Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

[Carthrat]

Ciato: It's fundamentally because I didn't see any reason for someone to be pro-Mia when you defended her. There were a *lot* of flaws in the way she was posting. Yes, it may be chalked up to stress and whatnot, but.. why is this excusable? My thought-patterns basically went...

1) What Mia is doing is not excusable
2) Ciato is defending Mia for inexcusable posting
3) A townie would have little reason to do this
4) Ciato is probably scum trying to protect Mia and score 'I told you so!' points, as well as accuse mean ol' townies who attacked her of being scummy.

Since you.. have not really done this, I'm not going to push it. I'm still kind of concerned with your lurkerness previously and, well, the *tone* of your posts, but I'm no longer thinking you're scummy for the main reason I previously was.

<->

The Andrew Thing: I'm not that sure I buy the third-party case. Just having a lot of power isn't what I'd call a tell of such (not the way this game is looking, sigh). His deception could have easily been an attempt to throw scum into confusion (misguided and somewhat foolish as it may be) and I don't think the case against him is nearly as certain as the idea of one of Nitori and Corwin being scum.

WITH THAT SAID, anyone who DOES strongly think he is a third party should be voting for him and I'm going to be very interested in those who haven't over the next couple of days, I think.

<->

Nitori vs. Corwin. Despite my increasing concern that the simple path is never the right one, I'm gonna continue! One of them is probably scum *assuming OK is telling the truth*. Whether or not this holds water may well be proven tonight, depending on who he watches. I'm annoyed at him for claiming now, at a time when it may not have been necessary- he could've got another watcher investigation in tonight (on whoever, it hardly even matters) which could narrow things down more. I digress.

I'm waiting for Corwin to confirm/deny taking action on Tom night 1 and his subsequent roleclaim. He has not looked too hot since he took Andrew to task back in day two for rolefishing... but I was forgiving a lot of Andrew's mistakes based on him being a dayvig and us needing to preserve that power, along with the way people were voting for him in the past. That doesn't necessarily excuse Corwin's reactions at that time, but it *has* coloured my perceptions of him.

re: Cid: You're voting Corwin for... pressure? He's got four votes on him. Nitori had *one*. You sure you didn't have another reason?

re: Otter, what does selecting a target really prove about Nitori, though? Since scum will know about this as well (and probably already know if Nitori is actually a quack or not), the potential is there for them to mess with the results regardless of whom his target actually is. Sure, I'm all for directing a potential town nightkill, but we can't assume this will give us much clearance on the situation.

To be honest, I find the quack idea pretty weird, and it doesn't account for the scum NK. Powerless doc seems more likely at the moment (and, of course, docbuster), and the quack thing seems, in fact, like a way he may be able to get away with justifying another day or two of kills before getting lynched (I just did what you guys said!)

I'm having a lot of trouble choosing between Cor and Nitori, I guess. My opinions on Cor have wavered throughout the game, and Nitori has been lurking somewhat, but has also recently posted some stuff, including his doclaim The feeling that Cor has generally put out more content than him- along with what I find to be a highly dubious roleclaim in the end- has lead me to this.

##Vote: Nitori

It is not a very solid vote. Today, at least, I won't be annoyed if it goes to deadline, given that I want to analyze these two again and I still need to wait for Cor to claim (or at least post ANYTHING in his defence.)

[Corwin]

O...kay.

I guess the cat's out of the bag, now. I don't see myself living through the night, not with this forced out of me, but at least I might survive to the night and actually do some good for once in this game.

I have five Impossible Requests. Guess what they do? I'll even give you all a hint: I used two of them so far, one on Tom night 1, and another on Andrew night 2. Since it would be the height of gayness (the bad kind, not the fluffy yuri kind) to give me limited chances to save people and have them be ineffectual... yeah, I'm no quack or fraud or whatever loser doctor exists that doesn't work as it should. Just my luck that scum have (had?) something goddamn more powerful than an Impossible Request to counter me with Tom, and that Andrew is lolimmune to all night actions. I'd thank Andrew for making me waste one needlessly, when I could've targetted someone else instead, but yeah. I clearly am not going to live long enough to spend all five anyhow, so it's moot.

So. OK claims he sees QR, Nitori and myself visit Tom night 1. Tom ends up dead. QR flips supercop. Nitori is an American and claims doc first (except not really, cause he's a quack, naturally) and... I get four votes on me before I'm even around. What the HELL, people?!

I can't see OK AND Nitori lying about this together, and I don't really see OK lying and Nitori jumping on the chance as town, because that would eclipse Tom's monumental stupidity from day 1. Therefore, occam's razor suggests Nitori went on the kill, and somehow managed to bypass me. I also think that if Kilga had just picked abilities by thematic assosiation alone AND gave us our choice of characters at gamestart... it would be kinda retarded. But no, people are eating this illogic up, and Nitori's suddenly around a lot to serve it all around just because he's Eirin and jumped on a chance to take me down with him.

Since I know this will come up: why the hell would I choose to protect Tom whom I both didn't believe and thought was a failure as a player night 1? Duh. He's still town, I even said I believed as much when I posted that I disagreed with QR (she thought he was lying and scum, I just thought he was lying to survive). I was forced to adapt myself to a new situation when Strago was the one lynched. Personal dislike of Tom's mafia play aside... we need to lynch, and lynching bad players is acceptable. But that leaves a paper trail of votes and posts. A NK tells us nothing but the flip. I didn't believe we would get anything out of his night 1 flip. Was I right? On the one hand, it was confirmed to you lot (aside from QR, who believed the same thing I did) that he was indeed lying. On the other... he was still town, and you majority-lynched Patchu for it, when she happened to be an innocent if inept townie. I honestly don't know if I made the right call that night. Only time will tell, probably.

And why did I protect Andrew despite my suspicions on him? You're kidding, right? Andrew is not Tom, I said as much. I had no reason to not wait for him to deliver on his roleclaim. Also, I totally support more lynches by way of dayvigging. He was confident he would live to see morning. I was less confident, considering my protection of Tom didn't exactly take, so I decided to stack the odds, just in case.

So where do we go from here? Town has a claimed Watcher that saw me visit the person I visited, so OK's pretty much confirmed for me. Tai... I trust him (and that part's been solidly reinforced by QR's flip), and his Watcher powers could be easily proved as well, especially since he outed himself and has no reason to hold back on his results tomorrow. If I had decent chances of living to see the next morning, I would've kept the rest to myself, till then, but....

Andrew is likely a third party. It is in the interests of scum and town alike to take him down, and the longer the game goes, the less chances of this actually happening, what with roleclaims on town's side and scumtells/contraditions/outright lies on scum's side, which would probably take precedence. And then, we're in LYLO and get a WoT situation where a Grefter wins. "Yes, I'm third party! I lied earlier, but I'll help you lynch scum so at least scum doesn't win!" -- well, neither would WE, in that case. I really don't like Alex's arguments this game. That, and the desire to kill THAT SCUM (How could you do this to me, Eirin?!) make me lean towards the Nitori lynch. But on the off chance Alex is right this time... plus, when I flip tonight that would convict Nitori just as well. I know, I know, we should lynch scum as soon as one's confirmed, but is my word alone confirmation enough for the rest of you? Argh. I honestly don't know which way to vote, but my last vote for the game would support town decision, once both options have been weighed against each other.

smodge is still suspicious to me, but it's maybe-scummy-seeming, not SCUM or THIRD PARTY-scummy. But it's important to get this out while I still can.

Anyway. To reiterate.

On Nitori: You are a LYING SCUM. DIE.

On Andrew: As a too-good-to-be-true town claim, you're likeliest to actually be a third party. You had your shot of dayvig and used it up for us, which is admirable and I salute you. Don't take it personally, but we actually want to win and leaving you around goes against that. If you have more kills in you, then you've clearly lied and deserve to die even more. If you don't, town has gotten all the use out of its alliance with you it can.

The case on Nitori is much simpler by comparison, it appears.

P.S.
To Cid (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5531#msg5531): Scum would know whether OK's one of them or not. I'm believing him, since he had no way of otherwise knowing I went to see Tom night 1. Therefore, going by that, he's town and announced that a cop, SCUM (Nitori) and someone else went to see Tom... do you think I did so for my health? That's ridiculous and scum would jump at the chance to kill an investigative or protective role. Nitori's been made, so he's a write off anyway. How does it not make sense to get me lynched along with him? Even if they figured I was some kind of vig they would still want to be rid of anyone else's night kills. And if I hadn't come clean as doc they might not have had another chance to kill me during the night, if whatever they used to bust my protection simply isn't there anymore and they were afraid of some mysterious other player who chose not to go for Tom saving my ass tonight.

"Day two, Corwin continues his case against Andy by voting for him." That is a LIE. I never had a case of any kind on Andrew aside from LURKING. You are making me use caps, plural, and that greatly annoys me. Kindly stop.

So, "Explain yourself, please." back to you. Why am I not surprised you jumped on the train that formed on me? A couple more votes, and it'd have momentum of its own, whatever I say. Goddammit.

[Smodge13]

1st, Corwin why the hell haven't you backed this up with a vote?

2nd ##Vote:Nitori
for my initial reasons see why i voted for him at the end of day 2.
1 of these 2 have got to be lying (unless there is a case where both are telling the truth if anyone could suggest one i'd be glad to hear it, we don't want another QR happening)

So far we have had
1 supercop
1 illusionist
1 doublevoter
1 watcher (supposedly)
1 doc (whether its Corwin or Nitori is another matter)
1 martyr
1 Jack of all trades (Tai with possible 2nd being Andrew)

This is one hell of a powerful town, i'm starting to it as possible that Andrew is telling the truth along the lines of being Town, he has a role very similar to Tai's, multiple abilities some of which cannot be spoken.

Anyway, with the way all these signs are showing i find it easier to believe that the Town has a doc and scum a docbuster, the other theory that we have a Quack doc (which is probably more powerful than even a normal doc) seems too overpowered for the towns benefit.

Corwins posts have been high content despite odd hours and have made a lot more sense to me than Nitori's who always drifts under the radar.

Anyway this is why my vote goes to Nitori.

[Corwin]

Fine. ##Vote: Nitori, because he's the only one I'm 100% certain is SCUM.

[Shale]

First, FoS Smodge. This is the second time he's tried to poke a hole in the logic of an important roleclaim post that he obviously hasn't done more than skim (on reflection, make that two, since to claim that a quack is more powerful than a standard doc is to not at all understand what a quack is)

Argh. I honestly don't know which way to vote

And suchforth.

Anyway. Corwin/Nitori. Both make roleclaims I find eminently believable coming from this trainwreck of a setup. Tom and Andrew were undeniably the best choice for docs to protect on nights 1 and 2, respectively, hard to fault either of them there. Need to look over both of them in depth, and don't have time for that this morning. Corwin saying he hit night-action immunity when trying to doc Andrew, while Nitori mentions nothing of the sort...feh. Could bolster either one's claim, since Quack!Nitori wouldn't see the immunity, but I figure it might be worth pointing out.

[Tonfa]

Mmph. So it turns out I crashed while resting to ease the back pain, so no post continuation yesterday. Sorry about that. Taking a break from studying for tomorrow to check Mafia now.

Alex: His rather heavy-handed attempts at traffic controlling discussion along with an uncharacteristic posting style (I don't recall seeing him abuse asdf/bold/underline before) ring alarm bells with me. Also a thought that keeps rising to mind is that both town AND scum have very good reasons for wanting to get rid of a possible third party, and considering Andy can (allegedly) avoid night actions...Alex could very well be trying to drive the town to do his bidding as scum.

Corwin/Nitori: Roleclaims that can't really be proven either way from past actions. One, and not the other, is most likely scum. Mrf. Corwin has the more useful if true roleclaim obviously but neither of them looks any sort of good to me at the moment. Need to further reread their posts for contradictions, I suppose. ... Mm. Actually considering the way OK(who I fully believe is town)/Nitori/Corwin reported the results of their actions on Andrew...Nitori's is the one least likely to match, I think. Suspicion on Nitori.

##VOTE: Nitori

Throwing the vote now. Further posting to come sooner or later today.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Well, I suppose I should lay down a vote. I think one of Corwin and Nitori is scum, and I think it's Nitori, buuut right now I think I agree with Alex. What time is deadline, anyway?

##VOTE: Andrew

[Otter]

Okay.  Right now, my top three suspects of being scum (in the not-town sense) are Nitori, Andrew, and Corwin.  Andrew would be higher, but I'm forced to admit that if he were actually a townie with all kinds of great powers, it wouldn't be surprising for him to act a bit self-centered (and therefore have a 3rd party-ish attitude, as I detected) in the interest of keeping himself alive for town's sake.  In this game, I'm no longer capable of saying that such a powerful role in the hands of town is overwhelmingly unlikely; it's a definite possibility to consider, and it even accounts for his attitude in a way.  So, he's merely #2 right now for me.

I shouldn't have to explain how Nitori and Corwin got on the list, but I will say that, examining both of their responses (and ignoring the lateness of Corwin's reply, because time zones were the factor there), I am more convinced than ever that Nitori's our culprit.  This fits with all my impressions so far over the course of the game, during which I've found Corwin helpful and content-high while Nitori's been making occasional posts with little content and generally seeming to stay in the shadows.

If they were both townies, which Alex has raised as a possibility, then what happened to the scum NK that night?  This has not been accounted for, and unless someone fesses up and explains that a protection occurred, I'm forced to conclude that the scum NK was on Tom.  Ergo, it was one of Corwin or Nitori.

My confidence on Nitori being scum is definitely the highest.  I'm not choosing to vote for him because I think we need to hit scum rather than 3rd party, or anything like that -- Alex is correct in saying that non-town = scum and we want them dead equally.  I'm voting for him because he's the one I'm most sure of.  Vote stays unless I hear something to change that.

[Yakumo]

What the hell, Alex?  No such thing as town-friendly third party?  I suggest you go look at your FFT roles again.  Remember what you told the cop Hinode/Kilga were?

[Shale]

I was considering bringing that up but didn't want to get even deeper into that argument with the Nitori/Corwin choice looming. But yeah, that he did - and when he went over the roles in the postmortem, he called the third-party condition "a meaningless distraction" for players who should otherwise be considered town.

[Shale]

Bah, hit post before I meant to.

So either Alex's philosophy on third parties has changed since then, or "good townies" would have lynched Kilganode as soon as one of them confessed to having a survival condition, and cost themselves two anti-scum votes in the process. Or that was intended to be a vanishingly rare situation that would never come up again and which we should ignore as precedent.

[Luther Lansfeld]

##UNVOTE: Andrew Right, I forgot about Kilganode's role being third-party!

[VySaika]

Alright, a Cor post is here. First, I'll remove the pressure vote ##Unvote:Corwin.

Now to look over the cases at hand. Firstly, it seems that we have 4 people to look over today. Nitori and Corwin, obviously, Andrew, and OK. I'll start with OK here.

OK: Confirmed Watcher. His alignment is not confirmed, we have had a Scum Watcher before folks, keep that in mind. But his role is now without question. Both Nitori and Corwin have posted to confirm that they did indeed act on Evil Tom night 1, and OK could not have this information without being a watcher. Now, I think he's almost certainly town, as well. He could very well be playing puppet master and trying to get both townie nitori and townie corwin lynched, but I don't think that's all that likely. It's far more likely that either Cor or Nitori is lying. So, them next.

Nitori: First to claim in response to OK's watcher call out, and claims doc. Then proceeds to throw wierdness into the mix with his "I could be a quack doc!" claim. Before that, he's been lurky, which is standard Nitori behaviour as well as standard Doc behavior. Problem is, it's also standard Scum behaviour. Other then that...nothing overly much stands out about Nitori. He's mostly been lurkerish and me-tooing.

Corwin: Also claims doc in response to OK's watcher call out, but dismisses the idea of being an insane doc of any sort as he is also claiming limited uses. Behaviour wise he has been very very notable for one thing. An adamant stance against "role fishing" and by extention, unessesary roleclaiming. He's been hard on Andy, weilding accusations of role fishing, and has gotten into it with Tai as well over the same issue. He most certainly has not been afraid to mix it up with folks despite his odd hours. Now, this doesn't fit well with a doc role, as doc are usually lurky and not wanting to draw attention to themselves. However, considering Cor's stance against role fishing and unessesary claiming, it would follow that he would try to avoid the usual power role tells. Being such a useful role as a doc would also give him more then enough reason to come down so hard on power role speculation/fishing/etc, while I'd kneejerk that scum wouldn't do a thing to stifle such conversation. Townie speculation is good for them, after all. Of course, this is all a form of WIFOM as Cor isn't dumb and scum need to take strong townie stances such as Anti-Rolefishing as camoflague. Bleh. Still, even considering that, he looks better then Nitori does to me.

Andrew: And here we have Mr. Might Be A Third Party But We Don't Really Know. The immunity to night actions makes his alignment impossible to be sure of, sadly, and we have this immunity being confirmed by OK and Corwin. And to a lesser extent Nitori, who thinks he may have tried to kill Andy by quacking at him. Alright, so this leaves us looking at his behaviour and other claims. First, his claims. He claims one shot of kill, one shot of kill evasion, total night action immunity beyond killing, and some mysterious powers that he can't talk about under threat of Wrath of Mod. Alright, sounds...uh...a whole lot like Grefter's role from WoT mafia. Who was third party and managed to win. But WoT didn't also include such things as an uninformed Supercop, a miller with other sekrit powars, and whatever the hell that homemade Illusionist was. The setup of this game is obviously Not Your Average Mafia, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Andy is in fact town aligned even with all of that. Now his behaviour. Well, it's been very focused on keeping himself alive, and even though that's a standard sign of a third party/scum, it's also the sign of a town power role, particulary a powerful one who could concievably turn the tide at a later point. In short, eh. I concede that it's entirely possible, and even easily believable. I'm just not as convinced as you are, Alex. I think Nitori/Corwin is more pressing, as we've got good odds of nailing non-town there, we just need to figure out which is which.

Although...

There is no reason why Corwin/Nitori can't wait till tomorrow.  Indeed another night would give Nitori another chance to prove/disprove/generate more data on his role.  If he says he's a quack or killdoc, essentially vig once this is realized, and he thinks Cor's scum, have him try to protect/kill Cor and see what happens.  At worst, no new data.

This...this is tempting. Giving nitori a night to prove his quackyness would certainly give us more information. Thing is, if Nitori is scum, this might well cost us our Doc in the process, so I'm not sure it's as good a plan as it seems. Anyone else want to weigh in on this idea?

Keeping my vote to myself for the time being.

[Yakumo]

By the way, why is Corwin's claim any better?  It's the EXACT SAME, including targets, except Corwin claims a limit. 

[VySaika]

If they were both townies, which Alex has raised as a possibility, then what happened to the scum NK that night?  This has not been accounted for, and unless someone fesses up and explains that a protection occurred, I'm forced to conclude that the scum NK was on Tom.  Ergo, it was one of Corwin or Nitori.

If they're both townies, the only thing I can think of to explain it is OK as a scum watcher who dropped the names of everyone who went to see Tom night one except his scumbuddy who did the kill. And that's a hell of a stretch when compared to the simple answer of "Nitori or Cor is Scum". Impossible, no. Not in this game, certainly. Likely? Also, no. Not even in this game.

[Shale]

Yakko: The main difference I can see is that Nitori doesn't claim to have hit night-action immunity when he targeted Andrew. Depending on how the mod treats doctoring and night-action immunity that proves that he's either a Quack (or, in other words, a vigilante with a false role PM) or lying.

[Shale]

...and because I realize that post implies that Corwin is telling the truth when he says he hit night action immunity, I should amend that. Either Nitori is a quack, in which case both stories could theoretically be true or one of them is very definitely completely scum.

[Yakumo]

Corwin didn't say that either, you know.  He said he's sure he's real because of the limit, which in this game I wouldn't be sure of anyway, and blames the immunity for night 2's failure.  He said nothing about any message about hitting it, and this doesn't explain how night one's kill happened.  Nitori would have to be the scum's docbust for that, and it had to be limited to one charge and Andrew has to be un-docable or Corwin's story doesn't fit.  Then again, these roles make it hard to be sure.

[Shale]

Just my luck that scum have (had?) something goddamn more powerful than an Impossible Request to counter me with Tom, and that Andrew is lolimmune to all night actions. I'd thank Andrew for making me waste one needlessly, when I could've targetted someone else instead, but yeah. I clearly am not going to live long enough to spend all five anyhow, so it's moot.

I read that as saying that he hit immunity when acting on Andrew.

[Yakumo]

I read that as an assumption, he really wasn't specific on how he knew.  Or a clever lie.  Then again, I've always kinda thought of docs as acting against the killer, since usually the character being protected doesn't know it unless the killer tried to kill them, which may be clouding my judgement a bit.

[Kilgamayan]

Let's Play Danmaku Detective Game! Vote Count:

Tonfa (1): Halbarad
Corwin (3): Yakumo, Nitori, Gatewalker, Yakumo, El Cideon[/b]
AndrewRogue (1): Otter, Ran, Ciato
Alex/Ran (1): AndrewRogue
Ciato (2): Shale, OblivionKnight
Nitori (5): Otter, Carthrat, Smodge, Corwin, Tonfa

Love Count:

Chen (2): Yukari, Ran
Everybody (1): Taishyr
Marisa (2): Arisu, Ran
QuietRain (1): OblivionKnight

Discipline Count:

Ran (1): Yukari

With 16 people still alive, 9 votes is a majority.

About 7.25 hours to go, so you better make up your minds soon. If people want to start sending me night actions, that'd be great, but with so much time left in the day and new happenings to mull over I understand if you need some time.

Also, a couple of extra points:

---

Andrew may need to drop out for personal reasons. If any of you with any interest left in this game that know someone that might also be interested, let them know (I'll probably mod kill him otherwise but we'll see what happens).

---

I've received complaints today about the attitudes put forth in this game (stuff I've noticed myself), not in terms of play but in terms of personal interaction, so I guess I need to say something. Be mad at me all you like after today's events, but there's no reason to get snippy with each other over them (or over anything at all). If you find yourself getting angry enough to lash out at another player for out-of-game reasons you need to calm the hell down, because that's not what we're about.

Argue with each other all you like, just don't be dicks about it, okay?

[Ranmilia]

Whee back.

Bah, hit post before I meant to.

So either Alex's philosophy on third parties has changed since then, or "good townies" would have lynched Kilganode as soon as one of them confessed to having a survival condition, and cost themselves two anti-scum votes in the process. Or that was intended to be a vanishingly rare situation that would never come up again and which we should ignore as precedent.

All of the above.  That role (pair of roles, actually) was a trap to make them behave somewhat antitown and get good townies (which I honestly didn't expect many of, that being the first DL game with heavy roles) to lynch them if they fully roleclaimed the survival condition.  I have been regretting a lot of the nonstandard things I did in that game ever since.  (See also:  Use of Beloved Princess and SK triggers in setups, mods not flipping roles...)  Hinode/Kilga should have been lynched, from the town perspective, as their condition might cause them to play in antitown ways.  To wit, if it came to LYLO with more than one scum left, they should vote for a scum win, since they'd technically be alive and win when the scum hit majority.  I didn't consider this very thoroughly back then.

This is, again, not terribly relevant to Andrew in any case, since he's already been playing antitown.

Gate:  OK is not confirmed anything.  The presence of *a* watcher is confirmed.  If OK is scum, he or any other scum could be the watcher.  Assuming 'our doc' is one of Nitori and Cor, scum know which, so they're pretty much dead anyhow. 

Cor's claim.  Mrf.  Equal footing with Nitori.  I don't think the 5 use limit means anything one way or the other.  The only difference between their two claims is that Cor says he hit night action immunity, while Nitori does not, and thinks he may have been responsible for the kill attempt on Andrew... yes?

Occam's Razor therefore says that Nitori is indeed a killer and the scum out of the pair, since him not being scum involves improbable assumptions about the scum kills overlapping or vanishing somehow.  But that's only IF Cor is telling the truth, unless someone else can confirm what happens when Andrew's targeted with a night action.

So... yeah.  I'm back to 50/50 on those two and staying on Andrew.

[Taishyr]

Uh... I can... I can say it's likely OK has the Watcher role. If he doesn't, I know who does, which would make them, uh, likely both scum, no? So. (Meanwhile, if OK's watcher I know nothing about the other person. Thus why I'm not bringing them into the spotlight.)

Meanwhile, I'm busy compiling a post from hell. Let's just say I'm thinking Nitori is the scum (and am admittedly more willing to risk him), but I'm wondering if either are scum, which is dangerous I know but both could be telling the truth and the actions make sense... except then we have no clue where the **** the Mafia kill is. Which is why I lean Nitori as the scum. Chisa, I think it was, raised most of my problems with him in day 2, I'll fish those out again in a bit, and while I find Corwin's method of attack against Andrew both unwarranted and illogical (you'll remember I yelled at him over this day 2)... both the form of the attack and the reasoning... could it be made up? Maybe, but it would have been easier to just snipe at the flaws than dedicating himself to the attack, so I'm inclined to say pass here.

Also wondering what Shale/Otter think, but I'm a lot of pages behind due to having none of these posts penetrate my thick skull so I'm sitting here wondering what I'm missing.

Still reading, will do one final post and then I badly need to sleep, spent most of today in RP and wondering why the bloody blazes the forum wouldn't load.

[Taishyr]

Oh, and since I haven't put my stance:

I'm relooking over Andrew right now. I may land my vote on him instead of Nitori, but if there is a modkill uhh I'm inclined not to waste a lynch if at all possible. I dunno, that's a partial reason why I stay my hand here.

[Ranmilia]

Wait a tic.  I forgot that we *do* have OK confirming a failure message on Andrew.  Suspicion of Nitori...  jumping.