Author Topic: Season 51, Week 2 - Quina discovers fear, science and loathing in the kitchen.  (Read 8053 times)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Godlike

Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3)
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK)
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6)
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3)

Heavy

Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4)
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7)
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT)
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK)

Middle

Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea)
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT)
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7)
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4)

Light

Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5)
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4)
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dhyerwolf

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Godlike

Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3)
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK)
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6)- WA 3 Silence gets everything, and Edgar can't block Silence and Confuse.
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3)

Heavy

Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4)- Should have the HP to take a spell, and 2HKOs.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7)
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT)
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK)- Alhazad makes my head hurt

Middle

Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea)- Hmm, don't know. Leaning Bowman.
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT)- I guess
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7)- Gut reaction of some ability to chip, better speed, and some pdef.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4)

Light
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1)- While this is initially closer than my Lol VP Mage gut reaction would indicate, Bernadette still takes this.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5)- Logg has a solid enough 3HKO, and is certainly going before 3.4 Cyan turns.
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4)
...into the nightfall.

SnowFire

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Matches of note.

Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3) -
Okay, Lady probably wins this, but I remember the issue of how good Jess's Magic Burst was coming up in chat, and this is actually pretty close.

According to the stat topic.... Jess has 273 base MP.  But she equips a Staff when going for MB, so make that 373.  That's 746 damage.  The damage average using Gigaslash (Guv doesn't have enough skill points to get to Gigagash at lvl. 40, the stat topic's level, though this is fair enough to dispute; Dragon Soul I find extremely illegal myself, as you don't even need to get it when doing the aftergame) is 176.  That's 4.24 times average damage, or (using 40% = average damage) 1.7 PCHP in damage.

Lady's Malice Umbral has 7200 HP.  The stat topic has 250 the one-turn average, and 289 as the three-turn average...  but damage is somewhat higher in-game due to having access to Crest Magic, especially Arc Surge (1 turn for 30-36% boost in damage over 5 turns?  Yes.  And as noted before, Lady probably shouldn't get double-credit for Lost Progress).  So...  I will arbitrarily say that 360 is closer to the in-game per-person damage average (since bosses should be held against in-game PCs, not DL-legal ones.).  360*4=1440, and 7200/1440 = 5 turns of survival.  Taken literally, that's 2 PCHP, plus a final tap to Lady herself.

So...  it comes down to how harsh you are on boss HP, I suppose.  Certainly people have punished boss HP more than a naive approach like the above gives.  But Jessica does need to kill instantly - I suppose she can Kafrizzle first, then Magic Burst for around 2.2 PCHP total (Twin Dragon Lash is a bad idea, she'd lose the MP boost from the staff), but as noted, even if Jessica somehow survived Lady's first turn, she'd die from Lady's counter.

Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7)
Er...  I know that some people toss movement out entirely in the DL, but if Arnaud hypothetically fought Raquel, I think it'd be pretty clear that unless Arnaud also Shut Out Raquel, Raquel could just waltz out of a Slow Down'd hex with Move+Attack.  I certainly grant everyone in the DL a WA4 "take your entire turn" move command, at least, which generally isn't helpful unless you're considerably faster than Arnaud - otherwise he just recasts it, and eventually he doubles and Shuts Out as well.

Anyway.  Guy is from a system where everyone inherently has Move + Attack, so, uh, yeah, I can't really see just opening with Slow Down as being particularly effective here.  On the bright side for Arnaud, Shut Out itself is an instant-win when fought on a Fire Emblem battlefield - tie Guy down in a square, bombard him from afar.  When fought on a WA4 battlefield...  it depends on if you always let the opponent start in the center hex (which is fair enough, a good few bosses start there).  If Guy doesn't start in the center, Shut Out still works.  If he does...  I think Arnaud still wins.  Arnaud uses Slow Down on the center hex.  If Guy hangs out there, then I think Arnaud can beat him thanks to repeated doubled Hi-Blasts.  If Guy moves away, then Shut Out -> run run away -> uncounterable Hi-Blasts.

So yes.  Shut Out hype, since both are from systems with movement and Guy is in fact noticeably hurt by the fact he can't go range 2 unlike say Lyn.

Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
The polar reverse of Jessica / Lady.  I doubt that even a Mystic Cross PWS can kill Bern, so Lorenta's definitely going with the turtling strategy.  Okay, Lorenta just hangs out at first doing nothing to save CT.  Eventually Bern will force her to use Heal, due to the risk of a Breath of Ice KO or to Silent Lake->Knives.  After that, assuming Lorenta has no luck getting purple gems from her bird, she has 4 turns of recharge before she can Heal again.  Right before she can Heal, Bern can Silent Lake, then switch to knives.  As a note, if I understand S5 mechanics right, Bernadettes deserves no respect for being able to chain multiple Silent Lakes - she's below average speed, so Lorenta will have a chance to Heal before Bern can recast Silent Lake.  This is why S3 Chris is awesome, her Silent Lake beats out nearly everyone and thus can be chained really well.

Bern's Breath of Ice does an amazing .19 PCHP damage.  And she's got to Silent Lake a turn early, as noted before.  So... 
Turn Lorenta decides to Heal: (Heal, BoI)
T2: WR, BoI
T3: WR, BoI
T4: WR, Silent Lake
...followed by 4 turns of knives.  Of which her non-critical hit does .14 PCHP damage.  .58 + .56 = a mere 1.14 PCHP of damage after 8 turns.

Lorenta has only .82 PCHP, however, so it looks like Bern pulls this one out.  And I suppose that Heal is only 80%, meaning that even if she hadn't, Bernadette would have enough Breath of Ice charges for another go round to finish things.  Lorenta's "wait around and outheal" strategy came dangerously close to working here, though, which is scary.

Dhyerwolf

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Lorenta halves Breath of Ice (And blocks Silence 4 times to me. And I allow mages the Heavy Magic skill that gives them a chance of stunning! Doesn't matter!), so Bernadette is using her physical.
...into the nightfall.

SnowFire

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Mmm.  Nothing like obscure elemental blocking.  If the Ice halving is allowwed...   and also don't let Silent Lake work due to the Silence blocking...  then this fight takes foreeeeeeeeeeever due to Lorenta not really being able to spend her AP on anything but Heal and Wait Reaction's mighty damage, plus Bern having healing.  Without criticals, Bern can crank out 4*.14 = .64 PCHP damage, which isn't keeping up with Lorenta's Heals...  but I suppose that eventually she'll get a two-crit chain in her 4 attacks, and that'll do it. 

(EDIT: I can't multiply, good catch Yoshiken.  .14*4 = .56, though .57 is probably closer since .14 is rounding down a bit.  2 crits will still increase .57->.83 damage, which is exactly a kill on the .82 HP Lorenta, though.)

For fun, ground out the math on this.  With a 10% chance of a critical happening, that'll be
(1/10)^2*(9/10)^2 = 81/10000
(4 choose 2) = 6 since when the 2 criticals occur are irrelevant
.0081 * 6 =
4.862%
chance of the double-critical in one of these attack chains.  Since each chain is 5 turns, that means that it's not until turn 110 or so that Bernadette wins on average.  Bern might have had to spend a turn or two full-healing off the Bird due to the threat of Lorenta switching to Mystic Cross, so call it turn 112.

...epic.  So yeah, looks like Bern still grinds this one out even without Silent Lake or Breath of Ice on the terrible might of her knives backed by healing.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 06:18:02 PM by SnowFire »

Dhyerwolf

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64% damage is probably keeping up with Lorenta's Heal since I'm assuming VP mages have below average defense! Hey, I'm surprised that a VP Mage even can cobble together such a good argument against a decent Light (Of course, the match also serves as a good enough reminder why Bernadette can fit in the division despite all she has going for her!).
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Godlike

Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3): Emily should 3HKO, I think. First attack knocks him into ToT. Em might 3-2, but the way I take ToT, it happens instantly, and Emily isn't instant doubling after it, so Indy gets an EQ off.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK): Quite a bit more damage.
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6): Faster. Eerie little mirror match otherwise.
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3): Yeaaah, not quite as much respect for Magic Burst as Snowfire.

Heavy

Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4): Geddoe's parrying makes things interesting. Did Alena end up with accuracy? I forget.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7): I really should remember if Arnaud's status spells hit MEvade or not. Assuming they do, Arnaud misses, Guy misses, Arnaud uses Illusion, rapes. Gets worse if things are turn 1.
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT): Quina vs. mage slayer. Worker 8 for the semis, at the very least.
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK): I dunno.

Middle

Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea): 2HKOs faster.
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT): I suppose.
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7): Right, 2HKOs and isn't 2HKOed.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4): Katt gets in a decent low 2HKO, but after one Warla/Telele her damage is hosed. After the second, yeah.

Light

Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1): Cute match.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5): They're similar in speed, so I think he has this.
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7): How not close. Oh well~
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4): Yep.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 04:26:34 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Maybe.

Clear Tranquil

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Godlike

Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6)
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3)- No

Middle

Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT) - *thinking*

Light
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5) - Arr?
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Will I get shot for moar SO3 hype? :P
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VySaika

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Probably.

>_>

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<%Laggy> we're open minded individuals here
<+RandomKesaranPasaran> are we
<%Laggy> no not really.

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Dhyerwolf

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Probably not when he's facing Rufus though!
...into the nightfall.

DjinnAndTonic

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It won't really be SO3 hype, just Rufus anti-hype... >.>;;

On Malik vs. Edgar... I'm assuming Edgar gets through Malik's perfect evade with his perfect accuracy tools like Drill and Chain Saw?

In that case, Edgar just Chain Saws him for a 2HKO. Malik can't out-damage that in time. Edgar can block Confusion.

As for Malik's Misery status... Misery hits WA3 Force skills, but I don't think I'd consider FF6 Tools the same as Force skills. Force skills require FP to use, where as Tools are more like physical weaponry to me.

Interesting match, though.

The Bern/Lorenta match explanation was a cool read, too. Thanks, SnowFire and Dhyer. Really quite shocking to see a VP Mage match able to create something thought-provoking... >.>;;

superaielman

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Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3)- Em's damage type doesn't do well against time of truth.
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6)
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3)

Heavy

Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4)- Not remotely close. Geddoe 2HKOs easily and Alena can't do anything to stop him. HoR+soaring bolt kill.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7)[/b]- Mmm, even if I see Illusion as blockable, no.
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT)- Get out of heavy Quina.

Middle

Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea)- Seriously doubt Midboss can 2HKO Bowman through the Moon Fist's 25% HP boost.
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT)
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7)- Fighter versus Domingo. Extremely straight forward.  Domingo's got defense and HP in both forms, his damage is never worse than a solid 3HKO.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4)

Light

Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5)-  Kneejerk.
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4)
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Monkeyfinger

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Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK): Faster and has a stronger version of Slow. Alhazad's damage isn't good enough to kill Pamela for using the slow. After that it's a straightforward drain win.

That's assuming WA1o, which I vote on. For the ACF form I'd first need to know if they're all stat down bait like all the WA1o bosses are.

I don't feel the need to comment on the rest of these.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 01:32:32 PM by Monkeyfinger »

Yoshiken

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Quick point, on Snowfire's calculations... You've got 4*14 as 64, when it's 56.
Haven't played either game, so not certain, but I doubt that affects things, going by the calculations. Thought it best to point that out just in case. ;o

OblivionKnight

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Godlike

Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3) - Indalecio.  Get the hell out of Godlike, Emily.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK) - Gilgamesh.  MF6 form CRUSHES with Auto-reflect.  Too bad she's all magic.
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) - Malik.  Get the hell out of Godlike, Edgar.
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3) - Lady.  Get down to Heavy, Jess.

Heavy

Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4) - Alena.  Pretty sure agility had something to do with accuracy in all DQ games.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7) - Arnaud.  Shut Out, or just Illusion.  Anything works.  Guy won't kill him before he rapes him.
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT) - Quina.  Was Frog Drop actually magical, or just ITD based on the number of frogs collected?  Either way, Mighty Guard and healing work.  Once weakened, it can just eat Worker.
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK) - Alhazad.  ;_;  Poor Pamela being all magical.

Middle

Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea) - Bowman.  Healing!
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT) - Seifer.  Boss form.  Get up to Heavy.
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7) - Cid.  Think the limit gets off and kills.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4) - Kyra.  Katt sucks.

Light

Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1) - Lorenta.  Infinite healing fun.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5) - Cyan.  Yay no charge time conservation of the environment.
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Rufus.  Boss vs. non-boss.  Roger sucks!
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4) - Porom, I guess.  Though, if she can beat a God, she needs to be in Godlike.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

superaielman

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Cid's only scary limits are his L3/4ers. Domingo can blast past though regardless of scaling.


Quote
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT) - Quina.  Was Frog Drop actually magical, or just ITD based on the number of frogs collected?  Either way, Mighty Guard and healing work.  Once weakened, it can just eat Worker.

Mighty Guard lasts less than a round and his only healing is White Wind.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

OblivionKnight

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Eh, limit scaling, I suppose.  Should let Cid just get it off. 

Mighty Guard only 1 action?  How odd.  Either way, White Wind still has healing.  And was Frog Drop magical or physical or nothing ITD?  Not like it makes a huge difference, I guess...Worker 8's defense reduction only helps a bit with the 0 defense thing.  Eh, oh well.  Eat hype?
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

superaielman

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Depends on how you're limit scaling. SF1o Domingo's got a good 2HKO, remake one just barely misses a 2HKO. Random growth plus nerfed bolt/fire magic helps there.  Cid's L3s take a hell of a lot to trigger as well. 150% damage taken for them, IIRC.

Compress is a functional heal lock there, with the ID attached. Frog Drop is some kind of ITD I think. It's not good damage either way with the way FF9 works.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

OblivionKnight

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Bleh, right, Frog Drop maxed at 5000, not 10000.  I think?  Can't tell from Dhyer's notes, it's not clearly delineated.

[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

superaielman

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Frog Drop can max, just not in the DL without some serious work. Other things (Thievery, Dragon's Crest) would also be maxed if Frog Drop was, so it'd not be much of a net gain for Quina.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Yoshiken

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Hrm... I really don't see Mighty Guard only being one round. I mean, it's basically just Shell and Protect, and those last for longer than one round, so Mighty Guard does too. Not sure on specifics, but I know Mighty Guard lasted at least 2-3 turns per character.

Also, I'm looking at one evil strategy for Quina that I -think- is physical-based, although would need confirmation of that. Limit Glove abuse? If Quina's faster than W8, he can spam Auto-Life until he revives on 1, then Limit Glove for ridiculous damage.

Finally, Vanish-abuse?

Not sure how much of that works against W8, but I'm just presenting a few things for Quina that people generally seem to ignore~


*goes to find out who's faster between W8 and Quina*


Edit: Okay, Quina is at 84% of average speed. Worker 8's looking at about 82.8% of average. If Limit Glove's physical, Quina's able to get one shot of it in, and I'm thinking that could save it for him.
(Random point, the reason I always say "him" for Quina is because Quan says in-game: "S/he is still young, so please look after him." (Or something along those lines, anyways.))

Edit again: Turns out I was overselling W8's speed - he's at 82.8% if you exclude equips, and only about 70% including them. So yeah, Quina gets a turn after Auto-Life.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 04:23:41 PM by Yoshiken »

hinode

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SF1o Domingo does 94.6% damage with Freeze 4 according to the enemy def=30 average, and he has lower levels of Freeze. Unless you're giving Cid an L3 limit at 5% damage taken or so I don't see how he's winning here against that form of Domingo.

OblivionKnight

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Oh, I assume all that stuff gets maxed always.  I was assuming it was average damage or so at baseline due to that, but seeing it only noted at 4950 (when Dhyer hadn't noted Dragon Crest or Thievery, which I know max) made me question whether it did or not.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Dark Holy Elf

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I see every single Blue spell tinking off Quina myself. If you see Frog Drop working that's another matter. It is certainly easier to max than Thievery, for what it's worth. Probably not Dragon Crest, though.

Mighty Guard lasts a couple rounds, but it doesn't matter since Worker's damage goes through it. Vanish is a better argument, but I think I see Worker's damage going through that, too.

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Seriously doubt Midboss can 2HKO Bowman through the Moon Fist's 25% HP boost.

For what it's worth, he does according to the stat topic numbers on Midboss. You're welcome to take him against higher levels, but just sayin'.

EDIT: Do remember that Bowman's HP boost isn't 25% due to hitting the HP cap. It ends up as 116%, assuming you don't see Ashton using Melufa. (If you do, the HP average is higher, but damage average is lower and Ashton probably wants Doubledemon more often.)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 04:32:13 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

superaielman

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Mmm, maybe. Midboss didn't have a strong 2HKO at all based on my memory, and he'd need to go first.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...