Random Mafia - Be Afraid...Very Afraid

[Smodge13]

And how people are backing off Smodge for a vanilla roleclaim I'll never know.  I mean, if he was suspicious before enough for you to vote for him, how does his sudden vanilla-ness make him less so?  I mean, if he changes you mind by his arguments, then that's one thing.  But a vanilla roleclaim alone?  Could someone explain the logic of why that should change a person's vote?  Please?

I would still like a response to this for people.  I know my mind hasn't changed yet.  ##Vote Smodge

I think it was my name more than my role, Hercule fits in with my theory of the pattern which was what a lot of people were voting for me for.
Then again i could be wrong.

[EvilTom]

Either doc knows an innocent, or roleblocker knows that they hit scum.

Or bulletproof worked. Lots of possibilities. Roles shouldn't come out.

This is a good thing for us, especially if it's the roleblocker.

Smodge... it's as he says. I don't see why he would have put that theory out unless he had something solid to back it up.. and Hercule/Mr Satan is really the core of uselessness. From there it's easy to see where he put together Sir Robin and Carth's impotent guy. Then again, maybe OK provided a bunch of fake nameclaims? Or maybe he made it up as he went along. Smodge's pattern theory proves nothing, scum or town. I'm going to ignore the theory itself for now, and look at the train.

My concern is still Excal.. is it really just a frustrated towny? Or is it the work of scum trying to push the train over the edge?
I asked the same sort of questions here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=300.msg3589#msg3589 and I'd like some opinions from others on Excal.. I know Yakumo supports Excal on that, but is it part of some deeper scum ploy or is it just mafia grievances?

Also, I want to hear more from Tai and Andrew. And Ciato. You guys/girls have been a little quiet recently.

I don't have anything to vote on yet, but I think it's too early to let Smodge hang before we've questioned other possibilities.
Just have to wait for them. I don't sleep, I wait.

[Smodge13]

Excals thing does concern me a little, it seems more frustrated town to me though.

What i'm curious about

Smodge wants to tip it
even though he won't be here
in case of roleclaim.

This makes Smodge look worse!

Alex this makes me look worse apparently?

But Excals

Yeah...  I've mostly been quiet because I've been really frazzled for the last day, and Discworld, which I haven't been playing that well in over this time period either, has been demanding what little brain power I do have.  Anyways, just as a heads up, I am going to be sufficiently busy that I won't have time to read the thread today, which is a shame as it looks like there's some nuance going on in the arguments against Smodge.  Nuance I haven't been able to fully grasp (something about trying to foist a pattern on us that may, or may not, be utterly bogus?) and so I'm not really inclined to comment, or even really vote on him.

Thing is, I also have mostly null reads on everyone else too.  I mean, that's why I placed that vote on Zenny.  He wasn't talking when I placed it, and he had less votes than Otter.  And, given that I'm not going to be back today (Well, very late...  day may or may not be over by then, and even if it is, I have work early tomorrow as well, so I won't be able to stay up late thinking on two games) I may as well try and make a vote now.

So, what reasoning do I use?  Who I trust more.  Now, I know for a fact that the way QR is acting is the way she'd be acting if she were town, scum, or third party.  But....  that doesn't change the fact that it's good solid town behaviour, paired in with the fact that Andy looks pretty innocuous from what I can tell.  That leaves Smodge as the only other person gaining votes, so...

##Vote: Smodge13

Deserves no comment?

So Excal voting and then going away for a fair while is forgivable and doesn't even raise comment despite the fact that he admittedly didn't even read the thread.
However My own vote on Otter who turned out scum made me look worse because i wouldn't be back before deadline?

[Luther Lansfeld]

Augh that move just pisses me off something fierce. At least give us the chance to lynch someone instead of being selfish -_-. Even a modkill would have at least given us a chance to lynch scum.

EvilTom, why did you vote for him after that, might I ask? Wouldn't it be more logical to let him be modkilled? More later, I have math homework for right now.

[Smodge13]

Something i also just realized

Ciato's

All of his "detailed analysis" have been focusing on one singular target.  I really strongly disagree with this being any type of town vibe at all; quite the contary in my view, in fact. Targetting someone who twists their words around themselves at times --> profit for scum.

The 2 people who have done that are both Andrew and Alex.

So seeing as both of you are probably still going to vote for me anyway, can we at least have your thoughts on others at the same time?

The focus on one person combined with the lack of comments on Excals vote makes Alex look fairly bad to me.

[EvilTom]

EvilTom, why did you vote for him after that, might I ask? Wouldn't it be more logical to let him be modkilled? More later, I have math homework for right now.

You're right, but I was pretty angry after the same thing had just happened twice in Discworld. I also thought that there might be a chance that it was a scum trick to stem the votes, but I was mostly angry at his attitude. Besides, you could ask the same of anyone who'd voted him before me (and they'd probably give the same answer).

So Excal voting and then going away for a fair while is forgivable and doesn't even raise comment despite the fact that he admittedly didn't even read the thread.

Actually I raised issue about that earlier too, and never got a response.

[Dhyerwolf]

While Excal's not reading the topic doesn't reflect upon him well at all, it would also theoretically mean that he probably didn't know how many voters were on Smodge at the time. However, read the topic! Participate on some level! We already saw that checking out only serves to misdirect town yesterday.

As for Alex and Andrew focusing most of their attention on Smodge, he seemed to be the one that hit their radar the hardest by far, so it does makes sense that they would mostly focus on him. That said, Smodge did seem to think that he saw a pattern, even though it was a really big stretch. It could have been a smokescreen, but my guess is that he really thought he saw something there.

[Excal]

As much as I'd love to Dhyer, I can't seem to think straight at the moment.  Coherent thought, though possible, is also greatly curtailed at the moment.  Basically, I seem to be able to focus on a particular link in a chain of thought, but am unable to contain both the link and the beginning, or even the end.  ie.  I'm not able to muse or mull over ideas at the moment, but can simply focus on one or two elements of an argument at a time.

Though, at least here the arguments are still simple things.  Over in Discworld my life is on the line, and trying to grasp any of the arguments there at the moment is an exercise in magnificent frustration.  So...  yeah, good timing for this all around.

Anyways, I'll reread a bit, see if I can't find something here.  But...  yeah, don't expect too much from me tonight.

[Luther Lansfeld]

EvilTom, why did you vote for him after that, might I ask? Wouldn't it be more logical to let him be modkilled? More later, I have math homework for right now.

You're right, but I was pretty angry after the same thing had just happened twice in Discworld. I also thought that there might be a chance that it was a scum trick to stem the votes, but I was mostly angry at his attitude. Besides, you could ask the same of anyone who'd voted him before me (and they'd probably give the same answer).

Zenny didn't reveal the full information until everyone but yourself had voted, which is why I directed my comments at you and not others.

Excal's disturbing me slightly, but not as much as Alex/Andrew and their stuffs.

[EvilTom]

True. I guess I was just angry and wanted to get rid of him quickly for wasting everybody's time. In hindsight, calling for a modkill was probably smarter, but I guess the end result is the same.
>>>

You know, Excal hasn't been paying attention, which at first I found suspicious... but now.. I'm starting to put it down to 'bored vanilla townie with better things to do in Discworld'. Which could be why he jumped on the Smodge bandwagon without even reading the thread.

I'd like to compare that to Tai: it's been 5 pages and nearly 2 days real time since we heard from Tai; meanwhile, he's been busy over in discworld since.. now that I look back at it, page 9 where he did.. nothing much. He basically spoke out against Smodge, throwing wood on the fire, but not a vote? In fact, the last time we heard from him before that, was when he placed a vote on Zenny in day 1 (instead of the scum Otter).
The more I look at it, the worse it seems. Since Ciato is talking again (and Andrew is being quiet but not lurking), I'm going to go after this sus lurker fellow and force him to say something.

##Vote: Tai

[Excal]

##Vote: Evil Tom

Vanilla Townie never has nothing to do in the day.  Never!  Ideally, vanilla town should be able to win the game without roles.  That said, we usually have so many roles, that we can lean on them like a crutch.  But that doesn't mean that the Vanilla folks are just bystanders, here to sit around and do jack all.

Now, as for why I'm not doing much, it's because I've been unable to think clearly the last few days due to a double whammy of apathy and very persistent headaches that make focusing on the convoluted thought chains and minor tells you need to focus on for these games very difficult.  So, instead of making things worse, I've been avoiding diving in.  Instead, I've been skimming the threads, and hoping that sooner or later I'll start being able to process what's going on here properly again.

I apologize for not being to take part fully at the moment.  But should be good to continue again in a day or two.

[Smodge13]

I'm starting to put it down to 'bored vanilla townie with better things to do in Discworld'.

Wait, huh when did Excals role ever come into this?.
Better yet how do you know if he is Vanilla or not?

Anyone else think that comment makes Tom look like scum and that they possibly have a rolecop?

[Smodge13]

Posts from Tai would also be very useful at some point.

[EvilTom]

But that doesn't mean that the Vanilla folks are just bystanders, here to sit around and do jack all.
...
I apologize for not being to take part fully at the moment.  But should be good to continue again in a day or two.

What the hell? I tried to rationalize reasons for your negligence *other* than the explanation that you're scum, and you accuse me of advocating your mistakes? That's bull. If anything, your vote against me when you havn't even been paying attention on top of your vote for Smodge without reading that *either* is looking pretty damn crap. I'm doing my best trying to figure out who the real scum are, and you admit that you're not paying attention to the game but you're more than happy to throw votes around? I never said anything about relying on roles, and I'm certainly not saying that we should sit around and do nothing.

I won't suffer your town-wrotism. Either you completely misunderstood the intention of my post, or you've intentionally tried to put the focus onto me rather than on yourself (or Tai).

Tai may be lurking, but you're sounding full of crap right now. Just as I was doubting my suspicions of you, you've fully reinstated them. You'd better start looking over your actions and pay attention to what's going on.

##Unvote: Tai
##Vote: Excal

A new post-
Smodge:
What the?
Well that's two people who have miscontrued my post (either that or working together, whatever).
I never said Excal was a vanilla towny; I said that it seemed like he was disintrested in the game. You'd better go read what I said.
How the hell does that comment make me look like scum?

[Smodge13]

Ah i see, i read it as if you were actually saying he WAS vanilla, which got me thinking along the lines of scum rolecop.

[Yakumo]

You know, Excal hasn't been paying attention, which at first I found suspicious... but now.. I'm starting to put it down to 'bored vanilla townie with better things to do in Discworld'. Which could be why he jumped on the Smodge bandwagon without even reading the thread.

Emphasis added by this unit.

Analysis suggests that while you did not specifically state meatbag Excal had no role, heavy implication was indeed present.  Continued insistance that this was not the case does not relieve suspicion.

[Yakumo]

Upon further review, suspicion from Dread Thomas toward meatbag titled Taishyr based on extremely tenuous evidence.  Meatbag Taishyr not posting much in any topic in recent days.  Only posts yesterday also during night phase of this game.  Also, Dread Thomas appeared earlier to be giving meatbag Excal free pass for virtually identical reasoning, meatbag who was focusing on Discworld game to an extent which downgraded performance in this game.  Evidence against Dread Thomas mounting.

##Vote: EvilTom

[AndrewRogue]

Protip: If you are a bored townie/scum and want to leave the game, get modkilled. Whichever side you are on, you are hurting it far more by getting lynched than modkilled.

Onto the game proper. No kill is good! Yay!

My Zenny theory was very wrong, which still leaves a difficult in question in "why did Otter self lynch." At this point, I'm attempted to claim, in irritation, "because a number of players aren't trying." I'll let it sit now, though.

Smodge still looks the worst to me for the same reasons as yesterday but, bleh. I need some time to digest all the posts today. Will get back to this.

[OblivionKnight]

Vote count before I leave for bed...

1) Quietrain
2) Tai (0): <EvilTom>
3) EvilTom (2): Excal, Yakumo
4) Smodge (1): Alex,
5) Dhyerwolf  
6) Alex  
7) Yakumo  
8) Ciato
9) Meeple
10) Andrew
11) Excal (1): EvilTom

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to kill.

Day 3 will end on Tuesday, January 15th at ~8:30pm EST (in ~44 hours).  If no majority is reached for a kill, then the day will end with NO KILL.

[EvilTom]

To Yakumo (and Excal)

You know, Excal hasn't been paying attention, which at first I found suspicious... but now.. I'm starting to put it down to 'bored vanilla townie with better things to do in Discworld'. Which could be why he jumped on the Smodge bandwagon without even reading the thread.

Analysis suggests that while you did not specifically state meatbag Excal had no role, heavy implication was indeed present.

'starting to put it down to' ≠ heavy implication; it's a tenuous theory. It looks like you're trying to misrepresent my words in order to make me look guilty.

Continued insistance that this was not the case does not relieve suspicion.

But it doesn't increase it either. Still looks like you're trying to make me look guilty.

suspicion from Dread Thomas toward meatbag titled Taishyr based on extremely tenuous evidence.

Wow, you really like doing this. You can misrepresent my wording, but you can't argue with the facts. 5 pages of forum, two days, and Tai hasn't been around for any of it. Tenuous evidence? You like putting your spin on facts.

giving meatbag Excal free pass for virtually identical reasoning, meatbag who was focusing on Discworld game to an extent which downgraded performance in this game.  Evidence against Dread Thomas mounting.

So you say. This is the.. fifth time you've misrepresented my words in order to make me look bad. Spin again? I didn't give him a free pass at all. I simply decided that Tai warranted a vote more than Excal, because unlike Tai, Excal has been present in the thread.

It looks like you're most definately trying to remove suspicion from Excal in an attempt to make me look bad. Why's that? Are you sure he's town? Or perhaps you're both scum?

Both you and Excal supported the quickhammer train attempt on Smodge - pro-scum move
Excal hasn't been paying attention to the thread - classic scumtell
You're coming to his defense in order to deflect attention on myself, a strategy which you know will put me on the defensive - another good scum tactic.

Everyone knows that I 'explode' (in the words of Alex) when accused; so what's your motive now? Why are you so desperately trying to save Excal by incriminating me?

[Taishyr]

I am sick and fairly exhausted right now. I understand your concern, however, EvilTom. I... argh. I'm sick enough to not really be able to make connections as quickly as I normally would - this, plus my differing hours, combines to make me one of the quieter people perforce.

However, rereading day 1, day 2 and today...

My comment to Smodge was questioning this "connection" between roles that was not obvious in any form to me at the time. It was not an attempt to "throw wood on the fire", it was an honest question. And you're jumping on me for this, even though you yourself seem to have been far more suspicious of this behavior, here, than I expressed.

Yes, I've been effectively non-present. This is true. I apologize. This does not mean you can throw dirt at me that isn't true, and expect it to stand. I find this jump from the person who posted with what was, apparently to many people, a rather suspicious statement, to the lurker... who called him out on that statement, more than a touch suspicious.

Who else am I eyeing? Alex: the attack in day 1 on Smodge seems off in general. Until late, where he began openly admitting curiousity about the roles (which earns him slot 3 on my suspicion list, idly), the attack didn't feel like it had little grounding, it felt like it had none at all. Two people, from the get go, begin speaking (we presume) quite possibly according to their roles, from the get-go. ...You -don't- expect this to draw odd looks and bizarre speculation from anyone? Concerned townie or pouncing scum? Quite frankly, I consider either equally possible, especially in your vaunted day 1 where suspicion is all you have.

Another thing I think will irritate me is all the jumping on me for my posting hours. I tend to post within a more narrow timeline than most of you here; it was about 21 hours before my last post in this topic and the hammer of day 2. In terms of number of pages? Yes. It was a long time. In terms of how much time passed? I'm sick and I'm damn well unfocused, I appreciate the concern but please do note things like this before you directly accuse me of lurking. I try to post when I can and when I have something to say, and while I usually do have something to say, I don't always have the time available to me.

So. Vote will follow this soon, I plan. But right now I'm looking at this and it looks solely like a fragfest.

[EvilTom]

Sorry Tai, I'd forgotten you were sick; thanks for the input.

[Smodge13]

Um Quick point out to mod, OK i'm on 2 votes not 1, QR also has voted for me.

Dont want town miscounting again ^_^

[Meeplelard]

Excal has a good point about Vanilla Townie.  Yes, they don't serve any *SPECIFIC* roles, but that doesn't mean they're not important.

If someone is a good player and good at analyzing, yet is a Vanilla townie with no power roles whatsoever...they're still helpful for finding who we need in the general playing area.  Roles are there to push things in our favor further, such like a Doc for blind attempt to make sure one of us who we think/know is town is doesn't die, or Cop to help find the actual scum, etc.  They also generally make the game more interesting rather than "Scum get one kill a night, town gets one lynch, FIND THE SCUM BASED ENTIRELY ON ANALYTICAL SKILLS AND CONVERSATION!"

Yes, losing a Power Role hurts more than losing a Vanilla Townie...but that doesn't make them expendable.  Every town we lose is still one closer to Scum winning, no matter how you slice it.  Every Townie counts, the only ones that need to go are the ones who are openly hurting the cause by not being there (meaning Scum know who not to go after, as it helps get rid of the people actually doing stuff), or people who are inciting needless arguments, thus getting the town sidetracked.

Those are sacrifices that are needed.  Zenny being lost didn't help us, no...but at the same time, not sure we're really hurt by it either.  Its not cause he's a "Vanilla Townie", but rather, its cause he wasn't really active much lately, and thus, didn't really help us at the same time.

I'm willing to give Excal the benefit of the doubt; he hasn't done anything overly suspicious, and doesn't seem like a complete cover up at the moment.  Hard to get a read on him at the moment as a result.

Evil Tom seems to be going a bit on the offensive and fast, with little to go off of though.  At least Alex vs. Smodge, Smodge was playing poorly, not responding to Alex's requests ("There's a connection!" "What is that connection?" "Look at it! Think about Zenny and Carth's Role!" "No one sees one!" "Compare your role to theirs, come on!" that kind of thing), and he wasn't co-operating; that's at least SOME suspicious activity.  He did lighten up a bit...I think...and finally role claimed.  Now, that could be a cover up, but its hard to tell really.

[AndrewRogue]

I'm going to disagree with that, Meep. Losing Zenny the way we did essentially gave scum two free kills. Thanks to a townie PURPOSELY getting themselves lynched, we lost a chance to lynch scum. You know, our only method of dealing with them? It is a fairly solid blow, and one that does harm to us in a couple ways.