PokeMafia - Day 4

[Strago]

Good morning, world. Sigh. Day 1 is such a load of bollocks.

Since our time is markedly shorter than usual, I find myself more drawn to the "Just Lynch Somebody Already" approach than I usually am. That said... well, no. I guess I thought I agreed with that tactic, but now in the space of a sentence I've changed my mind. Because we're looking at a Day 1 that ends 18 hours (right? I'm bad at math) from now and has no chance -- barring extension shenanigans -- of down-to-the-wire train nonsense in order to get a majority meeting a deadline, I suppose I don't see why we need to rush into nailing anybody just yet. Talking about this jazz is our only reliable anti-Magma* tool, so let's not be so quick to end the day.

*And Aqua? Thirding that query about multiple scum teams.

Why is everyone so hot to lynch Sylon, anyway? Are there many copies? Do they have a plan?

[Meeplelard]

Holy crap, the game started and I didn't know about it!

...that said, I have to actually go back and read everyone's posts.  I'm mostly just posting this for a "yeah, I'm alive, don't mod-kill me just yet!" thing.

So yeah, I'll give a "substantial" (much as you can for Day 1) post in a bit, just felt people might find it weird I wasn't doing anything considering I'm well, me (I don't necessarily mean in a Mafia suspicious way, I just mean in a "Did Meeple forget the game exists? Replacement!" kind of way)

[Meeplelard]

Ok, actually did some reading!  I thought there may have actually been SOMETHING that has gone on, given Snowfire's wall of text, but now I see that was just some sort of really, comprehensively thought out joke post with some mild seriousness at the end.

Reactions to it might be worth looking into.  Delta's seems pretty much just a generic reaction, going on about "You made a big wall of text just for a few serious lines at the end? You're crazy!" so yeah, not seeing anything wrong with that.

Xanth...I find odd though.  Of all things, he goes after Snowfire's Vote on himself...which he removed INSTANTLY IN THE SAME POST, making the vote effectively not there, which I think, as Rat pointed out, was just the silly ridiculous shenanigans of early day 1; all this shit happens for no good reason, just for amusement!  I dunno, strikes me as weird that he'd attack something so obviously intentionally silly, during a stage in the game where there is nothing serious.

So yeah, why not, I don't have much else to go on, though "Vote on Sylon cause he has votes" just to get a lynch in doesn't seem like a bad idea if the day stretches out a little longer, but for now...

##Vote: Xanth

----
OOC, if Snowfire was -1 to Hammer and did that, would he get hammered, or do votes get counted up at the *END* of the post?  This is just general mafia mechanics discussion here, I highly doubt a situation like this would occur, cause no one would be stupid enough to pull a joke stunt like that if they're -1 to Hammer.

[Luther Lansfeld]

VOTECOUNT

Yoshiken(1): Bardiche
Snowfire(1): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(1): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard

[Xanth]

Meeple, you're reading a different section of game theory from me. The point about self-voting is less about actually having a vote on yourself as it is about not interacting with other people. The benefits of it for scum are an even more minimalistic track to follow posthumously. It reads worse than simply not taking part in the joke phase as it looks like you're trying to actively take part without actually doing anything. The fact that Snow didn't actually keep a vote down on himself is completely irrelevant to the fact that he took part in the joke vote phase without actually taking part.

Yes, joke phase, shmoke phase, it's not like town are incapable of being random in this manner, and sure it's not the linchpin of a lynch or anything (even I called it no more than a 'mild indicator'), but it was the most outstanding element from the start of day one in my eyes, and still looks better than the roulette spin that's put Sylon out in front.

In turn, I'm a little bit concerned about the sensationalistic tone of your post. Also note that we don't have to get a majority to get a lynch - a plurality at time up is fine too - so the prospect of 'voting Sylon just to make sure we get a lynch' is not sound.

(and yes, in your outlined situation Snow would indeed be lynched. See how his vote turns up on vote counts: it technically counted for an instant, it should just never matter)

[Excal]

Huh, yeah.  I'll admit that when it happened, Snow doing a self-vote was a pretty notable thing, and combined with the insane joke post after it.  Sadly, I do mostly agree with Rat, that I'm not sure how it's a tell one way or the other, but it's also one of the best things we have so far, and I would gladly switch to him right now if it weren't for two things.

Namely, I think the reactions to the Sylon train are fascinating, give us something we wouldn't get otherwise, and generally it is currently still helpful.  And I don't think it would continue to be so if undercut now.  And secondly, I should be back with enough time left in order to participate fully in day end.  So, I'll be able to react accordingly once everyone's had time to react.

And, yes.  Seconding Xanth on the matter of fact way Meeple says he'll just pile on.  Suggests the rules weren't read closely, nor all of the posts since there was at least one reference to no hatbotting, which doesn't happen if there's enforced no lynch at day end if majority isn't reached.  Well, either that, or it's there as an excuse to just pile on if need be.  At least everyone else there is either a joke vote or hasn't expressed interest in anyone they find there's a case on.

[Kilgamayan]

I believe the point of knocking on self-voting is that you shouldn't be voting for the one person you're 100% sure isn't scum (you) (assuming you're town, of course).

So I see a Sylon train, a silly song-and-dance by SnowFire and a self-vote attack by Xanth.

- The Sylon train will do as all trains of its ilk do - I'm content to watch it play out.
- SnowFire's useless WoT is annoying in that I ended up wasting time reading the whole thing, but is it actually bad? He's going to have to contribute eventually, and if he keeps trying that song-and-dance shtick said wall will likely only be used against him. I don't see how ScumFire benefits from it.
- Xanth attacks a self-vote that was unvoted in the same post - and for the wrong reason to boot. This could be Early Day 1™ Case, it could be trying to find anything he can latch onto. I can't see a reason to think SnowFire's WoT worse than this, so I'm content leaving my vote (no longer a joke) where it is.

[Bardiche]

I don't like how Excal trumpets about the usefulness of the Sylon train, stating it as if he is some bystander awaiting all the others to react. My right honourable friend, it feels to me like a cop-out to simply avoid having to do anything unless in response to others.

##VOTE: Meeple, funny how that works out given the previous game. However,

though "Vote on Sylon cause he has votes" just to get a lynch in doesn't seem like a bad idea if the day stretches out a little longer, but for now...

the issue I take with this citation of your post is your assertion that voting on Sylon just to get a lynch in is in no way, shape or form a good idea to me. In fact, it's a terrible idea and undoubtedly not at all the goal.

My second issue is that we will get a lynch either way, as there is no "No Lynch" option. Your logic therein confuses me.

Thirdly, I do not take it well how you mention something about the "day stretching on", as it is Day 1. The more posts people make, the more posts we can examine in the following days, which gives us more information. Information is key in this game, I see no reason to prematurely end Day 1 for a random lynch.

[Bardiche]

Grammar correction, the line after the citation should, of course, read:

"the issue I take with this citation of your post is your assertion that voting on Sylon just to get a lynch in is a good idea. In no way, shape or form is this a good ide to me. In fact, it's a terrible idea and undoubtedly not at all the goal of the present train."

[Bardiche]

formalities

##UNVOTE: Yoshiken
##VOTE: Meeple

[Excal]

You think so, Bard?  Honestly, one person can't do much at the beginning of day 1.  You need reactions so that you can try and dig out how people think.  Take a look at where we were when that third vote went on Sylon.  The most suspicious thing was Bard's self vote.  It isn't until we get Meeple and Xanth discussing Snow's antics (half of which happened after the Sylon train started) that we begin to have anything outside of reactions to a big train that can actually be used.

So, yes.  You're right.  People should totally try and keep pro-active and be useful.  But, no matter how active you are, if people haven't actually posted anything but jokes of varying degrees of freshness, then there's little useful to make an opinion from.

[Bardiche]

I hold that truth to be self-evident: you can't make cases out of simple jokes and jests. But all the same I do not like it when people actively state they're going to await other people's actions before taking action themselves, knowing full-well other people are faced with the same dilemma.

Xanth and Meeple case is, by the way, unconnected to the Sylon train and therefore your argument therein is null and void. The Sylon train has given us nothing of value for discussion--you can hardly argue a random lynch train.

[QuietRain]

VOTECOUNT

Yoshiken(1): Bardiche
Snowfire(1): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(1): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard
Meepleard: Bardiche

Mod Clarification as per request: Nothing has changed from when the setup was announced til now except that a few Pokemon were swapped out for other Pokemon for my own amusement.  Everything stated in the original interest thread is correct.

[Xanth]

Given how clearly the Magma/Aqua was announced in the interest thread, I'll take that as a 'yes' even with the one-sided flavour at the start of the thread.

Sylon: can we actually hear from you? I've seen you lurking the board repeatedly through the day, but not a peep out of you here. I know there's not much you can say in your defence of a roulette lynch on you, but it's an odd time to be silent nonetheless.

Kilga: I have little else to add. It is a start of day one thread, and one that I felt was worth pursuing, but seems to be going precisely nowhere given neither Snow around (time and work schedule, I'm sure) nor much directly related discussion. To answer your question, sure, a theoretical scumSnow would eventually have to contribute or get cut, but benefits in the meantime by not needing to do so now or get caught by the simple measures people tend to fall to on day one. Also, your rationale ('doing something that would make sense for town or scum in equal parts') seems worse than the one you're hitting me for ('doing something that is slightly tipped into scummy').

I still hold it as stronger than a lot out there at the moment, but this looks like the time to do:

##Unvote: Snowfire
##Vote: Meeplelard

Between the clear lack of momentum on the former, narrowing down the field in a meaningful way given the press of time, and just by simple comparison. Meeple's is the only serious push that I can get behind at this point, assuming that Sylon breaks his silence sensibly. I have nothing to add on Meeple since my previous post.


I don't really have much in the way of reads otherwise. Bard reads slightly town, Delta looks a little bad, my Excal scanner is still overheating from last game, and plenty of people just need to be here more first (Ryogo's the only complete absentee, but others have just been here for the start and no more).

I'll still be around on and off through the afternoon and evening, but will almost certainly miss the last bunch of hours to sleep, so I'm looking to shore things up by then, rather than closer to the deadline.

[Xanth]

Also, your rationale ('doing something that would make sense for town or scum in equal parts') seems worse than the one you're hitting me for ('doing something that is slightly tipped into scummy').

Disregard that, that's blatantly unfair of me. Obviously you believe that the self-vote is a completely neutral tag or we wouldn't be here in the first place.

[SnowFire]

Wait.  What the?  There's no hurry, because...  oh.  The time for Day 1 used to be 72 hours!  Ugh.  So now at 36 hours it's even less than a regular day?  Not quite everything is in the same as the original post...

##EXTENSION

I remember wondering if Excal was crazy from his post, since we were obviously only a 1/3 done with a real life day at that point, but only 1/9 into Mafia Day 1.  (And yes, I reread the rules.  Changing a number was a subtle change I missed.)

Anyway, yes, Day 1 sucks, etc., but it'll suck more in retrospect if we don't have at least some time to sort things out.  Let's have an extension - I don't believe Ryogo's posted at all, and quite a few people haven't posted past the joke votes phase.  We need to get some idea of where people stand.  Since I got burned on this before, can I request that others either vote for the extension as well, or outright say "Sorry, I don't think we need one?"  Last time I tried this, in Simpsons Mafia, it just kind of got ignored.

---

Delta: There are...  so many things I disagree with in your post.  I'll try to be brief.
* I was composing that message before Excal had even posted.  Check the timestamps.
* Even after I saw Excal's post, if silly posts have no place on RL Day 1 of a Mafia game, then where do they have a place?  It is a game, after all.
* Joke votes and rambling introduction posts actually do have a purpose, and serve a pro-town role.  Most importantly, they give town something to work with so that we can vote on each other.  Detecting scum to some extent is a matter of how they interact, so we need an excuse to chat.  If nobody starts anything then we're stuck sitting around staring at each other.  Go ahead and vote me because you find something suspicious in my post, sure, but please don't criticize me for *making* it.
* If that qualifies as a Wall of Words...  just compare it to some of the posts in earlier games.  (Same to Kilgamayan - am I totally insane here?  That post isn't long at all...)
* As far as contentless, that post had literally nothing to work with but Excal and jokevotes, so yeah.  I made do with pointing out that Aqua/Magma deal.
* You might have noticed I was one of the last people to sign up for the game.  I'm not a Pokemon fan either.  But...  any setting has some value.  I think I'll quite enjoy my time as a ghost overlord of the Temple isle.

---

Anyway.  Srs bizness time I guess.  I was hoping that other people would post more get-things-started-blather, and then we could pick through the most suspicious of the blather, or at least we'd know each other Pokemon types, but it seems 'tis not to be.

Sylon train: I agree with Excal, put somebody on the spot, get things moving.  How suspicious this is will depend on how Sylon responds (and flips if we end up lynching).  I'd vote Sylon myself, but there's a considerable number of votes there already and I don't want to move too close to hammer.

SnowFire suspicions: Xanth is right, a self-vote does give me 0.1 scum points / 10.  It's not actually right here, of course, but Day 1 (TM).

Delta: So...  I try to get things moving with a more inane post (though with some serious parts tacked on), and you jump on it immediately.  But you don't vote me either.  In fact you haven't voted for anyone at all.  It's Day 1, do something, anything, to get things moving.  If you thought I was authentically suspicious you should have voted me, not merely attacked me.  I find *this* mildly suspicious (by Day 1 (TM) standards)  So...

##VOTE Deltaflyer[/b

(Ninja'd by Xanth, but...  nothing in particular to respond to.  Yeah, I didn't get a chance to look this morning, so I actually did come home over lunch today.  Hopefully this post should provide some non-joke material as to me.)

[Yoshiken]

Post to say I'm still here and my thoughts on the recent developments (as minimal as they are. >_>)

As much as it'd be appreciated, I don't think we're gonna get any clarification on 3rd-parties past the opening post's "There may or may not be third parties." Which sucks.

I'm really not seeing why Sylon's Stockpiling votes at all, other than "Why not?" which doesn't appeal to me - although I'm more the person to sit and Safeguard over making a Quick Attack.
Xanth's post reads to me as he says - not a huge Uproar, just the best available - a Last Resort, if you will.
Delta, on the other hand, seems quite overly aggressive - not something that reads well to me - and is probably one of the better things to go by so far.
Meeple's post does strike me as quite odd, but nowhere near as much as Delta's.
So, simply because it is the best course of action so far, in my opinion:
##Vote: Delta

It's worth us not lynching anyone until deadline, simply for the fact that that gives us more time to Chatter and come up with something to be used later on.

Finally, just in case, I'll post this now - my internet's been hideously unreliable lately, so I might disappear over the next 4-5 days. My trainer dad should be getting a new modem/connection, just in case, but I might be around less over the next few days. Thankfully, I'll be able to post from college, so long as there's no swearing in the topic (Damn college filter...) so I won't have to Withdraw. If I can't access the topic from college, then I'll PM a mod about it.

P.S. Excuse the pun-ny comments throughout this post.


Xanth & Snow Ninjas - No new comments on Xanth's post. Seems Snow's post says a lot of the same as mine, so... what a waste it was, me typing this all up. >_>
[end Ninja]

Now, off to find me an avatar for my (utterly useless) (Bug >.<) Pokemon. =P

[Luther Lansfeld]

VOTECOUNT

Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(1): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(1): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat
Deltaflyer2k8(2): Sylon, Snowfire
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard
Meeplelard(2): Bardiche, Xanth

[Yoshiken]

Ah, forgot to add. I'm with Snow on the Day1 being too short thing.

##Extension

We've not really got anything solid yet, and I don't see that Transform-ing too much soon, so seems like an extension to the day is the best approach.

(Yes, the Pokemon attack jokes will (hopefully) continue throughout.)

(Also, my vote is missing from that update. ^^'')

[QuietRain]

VOTECOUNT

Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(0): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(1): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat
Deltaflyer2k8(3): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard
Meeplelard(2): Bardiche, Xanth

VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(2) : SnowFire, Yoshiken

[Bardiche]

What exactly makes you feel as though Delta was being overly aggressive, Yoshiken? Was it the tone of the post or specific lines in it?

[Yoshiken]

The tone of it, primarily. Sure, Snow carried on with the joke stage, but to attack him on that despite it being the first post since the first call for serious mafia seems somewhat ridiculous.

However, looking back again, he then complains about a lack of serious posting & the fact that Snow made a long post to say very little, yet then gives us an Encore, saying the same thing two or three times in that post.
Finally, to finish off, he... doesn't comment on anyone or anything else. If you're gonna Lock On to someone else for not being serious, it's probably better to at least lend a Helping Hand yourself...

(Oh, and the poll count is still out - I voted Delta, not Meeple.)

[Strago]

Uh. Going to have to disagree with your "guess we'll never know" assessment, Yoshiken. QR's verdict seems pretty clear to me:

Also, this is role-madness.  But not in the way you’ll likely think.  For one thing, I’m being up front about part of the setup.  This is Pokemon.  There is a Team Magma scum team and a Team Aqua scum team.

Mod Clarification as per request: Nothing has changed from when the setup was announced til now except that a few Pokemon were swapped out for other Pokemon for my own amusement.  Everything stated in the original interest thread is correct.

I guess it's true that there might be some fourth non-Scum non-Town party out there, but it's a little too early to start twisting ourselves in knows over that, so: there are two scum teams, unless there's some other way to interpret our lovely mod that I'm somehow missing entirely.

Can't say I'm a big fan of extending the day just yet. For all that I don't think we should be in a rush to end it prematurely, I'm also aware (perhaps too much so) of how easily people can get fatigued/frustrated by Mafia 'round these parts. Setting a precedent for extending days makes that more likely. And fatigue categorically hurts town, in my 'sperience.

Of course we also have... twelve hours left? Oof. Blurg. Et cetera.

Eh, I'm not really seeing the validity of wagging a finger at Delta for the tone of his post. After all, he apologized for the only potentially-offensive bit before anyone called him out. Looks like a wash to me.

Sylon train looks as bad as all Day 1 "let's lynch any person for info" trains do to me. Which is to say that I understand the impulse but can never bring myself to trust it.

Meep and Xanth are the others with multiple votes cast against them? I shall take a look.

[Yoshiken]

Ahh, fair enough. I was looking at the opening post instead of the interest topic post. ^^'

[Nietz]

OBJECTION!

Don't get on the co-mod's bad side by INSULTING POKEMON!

Not at all. I had my period of PokeAddiction, and am only afraid I might fall into it again. (But that'd be kinda hard because there's so damn many of them now that it's too confusing).

Anyway, srs bsns.
##Unvote

I didn't like the way Meeple encouraged a possible Sylon lynch while voting for Xanth. His points against Xanth seemed too much of a "gotcha" to me, and the encouragement of the Sylon train looks like bait for another scum to make a mistake.

I definitely wasn't up for voting Sylon for inactivity, but seeing this:

Sylon: can we actually hear from you? I've seen you lurking the board repeatedly through the day, but not a peep out of you here. I know there's not much you can say in your defence of a roulette lynch on you, but it's an odd time to be silent nonetheless.

If that's true, then Sylon's (lack of) actions becomes definitely suspicious.

Anyway, will hold on vote until Sylon has something to say.
Also, ##Extension.