PokeMafia - Day 4

[Nietz]

Also,

How bout some more people vote Snow so we can get a majority lynch on him?  I have nothing else in particular to post.

Majority vote will extend the day 24 hours.

[Excal]

Majrity vote for extension will extend.  Majority vote for lynch ends day right then and there.

[EvilTom]

If everyone is set on SF, I'm happy to move my vote onto him to speed up the inevitable. Shouldn't he claim then?

[Nietz]

Majrity vote for extension will extend.  Majority vote for lynch ends day right then and there.

D'oh! My bad.

[Meeplelard]

Well, seems a big Snowfire train has occured while I was sleeping. *Damn it all or something!

Anyway, Snowfire's looking worse than what I initially thought for reasons people have been pointing out, though I can't say I feel confident about this...but its a day 1 lynch, confidence beyond some really big scum slip is going to be shakey.  So while I'm not moving my vote *NOW*, I'm declaring my intent to hammer him when I come back from school, if the day's still on.

*I'm just daming the fact that I woke up to like 30 new posts that needed reading and was totally NOT expecting that, not so much cause of what happened in those posts; don't take this the wrong way <_<;

I will say one thing though...

Also, I noticed that OblivionKnight and Strago have tried to keep a particularly low profile as well, specially the later. I just think Sylon's case is worse right now for actively trying to keep it down even when the attention was onto him.

Strago, maybe.  He's been talking, if not frequently, but at least he's participating.
OK? I'm not sure "Low profile" counts so much as he hasn't been here at all.  As I said, though, I haven't seen him much online in the past 24 hours at all, so there's a good chance he actually has legit RL reasons; though if this keeps up throughout the next day, I'm expecting a modkill.

[Ranmilia]

Sleeping now.  Still nothing new to say.

[EvilTom]

Well bed for me. ##Unvote; ##Vote SF Hopefully you people on the other side of the globe will get to see the flip a bit earlier or something.

[QuietRain]

VOTECOUNT

Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(7): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Xanth, Deltaflyer, EvilTom
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(0): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(0): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
Ryogo (0): SnowFire
Excal (1): SnowFire

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.  Deadline in a little over 16 hours.

NOTE: Sylon's player has asked to be removed from the game.  I will not be replacing him, so he has been modkilled.  As it's still Day 1, this does not end the Day.
-----------------------------------------------------
As the Pokemon argued amongst themselves over which of them were trying to invade the temple, one pokemon was curiously silent.  Many pokemon commented on his lack of contribution to the conversation and finally they realized that not only had he not contributed in a while, he wasn't even with them.  Heading back to the plane, they found the Nosepass sitting next to his trainer's body.  They arrived just in tiem to watch him explode as his grief look precedence over his desire to ferret out the Magma pokemon.  His form re-appeared, unconcious.  A thourough search of his things yielded nothing and  the group returned to their arguing.

Sylon (Nosepass) has been self KOd. (Town Aligned, Passive One-Shot Bulletproof)

[Xanth]

Right, I'm around. I'll basically be 'around' until about 6:30pm, after which I'll try and at least refresh the page once an hour or so, and will set my alarm for the same time tomorrow morning for the actual deadline.

Let's start with a brief (as not to WOT) review of everyone before zooming in more. Delta, Sylon and Bard were the three without votes come the 'deadline' for whatever that's worth, although in at least Bard's case this seems a deliberately measured play.


Tom: Lift off the veil of 'my vote must be here or it's useless' and I'm relatively content. Has kind of drifted in the last bunch of posts, but at least started strong enough.

Ryogo:

Yoshi: Happy enough for now. Been around a fair bit, talked on a decent range of subjects. Only point against is the 'going by instinct' and such from here. Looking through his posts made me realise that 'Xanth picked on Delta' is made weirder by both Yoshi and Snow having picked up that ball and running with it before I got tarred with that at all (okay, on reading through other people's material I do see that Yoshi was also hit for this by multiple people, although not transpiring into votes).

Excal: Not sure I see the case on Excal, unless it runs that he focussed on Snow completely from the point he put the vote down on him, which doesn't read unreasonably to me.

Rat: No concerns.

Alex: Very late effective entry to the game, toppled back by the content that's followed. Similar with Excal, I can only see a 'tunnel vision on Snow' argument here, but would disagree with it.

Strago: Effectively joined the game with 12 hours from the 'deadline' (partially disregard this - the more I check other people, the more this equates with other people). Wishy-washy and lightly involved despite a fair wad of text.

Kilga: Active, aggressive and well-spread, so content.

Meeple:

Delta: Low content. Effectively two posts with not much content? I don't understand his tiers (from here) at all, primarily because it's not expanded on at all. Town-Neutral, Neutral and Post More categories? Where are the suspicions? Why is OK in the Town-Neutral section from one joke vote? Why am I under Post More?

Sylon: Effectively one post, which mostly covered stale material in a stale manner. Still weirded out by how much he lurks and reads the thread without actually posting. Hotly anticipating his hopefully imminent return to get an actual direct scan on him other than 'super lurker'.

Bard: Paced slowly for the day, which is bad but at least consistent with the extension vote. Any particular reason why you left the plug for extension quite so late when it looked clear that you weren't reaching any sort of 'conclusion' any time soon? The simplest explanation would be if you would've preferred to see myself lynched over Snow, but I shouldn't just assume that to be the case.

OK: Hasn't been here at all since the very start. 40 hours and counting. No point in commenting at this point, as it should currently be in the hands of Mod.

Snowfire:

Nietz: Possibly because of New [To Me] Player Syndrome, I don't really have a grasp yet. Low content.


Right, well, this is taking bloody ages (unsurprisingly, I guess), so let's split it off here. Missing ones and conclusion will follow in another post (I did them in order of posting in the topic (sans Snow), before anyone gets confused).


Ninja: oh well, at least that resolves the Sylon thing. Best wishes that you get well soon, you evil clone army.

[Strago]

Jesu Cristi, people. The point of Mafia is to give Strago something to do at work, not abandon him all day and then write four pages when he’s at rehearsal/asleep. ;_;  Alright. Let’s see, here. Brief reply to something, to start us off:

Snow's actions were silly, as stated.  The secondary train on Xanth stemming from them... feels like it should be good enough, but I have a bad gut reaction to it right now.  Possibly because of the people on it.  Probably because this post from Strago, wherein he says all current cases are bad and doesn't vote, is the only thing that really tipped my "What" detector so far.

I wasn't convinced by cases at the time, looked over things/took a break, and an hour later dropped a vote that I'd become comfortable with. That's all I got. I agree with your sentiment that trying to limit potential “viable targets” to Sylon and Xanth is dumb and bad. That said, now that Xanth has been around more and answered to the few problems I had with him… he doesn’t strike me as overwhelmingly townish, but I have no great yearning to see him hang.

##UNVOTE: Xanth

Okay, post is now about re-reading through the topic’s last three pages or so to make sure I didn’t miss things when I was exhausted last night, and to have the benefit of working through it all chronologically. I apologize for the wall of text. I wish I could stay up all night and do this in real-time, but I don’t function well that way.

Order of the day is now Snow, apparently. For all that I wasn’t excited about the extension, Snow’s post here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55039#msg55039) does pretty well explain his intentions and make a decent case for a 36-hour day not being long enough for impressive results. It’s not a causal relationship he presents, of course, but it makes sense to me.

HOWEVER:

Kilgamayan: See my logic before about how things would have gone if Sylon had a theoretical scumbuddy.  They have a perfectly justifiable reason to raise hell over the Sylon train, but that hasn't happened (except for me - this logic works best from my perspective, since I know I'm town; if Sylon flips scum, I will grant that I will look worse.). 

[...]

Excal: I'm hardly "sure" Sylon is town.  I do think that lynching him without letting him respond at all due to what are almost certainly RL issues would be stupid, though.  In fact, didn't we go through something similar in Simpsons Mafia?  Scum Andy and Meeple were attacking someone who wasn't there at all.  Sylon has at least been around a little, but worst comes to worst he gets modkilled.  And I've already explained why I'm voting Xanth - he's the only other option that stands a reasonable chance if there is no extension.  If you vote for an extension, you can fix that problem quite easily, and hopefully we can find a better train.

Think you sort of... shot yourself in the foot here, Snow. I see what sort of devil's advocate stuff you're trying to say, here, but actually for me it suddenly highlights in very stark relief the weirdness of your Sylon defense. Because it's always been characterized more accurately by "Don't Lynch Sylon, At Any Cost," than by, say, "Those Attempting to Lynch Sylon Are Scummy And Therefore Better Options." So really it does look like you and Sylon might be… might… be…

… and of course I’m ninja’d by the mod with confirmation that Sylon was one of the good guys. Which… huh. Theoretically makes Snow look better?

But then there’s this arbitrary number nonsense ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55071#msg55071) which just fills me with bloodrage and death-wanting. Especially since he isn’t even voting for the person who’s the numerically scummiest or whatever.

Mrff. Snow’s just been all about spinning his wheels and talking about who we shouldn’t lynch without producing any substantial arguments of his own and frankly using a lot of weird nonsensical doubletalk. I’ll go ahead and announce my intent to hammer, except now it’s annoying and semi-worthless because Snow’s gone and can’t potentially roleclaim. Blurg.

[Strago]

Random things:

Ryogo says something here about Carthrat on which I call shenanigans in a big way: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54979#msg54979. Namely that because he hasn’t shown up on the “active users logged in” list, he must necessarily not be lurking. What. Do you know how easy it is to log out of the boards and still be very actively reading the thread and even writing your posts? It is so easy. I’m not saying “lynch Rat” – dude’s an Aussie, after all – but that is a specious reason to wave away suspicion.

Nietz points the finger at me for “trying to keep a low profile,” which: I am? Eh. I’m doing what I can, but even when I’m around for long chunks of time it’s pretty hard for me to contribute as much in-the-moment as those bat-like (or Australian) types who are really in the fray during the busy hours.

As far as OK goes, do we have a number on how many hours of inactivity it takes before someone gets modkilled?

[Bardiche]

Strago, I'm presently posting. Please do not ninja me with a hammer, k? :V

[Strago]

Wouldn't dream of it.

[Bardiche]

Wall of text.

I do not agree with the present train, else I would not have called for an extension, and I am quite confused why people would then undermine it and attempt to push the lynch through before I could post what I wanted to before requesting extension.

I don't think lynching Snowfire is our best course of action at this point. Period.

##VOTE: SirAlex

Out of the blue indeed, but by far my favourite person for a lynch presently. I reason he is because of the events unfolded at the start of this Mafia course, namely:

- His push on Sylon train and consequent lurking afterwards does not sit well with me. In fact, I find it tunnel-visioned in only pursuing the lynch on a lurker on day one, only switching to Snowfire when Snowfire attempts to defend Sylon. (by no means a good move on Snowfire's side, and certainly something that should earn him scrutiny, but it pales in comparison to SirAlex)
- Continuous stressing at first that Snow's self-vote isn't that big a deal, and then in the vote post later raising it again but this time as something that apparently matters enough to be mentioned.
- Faulty logic demonstrated here:

- Seems dead set against lynching Sylon for some reason.  Complains case on Sylon is "just because."

"for some reason" is a silly thing to include, because Alex himself acknowledged that it is a bad train, saying only that he stays on it because it would feel weird taking a vote off of someone who hasn't talked. So the only thing Alex has demonstrated charging Sylon with seems to be inactivity, which a player cannot defend against reasonably.
Ergo, there isn't any good reason to be in favour of lynching Sylon, and attacking someone for acknowledging that seems odd at best and scummy at worst.
- False advertising of the Extension to be "useless" and that it will lead to "procrastination" and "waiting around". I cannot see town wanting to stifle discussion and cut matters short to get a lynch immediately.

The Sylon train was a deathtrap from the beginning. All those votes piled on would force Sylon to do something, like suddenly grasp out to people and point out their scumminess, or something similar. He has had no charge to defend himself on[/u], and people still insisted on him having "sensible things to say" (Xanth) or just generally wanting him to take action.

This is all a terrible, terrible sort of thing and does not at all help Day 1 lynches. In fact, it undermines them, and let me repeat again from earlier that discussion was already had outside of the Sylon train, so that its purpose from the start was sketchy at best.

No, I do not believe that lynching Snowfire is the best course of action presently, for all that his contradictory and confusing nature does not sit well with me. I am far more interested in lynching Alex for his actions.



Kilga stuff in the next post.

[Kilgamayan]

Quick, someone ninja Bard with a hammer as revenge for his five-minutes-to-go-we-only-stayed-up-this-late-to-watch-the-day-end extension vote.

Ninja'd myself! Blast.

[Bardiche]

Is that sense of humour or breach of civility, Kilgamayan?

- Bardiche: Asks Xanth about his switch, citing that nothing had changed with Meeple since Xanth's last post. I thought Xanth made it pretty obvious why the switch was made when he mentioned that the Snow case wasn't going anywhere, and I question why that didn't register in Bard's mind.

It did register to my mind, but the point of my query was to see whether he had had any other reasons. As it stands he says he felt more comfortable pursueing Meeple because someone else did, and so I learned new information.

I'll expand that when I return.

The expansion to that thought is that I find Xanth's reasoning to be too insufficient. His reasons for voting Meeple instead of Snowfire based themselves off of "Well this is going nowhere" and "Meeple has a sensationalistic tone in his post". I want to know what a "sensationalistic" tone would have to be, and as town one should always, always, always try to get people enthusiastic for their case.

Ultimately everyone turned to a Snowfire case instead, which he happily jumped back on with nothing new to add. What is more interesting is that he promises to follow up this post, and later expresses that he is not happy about having an extension to explain those promised thoughts, which I had hoped to extract from him and scrutinize him for.

I at first had wanted to use the extension to vote for Xanth for not pursuing his case with any vigour and happily jumping on the next convenient thing which I was already on (me-tooism), as well as his response to me where he cleanly states that he is not at all interested in pursuing who he thinks is scum but on the next eligible target which people do seem to want to pursue.

Let me make this clear. Town are not accessories to other townies winning the game, townies are all individuals who should use the power of rhetoric and logic to sway people to their side of the argument and, by process of elimination, remove all malignant/non-town individuals from the game. There is absolutely no reason to drop any case on someone you feel is suspicious if you are town.

As you can see in my previous post I have more interest in Alex presently, with Xanth following a good second, and Snowfire scoring only third to those. I prefer my primary target.

[Kilgamayan]

I thought the second line gave away that my post was made in jest.

If it didn't, then hopefully the first line of this one did. :V

[Bardiche]

I thought the second line gave away that my post was made in jest.

If it didn't, then hopefully the first line of this one did. :V

You appeared rather upset over the extension earlier as you were using explicitives, so I wasn't sure how to treat it.

[Xanth]

Ryogo: I like what I see, but dislike what I don't. Early absence is sure, whatever, but the lack of input later is less so. Less concerned assuming some extra input in the extension time, which he did back with this in mind.

Meeple: I'm seeing a lot of text with no direct relevance or hammering a minor point/query to death. As far as I can see the only useful action taken before 3 hours before the deadline (as in before this post) was to call me out on apparent OMGUS and me-too-ism (which I do mean positively and not sarcastically). Gets a little more involved at that point... but I again note a lack of weight being applied on to anyone at all, slowly gravitating towards Snow. Still my second preference.

Snow: .
.
.
.

Okay, so I'm being distracted on all sides, we're suddenly facing hammer and I still haven't got to talking about the guy that my vote is down on (and intend to keep it on). I need to get lunch and make another phone call, but I'll try and be quicker otherwise.

Bard ninja: okay, sure, add replying to that to my 'to do' list. I thought the term was clear enough, but I'll explain it for you now that you've raised issue to it quite so long after teasing at it.

[Kilgamayan]

Bard: That was then, this is now. I'm still not entirely happy with it, but I'm not going to let that get in the way of proper play.

[Nietz]

Nietz points the finger at me for “trying to keep a low profile,” which: I am? Eh. I’m doing what I can, but even when I’m around for long chunks of time it’s pretty hard for me to contribute as much in-the-moment as those bat-like (or Australian) types who are really in the fray during the busy hours.

That was my impression, yes. But reading the thread again there's more people who could fit that. After Sylon's modkill, I'm not really sure who could be the worst case of sneaky scum, though a OK modkill for inactivity starts to seem appropriate.
Things as they stand now, I don't really favor a SnowFire lynch because I really believe his behavior necessarily amounts to scumminess, though I think the sheer WTF-ness of his arguments hasn't been helpful at all.

Ninja by Bard (and others): I do believe that there were reasons for the votes on Sylon, mainly that he wasn't actually inactive, but rather actively lurking and avoiding commenting on his case. Though apparently his health issues were actually serious enough.

[Nietz]

EBWOP: "because I don't really believe his behavior necessarily amounts to scumminess" I mean.

[Kilgamayan]

After Sylon's modkill, I'm not really sure who could be the worst case of sneaky scum, though a OK modkill for inactivity starts to seem appropriate.

I nominate Ryogo and Yoshi for this. Yoshi hasn't posted in ~20 hours and Ryogo was around last night but said nothing.

Proper response to Bard forthcoming.

[Kilgamayan]

The expansion to that thought is that I find Xanth's reasoning to be too insufficient. His reasons for voting Meeple instead of Snowfire based themselves off of "Well this is going nowhere" and "Meeple has a sensationalistic tone in his post". I want to know what a "sensationalistic" tone would have to be, and as town one should always, always, always try to get people enthusiastic for their case.

Mmm, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't really have a problem with people switching votes from a less likely lynch to a more likely lynch when they believe (and directly state that they believe, including reasons why) in both cases.

Looking back at the Meeple post Xanth called into question for being "sensationalist", I believe he is referring to the third paragraph, where Meeple uses CAPITAL LETTERS and even an exclamation point! to perhaps present his case against Xanth as more than what it actually is. Compare Meeple's antiXanth presentation to, say, mine (here and here, and note the large difference in tone.

Could Xanth have pointed this out directly? Sure. I woudln't hold it against him for not doing so, though, given Meeple's post was not that far prior to Xanth's response.

Ultimately everyone turned to a Snowfire case instead, which he happily jumped back on with nothing new to add.

I don't like how you're trying to paint Xanth as the bad guy for choosing NotMe over Me in that scenario.

What is more interesting is that he promises to follow up this post, and later expresses that he is not happy about having an extension to explain those promised thoughts, which I had hoped to extract from him and scrutinize him for.

I imagine he wasn't happy for the same reason all of Alex, Excal and myself were not happy - having to deal with shifting-deadline shenanigans in relation to sleep time - rather than being unhappy for having to explain himself.

[Strago]

Nietz: Fair enough point. I obviously shouldn't get huffy when people call me out for not being around when day-to-day life has legitimately caused me not to be around.

Hmm. Honest immediate reaction to Bard's post v. Alex? It looks a lot like what I've seen scum pull (and have pulled myself, as scum!) at the end of many Days (specifically Day 1s) like this: form what is essentially a new case very shortly before the Day's end in order to look productive without having to hitch your cart to any lynching wagon. This generally leads to one having a cleaner slate on the following day, in my experience. Yeah, this sort of 11th-hour case always pings my radar, particularly because on Day 1 there's sort of an unspoken attitude of "well we won't have any real info until tomorrow anyway so today is fake."

THE WEIRD THING IS:

I tend to agree with the bulk of his points against Alex! Since the early hopping on Sylon, Alex has looked a bit weird to me, and Bardiche's points taken on their own merit -- without taking into account his post's positioning within the landscape of the day -- really resonate with me. So I'm not sure how to reconcile that.

... except for when I remember that there are two scum teams. Which... ah. Huh. Don't really know what to do with that.

Ultimately everyone turned to a Snowfire case instead, which he happily jumped back on with nothing new to add.

I don't like how you're trying to paint Xanth as the bad guy for choosing NotMe over Me in that scenario.

Not a bad point. You do seem to contradict yourself, Bardiche, given your comment here:

Let me make this clear. Town are not accessories to other townies winning the game, townies are all individuals who should use the power of rhetoric and logic to sway people to their side of the argument and, by process of elimination, remove all malignant/non-town individuals from the game. There is absolutely no reason to drop any case on someone you feel is suspicious if you are town.

Because by the same token there's also no reason to lay down your life if there's another option.