Random Mafia - Be Afraid...Very Afraid

[Smodge13]

Once Again my thoughts on people in order of who i find scummiest to least scummy.

Alex - Major scum feel, could be just because he's voting for me that i feel it but he is overaggressive as per usual, Didn't vote at all day 1, places comments moments before Otter self hammers and still doesn't vote, berates myself for voting and then leaving before deadline, then follows to ignore Excal placing a vote and leaving (and now QR), Main Aggressor on myself day 1, day 2 also continued to do it and today as well (day 2 Andrew was main aggressor however), Hasn't given thoughts on anyone other myself as far as i can see, types in Haiku and blows up the second its commented on, seems major like scum trying to push the easy mislynch.

##Vote: Alex

Andrew - Minor Scum feel, a small amount of Lurkage day 1, Day 2 was aggressive and fairly active, i still feel weird about the whole "i'll vote on a Lurker" and then doesn't post for a few hours until after the scales have been tipped and Otter is caught out in his lie. Focused on the 1 target all day 2 until Zenthor messed up, Hasn't posted as much day 3 once again but seems to be rereading and considering things (especially since his Smodge + Zenny Scumteam has been proven false).

Tom - Minor scum feel,  was away day 1 completely, day 2 was part of my Smodge train, Hammered Zenthor, comments on Excals supposed role, was dead on attacking Andrew until i agreed with him of all things and then switched.

Excal - Neutral to scum feel - If he's town, he's dangerous town, to vote just because theres a train going without even reading the posts just stinks. Also once again admits he isn't paying overly much attention to pick up on things but still throws a vote on Tom, Town or Scum Inattention is dangerous for the town.

Dhyer - Neutral to scum feel, Was part of Zenthor train both days but was first to point out Zenthors lie, all in all has remained fairly quiet.

Tai - Complete nuetral feel, Minor Lurker, part of day 1 Zenthor train, no votes day 2, however has given a reason for the lurkage and so i'm willing to wait and address things later.

QR - Neutral feel, Was part of the day 1 Zenny train but had good reason behind it, was on the Smodge train day 2 and didn't leave it, some of the posts have had flaws though (see thoughts on carthrats death) but it is probably just a minor mistake.

Meeple - Minor Town feel, Called out Otters lie first, has been part of all the trains except Zenthor day 1, contributes a fair bit.

Yakumo - Town feel, Robotspeak is easy enough to understand, Was part of Otter train, Pointed strongly out Otters lie (Meep did it first though), Wasn't part of Smodge train, was part of Zenthor train after his lie was spotted.

Ciato - Strong Town feel, started the Otter train, Flip flop sides during the Alex/Smodge Argument (with good reason), Suggested we look at more than 1 person day 2, all in all strong Town feel.

[Meeplelard]

Meeple - Minor Town feel, Called out Otters lie first, has been part of all the trains except Zenthor day 1, contributes a fair bit.

As much as I'd like to take credit for that, it was Yakko who initially noted that Otter lied, and called him out on it.  I just made a more direct approach.  You'll notice that Alex credits Yakko with saying something like "Yakko is right, Otter is lying" or whatever (don't feel like going through Alex's Haikus at the moment.)

So yeah, while I did call Otter out on it, Yakko was the one who noticed first.

[Meeplelard]

And blech, times like this I wish I could edit minor things like that!

By "noticed first" I actually meant "indicated that he noticed Otter was lying first."  Don't want someone coming in and saying "I noticed before Yakko brought it up!" or something.

[Ranmilia]

Smodge is wrong again
in saying I did not vote
day 1.  I did.

I voted for him.
Which brings us to his valid
point, my small focus.

As far as I see,
we're still mostly on day 1.
Some stuff has happened...

But both lynches were
essentially suicides,
players wanting out.

When players self-lynch,
analyzing votes for them
is mostly useless.

I look mainly at
play and votes, the latter is
meaningless so far.

A great deal of talk
has come out of the campaign
against Smodge, as hoped. 

Making sense of it
is not something I can do
without Smodge's flip.

I don't want to say
"So and so looks scummy cause
of their stance on Smodge"

until or unless
he gets lynched, obviously.
Meanwhile, he looks bad.

Excal absentee
voted, too, but he hasn't
done anything else.

Actually that's, well,
truer than it seems at first.
He's lurked pretty hard.

Two games or not, that's
not really acceptable,
I'd vote for him too.

But you can't vote twice,
this is the third day running
that Smodge ain't lynched yet.

Dread Thomas' comment
about "vanilla Excal"
also seems scummy.

I can't really see
why he would add vanilla
role to that sentence.

Those three are my main
suspects at this time, though Smodge
is by far the worst.

[EvilTom]

Smodge, what exactly do you have against Alex?
And Alex, can you explain your vendetta against Smodge? Beyond that inaccuracy just now. Though there are others who support it too.. might be nice to hear from them as well.
I'm not sure I understand the case against Smodge fully. And Smodge's case for Alex just seems weak.

[Smodge13]

Alex has only targeted 1 person the whole game, me.
He hasn't even relayed his opinions on anyone else except for that last post there.
Despite Otter being caught out in a lie he doesn't switch his vote to Otter, not only that he comments with minutes to go until deadline admitting himself that Otter is lying but still doesn't switch his vote (Otter then self-hammers)
Day 2, he doesn't jump on Zenthor for lying he once again remains his vote upon me.
Night 1 Rat dies, he was one of the few who defended me.

I tip the scale in the Otter train and say i'm leaving which brings Alex to comment about how it makes me look worse, however Excals vote and leaving as well as QR (although QR will be back before deadline) wasn't commented on in the least.

Essentially the 1 target he has gone against is myself he gave no opinion on others (until just then), he seems to not comment on a minor screw up someone else does but when i make the tiniest mistake he jumps on it.

[Ranmilia]

Smodge trolled for roleclaims,
which brought me on him at first.
Since then he's done more.

See all my past posts.
Others have single slipups,
but he has many.

I'm concentrating
on him till he's dead, that's right.
He's acted scummy.

Abandoning him
for other cases would be
undefendable.

He's attacking me
for singlemindedness, but
backing off is worse.

Especially since
he's managed to dodge the lynch
for two days straight now.

And since people keep
calling me out on this point,
I have to respond,

even though I'm just
rehashing all my old posts
over and over.

[Smodge13]

See all my past posts.
Others have single slipups,
but he has many.

Yet you blew up day 1 when i said
"i wonder if there's a link"
a single slip up brings you to comment for myself.

But others have to make multiple slip ups for you to comment?

Admittedly i have said a few things badly, but you jump on me on the 1st thing, others you leave alone on the 1st.

[Dhyerwolf]

Rereading the topic, I find that Smodge is at least right. Alex is pretty much dead set on taking him out. On the other hand, rereading the topic, he certainly makes it very clear why he's doing it. While I didn't find Smodge's day 1 trangression to be all the bad, his day 2 one looks a lot worse. He led the game on a wild goose chase for a solid chunk of time, and basically diverted the whole game over something really little. Alex and Andrew's explanations for attacking him feel very valid, but at the same time, it feels like it would be a very bad way to draw attention and the bad townie play vibe is still kind of strong to me. Because of that, I'm still pretty split on how I feel about Smodge. But yes, I will agree that Alex only dealing with Smodge could also be somewhat suspicious. I feel like Andrew has branched out more, while Alex only started to do it after Smodge called him on it. However, even that could be mitigated because there really hasn't been a lot of other meat to discuss. Yes, a few people have put out laundry lists of who they find suspicious, and it's generally the the bigger lurkers and the people who have come under more fire are the more suspicious ones. All in all, I'm not sure which direction to go in at this time. It seems like issues either resolve down to lurking, being overly focused on someone one finds scummy, and extremely blatant odd behavior.

[Smodge13]

I look mainly at
play and votes, the latter is
meaningless so far.

A great deal of talk
has come out of the campaign
against Smodge, as hoped. 

Making sense of it
is not something I can do
without Smodge's flip.

I don't want to say
"So and so looks scummy cause
of their stance on Smodge"

until or unless
he gets lynched, obviously.
Meanwhile, he looks bad.

Ok, i'm not intending it but i'm ending up a smokescreen somehow as points against me keep getting used, Alex im interested in your thoughts, if you cant analyze until i'm flipped how about this.

Relay your thoughts for 3 scenario's if you have time.

1. if i died and flipped Town
2. if i died and flipped Scum
3. if i died and flipped 3rd party

This way, we achieve conversation from the town in general AND we also will have things to analyze (others feel free to do the same if you feel the smokescreen won't clear until i'm dead)

[Excal]

Smodge, when it comes to voting and then leaving, are you talking about my behaviour on Day 2, or for today?  Because I am feeling much better today (amazing what 12 hours of sleep will do).

Anyways, I need to catch up on what's going on in this thread now, but I still seem to be active, and we're not too close to deadline yet, so expect something substantial from me later.

[QuietRain]

OK, I am REALLY feeling for Tai here,  being sick sux.  I called in sick to work and I am only going to get periodic chances to post between sleeping and medicating.  BUT, I will be checking in every few hours as I can.  And these forums constantly going down when I'm trying to read back over things is really getting obnoxious.

Now, I said that changing a vote on Smodge due to his claim of vanilla (or Hercule) didn't make a lick of sense to me.  It still doesn't, I'll be honest.  But changing a vote based on content, now that I understand.  And after Smodge's last post and after I've gone back and done some more re-reading based on recent activity, I will ##UNVOTE Smodge.  I'm still not sure I think he's town, but he's reading a little closer to it for me.

Now, thoughts (and I hope they come through coherantly through the medicine):

Tai - Sick sux.  Discworld eats your soul (and time).  Got that.  But post more.  When I went back through your posts here, I had a couple with content but it's just really hard to get a read on anyone with that little interaction.

Tom - I'm getting a fairly neutral read.  There are a few things that have given me pause about him (the vanilla thing, laying the vote on Dhyer knowing he wouldn't be here to take it off), but when he gets down to posting he looks very much like a townie trying to think things out.  So, they're sort of cancelling each other out into neutral at the moment.

Smodge - Could you re-post what you're talking about in the quote below?  I tried to go back and find the post but I'm not seeing it. I'd like to respond to the concerns, but not sure what you're speaking to atm.

QR - Neutral feel, Was part of the day 1 Zenny train but had good reason behind it, was on the Smodge train day 2 and didn't leave it, some of the posts have had flaws though (see thoughts on carthrats death) but it is probably just a minor mistake.

Dhyer - Neutral read. 

Alex - I think we've gotten a good view of your thoughts on smodge.  I'd like to know your thoughts on others. 

Yakumo - Getting a town feel.  Not much else to comment on, really. 

Ciato - ... Townie feel, but I'd like to get her thoughts on everyone if possible now that we have a little more fuel for the fire.  Shes been asking some good questions to clarify odd votes and stances.

Meeple - Townie feel still.

Andrew - Still feeling the townie vibe here.

Excal - Really neutral read atm.  Not much to say.

----------------------

Now, that brings my scummy read total to just Smodge.  Unless I see something in the next few hours that can turn my attention elsewhere, I'm going to just vote the scummiest I can find and re-instate the vote.  But I'd like to give people a chance to respond and post more content for me to see before I do that.

[Ranmilia]

My thoughts on others?
I have none, until Smodge dies.
NOTHING HAS HAPPENED.

Smodge's flip in hand,
THAT will let us start to tell
what to think of things.

People have backed off,
jumped on, switched sides all around
on the Smodge puzzle,

but it can't be said
what any of that stuff means
until we see flips.

I could repeat this
a lot, but honestly now.
Not the time for lists.

[Meeplelard]

Summary of things that have happened so far to me?

Day 1 silliness, Smodge starts off on a bad foot.  Ultimately, this gets undermined by Otter's lurking then coming out of nowhere, lying, and getting called out on it.  He ultimately suicides.

Day 2, Smodge thing is getting even more heat than before.  Zenny is put on trial...ultimately, after failing a certain strategy, suicides as well.  During this time, Smodge mentions connection, Smodge refuses to indicate it, just going "Think of it for yourself!" and ultimately, after being asked numerous times (the numerous is important, of course; it wasn't "What's the connection?" "Oh, its this.  Yeah, probably should have said that in the first place!" But rather "What's the connection?" "Think about it for yourself!" "...I don't see any, those 2 aren't alike" "Yes they are! Just think about it!" etc. etc.), finally role claims something that does fit in with his connection theory, and furthermore, finally admits the connection.

Day 3, Excal and Tai are called out for lurking.  Tai claims he's sick...fair excuse, as someone noted, he wasn't active on the boards in general.  Excal however was posting in Discworld...he claims he's just been out of it and is intending on getting back into the swing of things in the meantime.  EvilTom starts pushing on both of them some, and then starts labelling "Vanilla Town" as expendable, and furthermore, out and out states "Vanilla Town" in a case where simply saying "bored town" would have sufficed.

ULTIMATELY, Excal seems hard to get into at the moment.  Yes, his not talking much here is a bit suspicious...but willing to let him finally post and give his own thoughts on things til I weigh in.  Still, doesn't sound particularly positive.

I...dunno, barring the Excal and EvilTom aspects, we're not really in any different position than Day 1 due to those two suicides, based on stupid maneuvers around obvious falsehoods.  All that's changed is we're down 1 Scum and 2 towns, so...yeah...suppose now, Smodge seems like the scummiest, I guess.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Uh...huh.

##Vote: Alex

This has just gone too far, frankly. Tunnel vision bad, tunnel vision very bad.

[EvilTom]

Relay your thoughts for 3 scenario's if you have time.

1. if i died and flipped Town

At worst, we'd clear up all these smokescreens. At best, it would give us grounds of suspicion to go on, mainly Alex. Excal too, actually. You've been quite vocal about.. everyone really, so if you flip town, we might also be able to ascertain who is a likely scum by who was hiding in your blindspot. Though, that's grasping for straws, but nobody really has anything to go on.

2. if i died and flipped Scum

Then Alex would look like a lot more safe town, and potentially I'd look bad for not letting you get hammered in day 2. A few others too, but I don't have time to fully list them at the moment, I'll come back to it later.

3. if i died and flipped 3rd party

Uh.. I guess... that wouldn't give us anything to go on, but it would be good?


Nobody else has put in throughts on this, so I thought I may as well. I'm starting to agree with Alex.. we have nothing to go on until we sort out the 'smodge puzzle'. Also Dhyer points out something interesting, the wild goose chase of Smodge's really did waste a lot of the day.

Argh.. Alex is starting to make sense, despite the tunnel vision and Haikus. I'll think about it and vote later.

[QuietRain]

I can't think of a blessed reason where only looking at a single person makes any kind of sense at all.  IF we do decide to lynch Smodge as you're advocating, then all we have to look back in future days in regards to YOU is your focused attack on him.  We have nothing else to look at in regards to you.  And even if he flipped scum at this point, I'd still look at you funny for saying that.  You think he's scum.  We got that.  But to think that any participation you do needs to align only with a single target looks...scummy.

I know games will get bogged down in dragging out days with people not firmly behind votes on a single target, but I don't want to blindly excuse everyone else while I'm chasing obvious scumtells from one person.  Giving the other scums a free pass sounds like a bad idea.  I'd think you would agree to that.

If nothing else, you could take your vote a step farther at the very least.  Assume that Smodge IS scum.  What does that knowledge tell you about how others are acting?  Tell us something new.  Because right now I've got nothing on you besides a single-minded determination to lynch Smodge at any cost.

FoS: Alex

[Ranmilia]

See Tom's last post there?
And Quietrain's question?  I
want to *avoid* that.

Anything I say,
or anyone else, along
those lines is useless.

The DL is way
too lax about letting folks
off the hook on things.

If Smodge is scum, and
we point out his buddies' tells,
they'll just change their ways.

And after he flips,
the other scum will get off.
Sad, yes.  But too true.

I refuse to voice
any speculation 'bout
the implications.

AFTER he flips scum,
then we look back and see what
stances people took.

Others would do well
to join me in this course of
action, I believe.

Rain said it herself,
a mindless push to make lists
on all the players

in the sole name of
"not blindly excusing folks"
just bogs down the town.

If there was something
other than Smodge to discuss,
I would.  But there's not.

Alex's Big List:
All:  Insufficient data.
Smodge:  Very scummy.

[Smodge13]

If Smodge is scum, and
we point out his buddies' tells,
they'll just change their ways.

So lets get this straight, when  say "i see a connection between Rat and Zenthors names, but don't want to say it" it's scummy, but Alex when you refuse to give opinions on others it's not?
I didn't want to stat the connection due to the fact that it scum could act on it and this supposedly = scummy
but when you don't want to give information because scum could possibly act on it = acceptable?
Wow nothing has made me wish i had more than 1 vote so i could strengthen all i have said about this.

Smodge, when it comes to voting and then leaving, are you talking about my behaviour on Day 2, or for today?  Because I am feeling much better today (amazing what 12 hours of sleep will do).

Yeah day 2

Smodge - Could you re-post what you're talking about in the quote below?  I tried to go back and find the post but I'm not seeing it. I'd like to respond to the concerns, but not sure what you're speaking to atm.

QR - Neutral feel, Was part of the day 1 Zenny train but had good reason behind it, was on the Smodge train day 2 and didn't leave it, some of the posts have had flaws though (see thoughts on carthrats death) but it is probably just a minor mistake.

It's very minor QR
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=300.msg3400#msg3400

3-Carth makes snarky come back to smodge's promise that his comment was not a scum ploy

You just mistook myself for Eviltom, i only noticed it when going back over things, it hardly changes things.

[Smodge13]

Wow i apologize for the above crappy spelling.

[Ranmilia]

Quite right, master Smodge.
It's not the same thing at all.
Different cases.

You told scum there WAS
a connection of some sort.
I'm saying nothing.

Withholding your thing
could hurt town a lot, if it
was vital as thought.

Withholding my thoughts
(on this one issue!) does not
deprive town at all,

because said thoughts are
worth nothing until they are
backed up by a lynch.

[AndrewRogue]

General feelings at this point scream that Smodge needs to die. He hasn't done anything to settle my feelings about him in the previous day, and ending his life feels like it would be somewhat enlightening.

Evil Tom isn't looking much better to me, between the all day gone vote on Dhyer and hammering a confirmed townie. Might have just been newbie play, but I would have tried to get Zenny modkilled rather then waste town's one weapon on... well... town. Not good play in my opinion.

Quiet Rain is looking generally positive, but she's also just playing nice.

Ciato... don't have much to go on, but gut screams town.

Excal and Tai... don't have good reads at all. Lacking much material.

Dhyer... is in an interesting position of havining outed Zenny. While this would normally look positive... Zenny's lameness puts a particular damper on this and makes it look like a possible "whoah, great moment" to get a free lynch.

Meeple... eh.

Alex.... yes, he's singleminded, but I can't help but agree. The problem is we have almost no evidence on anyone else because day 2 went to hell and we have no nightkill information.

As such, for the moment, I'm right back where I started yesterday.

##Vote: Smodge

[Yakumo]

This unit agrees with poetic meatbag as far as total evidence being rather lacking for forming suspicions of any individual player.  Listing suspicions of all players pointless when voting record matters so little, and only personality to use for evidence.  No meatbag acting significantly outside of normal parameters at this point.  (Arguable that this unit is, but this unit does not fit term 'meatbag'.)

This unit does find it curious that meatbag EvilTom attempted to accuse this unit of misrepresenting his terminology when direct copy of original writing was used to deliver point, and followed this attempt by taking a quote of this unit's out of context to attack with.  I followed the quoted line about tenuous evidence on meatbag Taishyr with an explanation of why this unit found said evidence lacking, being that he attacked Taishyr for posting on message boards while not posting in this game, which I stated could not be the case as he had only made posts on the boards when this game was in the night phase, not when this game was active.

[EvilTom]

You know, the day-gone vote had nothing to do with anything and has no real bearing, but...hammer a confirmed townie? Wth Andrew, explain that one please? As far as I can tell, I didn't hammer *any* confirmed townies. I hammered somebody who had voted for themselves and wanted out. Alignment hadn't been confirmed in any tangible way at all. He could have been scum. There was no confirmation until the hammer fell. Blame him for poor play, not me.

Blah.

##Unvote: Excal
##Vote: Smodge

Let's see where Alex goes with this.

[Dhyerwolf]

At this point, if I'm counting correctly, there are 2 players that all have 2 votes and 1 with 3. Although I'm not the sure best to go, of the 3 Smodge has raised the most issues with me. Evil Tom has had similar verbal missteps, but nothing like Smodge's day 2 chase down. Alex...is definetely having tunnel-vision, but in the end, it doesn't really compare with Smodge's day 2 actions. At this point, I do find him the most suspicious.

##Vote: Smodge13