Season 50, Week 3 - Whee Middle slapfights in Heavy. Also, dog vs. fridge OTP.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I feel the need to emphasise that it's moot in this case. Sleep-blocking does not allow Vivi to win when he's being 2HKOed by someone who is ultimately faster than him.

That said, I agree in principle that it's a fuzzy distinction. It's one I stick to, though, since as close as stone skills are to equipment, they're still skills, and I don't allow universal skills (see also the statusblocking skills of certain WA games). I'm also reluctant to make a judgement call for FF9's blockers when it already has elemental blockers that are the envy of every other cast, I'll admit.

[Meeplelard]

I just wanna say that this talk about FE vs. Confusion reminds me of one absolutely hilarious match that happened on a board tourney:

Renault vs. Edward.

I don't need to say anything else >.>

[OblivionKnight]

Oh, I'm not arguing that Vivi wins.

The crystal thing for FF9 has always rubbed me the wrong way, though.  I mean...people had originally allowed status-blockers to stop one-shot status whores in the past, right?  Feels odd to say that FF9 auto-loses to them because they can't get a blocker because of the system.  

Then again, for me, this matters not (allow anything anyway), but it's the principle that's always bugged me.  Found it a bit hippy.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

XS's extraction skills are also a legitimate in-game way to block status, yet I hardly see anyone waving "XS cast is status-immune". It even has a slightly stronger case than FF9, in that the equipments that you extract the skills from... also immune the statuses (but, outside the Poison blocker, are all OPG and the entire cast seriously wants them). In FF9, it's solely a property of the skill. If you equip the item that has the confusion immunity skill, you don't block Confusion: you have to equip the skill via the crystals, and if you have the skill mastered, you don't even need the equipment.

The distinction is certainly arbitrary, yes, and your mileage may vary (once more). But, personally, FF9 can cry me a river for not having even more equipment cheese than it already has. I make that distinction for games such as XS-XS2 or WA2 and 3 (all of those having far less options than FF9 in the equipment front to begin with) as well when it comes to universal skills that the characters have no way of learning on their own. Sucks for them, but them's the breaks.

[OblivionKnight]

TO be fair, I do allow the XS blockers too via the skills (not...like it's come up recently).  It's just the way systems do things differently, and...well, if you have a reason to allow it in the first place for a specific system (equipment), it feels off to not do it for another system (abilities), when the end result is the same.

[OblivionKnight]

Of course, now I sound like a FF9 fan!  Argh!

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Well, as said before, it's a fuzzy distinction. You have no obligation to follow through it. But, in my case, I just think that the universal skills are more a characteristic of a system than a characteristic of a character. You could say something similar to equips, I guess, but that's why the distinction is arbitrary. It's just a can of worms that I prefer keeping close by making the universal equipment/skill separation, since it gets messy to me otherwise.

[OblivionKnight]

Fair enough. 

Not like this helps Vivi, anyway >_>

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Pretty much, yeah. Arguing is just fun. >_>

[Talaysen]

Why can't you just force them to equip the equipment they need to learn the status-blocking skill to block the status?  That makes a hell of a lot more sense than just banning it outright.  It also enforces the restriction that status-blocking equips have in general (giving up a slot for it).

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Doesn't change the fundamental - the equipment doesn't grant the skill, if you equip the armor and leave it as is, the character can't use the skill. The skill isn't necessarily attached to the equipment, and, with this distinction, it matters. I ban the skill, not the equip, and the equip doesn't grant the skill's activation in any way, just its learning.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Snow pretty much took the words out of my mouth, yeah. Skills =/= equips. I don't see why FF9 should get their statusblocking skills and other games don't just because they come from an equip and not another source a la DDS, WA circa 2000-2004, etc.

[Meeplelard]

In credit to WA2's case, Status Blocking there was a permanent ordeal, and letting them swap on a fly would be going against the game's fundamentals.

[Dark Holy Elf]

The counterargument would be that none of the other skills are DL legal, and I'm fairly certain that 43 (or whatever endgame is) levels is enough to cover all the statusblockers, so no swapping need occur. For all that I see your point that the overhead to even access those skills is higher, because you do give up more in-game stuff.

Regardless, that doesn't negate all the other examples, anyway.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I see Tal's point, though.

Allow the character to use the skill -only- if s/he has the accessory equipped at the time (removing any other accessories they may be using). Basically, they can equip the skill, but they never have it long enough to learn it. (And if someone has equipment breaking abilities, they'd lose it).

To me, it seems similar to how people view item-casting. If they can equip it and use it in-game, then they can do so in the DL. Reminds me of Lufia2 IP attacks, too.

I can definitely see the reason for not allowing universal skills just because they are a game's method of status-blocking, though. XS & WAs are good examples, but even more scary would be FF8. Suddenly you'd be allowing spell junctioning (at least the status spells!) as a universal status-blocker. ToS also does this with EX Gems, which are its method of full-status blocking and -also- requires consumable items to get.

Of course, I personally lean towards allowing all of that for the sake of status blocking assuming there's enough to go around. (WA3 characters love me for this. ...and it's also why I allow Grandia characters limited magic options.)

-Djinn

[Magic Fanatic]

Godlike

Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9) - Go Ghaleon!
Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA) - Go Van!
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6)
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoFs) - Myria.  As much as I'd love it to be Ryu, I don't see a way for him to win.

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2) - If Hugo's status wasn't turn 1 and one disallowed Yellow Scarves, then Lang actually stands a good chance of winning by equipping a weapon with a status attached.  But other than that...  Yeah, Lang explodes.
Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3)
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7) - Yay Edgar!
Dias Flac (SO2) vs. Percival Fraulein (S3)

Middle

Nina (BoF5) vs. Koromaru (P3)
Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8) - Match of unrequited fail.
Jessica Philomele (MK) vs. Heath (FE7) - Go Jessica!
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1) - I don't know, I want to allow FF9 characters to be able to block status by skills provided by weapons/armor characters can equip.  That said, Vivi can win, since if he still has his absorption strategy through that, he eventually wears down Alhazad by nature of Trancing and Doublecasting.

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC)
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7) - Match of unrequited fail.
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3)
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA)

[Dark Holy Elf]

That said, Vivi can win, since if he still has his absorption strategy through that, he eventually wears down Alhazad by nature of Trancing and Doublecasting.

If you allow doubleturns here, then Alhazad wins with a doubleturn eventually because Vivi has pathetic WA1 speed after Slow Down. If you don't allow Doubleturns, then Vivi STILL has issues winning, because he has MP issues.

Vivi: Flare
Alhazad: Symphony
Vivi: Water on self
Repeat last two steps until Vivi trances
Vivi: Water on self, Flare
Alhazad: Symphony
Vivi: Flare, Flare

Assuming four Flares kill Alhazad, which is reasonable enough. Flare is notably below average damage (Alhazad resists Vivi's best damage, Doomsday) and Alhazad has good MDef so four is probably generous, but we'll go with this.

Four Flares cost 160 MP, leaving Vivi with seven Waters. This means he has to Trance after seven of Alhazad's attacks. I really don't think Trance activates anywhere near that fast, although I don't know precisely how the mechanic works.

[Clear Tranquil]

Maria's Energy Burst is a poor HP killer if we're looking at it in comparison to other post game skills like Max Shockwave and Dream Hammer or DL wise Faerie Friend, even in game Energy Burst is better of as an MP damage skill vs randoms/bosses with low MP. Rapid fire Scatter Beam combos is where the best HP damage in the game is at in most cases. Though yeah Energy Burst might be better in the DL than SB but it still doesn't make Maria one of the top three SO3 damage dealers in the DL I don't think.

Edit: .... and I think wrong! Apparently. She actually does beat out Cliff ;o (Peppita > Nel > Maria > Cliff > Mirage > average > everyone else) Remember those averages are without Power Dance or Power Up factored in ... so yeah she might just have a chance.

Snowfire -

1) Peppita - 58711 (Short X-Fairie Friend X 125%-Fairie Friend O 175%-Fairie Friend X 225%) [9% HP loss]
2) Nel - 42240 (Short X-Divine Wrath X 125%-Divine Wrath O 175%) [17% HP loss]
3) Maria - 42112 (Short X-Energy Burst X 125%) [4% HP loss]

Energy Burst is off her X slot ;)

[074]

Godlike

Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA) - Yeah.  Van gets this one, to me.
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6) - ID or speedgame from hell.
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoFs) - Ryu unleashes G-DRGN, destroyer of worlds!...and then Myria completely splatters him anyway.

Heavy

Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3) - I'll have to take a look at this later.
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7) - FE versus status.  FE versus ACCURATE status.  End of story.

Middle

Nina (BoF5) vs. Koromaru (P3) - Kneejerking insofar that I don't remember Nina getting light-based ID on a first run, which I'm basing things on.  If she has a way of getting it in the Center, that may be different...

Light

Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7) - Never got that far in FE7.  People quoting Axeman get shot.
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3) - I'm certain that Slash has some ITE.  That alone stomps Thomas.

[Bardiche]

Godlike

Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9) - Can vote for this, actually. Unsurprisingly Ghaleon wins.
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6)
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoFs) - Buying the Guts hype.

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2)
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7) - Goes first, counters, wins.
Dias Flac (SO2) vs. Percival Fraulein (S3) - 0 respect for Dias.

Middle

Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8) - Played an arena match of Eliwood versus a hacked Matthew made to resemble Colm. Too little Luck to effectively Assassinate, and Eliwood hits pretty hard (and actually hits), so yes.
Jessica Philomele (MK) vs. Heath (FE7) - Jessica durability.
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1)

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC)
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7) - critical splat

[Talaysen]

Nina (BoF5) vs. Koromaru (P3) - Kneejerking insofar that I don't remember Nina getting light-based ID on a first run, which I'm basing things on.  If she has a way of getting it in the Center, that may be different...

If you mean Kyrie, Nina can get that on a first run.  Remember abusing it quite a bit myself.

[VySaika]

Godlike

Ghaleon (Lunars) vs. Naesala (FE9) - I want to say Naesala beats LL Ghaleon, actually. But dunno for sure.
Valvalis (FF4) vs. Vandesdelca Musto Fende (TotA) - Sure, I'll buy the Val hype.
Rika (PS4) vs. Terra Branford (FF6) - Coinflip here.
Ryu (BoF2) vs. Myria (BoFs) - Aww.

Heavy

Hugo (S3) vs. Lang (LoL2) - See Monkey. If Lang blocks the status, he gets mulched by the knifework. If he goes for defense, he gets statused out.
Kornell (G3) vs. Maria Traydor (SO3) - Highish Kornell respect.
Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) vs. Lyndis (FE7) - Confusion works.
Dias Flac (SO2) vs. Percival Fraulein (S3) - Dias heal lock Percy? Yeah, no.

Middle

Nina (BoF5) vs. Koromaru (P3) - She has Light ID? Okay then! EDIT: Oh, only hits undead? Yeah, that's more specialized then "Light ID" then.
Eliwood (FE7) vs. Colm (FE8) - The doubles, they hurt.
Jessica Philomele (MK) vs. Heath (FE7) - Can't kill before the crit.
Vivi Ornitier (FF9) vs. Alhazad (WA1) - I allow the status blocking! It doesn't help!

Light

Camus (S2) vs. Miki (CC) - Not a Light.
Dorcas (FE7) vs. Hawkeye (FE7) - Ooookay. So, they both 3HKO without crits, they both have the same range which is what I use to determine FE init. However, Dorcas can opt for a handaxe and still 3HKOs with Handaxe x2/Silver Axe x1. Hawkeye cannot do the same, so even if he opts for a handaxe as well to counter, this is a winning move for Dorcas. Assume Dorcas goes first here. Handaxe hit, either avoid a counter or tank a handaxe counter. Counter with the Handaxe on his turn, then swap to Silver and take the kill. Assume Hawkeye opts for a handaxe and goes first(if Hawkeye doesn't opt for a handaxe Dorcus goes first for me, range advantage), he attacks with a handaxe, gets countered. Dorcus moves in and attacks, Hawkeye counters with the handaxe. Hawkeye will die on Dorcas's counter if he doesn't get that Killing Axe crit because he can't 3HKO with 2 handaxe shots and a Silver Axe. Odds of him getting that crit are roughly 45%? That's good...but I don't think it's enough. The odds favor Dorcas.
Slash (CT) vs. Thomas (S3) - Aww.
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA) - I think?

[Talaysen]

I want to point out that in-game Kyrie only hits undead.  However, you could interpret that as them being weak to Light and Kyrie only hitting people weak to Light.  Either way makes sense, I think.

[Dhyerwolf]

XS's extraction skills are also a legitimate in-game way to block status, yet I hardly see anyone waving "XS cast is status-immune". It even has a slightly stronger case than FF9, in that the equipments that you extract the skills from... also immune the statuses (but, outside the Poison blocker, are all OPG and the entire cast seriously wants them). In FF9, it's solely a property of the skill. If you equip the item that has the confusion immunity skill, you don't block Confusion: you have to equip the skill via the crystals, and if you have the skill mastered, you don't even need the equipment.

The distinction is certainly arbitrary, yes, and your mileage may vary (once more). But, personally, FF9 can cry me a river for not having even more equipment cheese than it already has. I make that distinction for games such as XS-XS2 or WA2 and 3 (all of those having far less options than FF9 in the equipment front to begin with) as well when it comes to universal skills that the characters have no way of learning on their own. Sucks for them, but them's the breaks.

Just to note, I also allow some of the XS extraction skills (Some of them are apparentally on some tier that's unreasonable for everyone to get, so I don't theoretically allow those even if I don't remember the game well enough to say what statuses those actually are).

We already make an exception to allow the universal status blockers (being universal or generally so) so the line between that and universal skills that aren't otherwise legal seems pretty slim. I guess you could make the sole difference for FF 9 and XS the need to get AP or extract, but in FF 9's case that's a pretty minor thing in game (Again, don't remember XS! Actually, did FF 9 need AP to use the skills, or did it need AP to keep the skill after the equip is de-equipped). From what I remember of ACF, this isn't an issue though. Just seems like they are basically equivalent things, and one of them is already an exception to the general rules that we enacted so that status didn't get overinflated.

Granted, there are some casts who just can't get the skills due to them being to something illegal, but universal, easily gotten skills definetely strike me as something far different than DDS/FF 8/WA 3 issues (FF 9/ACF ones are even gotten by some storebought means!).

If you only interpret Kyrie as hitting undead (As I do!), you probably also shouldn't just assume that Death is Dark elemental.

[Talaysen]

Actually, did FF 9 need AP to use the skills, or did it need AP to keep the skill after the equip is de-equipped).

I believe this is true.  So the equipment does give you the status protection as well.