Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

[Ranmilia]

Hal, you are somewhat right about the post you linked, but even there, as you note, I was not in favor of auto-killing the other on a town flip, and  here I recanted that post entirely when I thought about it more and realized that killing one really tells us little or nothing about the other. 

QR and Tai could easily both be lying.  My scenario for this goes along the lines of both of them being scum and Andrew being not-scum.  Scum see QR under fire and likely to be vigged.  She makes a convenient cop claim, Tai comes out of relative obscurity and makes a miller counterclaim.  Town takes the obvious route that one of them is lying and kills them - and the other one comes out vindicated, looking good and getting away with a cop or miller claim, probably for quite a while if nobody realizes or puts stock in this possibility.  Likely?  Eh.  Possible?  Definitely so.

I'm focusing on QR/Tai/Andrew and on a couple of the many lurkers, like I've said, the ones that happen to stand out to me.  I'm not sure how you're attacking this as both smokescreening/lack of focus and too much focus on certain people.  Pick one or the other! 

I disagree that Otter is high on content, indeed quite the opposite, my problem with him can be summed up as low content, for what I expected of him!  While you (Hal) are higher on general content, I find the placement of your content odd, particularly your explicit refusal to comment on the Patchcloud case day 2 disturbs me - but most especially your claim to be intentionally reading and not posting much.  That is the definition of harmful antitown lurking and you openly declaring it is something that certainly sticks in my mind, I really can't ignore it.  (And no, you declaring it doesn't make it any less antitown or you any less suspicious.  See Super in NR Mafia.)

Regarding Tai's claim, my initial reaction came from finding it unlikely that anyone would willingly make up and claim a role that the mod restricted disclosure of.  Very few scum would fakeclaim a restriction like that unless they actually had reason to believe that such roles existed, and to that point nobody else had made claims to that effect, and it is unlikely such a restriction would be given to scum since they're lying about their roles anyway.  Now, with QR herself revealing a post limitation and Andrew also confessing a nondisclosure clause, I think there's sufficient evidence that such roles are indeed in the game, which pretty much proves Tai, as the first one to claim such, wasn't making it up... and ergo, Tai is not likely to be scum?  Would the scum have known of the existence of such roles?  Huh, now you've got me actually wavering more towards QR being the better vig target. 

Edit for Tai - I don't know what your role is, my point is that I believe your *restriction*.  The obvious conjecture is that you steal spellcards/abilities from people somehow, but I'm not honestly sure if or how knowing the specifics would help.    I also don't think other cops should claim *if* they have nothing to contribute, but we are on day 3 with QR possibly on block, and role specifics are being tossed around, so I'd think it more likely than not that other cops lurking would indeed have something to contribute.  It could go either way, though, entirely depends on what the hypothetical other cops' situation(s) is/are.  What this does mean is that at the moment there is not another cop out there with enough of a contribution to make that they feel the need to speak up to save/torch QR.

One thing Hal's quite right about is that this is all just plodding around while we wait for the vigging to occur, and the cases on non-Tai/QR/Andrew people are pretty weak, including the ones I've made.  This is a large part of why I hate dragging days out, nobody wants to look like they're lurking or get OMG TUNNEL VISION'D or repeat their posts 23528765x, so when things drag, the pool of people being talked about expands... and shallows.  People turn to bad cases, the subjects go "hey that's a bad case on me!" and strike back etc.  Kill QR or Tai, I honestly can't decide which, lynch Andrew, day four please, barring something else extraordinary happening with a flip or another ninja roleclaim I can't see much else of use being hashed out today.

Sleepytime now.

[VySaika]

I'll disagree with Alex as well that Hal/Otter are being lurky. Otter...was being lurky but came back out with his press on Andy and his not-quite-truths, which was somethine nobody else had noted. So, yeah, he did provide some new content for us there. And Hal...aside from that one "mafia is not my priority" line, I cannot see how you're bulding a lurker case on him. Tonfa/Ciato/Nitori stand out as the lurkers from my POV.

But yeah, Andy does need to resolve the QR/Tai thing one way or another...and as I said before, if asked to choose between the two, I'd ##Vote:Quietrain. It's far more plausible for her to be lying then for Tai, and the "they could both be lying!?!?!" line of thinking just makes my brain hurt. Yeah, it's possible but it's bordering on a Xanatos Roulette level scheme.

[Nitori]

Re: Vigging...stuff. I'm still more on the side of vigging QR than Tai, for the same reasons I gave. It just feels like the scenarios where QR is lying are more likely to occur than Tai lying. Of course, since I last posted, sanities and post restrictions and abilities that can't be disclosed have come up. In addition to seconding Shale's reply #526, I'm also horribly inclined at the possibility that they are both telling the truth, and that QR is naive or something. It seems like...the next likeliest possibility in my mind for some reason.

That being said, it's time to substantiate the post I made earlier. ##VOTE: QR

Re: Alex. Alex is usually someone I don't really find myself seriously looking at until a few days in, to be honest. He has a distinct style of play that makes analyzing him quite difficult for a while, or at least I do. It is weird how he suddenly did an about face on Tai, and vigging...Hal? A person who has posted quite extensively on the issue at hand? While Hal's statement isn't exactly the towniest thing in the world, the fact remains that despite what he said in the sentence, he's now...not doing it. I wouldn't put him at the level of Otter at all. Granted, he does admit it is a weak case. 3/5, I guess? Really hard to call anything here right now, and resolving QR/Tai is indeed more important right now.

[VySaika]

As a general reminder, after my and Nitori's votes, QR is at 6 votes, which is -3 to hammer.

DO NOT HAMMER HER

We want Andy to vig today, and I think we can all agree that ending the day early with a hammer before he can Vig would be BAD.

[QuietRain]

You know, at this point, I am VERY glad I claimed when I did.  I do NOT want to think of the mess that would have resulted if I'd waited until closer to vig deadline to reveal my role.  Take my reveal as you will, I did it for precisely this reason.  I took Andrew at his word that he was going to be gunning for me the next day and I did not see any way for me to continue to waffle on WHY I've been acting like I have without actually telling you all the full reason. 

But, really, at this point everyone is just screaming in circles.  I think the conversation should stop here.  NO ONE is going to convince enough people at this point that it's advantageous for town not to kill me.  At this point, I don't know whether I'm this super cop some of you have considered or a naieve one.  But let's be honest.  While there is a chance that if I'm this supercop, I might find a scum to prove my powers, it's a far better chance that the scum would kill me before I even got to use it.  Two nights to survive mean the odds are NOT in my favor.

I think the argument for vig is done.  Let's concentrate on a lynch target.  Now, this is a defeatest post I fully understand, but I don't see the point in arguing any more when so many people's minds are firmly made up.  Andrew is going to vig the person with the most votes and there's no one even garnering a single vote outside of him and me (well, and Hal's 1 vote on Tonfa), and he's certainly not going to vig himself.  Let's all just hope I'm naieve and we didn't give up something that powerful.  Right now there a whole lot being said about much of nothing.  And scum can easily be feuling this fire to watch the chaos burn.  Let's not continue to kick a dead horse, shall we?  Let the poor thing be or we'll be getting a call from PETA.  I'd love to survive and try to figure out which I am, but not at the expense of giving scum more of a smokescreen to hide behind.

Now, as I'm not vigged yet, I'll continue to work my posts for our side.  When I turn up town (and I fully expect the replies to be in the format of a pick for if I'm town and a pick for if I'm scum, I know most of you are sold on the latter), I think that killing Tai would be bad.  If I'm a naieve cop, he could still be town or might be scum.  And if I'm a super cop he would definately be town.  2 out of 3 choices say he's town.  This is not a good ratio to assume he's scum and kill him.

I would vig Andrew just because the power setup he's laid out seems very third party to me.  If it's scum or town...*looks at Kilga*...I'm not going to say anything because saying bad thing about a mod while he's modding for you is BAD JUJU!!!! and we luvs our mods even when they be bastich modding *huggles for all mods*.  But balance, people, BALANCE!  Sheesh.  However, it makes sense if he's third party, though.  I can totally see that.

That's my thoughts.  I will be around intermittantly through the day here at work and will comment on other options that come up for lynch up until Andrew invokes his dayvig power.

[Shale]

Uh...hm. Speaking of vote totals, is anybody else unnerved by the fact that nobody has voted for Tai in this? After the entire frenzy of "don't lynch a claimed cop" on day 1, that the unanimous choice (since a vote for Andrew doesn't affect the vig target one whit) is to lynch a claimed cop?

[OblivionKnight]

Early rotation that last 1.5 hours.  Yeah.

...8 more pages from last I read.  Well...time to read...

Ok, that all read, time to talk:

I do agree with Alex that today should be hit fast.  Andy's killing at 6pm EST unless I mis-read.  QR and Tai are the biggest players so far, but...I'm fairly certain one is lying, but there is always the possibility they're telling the truth.  I don't think Tai (my beloved Marisa!) would stick herself out on the line like that to catch a potential cop (that only works 2 out of 3 days?  Mmm...).  Nonetheless, one should probably be nuked.  And I'm thinking QR gets my vote.  If she truly cannot scan tonight, then wouldn't scum off her anyway?  Maybe not tonight, but tomorrow.  She's useless for basically 2 days in terms of investigations.  Scum can kill her tomorrow, and we'd get no more use out of her.  This sounds horrible, but it's the unfortunate truth.  If Tai has some magic left in him, we can get use out of that sooner rather than later (hopefully...either way, it'd still give us some information).

Andy is...odd.  On one hand, I feel he's done a decent job of defending himself and his actions.  On the other hand, those actions, the more I look at them, are questionable and somewhat dangerous for town.  And yet I still don't get a hard (note the term) scum read from him.  He's played a dangerous game, and it could be good - or it could bite us all in the ass.  So...I'm conflicted.  I think I err on the side of him being town at this point.  Granted, there could always be the situation where he's waiting until 6pm to just MIND RAPE US ALL by instead nuking someone else.  But the fact that he's asking for a concensus on this makes me think he's good for this.  

So just to get that out of the way:

##Andy: Quietrain (to avoid the mess that using a vote might pull)

After that...

Nitori and Ciato I'm wondering about.  Ciato's been very...not here, but she's already expressed interest in want a replacement, so...I think I can forgive that.  Still...this needs to be watched.  Nitori...I had suspicions of him on day 1, and he's still not satisfying me.  Ciato defended him earlier a bit, but...I don't think there's much there that works to be defended.  I'm still seeing "me-too" vibes.  

Otter...as Alex said, is posting less than expected and a little different than I'm used to seeing, but...he's posting.  Hal's posting.  Tonfa...different time zone, said he'd be back.  Hopefully before the vigline.  

Once the vig occurs, I say focus on non-QR/Tai/Andrew.  Unless somehow we pull good information out of the kill, which might happen.  But we need to broaden our suspect list a bit more.  

Gah, this is confusing and difficult.

[AndrewRogue]

First... yes. What I'm saying is that, in addition to Chisa being killed, I was specifically told my power was used to evade a kill last night. This means that, outside of very weird circumstances, there were two kills last night: one against me, one against Chisa.

Now, onto Alex, who has managed to set off all sorts of alarms with me.

His softclaims haven't been very hard to see through.  "My evasion WAS 50%, what it is now I'll let you decide" is tantamount to saying outright "it was oneshot and I ain't got it anymore."  What else is it gonna do, become 100% and make you Rumia, Mistress of the Night Actions?  Admittedly, softclaiming a power to stop a lynch and then having it turn out to be via killing one of the lynch voters was pretty unexpected.  Also not very pro-town.

Well, apparently that's what you have pegged me as, since a lot of the pressure on me, aside from the soft claim thing, is based on me being too good for town. More to the point, if my softclaims have been fairly transparent, then I'm not really misleading town and, to some degree, achieving my goal of potentially disrupting and putting scum off balance.

Again, the man's claiming he would vig a random Tom voter to protect the day one copclaim (protecting copclaim good, semi-random vigging very bad) and at the same time saying he didn't openly declare his dayvig to the town until late on day 2 (when he was under fire!) because he wanted to save it for when we had more information.  Unless I'm mistaken, these are two mutually exclusive stances.

At a basic level, yeah, they are mutually exclusive. But you are neglecting how I attempted to set things up so I could handle them. I, of course, want to save my vig power for when it was most useful, which would mean I want to save it for when we can really matter, ala when we have enough information that double lynches would be more likely to tag scum than town. Of course, the nature of this game is evolving strategy, and I felt that saving Tom was a priority at the time.

Of course, random vigging a voter on his train was not the greatest plan in the world, but that is exactly why I didn't just do it, and instead made a vague threat. If my words did my work for me, then I would be more than happy because it means I achieve both my goals: saving Tom (a man with a cop claim) and saving my vig power. As you'll note, this is exactly what happened. So, while at the most literal level, yes, they are mutually exclusive. I avoided using them that way.

He asks where he's really hurt town or attempted to be anything but helpful, aside from the part where he lied to town.  That's one of those ironic self-answering questions, but I'll go ahead anyhow and say the answer is "When you threatened town and were willing to kill a Tom voter day 1."  And also "When you fished for cop counterclaims (and finally got QR to bite)."  And "When you were willing to put your own survival as your first priority, at the cost of misleading town about yourself."  This last being one of the surest signs of non-town alignment you can get.  He's still claiming to be doing his best to keep himself alive, at whatever price, and refuses to use his kill on himself even if town should vote that way - I can kind of understand that on gut, but seriously now, that's not how you play Team Town, read day 1 again and learn a lesson about taking one for the team.

I want people to pay attention to those three particular points.

1. I've argued this at least a dozen times right now, but I felt the cop claimer was important to protect, and that killing anyone else was a better choice at that point. Given some of the strangeness on the train (QR pushing it so adamantly), I, in fact, felt that I might well be able to tag scum.

2. Check this. He ignores allllll the earlier arguments about this subject and then blames me for QR's claim, when her claim has nothing to do with what he is referring to my fishing anyways. This is essentially written in a way to make me look worse than I actually am.

3. Check this, too. He is taking something that I'm not actually doing (saving myself at any cost, which obviously I'm not doing, otherwise I'd be happily vigging one of my detractors at this point) and then accusing me of bad team play FOR NOT VIGGING MYSELF IF THAT IS HOW THE VOTES FALL. Please tell me you all see the problem with this. Yes, it is important to be willing to take one for the team sometimes, but Alex just advocated that I be willing to use my one-shot kill power to kill myself. Let me reiterate that. In a sense, he wants me to be willing to waste a very strong town weapon against someone who I know is town. This is not taking one for the team, this is bloody stupid.

I understand that team play for town is important but, argh, maybe I'm just misunderstanding some basic strategy. But ideally, as town, wouldn't I have an interest in keeping myself alive? I know my alignment. In fact, I'm the only person I know 100% is town. As long as I'm alive, I can theoretically help town. In my case, this is even more pronounced because I have one power that is specifically useful to town (two, if you count my night kill absorbstion). Why would I not play in a way that shows an interest in staying alive? No. I don't want to die, because I KNOW I'm useful to town.

Speaking of his stance on QR, you'll notice I'm not even including those arguments above.  She was the subject today and knew it and claiming was the right thing to do in order to get us right to happy informed discussion time.  It stands in quite the contrast to Andrew's slow piecemeal softclaims, which have dragged out over the course of the whole evening tonight and have us only now moving to actually do things (and still wondering if there's anything ELSE he hasn't told us).  I don't see her as having strongly avoided lynch trains, given how she pushed the one on Tom.  She has been aggressive, which is a good thing for a townie to be.  Her going after Tom was indeed risky and I don't agree with it, but I can see her logic, especially assuming she's a cop herself, and don't consider it invalid.

She wasn't trying to give us discussion time though. She was trying to cut it off. She said so herself. She claimed (not a good position at that point either) so we could skip past her and move on!

[QuietRain]

She wasn't trying to give us discussion time though. She was trying to cut it off. She said so herself. She claimed (not a good position at that point either) so we could skip past her and move on!

WHOA.  Now, I may lay down and take this for the town, but I am NOT going to do so over a lie.  I claimed early so we could get a discussion going of whether or not people believe me, not to cut off discussion.  Do NOT paint me with colors I do not wear.  I have said that all along.  And my reasoning was that if I didn't believe Tom Day 1 and there were others who didn't, then there would be people who didn't believe me.  This meant we needed time to argue the point.

I SAID that I was hoping to take myself out of the running, not stop conversation.  I did not manage to take myself out of the running, but that doesn't chage the fact that that was what I was trying to do.  You can skew however you want my choice to reveal, but not WHY I have said it.  Now, if you don't believe my reasoning, that's up to you.  But do not put words into my mouth that I have not used.

Now, my last post was to cut off the argument, yes.  But that's after we've been arguing the point for nearly a day now.  That's hardly cutting off discussion after...what...10 pages?

[Otter]

QR, remember patchucloud?  Remember when she gave up and said things like "Fine, lynch me, I'll try to help out in the meantime I guess until I die and flip town" and this looked really bad and we lynched her?  Yeah, the defense of "Okay, I'll die if town wants me to, just stop talking about it and do it" isn't great and it isn't convincing.  If you are in fact a cop, and you have no reason to be sure that you're anything but a sane cop (Tai could be lying straight to your face), then why are you lying down and taking this?  I don't know if you remember, but Alex informed us very correctly that cops are just that important.  They are crucial town weapons.  Losing one is terrible.

So why aren't you arguing for yourself at all, now that a few people have said you look bad?  Too much effort to defend yourself or build a better case on someone else?  You're the COP, it's not like it isn't worth it.  If you were a vanilla townie, I'd still have a problem with being so fine with dying and in fact urging the kill to happen soon with no further discussion.  Since you claim to be a cop, your attitude is absolutely inexplicable to me.  If you don't want to die, and if you're really a cop then you really really shouldn't, then try harder.

[Shale]

He's still claiming to be doing his best to keep himself alive, at whatever price, and refuses to use his kill on himself even if town should vote that way - I can kind of understand that on gut, but seriously now, that's not how you play Team Town, read day 1 again and learn a lesson about taking one for the team.

Okay, seriously, Alex, you're going to have to explain that one. "Taking one for the team" means accepting that you may be mislynched without the people who do so being scum, and making the most of your death to help town. It doesn't extend to hammering yourself instead of someone else, which is essentially what Andrew would be doing in that situation. If we want Andrew dead, we can lynch him after the vig.

[OblivionKnight]

I agree with Shale.  The lynch of Andrew, if deemed necessary, can occur after the vig.  Hopefully we'll have some information to go on after the vig.

[QuietRain]

(Responding to this stuff while on a telecon is wacky.  I've had to ask what they were saying three times now.  They prolly think I'm an idiot.)

Otter, because what more can I say that I haven't already said?  I have told everyone my thoughts and reasonings.  I have argued as well as I am able.  I have even asked people if there was anything they wanted to know that I had not thought of and I would be willing to talk about.  And you can see very clearly that I have no one else at all on the chopping block with me except for Andy who is obviously not going to vig himself and Tai (although there is no vote for him as was pointed out).

I can not invent things to argue about just to make more posts.  This is already a mess and a wonderful smokescreen for the scum.  I don't think killing a cop is a good idea.  I think you're all bloody nuts.  But I'm not going to stand here and waste time when I have all of maybe 2 people saying killing me is bad and I have like 6-7 votes on me to day vig and no other viable options in sight.  

I can't magickally make people believe me Otter.  I wish I could.  Either you do or you don't after reading everything I have to say.  I find great irony in the fact that the only lynch train is on the claimed cop after everyone screamed don't kill a cop day 1.  People need to learn consistancy if nothing else.  I would be HAPPY to answer any questions anyone has, but I plain can not think of anything else you may want to know.  My brain is tapped out.  I have argued this all day.  I gave my reasons to stay on the Tom train, my reasons for finding Andrew worrisome and my resons for roleclaiming at the time that I did.  If there's anything else someone can think of, please let me know.  I'm not a super computer, I can't think of everything that might be helpful to know.

If I had to put forth another vig target, the only other thing I can think of is to vig a lurker, but I have no reads on what lurkers might be scum as opposed to those that might be quiet town.  And hitting random town just bothers me.  It's part of why what Andrew said about killing someone on the Tom train to save a potential cop rubbed me the wrong way.  Killing someone at random with no reason could net you scum, yes, it could also kill our doc, another cop, or who know what other pro-town role that may be useful.  I don't HAVE another target.  I wish I did.  All I know is that I'm leery of taking out Tai now that my sanity is in question (and by that I mean cop sanity, I know *I*'m not nutz, stop laughing Gate ).  I think the best bet would be to take out Andrew, but he's not very well going to vig himself, now is he?  He's the only one I'm getting a scumy/worrisome feel from.  I wish someone would put forth a good case for another target.  I would be happy to weigh in on it. But all anyone seems to want to do at this point is argue Tai/Me/Andrew and that's getting us nowhere.

So, if anyone has ANOTHER vig candidate, then by all means I'll comment.  I'll go back and review their stuff and make a decision.  I just don't want another 4-5 pages of Andy/Tai/Me going on.

[QuietRain]

I'm not throwing my hands up and saying I quit.  I'm still here.  I'll still be the same determined townie I always am up until the vig hammer falls.  I just think that it's not getting us anywhere to going in the same circle.  If in the course of talking about our lynch target, we may come up with a BETTER vig target.  And THAT'S why I am anxious to move on.  We've beat this horse to death.  Right now we've all said the same things so often that we wouldn't see something new if it slapped us in the face, I think, if we keep on the same track.  We need to pull the train to a stop and start looking for a new one.  What the new train tells us may save me.  If it does, great!  I will try my very best to stay alive.  If not, then it gives me a chance to participate in the lynch discussion right up until the vig hammer falls.  I don't want to waste what time I've got left cryign 'Don't Kill Me I'm a COP!'.  I can't see a better target than Andrew (which has no chance of saving my role) so I'd like to bring the discussion around to who we might lynch to see if NEW CONVERSATION might bring something to light I've missed.

[AndrewRogue]

QR... how am I supposed to take the statement:

So, I'm going to see if I can take myself out of the running with a roleclaim

as anything but trying to avoid discussion about yourself? Look at today. Who is the primary focus of discussion? You, Tai and me. Who are we? The folks highest in the running for being scum. Who is not being discussed? The people not in the running for being scum. The logical breakdown, therefore, is that if you remove yourself from the running, you won't be discussed. From there, well, doesn't it sure as hell look like you are trying to avoid being talked about?

I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement, but could you please avoid tossing around the word "lie" willy nilly? I'm working off exactly what you said. I may have misinterpreted it, but I didn't lie.

In addition to that, does the synergy she just expressed between Alex and herself bother anyone. Alex chides me for not being willing to use my power to kill myself as not being willing to engage in team play because I'm not "taking one for the team" when it would be beyond stupid. QR follows up seven posts later with:

Now, I may lay down and take this for the town

Thus putting herself right in that nice pile that Alex established of "good little townies who will take one for the team."

Maybe I'm a bad townie and a bad team player, but at least I'm fighting tooth and nail to stay alive because my power is useful to town. I'm fighting tooth and nail to stay alive because I know that ANYBODY else is a better lynch than me, as they at least have a chance of being scum.

You are claiming you are a good little townie, because you're willing to end discussion, lay down and die. Despite supposedly being our cop. Despite supposedly being town aligned.

Which of us is playing better to town again?

Vig is at 2pm PST, unless I misremember.

##Me: QR
##Vote: Alex

Addedum: Two posts while I was posting. I'll deal with them after.

[QuietRain]

Andy, I can't see where you read my trying to take myself out of the running as trying to cut off conversation.  I really can not wrap my mind around it.  I wanted to clear up who I was and why I had been acting that way in the hopes that people would see the need to keep me from getting vigged by you as you had so clearly threatened to do.  How can I clear this up by going 'I'm a Cop!  Everyone shut up and pick someone else!'.  That's just insanity.  There is no way to cut off converation and still have people believe me.  And no hope to survive to use my abilities UNLESS people believe me.  Why would I shoot myself in the foot like that?

And I HAVE fought tooth and nail,  Right now, the only way I see to save myself is to find someone else who everyone conceeds would be a better target than me.  The only way we're going to do this is to stop the circle of you/me/Tai and start talking other people.  And if it doesn't happen and I still get vigged, then at least I know I participated and tried my best to help town get the right lynch even if they did not get the right vig.

I'm not saying I'm playing 'good little townie'.  You're the one slinging that mud.  I've made huge mistakes and I'm not even PRENTENDING that I didn't.  But for every 'mistake' I've made, I had my reasons to do so.  Maybe I roleclaimed too early.  I told you why I did though.  Maybe I should have believe Tom and gotten off the train.  I told you why I didn't.  I said I would die of that's what everyone is so dead set on doing, despite what I feel to be the best course of action.  But to just argue this ONE point all the way until deadline prevents my ability to discuss anyone else that might come up.  I'd like to be a participating townie.  Do you think you might let me do that?  When I flip, you guys will have plenty of time to argue what that does to your current front runners to lynch.  I only have a couple hours here to provide some decent content on possible lynchees.  Can we turn the conversation to them instead of this constant smokescreen you're involved in about us?  It's old.

[AndrewRogue]

Oh brother, where the hell do I start with this.

There is always something more to discuss, QR. Always. If you can't properly defend yourself, why aren't you attacking people. If you actually are cop, don't you think scum are going to be out there trying to nail you? Why aren't you dismantling the posts against you to try and find new evidence for who could be scum?

And you have to excuse me for a second but...

I don't think killing a cop is a good idea.  I think you're all bloody nuts.

SAYS THE ONE WHO WANTED TO LYNCH TOM ON DAY ONE. Suddenly, we're all nuts for something you thought was a good idea? At least we have some real, substantive reasons for thinking you aren't cop. You, at best, had your own role and Tom acting like Tom. What the hell?

More to the bloody point (I'm going to skip reiterating my points about fighting tooth and nail to stay alive), how are we supposed to move onto a discussion of who to lynch if, well, we don't have any candidates besides the vig targets? I mean, seriously. You can't argue about the vig issue to save your life at this point (which is where we have the most information at this point, from the targets themselves and the argumentation around them) and you somehow expect to be able to suddenly go "So, man, how about our next lynch"?

I... gragh. I really have no way to express my dismay and utter, utter slack-jawed shock at this sort of play if you are actually town. I might not be perfect either but, ugh. Every post you make at this point is cementing it in my mind that you are scum.

Addendum: Stop posting while I'm posting.

[AndrewRogue]

Then stop arguing the point and lay down and take it like you said you would.

I'm getting things out of this. For example, Alex's last attack on me was poorly formed and included some very, very nasty logic (lol, be willing to kill yourself Andrew). Your riding up on his good little townie coattails connects you to him in an interesting and unpleasant way, wherein it seems possible that the two of you are in cahoots. Similarly, he has had a fairly soft opinion of Otter, who has been lurker extrodinaire, to the point I forgot he was in the game, and only came out to add pressure on me.

Lookit that! There is plenty of information to be gained from the you/me/Tai argumentation and you are practically ignoring it. This isn't a roundabout NO U argument. This is the kind of thing that helps town as it helps us catch scum trying to come out on the attack. Hell, consider this.

I claim confidence against night kills. Someone tries to do it anyway. Alex has made a point in stating that most of my softclaims have been rather transparent. Following it out as a logical train. Alex has claimed he is canny enough to have understood my soft claims. The point in that one was obvious: I never claimed I was bulletproof. It is quite possible Alex took my statement as a bluff to keep scum off my back.

Focus on what's being said QR. This isn't useless material. We're getting huge posts out of people. This is how you get things done.

[QuietRain]

Focus on what's being said QR. This isn't useless material. We're getting huge posts out of people. This is how you get things done.

We're not getting huge posts out of people with new content.  Everyone is saying the same darned things over and over.  How does regurgitated information help town? 

I'll be happy to involve myself in anything new.  Or any questions people have for me.  What I'm not doing is continuing this argument with you, Andy.  It's fruitless, frustrating and gets us nowhere.  You've made your point and nothing I say does anything but egg you on.  And I'm sick of both you and this argument.

Post less than 100 and I so frigging don't care.  I'm here for 2 more hours and I will be happy to comment on any new information about possible lynch/vig targets other than Andy/Tai/Me or for any questions anyone has for me in particular.

[AndrewRogue]

Uh. Yes you are. You just did it.

Hell, you completely ignored that I just made a post with something new. I explained how this argument has provided us with something to make Alex look bad. Be happy! Talk about it!

[Shale]

Okay, I'm gonna spread the love a bit.

##Vote Ciato

Every single post you've made today has been asking for clarification or something or just talking about how brain-hurty the whole thing is. Not that I don't sympathize! Still, that feeds the bad feeling you've been giving me the past few days. Sayeth something.

[Tonfa]

So I return, though I'm extremely tired. Few thoughts I can formulate before passing out:

Alex: Looking really bad with his recent logic, self-killing just being a complete "WHAT" suggestion. (And I typed "decent" there before catching my error. >_> Fatigued.) Reading back through his posts...I get a forced feel from his asdf tantrums. Nothing I can really justify this with, but.

Ciato: Has posted nothing but one liners for the past two (actual, not game) days. This is after she said she'd be looking more on Gate, too. Pot-kettling here with lurker accusations, I guess, but this is getting really extreme and completely slipping under the radar.

Gate: ...radar isn't registering anything. This is vaguely worrying.

Still supporting QR vigging, this latest discussion isn't helping matters.

Back hurts, resuming post in a bit.

[VySaika]

And if QR's post restriction is to be belived, then that <100 word post puts her at -2 to hammer. As I'm paranoid about the day ending before the Vig I'll ##Unvote: Queitrain.

A longer post with content coming in a bit, I just wanted this out here first. Call me paranoid, but I don't like leaving us at -2 to hammer before the vigshot is used today.

[Corwin]

I'm giving up and no longer commenting on every little thing. Work was... difficult, and there's every reason to suspect it will continue to do so for the rest of the week. I can't catch up to 10 pages of posts thoroughly, so while I'll certainly be reading them that way, I won't be as nitpicky as I've been so far until I have more free time.

Suffice it to say that so far, I find Tai more believable... ironically because I can see a single case where he could be lying over his millertude, town, and lying for the best interests of town. (Got thinking about that from Shale's comment: Hell, I initially wrote "Godfather or non-miller town," but I can't imagine the logic that would go into a false miller claim here.). I can, and that would pretty much sink QR. Eh. Very unlikely. Tai is more likely than not telling the truth. That's just the feel I'm getting from him, especially since I can't see the case for him lying and doing so to hurt town/because he is scum. It's possible. Yes. But not probably, not by a longshot.

Some of my earlier questions get answered, if not to my utmost satisfaction, then at least enough for me to let them go as less important in the larger scheme of things and allow me to focus on the more important arguments.

On Andrew: I'm willing to give him some space to prove his claim (remember, we still haven't seen actual evidence of this dayvig; it boggles the mind why someone would lie about it, but... Tai/QR. Tom. So yeah). If he proves himself, and generally acts as the town wishes him to, given that he's claiming allegience to us... yeah, I see no reason to hound him at this time.

All the talk of killing both Tai and QR is, erm, stupid. While a blatant lie or some bizarre flip on the part of one of them would indeed give us near certainty of the other's alignment, one way or the other... why even debate killing both before seeing the first flip? But I'm not reading anything actually scummy in this. It's a strange enough situation that it's not really that close to xyz, I think, just distantly related. Second cousins, say?

smodge not reading QR's actual claim, as Shale points out (the obvious; sorry, Shale, but I think everyone saw it but smodge). Yeah, that doesn't look good. Super kept making these mistakes in NR, and... just yeah. I made the wrong call there, and while there's always a chance of going too far in the other direction when you're correcting yourself... yeah. Even later, smodge goes to say: "My mistake, i only saw the "slowcop" part."  (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5263#msg5263) Lots of 'yeah'. Combined with the things I didn't like about smodge earlier, mentioned in my previous posts, that's a FoS. Not a vote, because I snuck a peek towards Kilga's latest tally as I glanced through the topic for it to see how actually relevant this post would be. I'm reserving my vote to clearly show who I think should die, and it's unrealistic smodge would get the necessary dayvig votes by now.

I know it's kinda bad listening to the accused, as he's not the most impartial of witnesses... but Tai here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5275#msg5275) makes quite a lot of sense. I like that it mirrors my thought process a lot, and that helps me lean towards him even more, and by default away from QR. The likelihood of them both being truthful AND for QR to have actual cop powers useful to town such as a non-naive cop (which is one of the considerations of lynching Tai over a claimed cop)... well, it's really, really small, from where I'm looking at it.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5320#msg5320

Jesus, more from Yakumo, wondering where I disappeared to at 5:47am. I WONDER WHERE. All this constant and seemingly inoffensive dropping of suggestions that I'm lurking nefariously in the shadows (instead of sleeping, catching up with posts on a busy day at work or unable to post since the mod hasn't declared the night phase over) is beginning to set off flags for me. Of course, I'm not the most impartial of people here. I just know that Yakumo knows perfectly what my waking times are, and that I couldn't post during the nights -- both of mine and in the game, sandwiched between them -- which came back to back to me, all three of them. Unless he forgot, I dunno, it hasn't been that long since Tsukihime. Does anyone else find this puzzling? I really don't want to get caught into an OMGUS claim, especially irritated and tired as I am after today.

Otter delurks, asks for other people to explain things to him? Seems... slightly off. One should always try to trust their lying eyes over the words of others (since you're only ever certain of your own alignment). And I don't feel the slightest bit of irony saying that, since my request re: Yakumo came from being too close to the matter, and asking for a second opinion after I've already came up with one myself. On a reread, I'm not even sure this means anything. I'm beginning to nod off, so it looks like time to take a break. I'm still out of phase, but reaching page 37 of 42 is an improvement over being 11 pages behind.

Ah, right. I wanted to support my conviction with a vote. ##Vote: QR. From my sneak peek ahead, this shouldn't hammer her even if someone posts simultaneously. Ideally, I would like to have enough time to wake up, use an hour or two to catch up, and make the final decision... but based on what I've seen so far-- well, I've covered it all above, and nothing changed my mind till page 37, so far.

[Yakumo]

Frankly, no, I don't know your waking times, just that you aren't around during the time I have access to a computer.  I apologize if that is all it was, but you were gone for quite a long time, and I wanted to make sure that people didn't forget the whole thing in today's mess.