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Author Topic: Season 50, Week 3 - Whee Middle slapfights in Heavy. Also, dog vs. fridge OTP.  (Read 12478 times)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9)
Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA)
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6)
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoFs)

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2)
Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3)
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7)
Dias Flac (SO2) vs. Percival Fraulein (S3)

Middle

Nina (BoF5) vs. Koromaru (P3)
Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8)
Jessica Philomele (MK) vs. Heath (FE7)
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1)

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC)
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7)
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3)
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 01:15:51 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA) - I allow Val the evade for both attack types. The thing is, do I see FF4 evade as mocking TotA MAs? This is rather relevant, although it might not be enough for Van anyway, since even Val damage (with the lapping) breaks past 25% limit range.
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6) - Elim checks speed and not evade to me. Game.
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoFs) - Yeah.

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2) - Lang needs to: wall Sleep -and- ID at once. Stave off Hugo's 2HKO and better speed. Um, yeah, it's a bit of a lot to manage all at once. He does win if he fires off a Mystic Art, but Hugo certainly has the tools to keep him from getting that.
Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3) - Dear god, this fits a week 3 Middle.
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7) - Um yeah, Confuse probably seals this. At worst, gives him the time he needs to Air Anchor? EDIT: wait Lyn goes first. So um yeah Confuse-lock gogogogogo here.
Dias Flac (SO2) vs. Percival Fraulein (S3) - Pure physical slugger that's just okay at it against Percival physical durability! Yeah, that'll work. The healing-poking strategy is enough.

Middle

Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8) - The immediate kneejerk goes this way. Colm has better evade and may double anyway.
Jessica Philomele (MK) vs. Heath (FE7) - Um. Wonder if Jessica can kill with Sky Present before Heath drops her. He needs a Killer crit here unless he doubles, though. Hmmm. EDIT: for now, assuming Sky Present isn't enough. Could still change.
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1) - Sleep mocks Vivi and everything he stands for. Not that it's even necessary, Alhazad 2HKOs him as is and, if he's not faster, Slow Down makes him so.

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC) - Miki has a shot with her confuse tech or something? Who the hell cares, Camus might well outslug Miki as long as he gets a single turn unconfused.
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7) - Dear god, why?
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3) - EDIT: Slash has magic? Nevermind.
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA) - EDIT: Cinnamon goes first, Hyper Modes, Luke now 4HKOs, Cinnamon 4HKOs... and here is where her healing seals the deal. She can deal with having to heal once per match fine, it's just when she needs to prolong her stalling that things get ugly. She could save her HM for later in the fight to boot.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 08:42:55 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dhyerwolf

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Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9)
Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA)
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6)- Hmm, does Rika hit speed or evasion with that ID...
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoF3)

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2)- Unless Funeral Wind does hit Wind resistance! Otherwise, Lang can't get both Sleep and ID res, and think he needs both.
Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3)
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7)- Confuse lock?
Dias Flac (SO2) vs. Percival Fraulein (S3)- Barely keeps up a 2HKO to me.

Middle

Nina (BoF5) vs. Koromaru (P3)- ID works
Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8)- Um
Jessica Philomele (MK) vs. Heath (FE7)- Well, he doesn't double, and Sky Present has that 1/5 chance of basically breaking the enemy, which does help. Hmm.
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1)- Don't know here.

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC)- Gut says Camus, but CC Confuse could make him waste his turns less than ideally.
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7)- Not caring here.
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3)- Slash's magic 6HKOs (5HKOs against Thomas then). Slash is faster, and his second form has like 2.4 PC HP (Which Thomas obviously doesn't 4HKO!)
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA)- Heard Meteor Storm only hits twice, so Luke 3HKOS even through Hyper.
...into the nightfall.

Nitori

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Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9) - OK never wins
Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA) - Van sucks
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6) - Meeple never wins
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoFs) - I don't think I'm beating BoF3 soon~

Heavy

Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6)
vs. Lyndis (FE7) - Djinn never wins

Middle

Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8) - Eliwood sucks~
Jessica Philomele (MK) vs. Heath (FE7) - FE is invincible

Light

Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7) - Crits or something
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA) - Whatever Snow said
<Ko-NitoriisSulpher> roll 1d100 to grade Nitori?
<Hatbot> ACTION --> "Ko-NitoriisSulpher rolls 1d100 to grade Nitori? and gets 100." [1d100=100]

DjinnAndTonic

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Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9) - How many crits does Naesala need to win this? I mean, Ghaleon's awfully slow, it could happen... >.>;;
Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA) - Van could win... but how will he stop her spin?!
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6) - ID'd

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2) - But..but... Lang resists Fire!
Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3) - Kornell sucks.
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7) - Goes first, triple turns, crits every one of them, evades Noiseblaster, obviously Lyn's match. >.>;;

Middle

Nina (BoF5) vs. Koromaru (P3) - OTP? Obviously a draw.

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC) - CC Confuse, really?
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7) - Hawkeye kneejerk.
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3) - Poor Thomas
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA) - After 4 turns, Luke could conceivably have a FOF built up and blow past any of Cinnamon's healing. Alternately, Free Run infinite dodge hype!

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Clear Tranquil

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Kornell might suck but so does a Maria in Heavy - unless you allow her a Tattered Tome for Healing or something. Eh well there's First Aid/L10 Standby Healing but doubt it's enough to save her here.
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superaielman

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Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA)- Zero respect for Val's magic evade.
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6)- Donno, chewing on this.
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoFs)

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2)- Too many options and is faster to boot.
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7)- Slaughter.
Dias Flac (SO2) vs. Percival Fraulein (S3)- Heal locks pretty easily.

Middle

Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8)
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1)- Alhazad vs NE magic is ugly.

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC)- Kneejerking for the far stronger Light.
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7)- Dorcas wins damage, durablity's equal, Dorcas wins accuracy. Don't think crits make up for that.
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3)
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA)
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Monkeyfinger

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Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9)
Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA)
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6): My kneejerk is to subject elim to whichever of speed or evade makes it less accurate in whatever individual match she's in, to reflect the fact that the move is a pile of shit. So yeah.
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoFs)

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2): LoL2 characters have to nuke their defense to get blockers, generally, and it's an awfully potent stat... so even if Lang can rig up the right blockers hugo just 2HKOs him with the knife.
Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3)
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7)

Middle

Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8)
Jessica Philomele (MK) vs. Heath (FE7): Killer crit on turn 3 OHKOs and there's nothing that Jessica can do to kill or incapacitate Heath in 2 turns.
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1)

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC)
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7)
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3)
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA): Godlike Tales defend command wastes Cinnamon's hyper turns and lets Luke come out of that with barely a scratch, then he runs circles around cinnamon and cuts her to ribbons.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 04:21:29 AM by Monkeyfinger »

Ultradude

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Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA): Alright, Val doesn't face magic attacks, so... I'll assume Van just magicks her.

Heavy

Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7): Confuse, I guess. Lyn wouldn't kill if she somehow went first.

Middle

Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8): Colm's damage is below average enough to barely 3HKO... with Eliwood's above average defense and HP, and an extra point difference with a Silver Lance, I'd say Colm 5HKOs. Meanwhile, Eliwood, with WTA and the Silver Lance, and Colm's averagish durability, Eliwood still 3HKOs. Eliwood's only a tad above average evasion, Colm's awesome at it, but Colm's a few points below skill average(!), while Eliwood's a tad above... Colm, of course doubles.

Colm has no crit bonus, and Eliwood's above average luck, but... he'll likely crit in three attacks anyways with a Killer Edge, which would kill with only one other attack from Colm. So, yeah, basically, everyone's kneejerking in the right direction.

Even if Colm takes 4 attacks to kill, he's still okay.
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1): Works.

Light

Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7): Well shucks...
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 08:25:42 PM by Ultradude »
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Dark Holy Elf

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How on earth is Dias 2HKOing Percival? Looking at the S3 topic, he does... if Percival opts for Chief Hat + Damage. I have no idea why he would. Switching the Chief's Hat to a Custom Casque trades a rather trivial amount of damage for 34.5 defence. Opting for Armour Protect gives him 20% more Def on top of that. This raises his defence from 255 to an impressive 347. Now, you can argue that other people opting for Def raises the average too, but a cursory glance at the topic showed most people with AP already (and those who don't usually have a low rank and low def, so they have much less to gain), and non-helm users gain less Def from the move to the Helm (and mages already use that)... still, eh, raise the average by 29 points and call it a day. Percival has 1.7x average physical durability. Not only does Dias fail to 2-hit kill that, he fails to 3-hit kill it. Unless you use the damage average that factors in slower moves, which is fair... but then Dias still 3-hit kills and is no longer especially fast, so Percival easily manages that.

Finally, Percival has Parry at a fixed 30% rate, which is either sending those 3-4HKOs into 5HKO territory or making Dias whiff about a third of the time (take your pick, I lean towards the latter), as well as a decent counter rate when he does parry (untested, but A Parry + B+ Counter adds up). Yes, his damage isn't very good (especially after Dias' evade, though Percival's high Skill does mitigate that a fair deal... Skill is more important than setting Accuracy), but he doesn't need it to be; he gets lots of opportunities to use it.

Rest of votes later!

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Maybe.

SnowFire

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Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9) - I will freely admit to being capricious in my interpretations when it comes to annoying returning champion Godlikes.  So...  Naesala boss form hype away, for this match at least I'll see it as legal.  Obviously the boss form doesn't win if Fate Storm still works, but....  that's hard to test, since there are no FE8 Assassins in FE9.  I'll assume Naesala is ID-immune.

Ghaleon is, weirdly enough, punished for being double-acting rather than having one big super powerful spell.  Tornado does ~85 damage to a ~240 HP average, so .35 PCHP damage roughly.  However....  FE resistance kicks in first, then the weakness bonus.  Naesala has completely stupid Def and Res scores for when you encounter him - 21 Def, 16 Res.  Checking Soren's growths...  a lvl. 20/4 Soren should have ~20 Magic, with +2 damage for Wind (possibly up to +7 if you forged a fancy tome for him).  So, the best damaging mage can do 6-11 damage to that Resistance normally.  Since we should factor in others, let's say 5 damage is where average magic damage ends up.  The stat topic lists 16 as average damage normally for that level, so Naesala subtracts .275 PCHP in magic damage from attacks.  This means that Ghaleon is doing .35-.275 = .075 PCHP damage before weakness, and .15 PCHP after factoring it in.  If we allow Ghaleon to just spam Tornado (which I don't normally do), Naesala has ~1.5 PCHP = 10 Tornadoes.  Which is like 6 Ghaleon turns if he wants to throw up Chaos Shield, which he does.  Meanwhile Naesala pretty much murders anyone without a Laguz guard on his doubles, doing, according to the stat topic, 1.05 PCHP on his doubles (which sounds low).  Granted, Ghaleon's got really solid defense too, backed by a Chaos Shield...  it'd probably take 5 Naesala turns to kill Ghaleon ignoring Chaos Shield?

So.  Ignoring Chaos Shield, they both take 5 turns to kill each other; with it, they both take 6 turns.  Except Naesala goes first.  Except...  Naesala runs out of transformation juice on his 6th turn!  His boss form doesn't have a Royal Band.  Well sucks to be him.

And I so wanted to vote for Naesala here, too.  Amusing match, though.

Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA) - Yeah, Van wins with his magic.

Heavy

Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3) - Really close match to me.  Maria's Energy Burst does something like 1x PCHP?  And it blows up the Iron First in the process.  Only problem is that for Maria to win, she needs to go first, and not only survive Kornell's turn, but have enough HP to spend on two Strong-attack Energy Bursts.  Since Maria going first is rather questionable - she's a slow walker, even if for gunfire it doesn't really matter - and she's got eh HP vs. Kornell's brutal attack, so she might not be able to afford the Energy Bursts after all, which is fatal.

Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7) - There's a slight interpretation issue here.  In FF6, it's legal to attack yourself normally, and Noiseblaster makes you do it.  In Fire Emblem, it's not legal to attack yourself or allies normally, and going berserk will only make you attack anyone (including nearby allies), but never attack yourself.  Under Edgar's preferred interpretation, sure, Noiseblaster lock away as Lyn kills herself.  But otherwise...  Lyn opens with a double.  Edgar Noiseblasters from Long Range (or short range if Lyn used a Bow for some reason).  Lyn does nothing.  Edgar Air Anchors.  Lyn continues to do nothing.  Edgar Bio Blasters (!), but "wakes up" Lyn.  Lyn will get one more attack on Edgar before dying, and checking...  Edgar's defense isn't special, so yeah, 3 Lyn attacks do him in.  I suppose Edgar will equip a Pearl Lance for WTA, and has some Evade, so Lyn might miss...  but under Lyn's favored interpretation, she still wins most of the time.

Dias Flac (SO2) vs. Percival Fraulein (S3) - See DHE.  Middling in-game respect for Dias anyway.

Talaysen

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Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7) - There's a slight interpretation issue here.  In FF6, it's legal to attack yourself normally, and Noiseblaster makes you do it.  In Fire Emblem, it's not legal to attack yourself or allies normally, and going berserk will only make you attack anyone (including nearby allies), but never attack yourself.

There are plenty of games where attacking allies is not a valid action, but confusion makes you do it.  A status should be defined by the attacker's rules.  For example: WA4 Poison hitting another game character where their poison is only 5%?  It's not 5%, it's 25%, because that's what it is in WA4, and arguing otherwise is just silly.

On the flip side, if someone has Confusion that doesn't make the opponent attack thesmelf, that now gets inflated in the DL because it can force opponents who can attack themselves in-game do it (half the time).  Yeah no.

Meeplelard

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Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9): I wanna let Naesala like quadra turn Ghaleon given the speed difference, but since FE10 Naesala fails to pull that off against stuff like UNSHIFTED DRAGONS...yeah (no, not serious; mostly my way of saying "Naesala's fucked")
Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA): Yeah, don't really respect Val's Magic Evade given the utter lack of actual Magic Damage AND I don't even think enemy Magic Evade works against spells anyway.  She could have a fighting chance in her FF4DS form where her damage is a little better, but eh, don't think I allow that form anyway!
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6): Eliminat hits evade to me for a number of reasons; I've held this interp for several years now (basically as soon as we learned its a Dex vs. Agl thing)...think it even came up a few times?  But yeah, its not me randomly changing an interp that favors Terra.
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoFs): Guts is likely to fail before Myria runs out of HP.  Alternatively, BoF3 Form status' her out.  Before someone says "How dare you change forms mid season!" or some such, I'm pretty sure Myria 3 beats Belial ANYWAY, so its largely irrelevant.

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2): Kneejerking that Hugo's speed and healing give him the edge here.  He might be able to chip around the Mystic Artes phase as well with one of his weaker fire spells if need be, but I'm thinking he probably doesn't need too.
Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3): Kneejerk disrespect of Maria against Bosses.
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7): Was thinking "Lyn might win if she can 3 shot Edgar with 2 physicals and a Crit" which she might...but then considered the following scenario that's debatable which led to me realizing Edgar has a clean win:
Offering redirects Physicals Mid attack if the person hits himself, so Lyn debatable should do that...HOWEVER, Doubling in FE7 is not like Offering, cause the Offering targets MULTIPLE enemies randomly.  Doubling is more like FF6's Genji Glove, which targets one person, and the second hit would hit himself as well.  So Lyn's argument about not hitting herself on the second hit is shakey...

But then it occurred to me; why is Lyn DOUBLING HERSELF?  Remember, she's not targetting Edgar, but suddenly getting her attacks reflected; she's quite literally TARGETTING HERSELF.  Lyn would, as a result, be against someone of equal speed and not double.  So we just get a situation of this!

Lyn attacks Edgar twice, doesn't kill (pretty sure he'd live through Killing Edge/Bowx4 hits, which is what effectively one crit leads too; I COULD be wrong though)
Edgar uses Noiseblaster, Lyn Confused
Then either Lyn breaks self out of confusion...then gets hit with Noiseblaster against, until she double turns, which is happening long after she's dead since Edgar isn't anything close to Dekar level speed.
*OR*
Lyn attacks and misses herself, giving Edgar a free turn to hit her with Bio Blaster or Flash (both Magical and Evade ignoring.)

SO yeah, Edgar has a pretty clean win unless he can't survive a Crit + Physical from a killing weapon, which if someone wants to math that out and prove me wrong, by all means.

Dias Flac (SO2) vs. Percival Fraulein (S3): Yeah, Percival isn't heal locked.

Middle

Nina (BoF5) vs. Koromaru (P3): Can't vote!
Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8): Eliwood vs. someone better than him, is my kneejerk!
Jessica Philomele (MK) vs. Heath (FE7): I can...sort of...vote...but won't.
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1): Kneejerk, need to look up Alazahad again.

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC): Kneejerk.
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7): Gonna trust the whole "Dorcas' everything vs. Hawkeye's Crit" here.
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3): Dunno.
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA): Need to look at both more closely!
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

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SnowFire

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There are plenty of games where attacking allies is not a valid action, but confusion makes you do it.  A status should be defined by the attacker's rules.  For example: WA4 Poison hitting another game character where their poison is only 5%?  It's not 5%, it's 25%, because that's what it is in WA4, and arguing otherwise is just silly.

On the flip side, if someone has Confusion that doesn't make the opponent attack thesmelf, that now gets inflated in the DL because it can force opponents who can attack themselves in-game do it (half the time).  Yeah no.

The distinction I'm drawing here is this.  Confusion can do two things: Change the legality of targeting, and change the rules on how you target.
* Take a game where it is normally not legal to attack yourself/allies, but confusion both makes it legal and makes it required.  Using attacker's definition of status, sure, Lyn would surely be screwed by such a confusion effect.  No argument here.
* The situation you describe - confusion does not make it legal to attack illegal targets like yourself, merely makes you pick randomly (like Skies of Arcadia?).  Lyn's fine because she can't normally attack herself.  Characters who can legally self-target now attack themselves half the time (unless confusion makes you pick randomly between allies, in which case they attack themselves all the time, or do nothing in the case of Lyn / others who can't self-target).
* Final Fantasy 6.  It's already legal to attack yourself in FF6.  Confusion just makes you pick randomly among your allies.  So the question is...  would confusion make a normally illegal target legal?  There's no answer for that in FF6, because it already IS legal.  So it's impossible to say if Confusion is powerful enough to "change the rules."  Just like it's impossible to gauge accuracy in a game with no evasion (Lufia 2).

Sure, use attacker's definition of status, but it's impossible to know if FF6 confusion changes targeting rules.  And there's something to be said for looking at how status works in the defender's game in unclear cases.  So I don't think Lyn's argument is ridiculous, but it does rest upon a judgment call which is basically going to be arbitrary.  If you think that FF6 confusion would make illegal targets like yourself legal, then vote Edgar; if FF6 confusion doesn't change the legality of self-targeting, then Lyn wins about 80% of the time.

Meeplelard

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FF6 Confusion DOES change the target rules, actually; this is easily testable in game.

Easy way?

The Offering.  You can never target yourself with a physical with the offering equipped; it won't let you.  Same goes for any FORCED Multi-target spell in fact.  Yet a confused FF6 character WILL hit allies with the Offering (if the target hits himself, it'll actually break him out of confusion immediately, and he'll start hitting the enemies, as an interesting note; hence the confusion brought up in chat regarding Lyn's Doubles.)

This isn't an exception, mind, just an easy way to test.  Other such examples exist; a famous one is Rippler, where you can't target yourself, but cause of confusion, you can actually shift some oddball status around, most notably, giving Interceptor to another character, by having a confused Strago/Gogo use it. 

So yeah, FF6 Confusion DOES ignore targeting rules.  The only exception is for spells that are labeled "Abort on Allies" like many summons, but in this case, its not a targeting thing; the game just won't let the spell flat out work, and just cancel's the spell animation (the character I think still does the casting animation, mind.)

I think I can safely say FF6 Confusion doesn't give a rats ass about rules of targeting; just works it so its beneficial (without factoring in stuff like Undead or Elemental Resistance) for the opposing side and/or harmful to the confused character's side.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Dhyerwolf

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Even if it didn't have proof, would it matter? Edgar's Confusion always makes enemies target themselves if there is only one left. Unless you really want to theoretically say that it's impossible for Lyn to cut herself with her own sword just because she can't target herself in game (Instead of the more logical reason of game makers didn't want to code in for something that is either suicidal or a free way to cram EXP with sucky units).

FF 6 enemies don't target themselves anyways normally, I'm guessing, so Edgar's Confusion changes the rules on what really matters.
...into the nightfall.

SnowFire

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Meeplelard: Fair enough!  A bit obscure, but sure, if the Offering + Confusion combo proves it, sounds like FF6 confusion does make normally illegal targets legal.

Dhyerwolf: Sure, it does matter, in that it's definitely legal to self-target in FF6, so it's hard to tell the difference between "attack legal allies" and "attack allies regardless of normal legality."  I'm not saying FE characters can't attack themselves, but it does require an "illegal targets are now legal" effect to allow it.  Which it seems FF6 provably has anyway.

Dark Holy Elf

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If FE characters can't attack themselves under Confuse, then they sit there doing nothing and Edgar Bio Blasters/Flashes them to death (magic attacks don't break FF6 Confuse) so this isn't really any better for the FE characters. Worse, in fact.

Re Naesala vs. Ghaleon, weakness bonus comes BEFORE defence, not after, throwing some calculations off. Also I'm not sure why you'd use Wind in that comparison when Elthunder exists (well, I guess it hurts Soren's speed some, but not the other mages, and they only have ~2 less Magic. So damage to Naesala is 9 minimum, before forging which gets us to 11-13, or possible Mist Sonic Sword shenanigans).

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James_xeno

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A few notes on the Vivi, Alhazad fight.

Vivi has 10 free ability stones with the ST topic setup, Insomniac only takes 5 stones to use. But if (for some unfathomable reason) you don't allow stone only abilities. He can equip a Coral Ring for Insomniac, with the added bonus of the ability to absorb thunder magic (STMB and Healing through Thundaga), or opt for the store bought 'Holy Miter' to get Insomniac. That deals with sleep easy enough.

In addition to the Coral Ring, Vivi could also gain thunder resistance through an Adaman Hat (100% resistance, NOT 50%), or a Protect Ring (50%) < Note.. He learns both 'Mag Elem Null' and 'Half MP' from Protect Rings. So there is an argument, for those who care about that kind of thing.

Vivi really does not want Mag Elem Null in this fight, which gives him another 13 stones. 'Half MP' costs just 11 stones and really helps him out here. Especially if Vivi wants/needs to heal a lot with 'Water'. (or Thundaga if he has a Coral Ring.)


Now on to his opponent. Alhazad is susceptible to WA1 Slow. Plus raw speed-wise (90), if Alhazad was a PC, he'd be dead last. (185 > 123 > 115 > 90, average 141 without, 128 with.) And something like 2nd or 3rd to last among second half bosses and last against late game bosses. (including the previous 7 or so before him.)

On a final note. Some WA1 bosses have a finite amount of MP, Alhazad is one of them... So Osmose hurts.


Quote
Quote
When antelopes cross a river crocodiles will eat some of them, but the majority will still make it through.
Because there are 500 antelope and three crocodiles. Not because the crocodiles are enviornmentalists.

Dark Holy Elf

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Godlike

Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9): Just so much better.
Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA): Hmm. Assuming Van's magic hits, he probably 4-5HKOs, while Val does the same back... and is much faster. Granted, the MA in there helps, though after Val's evade/def reduction it's probably not much better than the magic anyway? If the magic doesn't hit Van just dies. Makes me lean towards a Val vote.
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6): Mewtwo > Rika says that the attack hits speed to me! Though honestly, my kneejerk is to consider Agility to be speed first, evade second. YMMV.
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoFs): Guts can't cut it here.

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2): Evade and sleep both give Lang problems.
Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3): Immune to her trick, 2HKOs.
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7): It's been said.
Dias Flac (SO2) vs. Percival Fraulein (S3): Seems straightforward enough. Percival spoils evadable physicals rather well.

Middle

Nina (BoF5) vs. Koromaru (P3)
Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8): Doubles, making this easy.
Jessica Philomele (MK) vs. Heath (FE7): Not sure, depends how good Sky Present is I think. Blocker/Guts slows the healer-busting criticals, but not forever.
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1): Even IF you give Vivi a sleep blocker, he's owned by Slow Down + heal-lock until doubleturn.

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC): CC confuse wasn't that awesome against non-healers.
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7): Dorcas has very slight stat advantages everywhere except Crit. I guess the Crit is the most significant difference, though, so let's go with that.
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3): Has magic and so much more HP.
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA): Gut says he 3HKOs through Hyper Mode; Luke was above average damage and Cinny isn't that durable. + chance he goes first. She can heal, though doing that gives Luke two turns (unless he goes first) so it doesn't really accomplish anything. Open to arguments here.

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Maybe.

OblivionKnight

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odlike

Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9) - Ghaleon.  Yeah...can't justify Naesala ;_:
Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA) - Van.  TotA bosses can jump, people.  Van jumps towards Valvalis, kills spin, and chains a combo into her.
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6) - Rika. 
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Tyr (BoFs) - Tyr.

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2) - Uh....Lang...maybe?
Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3) - Kornell
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7) - Edgar
Dias Flac (SO2) vs. Percival Fraulein (S3) - Dias!  Peeps!

Middle

Nina (BoF5) vs. Koromaru (P3) - Koro.  Yeah...I have no idea what I view Koro's resistances as anymore.  On the other hand, I don't respect much Nina5's Death (it...never hit for me, even with 3 shots at a time).  Then again...she can block ID...but can't heal...argh.  This is actually a headache. 
Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8) - Colm.  Elitard can't do shit.
Jessica Philomele (MK) vs. Heath (FE7) - Jessica.
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1) - Alhazad...though I do allow a lot of stuff for FF9, making Vivi better than he seems.  Granted, I also allow Alhazad the bugs, so >_>

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC) - Miki....was Blue? 
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7) - Hawkeye.  Better RES!
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3) - Slash.
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA) - Cinnamon.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 11:05:13 PM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

James_xeno

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Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1): Even IF you give Vivi a sleep blocker, he's owned by Slow Down + heal-lock until doubleturn.
Why wouldn't you give him one? It's one of his abilities and he has equips for it!

Remember Vivi has slow as well. So they're just back to where they started. heal-lock? The ST puts Alhazad's second best damage at well under 2HKO levels. (2.4HKO) Besides, Vivi could even use the Drain strategy if need be.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 10:45:21 PM by James_xeno »
Quote
Quote
When antelopes cross a river crocodiles will eat some of them, but the majority will still make it through.
Because there are 500 antelope and three crocodiles. Not because the crocodiles are enviornmentalists.

Dark Holy Elf

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Vivi's Slow wears off in four rounds, Alhazad's never does. Alhazad's is also more accurate (Vivi's whiffs about half the time). Drain against someone with high MDef seems a very bad strategy even before you factor in its awful raw damage and the fact that it doesn't avoid the 2HKO on a double problem.

Alhazad Symphony does 1500 damage to an average HP that is between Boomy/Lucied (2700) and endgame (3600). Gourry calls STMB a 2HKO, so let's go with the highest possible HP value that allows this and call the average 3400. However, Vivi's 84% average HP (by the lower listed stat topic HP average) would see him 2HKOed under these circumstances. And before you think to mention his Magic Defence, note that, if he's blocking Thunder, he's giving up at least 4 MDef, so he's actually slightly below average there.

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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For starters: Vivi's statusblocking equipment skills are universal, and aren't attached to the equipment. YMMV on that issue, but the fact that it's a 8/8 skill that everyone can get and is attached to the skill crystal system rather than the equipment is a strike against it.

Second, Vivi's Slow is inaccurate, fairly ineffectual and is a status rather than a stat bust. Alhazad isn't vulnerable to status, and even if he were, Vivi would have to deal with hitting his own status at turn two at best. The non-elemental null skill is largely considered illegal, so no guaranteed go there (accessory skills tend to not be viewed very leniently, particularly from non-unique accessories).

And, well... I dunno if it dawned on you, but Drain sucks hardcore at damage, and it's not even that great healing (barely over 50% assuming boosted damage, 40%~ not). Against Alhazad MDef, it'll be particularly poor healing, and absolutely horrible damage, especially considering it's something like 1/6 average damage to begin with.  

I mean, with your outline, Vivi even could beat Alhazad. Just don't act shocked that people aren't giving him the borderline insane options you're handing him.
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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
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OblivionKnight

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Eh...my opinion on the "8/8 people can use the status-blocking skills no allowd!!!" is...well, can't 14/14 people in FF6 use storebought accessories to block BLIND!? 

The stones strike me as equivalent to accessories, really.  It feels stupid to not allow a cast to block status because it's not an accessory, but is a legitimate way to do it in-game.  It's a really weird distinction to make.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory