftergame mechanic as far as I'm concerned). Enemy levels being notably higher than PC levels is pretty normal for N1 endgames, and I had no significant difficulty beating the game at these levels.

That's main cycle, of course. Demon path levels were substantially higher.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Re: endgame levels? Some of the numbers thrown around in here look pretty nuts to me. I think my highest PC (Juno) was level 30, with the rest of the army trailing in the late twenties. I'd always considered 30 a reasonable average level for endgame. This is basically what you wind up with if you don't abuse inspections (it's really not necessary in the main path, which makes it an aftergame mechanic as far as I'm concerned). Enemy levels being notably higher than PC levels is pretty normal for N1 endgames, and I had no significant difficulty beating the game at these levels.

That's main cycle, of course. Demon path levels were substantially higher.

Well, my first playthrough of the game (the save I'm working from now), I definitely needed the Lv56-ish range. Perhaps because I had poorly-set-up squads, but I was definitely struggling endgame.

I can make a bunch of lower-level generics to test against the final boss if people think my level is far too high, though.

-Djinn

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Endgame levels are on the L35 range. It's just that SN makes it too easy to overlevel due to inspections. L56 would probably be overkillish as is, I know I was having a L50 Danette squad solo the universe by then.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Endgame levels are on the L35 range. It's just that SN makes it too easy to overlevel due to inspections. L56 would probably be overkillish as is, I know I was having a L50 Danette squad solo the universe by then.

L56 shouldn't be a problem for the purposes of the stat topic, though, right? As long as all the PCs are the same Lvl, since stats increase linearly, the difference in the averages should be preserved.

If my math is correct anyway?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Weeeeeeeell, yes if the damage equation is indeed linear. It may end up inflating things if not.

[Talaysen]

Pretty sure the damage equation is linear.  Is in every other N1 game as well.

It does sort of matter, though.  Characters with below average damage will be higher at L56 than at L30, since they overwhelm defense better (as does everyone).  Likewise, characters with above average damage will be lower.  Not a huge deal since they won't shift places in the damage curve, it just makes the curve tighter.

STM values grow with levels too, IIRC, and apparently STM loss through actions is constant, so characters need to spend more actions doing worthless stuff (basic physicals) before getting to use their skills.  Likewise, it'll take them longer to get below the 50% STM mark for stat reductions.  This is probably the most serious of the changes.

Considering how easy it is to level, I honestly don't see any problem with using the L56 characters, but whatever.

[DjinnAndTonic]

It does sort of matter, though.  Characters with below average damage will be higher at L56 than at L30, since they overwhelm defense better (as does everyone).  Likewise, characters with above average damage will be lower.  Not a huge deal since they won't shift places in the damage curve, it just makes the curve tighter.

I'm using L50 generic allies as a stable testing point, shouldn't this standardize the testing DEF point such that it's not a problem?

STM values grow with levels too, IIRC, and apparently STM loss through actions is constant, so characters need to spend more actions doing worthless stuff (basic physicals) before getting to use their skills.  Likewise, it'll take them longer to get below the 50% STM mark for stat reductions.  This is probably the most serious of the changes.

Well, if it's -that- big of a problem, Pyro's already provided the L35 stats, including STM.

-Djinn

[Talaysen]

I'm using L50 generic allies as a stable testing point, shouldn't this standardize the testing DEF point such that it's not a problem?

Not really.  It's not really indicative of what they're doing against endgame enemies (which is typically what we use in the DL), which could have DEF higher or lower than endgame allies and have different DEF/RES splits.  And if ATK growths are different than DEF growths, that can change things too.  As well as a lot of factors.  Also, if you're using generics bought at L50, they have astats of L40 guys anyways.

If the DEF/RES split is about that of endgame enemies, then it's probably a better testing target than endgame enemies for L56 though.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'm using L50 generic allies as a stable testing point, shouldn't this standardize the testing DEF point such that it's not a problem?

Note that I'm literally using the same generic squad for all testing and not allowing it to level up.

I picked units that had relatively equal DEF/RES spreads and were about the same as endgame enemy DEF/RES, though it's a little lower.

-Djinn

[DjinnAndTonic]

Okay.

Trying to test the final boss, but not sure what kind of party to consider against him.

At this point in the game, you can make up to 9 squads of 9.

That's a little ridiculously expensive, and I'm not sure the game rewards having that number of units.

It would be trivial to set it up such that all nine could attack the final in a single round, so I suppose this is what I should consider him against, but I'm not sure how representative that kind of team would be.

Also, shouldn't a healing team of some sort be included? Or a buffing team?

And what's the standard procedure on boss support? He starts with 9 squads. And for each squad, he gets a 100-level boost. I would throw all of these out as no first-playthrough team is going to stand a chance against that.

Alternately, if you allow that kind of boss support, then that means an opponent would have to finish off all of his squads before even thinking about taking him on personally (or they'd have to be Ghaleon/Myria1). Sounds like unrankably high Bluelike. But I don't think anyone would take that kind of boss support seriously as the squads are fairly trivial to deal with in-game (they're like level 30-ish, while the final itself is level [9]42).

Also, what level team is the consensus?

-Djinn


EDIT: Oh. Interesting note: I was comparing Pyro's numbers and my own -  STM and ACT at level 35 are the same for all story PCs at level 56. So there's no worries about changing a unit's limit range.

Speaking of turns, though. There's a number of characters which double the turn meter with alarming frequency. And a lot of them can buff their ACT (which is both movement AND turnspeed, while the SPD stat is merely evasion) to triple the turn meter easily. Not sure how to take this as the Turn meter and enemy speed aren't exactly the same thing... And the ACT spread isn't particularly high. There's pretty much only 2 kinds of speed - really fast PCs who double regularly and can triple on occasion - and slow punks who barely get one turn per Turn meter.

[Talaysen]

Okay.

Trying to test the final boss, but not sure what kind of party to consider against him.

At this point in the game, you can make up to 9 squads of 9.

That's a little ridiculously expensive, and I'm not sure the game rewards having that number of units.

Because Soul Nomad doesn't give you excess amounts of cash at endgame...  No, the cash isn't the problem, it's the resetting for 9-slot rooms.

It would be trivial to set it up such that all nine could attack the final in a single round, so I suppose this is what I should consider him against, but I'm not sure how representative that kind of team would be.

Also, shouldn't a healing team of some sort be included? Or a buffing team?

Generally bosses are taken against EVERYONE dealing damage as fast as they can.  Healers and buffers are generally considered to be attacking, although this sometimes isn't possible in SN.  Personally I'd just not consider them in this case.

And what's the standard procedure on boss support? He starts with 9 squads. And for each squad, he gets a 100-level boost. I would throw all of these out as no first-playthrough team is going to stand a chance against that.

Alternately, if you allow that kind of boss support, then that means an opponent would have to finish off all of his squads before even thinking about taking him on personally (or they'd have to be Ghaleon/Myria1). Sounds like unrankably high Bluelike. But I don't think anyone would take that kind of boss support seriously as the squads are fairly trivial to deal with in-game (they're like level 30-ish, while the final itself is level [9]42).

No support.

EDIT: Oh. Interesting note: I was comparing Pyro's numbers and my own -  STM and ACT at level 35 are the same for all story PCs at level 56. So there's no worries about changing a unit's limit range.

Well that's one less problem.

Speaking of turns, though. There's a number of characters which double the turn meter with alarming frequency. And a lot of them can buff their ACT (which is both movement AND turnspeed, while the SPD stat is merely evasion) to triple the turn meter easily. Not sure how to take this as the Turn meter and enemy speed aren't exactly the same thing... And the ACT spread isn't particularly high. There's pretty much only 2 kinds of speed - really fast PCs who double regularly and can triple on occasion - and slow punks who barely get one turn per Turn meter.

And?  Do what we always do, average up speed.  This isn't anything new.  Not the first CTB game to have global "rounds", but most just hide them.