Author Topic: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura  (Read 6307 times)

Taishyr

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2009, 08:45:47 PM »
I'll look into it later. I don't think Pierce is, offhand (think it just removed non-reflect walls) but.

Talaysen

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2009, 09:17:59 PM »
Err, I meant PIERCE there, not Freikugal.

And actually, thinking on it, I believe Freikugal bypasses Repel Physical.  It's not physical, it's almighty, and I recall abusing that at one point.  Doesn't matter if it hits Tetrakarn or not against Jenna, because Jenna is not casting Tetrakarn, she has Repel Physical.

And I don't think either Pierce or Freikugal are ITD anyway.

Taishyr

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2009, 11:16:45 PM »
Tal: Mmm, point. Alright, then.

Though would you consider Jenna reducing Almighty magic to near-zero damage overruled by Freikugel+Pierce (pierce allowing Demifiend to work around Lucifer's similar trait)? Or would it just be sheer defense and thus it not being ITD makes it slam into a wall there?

Talaysen

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2009, 12:36:57 AM »
Though would you consider Jenna reducing Almighty magic to near-zero damage overruled by Freikugel+Pierce (pierce allowing Demifiend to work around Lucifer's similar trait)? Or would it just be sheer defense and thus it not being ITD makes it slam into a wall there?

It's definitely not defense because other physical attacks do full damage.  It's quite clearly a resistance and thus owned by Pierce.

Monkeyfinger

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2009, 01:57:35 AM »
It's not even like the demifiend has any counter to Jenna1 atomizing him with Bhairava, so it doesn't even matter. The form pierce could matter against would never see battle.

Taishyr

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2009, 02:08:27 AM »
...this actually raises a point I should have tested - can Bhairava miss. Mrf. Then again with how little she uses it I feel no guilt.

Monkeyfinger

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2009, 03:11:17 AM »
For the hell of it, I went through our godlike champs and mulled over how DF does against each of them..

Ones who beat him, with or without Masakados
Zophar (Fate storm overkills)
Lady (Calamity gaze + malice dirge D-combo overkills)
Jenna (Bhairava... kills. She has debilitate and all the kajas, so she can keep up with DF in a stat modifying war.)
Sephiroth (faster, shadow flare is a non-elemental 2HKO even through HP+60%)
Kuja (faster, flare star is a non-elemental 2HKO even through HP+60% thanks to how levels work in SMT:N. Death by forcibly being overleveled... shitty way to go.)
Albedo (faster, gravity gaze is a non-elemental 2HKO even through HP+60%, and I don't think gravity attacks fell under Expel until DDS - if I'm wrong then this match depends on what exactly you define expel as being. If holy Albedo still wins, if gravity/ID Albedo is screwed)
Yuna (go first, stall for time using protect, shell, autolife and healing until her OD gauge fills, then grand summon Anima who nukes the fuck out of DF with oblivion)
Emelious (DF's entire damage arsenal is provably evadable, including all the magic, so Shadow Wave spamming makes Emelious completely invulnerable in that fight. It takes Emelious hundreds of turns to kill since that move does pathetic damage and DF has all that HP and healing, but Emelious has a literal eternity to grind DF out.)
Heat (With tentacles; like Emelious he stalls forever and slowly whittles DF down)

9

Ones who he beats, with or without Masakados
Myria (strong physical + HP boosts reduces myria1 to a 4HKO out of the gate, rakukajas, makandas and tarundas interspersed with periodic healing reduce her to tinks, then poke her to death. For myria3, null death (which conveniently gets her paralysis too) instead of strong physical, since her relatively crappy damage doesn't require a resistor)
Fou-Lu (DF is a fair amount faster and isn't OHKOed and eventually stops being 2HKOed once he inflicts enough damage. Pierce ensures that he he can go through Fou's HP quick enough)
Ryu4 (nothing in his movepool can 2HKO an HP-maxed DF, and DF's healing lasts longer than Ryu's AP. Dekunda stops any Punk shenanigans)
Yuri (yuri1 needs to spam FtC to 2HKO, and his resources run out before a double. Yuri2 and DF could heal themselves and mana drain each other until the universe dies of heat death... except DF's going to eventually crit with one of his attacks and once that happens, gg)
Melfice (block silence, don't get 2HKOed. Melfice's doubles force a lot of healing at first but once DF can knock him down to a 4HKO with debuffs it's much smoother sailing.)
Orlandu (strong phys buys him 3 turns, focus friekugal for the gory kill)
Ash (strong phys (probably through Kamudo, I don't think Ash had status to exploit that), hurr around with magic until he crits. Toss in a few makakajas beforehand if needed)
Luca (void fire, bust Luca's attack so Luca's slashes don't 2 round, play the attrition game)
Empyrea (more strong physical fun)
Menardi (loooool)

9 (unless you count Menardi)

Ones where it matters whether or not you allow Masakados
Kefka (heal lock with fallen one, but Kefka can't actually do any damage through masakados until half his HP's gone, so DF has unlimted time to stack up stat modifiers and unleash one big attack. Without masakados he has enough variety to finish after a F1 no matter what magatama DF uses)
Ghaleon (DF needs to both prevent being solidly 2HKOed and prevent ID, and he can only do both with masakados since Ghaleon can do 120% PCHP with a physical + NE magic combo)
Piastol (2HKO with tempest dance or ID with eternum, only masakados can stop both)
Jade (2HKO with BoltX or ID with Rub, only masakados can stop both)
Ryu3 (he has a bunch of status and ID sprinkled throughout his list of transformations, something will work unless Masakados. With masakados, Ryu can still 2HKO with a high powered breath, but IIRC his dragons don't boost speed, so none of the dragons that can 2HKO will doubleturn before running out of AP)
Profound darkness (no masakados = 2HKO with one of the countless near OHKO moves in PD's arsenal. DF doubleturns sometimes but rarely, and given PD's HP he will run out of resources. With Masakados it depends on what you classify megid as (it is holy damage in game). Lump it under expel and PD doesn't do any damage, let it go through and PD wins as described above)

6

No idea due to no voting rights
Cloud of darkness

Eh, doesn't look so bluelike to me without masakados. That's 15 losses, and that's only champs.

Also if you lock his skillsets some of his wins would fall apart during a season due to not having the right moves

EDIT: Forgot that he can null physicals and elements with passive skills. That knocks out Kefka, Ghaleon, Piastol and Jade for sure, though he still needs masakados for PD and Ryu3 (their variety is just too great to cover with passive void skills alone).
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 03:42:36 AM by Monkeyfinger »

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2009, 03:48:01 AM »
Tested Pierce against an enemy without an physical resistance. Freikugal did the same damage against Kali (Vit:23) WITH Pierce as it did without. Not ITD, sadly.


Also, he wins some of those "losing" matches that MF listed due to Endure, I believe. This allows to survive most of the killing blows long enough for him to full-heal or just finish off his opponent. Multi-hitting killing blows still finish him... so Lady still wins I think.

One good point that was brought up is that all of Demifiend's attacks are evadable, so someone who goes first and nerfs his accuracy/buffs their evade (Rika?) might stand a good chance against him, oddly enough (might be a good argument for keeping Fog Breath). Hmm... Endure keeps the speedy IDers in check for the most part. I don't think Tir survives Freikugal long enough for a second shot of ID (Assuming you see non-elemental ID as hitting through SMTN Void Death/Expel).

-Djinn

Monkeyfinger

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2009, 03:52:46 AM »
Only person in the top list I could see frail enough to get screwed by Endure is Albedo. DF needs to 2HKO that group for Endure to turn the tide and that's probably not happening with any of those other people.

Withuot a 2HKO you have something like:

Kuja: Flare star
DF: Attack
Kuja: Flarestar (DF endures with 1 HP)
DF: Attack
Kuja: Kill

Or

DF: Heal
Kuja: Flare star
And DF's within range of death again with nothing to bail him out.

Ryu3 and PD... haha. Good luck finding anything that 2HKOs them (once Ryu3 starts morphing anyway)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 03:55:43 AM by Monkeyfinger »

Taishyr

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2009, 03:56:59 AM »
Mmm. Two Freikugel's pretty brutal offense, though... For me he manages to wipe a few more people on that list, but as usual Tai haet boss HP clause goes here.

Also, doesn't Zophar's Fate Storm have a HP trigger, or was that random stat topic BS?

Monkeyfinger

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2009, 04:00:19 AM »
Zophar has a speedy high 2HKOing non-elemental spell anyway, so it's probably irrelevant.

Yoshiken

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2009, 05:51:53 PM »
On the point of gravity/Expel, I'm fairly sure every move in Nocturne that does gravity-style damage is Expel-based. Probably personal opinion, but I'd be strongly inclined to say that Expel covers gravity attacks.

And, as for Yuna... Would Freikugel be affected by either Protect or Shell? As far as I know, it's not affected by either Tetrakarn or Makarakarn, so it makes sense that it wouldn't be halved by Protect or Shell either. With that in mind, he stands a chance, as long as you don't hold MegaTen's turn system against him (meaning he'd never get around Auto-Life...)

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Re: SMT:N Demifiend/Hitoshura
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2009, 10:00:16 AM »
On Melfice vs. Demi-Fiend... could Melfice evade get around Demi-Fiend's evadable Freikugal? Might turn things in Melfice's favor to get a few extra turns there, especially with Demi-Fiend's limited resources if DF is healing/debuffing a lot...