Season 51, Week 2 - Quina discovers fear, science and loathing in the kitchen.

[OblivionKnight]

Incidentally, if someone ignores damage caps unless they are specifically set in a game (i.e., the person is me), how much does Limit Glove do at 1 HP?  Is it always set at 9999?  I barely remember FF9.

Same goes for Bowman with the HP going over the cap thing - which helps.

[superaielman]

I don't think SO2 PC's could go over 9999 HP. Enemy damage could go over it though. SO2's HP cap was a little odd.

Edit: Elfboy, hop on AIM?

[Yoshiken]

I don't know if Limit Glove always did 9999, but I know it can by the time you're at Gizamaluke's Grotto, so I'd guess it would always be 9999 by end-game.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Always 9999 at 1 HP. Useful on the LLG. Not sure why it's coming up here, W8 doesn't have HP-1 or anything.

[OblivionKnight]

The reason I let people do that is because the thing that ties damages and HP and the like to those caps are levels, which can be so variable anyway, that it feels odd to cancel someone's potential advantage because a stat topic takes levels high enough it lessens that advantage.  This doesn't count for, say, FFX, where you need special skills to do it, so it's addressed in-game!  

I really should get back to work, but since I'll be here for about 11 more hours...;_;

[Yoshiken]

Always 9999 at 1 HP. Useful on the LLG. Not sure why it's coming up here, W8 doesn't have HP-1 or anything.

No, but Auto-Life has a 1/9 chance of putting Quina back on 1 HP and I think he'll have enough shots to be able to use Limit Glove, seeing as he's faster. The only question is how much it deals to W8 with his defences, if anything at all.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Ooh right, Auto-Life works when you're faster, I'm too used to that not being the case.

[Meeplelard]

Godlike

Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3): Yeah, think Indy just outmatches Emily here.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK): Gilgamesh is all about tricks, Isolde is all about slugging.  Guess what's more useful for Boss vs. Boss <_<
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6): Unsure.
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3): Don't see Jessica getting the damage she needs.

Heavy

Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4): Parry and good durability gets him the turns he needs to finish Alena off.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7): Kneejerk.
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT): Blue Magic < Innocent.
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK): Unsure.

Middle

Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea): Think he takes this in a slugfest.
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT): Ahaha to Slash avoiding a limit.
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7): Wanna say Cid wins this slugfest.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4): Kyra is anti physical, so yeah.

Light

Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1): Pretty sure she's good enough to beat a VP Mage.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5): Don't think I see Logg killing in time.
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7): Isn't Rufus.
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4): Porom casts Mini, laughs from there.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Godlike

Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3) - Yeah, Emily would need to 2HKO. I don't mock Indy -that- much.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK) - Booms.
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) - Yeah, faster.
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3) - Magic Burst isn't even that strong a OHKO. If it went past the 1.5x overkill mark, maybe I'd consider this fight. *Shrug.*

Heavy

Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4) - Hmmmm.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7) - Arnaud's evade is just too sick. At worst, he gets two turns to apply Illusion and rape ensues.
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT) - Piñatas.
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK) - Honestly, in practice this ends out very similar to Alhazad vs. Vivi. Slow status =/= speed stat busting to me, and I don't allow Aroma Materials, so Pamela's own status is a no go while Alhazad's in full busting gear here. Not to mention Alhazad 2HKOs her as is (I believe his damage at least scrapes a 2HKO to average mdur, and Pamela gets almost 2HKOed by -average-), and may actually be faster in his first turn, which makes the fight sort of a no-brainer. Slow Down => parasitic healing lock (which, by the way, is hurt by his MDef. Pamela's healing may not be affected by magic resistance, but it does get affected by magic defense) => double => the end. I kneejerk No Bullying! strategies as too risky here, since Pamela just won't get a turn at full HP to manipulate her life level.

Middle

Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT) - Failure.
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7) - Chip-2HKOs.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4) - Walls.

Light

Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1) - lol vp mage.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5) - ... going for the one that isn't a completely awful Light.
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Rufus.
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4) - Badrach.

[Talaysen]

For fun, ground out the math on this.  With a 10% chance of a critical happening, that'll be
(1/10)^2*(9/10)^2 = 81/10000
(4 choose 2) = 6 since when the 2 criticals occur are irrelevant
.0081 * 6 =
4.862%
chance of the double-critical in one of these attack chains.  Since each chain is 5 turns, that means that it's not until turn 110 or so that Bernadette wins on average.  Bern might have had to spend a turn or two full-healing off the Bird due to the threat of Lorenta switching to Mystic Cross, so call it turn 112.

Minor nitpick, but the math here is slightly off.  You forgot to account for times she gets 3 or 4 criticals in there, which are also wins.  It won't add much, but still.

1-(9/10)^4-4*(9/10)^3*(1/10) = 5.23% if I did that right.

Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7): I really should remember if Arnaud's status spells hit MEvade or not. Assuming they do, Arnaud misses, Guy misses, Arnaud uses Illusion, rapes. Gets worse if things are turn 1.

If you mean Magic Blocker, they don't.

[Dhyerwolf]

Mighty Guard lasts 2 turns. The reason its so bad is that Quina should essentially take the same damage in those two that she would over one normal one, gets the same number of attack turns...and wastes a whopping 25% of her MP to do it. Only helps against Worker's physical.

Vanish has a shorter duration, is far less evil on her MP, but needs you to see Work as non-typed.

OK, if you give Limit Glove more damage credit because you can end the game at a lower level...you conversely have to take everything else as worse. Quina's damage, Quina's status rates, Quina's status duration...Things she can actually win with.

Granted, this all only really matters if you see Blue Magic working on Worker.

[OblivionKnight]

I didn't say I gave limit glove credit for being lower endgame level.  That's only speaking into limits in general (so, ex., Terra's Ultima, Bowman's HP) - I don't know if it breaks damage limits, so if it's set just to 9999 at 1 HP...then it's no better.  I'm not talking about giving a specific skill more credit - I'm speaking in generalities.  Not sure how that got confused, but maybe I should learn to speak human at some point.

And just because the skillset says blue MAGIC doesn't mean it has no physicals skills.  FF5 blue magic had Goblin Punch (well, I think that was physical...no matter, it's more like enemy skills than simply enemy magic...oh, yeah, what about Blue13?  Similar example of blue magic, but with physical skills).

[Yakumo]

Yeah, saying nothing from the skillset hits only because the title says magic is stupid, blue magic in FF games has physical skills too.  Now, if you've tested it and it's all magical that's one thing, but if your entire argument about it hitting or not rests on the name of the skillset I have no respect for it. <_<

[Dark Holy Elf]

blue magic in FF games has physical skills too.

It does? Besides, like, Goblin Punch and its ilk? It's very obviously a magic skillset (vulnerable to Silence, etc.) and saying every skill in it is magical without evidence to the contrary seems completely reasonable.

[Bardiche]

Godlike

Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK) - Just wait a week and I can vote on this. Hopefully!!

Heavy

Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT)
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK) - Should probably wait until I get to end game for this...

Middle

Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea)
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT) - Get the hell out Seifer. ;_;

Light

Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1) - Slugfest of the ultimate.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5)
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4) - Unimpressive VP generic.

[OblivionKnight]

blue magic in FF games has physical skills too.

It does? Besides, like, Goblin Punch and its ilk? It's very obviously a magic skillset (vulnerable to Silence, etc.) and saying every skill in it is magical without evidence to the contrary seems completely reasonable.

Moreso that saying just because a skillset is called a certain thing shouldn't instantly mean that it be assumed that that name is completely 100% correct and dictates the entire resistance setting for the attacks of that skillset.  I mean, documentation is not perfect, and blue magic skillsets do have physical skills, as you noted, so despite it being magic, it still can hit physical defense.  I mean, the entirety of Lunar 2's skillsets are called magic, but Hiro's Triple Sword hits physical defense, as far as I know.

Granted, this is probably more of a terminology argument than anything, but...30 minutes until work is over!

[SnowFire]

Talaysen: Yeah, realized that as I was out walking around today, actually.  The figures I gave were for exactly 2 crits, when Bern just wants 2 crits or better.

Yoshiken: Thanks for the catch, I fail at multiplication apparently.  It doesn't actually make much difference, though...  2 crits are still (barely) lethal.  The only thing is that it takes away one route Bern had to victory, that of wearing down Lorenta's Heals...  under the incorrect figure, she could pull something like getting a single critical in three chains in a row, breaking a bit more past Lorenta's 80% Heal every time.  That doesn't really work anymore, but double crits still do the trick.

Dark Holy Elf, Jo'ou Ranbu, others: Wild Arms 4 hex status effects are utterly undodgeable is my recollection - they hit the hex no matter what, leaving immunity the only way out.  I personally allow Guy and others to move, but if you don't allow moving, then Illusion / Slow Down / etc. functionally ignore evasion, I think.

Jo'ou Ranbu: Re: Jessica's Magic Burst and 1.5x overkill, well, as noted in my post before, MB does 1.7 PCHP against the Gigaslash average.  It does 1.53 PCHP against the Gigagash damage average (which is fair enough, take the levels at two levels higher than the stat topic and let Guv use a Skill Seed, and he can get to Gigagash).

As for the average with Dragon Soul....   the thing about DS is that then everyone should be at level 65, meaning that all the damage averages should probably be reworked.  Checking a YouTube video, it showed whip-Jessica with 500 max MP at lvl. 63 (no idea if Jessica used MP-seeds, though), implying lvl. 65 Jessica can do around 1210 damage with Magic Burst.  However, Yangus can now reasonably spam Big Banga with his better MP as well, and Angelo / Jess's damage should also be better, so the damage average is probably even higher than the 235 listed that only uses lvl. 65 Guv's Dragon Soul.  I will wildly guess that 300 should be the new damage average, which still gives Jessica 1.6 PCHP overkill.  Even if the lvl. 65 damage average is a bit higher than that, Jess should still at least be in the 1.5 PCHP overkill range?

Probably still moot, but throwing it out there.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, Dragon Soul and stuff like it is kinda obnoxious. Maybe I should just stop allowing it, or adopt that type of scaling you speak of. I dunno.

[Dhyerwolf]

Makes enough sense to discount Dragon Soul from non-Guv averages since it's an aftergame skill that isn't representative of the actual in-balance, just like Glance Reviver/Yamikei.

Some Blue Magic skillsets have some physical stuff, but stuff that's just ITD/set damage and still Blue Magic strike me as magic.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Jo'ou Ranbu: Re: Jessica's Magic Burst and 1.5x overkill, well, as noted in my post before, MB does 1.7 PCHP against the Gigaslash average.  It does 1.53 PCHP against the Gigagash damage average (which is fair enough, take the levels at two levels higher than the stat topic and let Guv use a Skill Seed, and he can get to Gigagash).

I allow Dragon Soul via Yamikei clause, just as with any other aftergame skill, and I take them into averages as a general rule, so I go by the 230~ or so figures - i.e. Magic Burst isn't that impressive in this case. Thinking on it, though, the average figures you posted are reasonable, indeed, I just don't take them as of now. Some of the skills are indeed annoying (*Punts the likes of VP2 Millidia going Godlike because she starts learning the entirety of VP2's menu skills -and- Flame Shot at aftergame levels.*), but so it goes. The aftergame skills get aftergame scaling averages idea sounds neat, buuuuuuuut it's something I wouldn't prescribe to without yanking out precise numbers for it, and eh, effort.

[James_xeno]

Eh, limit scaling, I suppose.  Should let Cid just get it off. 

Mighty Guard only 1 action?  How odd.  Either way, White Wind still has healing.  And was Frog Drop magical or physical or nothing ITD?  Not like it makes a huge difference, I guess...Worker 8's defense reduction only helps a bit with the 0 defense thing.  Eh, oh well.  Eat hype?

Frog Drop is ITD.

Mighty Guard lasts at least two turns. (not counting the turn it's used on) Quina can use it up to three times and still have enough MP left for two of the second most costly skills. (or 5 Frog Drops, 3 White Winds etc.)

Worker 8's best damage (Crush) under MG = 4HKO. Frog Drop is 4HKO alone. Plus you have to remember that Worker 8 takes 1/4 of the damage dealt out by Crush, back in damage to himself.

A few other things to note about Mighty Guard and Worker 8.

1. Worker 8's 'Work' skills ignore the enemy defensive stat in their damage calculations. No more or no less.  It doesn't effect other stat or damage modifiers like Protect.

2. Protect is an attack modifier in FFT calculations, not a defensive stat modifier! While it doesn't work in exactly the same way in FFIX, it isn't defensive stat based either.


As for speed and who gets to go first. Against the averages.. Quina's within 20% of average speed, and Worker 8's 30% off of average. So Quina gets the initiative and goes first here.



EDIT: realized this right before I was about to post.

Worker 8 can't win this!

He takes 1/4 of the damage from every Crush. Quina has enough MP to Auto-Life 17 times. He runs out of HP long before Quina runs out of MP. If W8 tries to use normal attacks, Mighty Guard cuts them down to 5HKO damage! against the 4HKO Frog Drop. and MG works against those no matter how you choose to interpret W8.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Why does Frog Drop being ITD matter when Worker 8 is immune to magic both via Innocent status -and- infinite MDef? Unless Frog Drop is physical, your idea sorta falls flat entirely.

[James_xeno]

Why does Frog Drop being ITD matter when Worker 8 is immune to magic both via Innocent status -and- infinite MDef? Unless Frog Drop is physical, your idea sorta falls flat entirely.

It's neither. Frog Drop = (level * #frogs)

So less W8 is immune to "levels" and /or frogs as well, his little trick doesn't work here.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Re Quina's Auto-Life, the problem is that Quina comes back with piddling HP, so Worker can finish him off with a physical each time. Yeah, Quina can heal, but the healing doesn't stop Crush from killing, so he has to Auto-Life again while Worker kills him for free. Granted, this lets Quina do something on the turns Worker misses, but I don't think those happen too often?

[Dhyerwolf]

Why does Frog Drop being ITD matter when Worker 8 is immune to magic both via Innocent status -and- infinite MDef? Unless Frog Drop is physical, your idea sorta falls flat entirely.

It's neither. Frog Drop = (level * #frogs)

So less W8 is immune to "levels" and /or frogs as well, his little trick doesn't work here.

By this logic, I could say that the part of VP:DS magic damage that's solely based on the attacker's level can hit him. But it's still clearly magic! Frog Drop is in a magic skillset, and also is hit by Silence. FF 9 Silence just really gets the magic skillsets, which probably feels like the strongest proof here, especially since there some pseudomagic like skills in FF 9 that don't get hit by silence.