Author Topic: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic  (Read 121687 times)

Carthrat

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #175 on: January 18, 2008, 01:44:41 PM »
So who has been lurking more? Instead of giving vauge advice, you could put down some names. Strago springs to mind, as does Ciato... I can't say I'm too thrilled about it. But.

There's little reason, at this point, to think you're going to be of more assistance to town than someone else. The tone of your latest posts just seem so scummy. You've flipped from one extreme (haranguing Otter in almost every post) to really passive 'ok I'll be good, please don't lynch me' play, and although you want to see someone else get lynched, you've given town very little direction as to where to go.

And you're saying stuff like 'If I'm scum, then I'm likely to slip up soon'. I've been able to read into small things people say before in terms of how they phrase it, and this kind of hypothetical is a minor but still notable mark against you.

I don't think there's much else I can say that Yakumo and Hal and others haven't already in terms of your OMGUSing, exploding (imploding?) etc. You've generated conversation, but it's almost all been about you! I do feel some other people have acted a bit oddly today, but until I see your flip, I'm wary of persuing these trains of thought.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Dread Thomas
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EvilTom

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #176 on: January 18, 2008, 01:58:23 PM »
...

-2 then... roleclaim time.

I'm the cop.
Going to lynch me? :(
To what end.. ugh..
Claim may as well be too late now though, i've played badly and it's probably too late.
So... i guess it doesn't matter.
Scum will get me even if you guys don't.
Get your votes in our out now, i guess.
Me?  strago or something. eh.

>_>   zzzzzz
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EvilTom

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #177 on: January 18, 2008, 02:01:02 PM »
Oh, and I should make an attempt to save myself. ##Vote Strago
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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #178 on: January 18, 2008, 02:01:06 PM »
Let's Play Danmaku Detective Game! Vote Count:

Taishyr (0): Shale
Otter (1): Strago, Yakumo, Taishyr, OblivionKnight, Halbarad, Gatewalker, EvilTom
Shale (0): Yakumo
Yakumo (0): Gatewalker
Strago (6): Nitori, patchcloud, Gatewalker, AndrewRogue, El Cideon, EvilTom, Anonymous
Gatewalker (0): QuietRain
AndrewRogue (0): Sir Alex, Corwin, Chisa, Gatewalker, QuietRain, patchcloud
Nitori (0): El Cideon, Yakumo
Corwin (0): Halbarad, Carthrat
Smodge13 (0): EvilTom, Carthrat, Tonfa
El Cideon (0): Chisa
EvilTom (9): Smodge13, Ran, Otter, QuietRain, Corwin, Halbarad, Chisa, Yakumo, Tonfa, Carthrat
Chisa (0): Tonfa
Ciato (0): patchcloud
OblivionKnight (0): El Cideon
QuietRain (0): AndrewRogue
Tonfa (2): OblivionKnight, Ciato

Love Count:

Chen (2): Ran, Yukari
Strago (0): OblivionKnight
Everyone (1): Taishyr
Work-Interrupting Snow (1): El Cideon
Mokou (1): Kaguya
Ran (1): Yukari
Nitori (1): Nitori

With 21 people alive, it takes 11 votes to lynch.

~10.5 hours to go.

For those folks that need to, if you want to start sending me night actions, you can, as I have to go to work and won't be back until about an hour before deadline.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 02:02:38 PM by Kilgamayan »


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Strago

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #179 on: January 18, 2008, 02:19:02 PM »
Well I was trawling through the topic to try and formulate some opinions, but it looks like there's some things I need to respond to pretty immediately. First of all... if you're really the Cop, Tom, you need to learn to chill out a bit on Day 1. There's a fine line between lurking and sticking your neck way the hell out there that a Cop particularly needs to figure out how to straddle. So...

...  there's an anonymous vote on me now as well, eh? Well that right there is pretty interesting. Off the top of my head, three possibilities come to mind.

A) Tom is both a Cop and a Doublevoter.
B) Tom is a doublevoter of uncertain alignment, flagrantly lying about his Copness.
C) There's another doublevoter among us who is trying to get me lynched.

A seems extremely unlikely, but only because it would be, y'know, weird. I have more respect for Tom than to assume that B is the case. C is actually obvious, I sort of misspoke when I said "possibilities."

Y'know, I had some stuff typed out and was just about to dive into an analysis of who the Doublevoter is, but then I stepped back for a second and decided not to. I mean, the doublevote is traditionally a Town role in DL games at this point, and until I see that "Anonymous" vote doing something I consider significantly scummier I think I'm going to let a sleeping dog lie. After all, I've been inactive and am a fairly sensible lynch right now, for all that I'd rather not die a silly Day 1 death. Yeah, at the moment I'm plenty happy with not doing scum's work for them.

The one thing I will say is that my first thought was "huh, maybe doublevote is trying to make Tom look like a liar here," but then I noticed that there was a vote update about three minutes after Tom's vote. So that's either a very sneaky, patient scum vote, or a scum vote given to Kilga with a conditional trigger. These things aren't impossible, but neither do they suggest Tom being cleared as was one of my initial impulses.

Bleh. Tom's the freaking Cop? Mrfff. Now I'll go back and look over the topic some more.

Carthrat

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #180 on: January 18, 2008, 02:24:00 PM »
An anonymous vote appeared on Strago at the same time Dread Thomas voted. I find this odd, but it probably doesn't belong to him with the way GMs seem to favour staggered doublevoting, or however it is they do it. (And it'd just be so *dumb* to roleclaim one thing when you have another role like that so obviously.)

In any case, who is willing to give him credit for a day? I kind of don't want to, as his day one play was just.. really reckless, especially for someone with such a potentially useful role, and nor was that exactly a stirring defence.

Oh, and a question that should be answered in light of this...

Mod: Do roles flip on death?

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Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #181 on: January 18, 2008, 02:26:01 PM »
Mod: Do roles flip on death?

In name and alignment, yes.

Notice: If hammer drops while I'm at work, sit tight and I'll do quickie no-story update as soon as I get back.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #182 on: January 18, 2008, 02:39:25 PM »
x_x I just got up.

Tom: ...omfg. I'll just say similar to what I said in WoT mafia... If you're the fucking cop, why draw negative attention and votes to yourself? -___-;;

Strago: If Tom was a double voter, wouldn't his double vote have shown when he vote for smodge earlier?

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #183 on: January 18, 2008, 02:50:53 PM »
Yes, probably! I hadn't thought about it, but that's another good reason to assume that Tom's not the doublevoter here.

Bigger post in the works.

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #184 on: January 18, 2008, 02:56:13 PM »
Just caught up on the topic.

Re: Tom:

If you're the cop... why are you going so berserk on day 1? Patchy said it best; if you're a role that's so strongly helpful to town, why draw this kind of negative attention before you can even do anything productive? Yeah, I can believe that you generally do play like this, but that doesn't change what I said in my vote post - this kind of overreaction is anything but helpful to the town.

For myself, I'm not inclined to believe the claim, due to the rapid reversals you've shown the entire day. Even if you ARE telling the truth, I'm at least of the opinion that we can pull this off even without a cop, if need be.

And the third point is one of practicality: Who else has a reasonable case against them at this point, that we could consolidate on a lynch for before the end of the day? Yes, we have a few lurkers like Ciato/Nitori/Strago, but speaking for myself I'd rather go after a suspect that's actively playing in a bad manner for town before going after those who are hurting town by inactivity. It's quite possible - even likely - that one of our lurkers is scum, but as long as you're out there creating a furor - which from your past history seems pretty likely - it makes them even easier to just delurk, drop in a quick agreement with the case that the more active townies are making against you, and slip back into the shadows.

So yeah, what I said earlier: I'm not convinced you're scum, but I -am- convinced you've been hurting town, and if everyone's reports of your past activity are accurate, you'll continue to do so. That's enough for a day 1 lynch for me.
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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #185 on: January 18, 2008, 03:17:49 PM »
Okay, so. Off the top of my head and a relatively quick read of the topic, Andrew and Quietrain first catch my eye. QR first of all for this:

EDIT: And Smodge posts while I was typing that.  I'll be honest, if you have so little faith in your abilities as scum that you feel the need to resort to a tactic like that, then you've no business signing up for this game in the first place.  (And I'm using the generic 'you' there, not directed at anyone)  The whole point is analysis and deductive reasoning.  Hacking defeats the purpose.

Granted, I see any negative response to Smodge's idea of changing your account name to be indulging in a fairly big ol' smokescreen. Because seriously, that would never work and everybody knows it. QR also just happened to respond in a tone that got my hackles up for one reason or another.

Then there's this from Andrew:

I am surprised to see six pressure votes suddenly roll in while I actually can't respond. Three of them of them before Otter had a vote (who had, comparatively, no posts, excuses or not). So I'm outright going to theorize that there is scum in that train, plain and simple. As such...

##Vote: QuietRain

Third on the train, voted for me as a lurker, gave no particular reasoning (although one can make general assumptions about it), excuses Otter for not being here but doesn't consider I may well not have been active on the boards either. Also forgets to bold it, which is sneaky-sneaky :p.

This seems like a pretty darn big leap to make so early on. It takes eleven to lynch, dude, and those were all pretty sensible votes on you to get you to stop lurking. Hell, I've got more votes sitting on me now and I'm not entirely convinced that there's scum in that train. That being said I'm writing this part of my post only halfway through my scouring of the topic, so by the end of my post his could be different. Point is, though, you've got an OMGUS* vote on QR here for some pretty weak reasoning, as far as I can tell. There's a lot of that flying around in this game, it seems.

*Did I use that term correctly? I've always been just a tad hazy on it.

Okay, as far as the Traditional Tom-related Day 1 Clusterfuck goes, maybe it's a result of entering near the end of it and not having had the (dis?)advantage of participating or even just observing it as it grew, but I come down more on Tom's side than most seem to do. He... seems to be trying. Even though his targeting of Otter is pretty retaliatory, I agree with the sentiment that Tom's grammar comment wouldn't have amounted to a hill of beans if Otter hadn't come along and put pressure on it. And assuming they are both town, which is my gut response - as always - to these sorts of Day 1 things, then Otter's posts have accomplished exactly what he says he was trying to prevent. Which is to say, a huge rift between townies.

Around Page 11, people start leaping up to vote Tom, the mantra being "well even if he isn't scum, he's playing terribly!" Now I agree that this kind of albatross can be harmful to the town (see Super in FFTMafia for a shining example), but it also gives scum a beautiful and plausibly deniable excuse to vote for a townie. Of particular note here...

Chisa: Actually provides the best reasoning for (his? her? hir?) vote, so despite the timing it doesn't look too terrible to me.

Hal: Had been lurking quite a bit (pot kettle black, I know), then comes in and in a longish post says almost nothing new and ends with a vote for Tom for the sorts of reasons I've mentioned above. It's hardly damning, but I found myself raising an eyebrow so I thought I'd note it.

Yakumo: A brief and pretty dang inflammatory post ending with a vote against Tom. This is the kind of stuff Otter is talking about, I believe. It's only Day 1, man. Let's try and keep a cool head (and rabbit ears!) on our collective shoulders, yeah?

And then we pretty much move on to the later votes against me, which... look relatively clean, I guess. Apart from Tom and the Anonymous, that's only four votes and they've all said little/nothing besides "lurker, speak!" And that makes sense. Not much else for me to go on, there. I notice that Andrew is on the list, which doesn't look great when I consider that I suspected him earlier in the topic as well. Not much else of note, though.

So I pretty much need to decide what it is I think of Tom, here. Sigh. The cop claim really does clinch it for me, I think, because it's so damn easy for scum to fake, not to mention we just came off a large multi-Cop game, so even if Tom is a scum liar any real Cop might not think it was necessarily a fake claim. Yeah, bugger all, I just don't know. This really could be a Superesque situation tomorrow, though, and that messed with FFTMafia so bad that I really don't want another taste of it. That and we've only got, what, 9.5 hours until deadline? With all our different schedules and timezones I'd be worries about trying to organize any other lynch that remotely made sense -- and I'm not going to be bashful about the fact that this is especially true because I seem like a prime #2 target, with a bunch of votes already sitting on me. I see little sense in letting the only person I know is a townie get sent to the gibbet.

##VOTE: EvilTom

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #186 on: January 18, 2008, 03:48:06 PM »
People are accusing me of lurking, but frankly, what's there to comment on? I've played in numerous games with Tom. He does the exact same thing in pretty much every game. It's not a scumtell. It's not -not- a scumtell either. Analyzing his behavior in an attempt to try to link it to scumminess is an exercise in futilely. If he is scum this time it will be a case of "That was lucky!" rather than frue scum hunting skillz because he has been lynched for the same reason several other times and has turned town. The case seems tenous at best like they usually do on Day 1, but it's hard to generate content out of the clear blue sky. The idea that Tom is using this as a smokescreen is borderline laughable since he's just... well... him. Not supporting his lynch, really. The three votes in three posts alarms me terribly, just gives me a bad feeling, nothing substantive. Tom really needs to stop overreacting to minor things though and keep his cool a bit better regardless.

The six votes on Andrew was 'only halfway to lynch', Strago? Being halfway to lynch seems like a reason for alarm, as it means that likely someone is trying to push that train into a greater train, and six people is a pretty big number for a guy who hasn't really lurked tooo much except for the fact that it's Day 1. I really don't like this train at all, buuuut it's hard to discern who is scummy based on this alone, so I will just shut my trap on this for now.

In short, Tom is being Tom and lurker votes are very wait and see since pattern establish = good before attacking others.
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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #187 on: January 18, 2008, 04:01:07 PM »
Like Ciato says, what is there really to talk about? I also agree entirely with Rat's post on the previous page, that the conversation Tom boasts of generating is centered entirely on Tom himself.

Is he scum? I suppose it wouldn't be impossible that he's trying for what Super did in NR in an effort to get the real cop to claim. It does seem unlikely given Tom's just being his usual Tom self, as I've noted previously... but we haven't really seen him play scum, so he could be acting the same way while playing for the other team, too. I feel it foolish to dismiss the possibility entirely.

Is he town? Even Tom agrees in his later posts that he had been playing badly. His defense of himself is also rather lukewarm. If Tom is town, the feeling I get is that Tom is playing for Team Tom, not Team Town. Does that justify pruning? In Discworld, it was a difficult call for me between going after bad play and lurking, when no scumtells of note existed. But I don't see us acting effectively if Tom is there to generate yet more of this conversation, actually drawing attention from lurkers and even, to a degree, people who aren't engaged in a discussion (argument?) with him. I don't want to see a repeat of day 1 the next day.

My vote stands.

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #188 on: January 18, 2008, 04:04:04 PM »
...wow, I thought that was hammer and completely gave up on putting a post together. I can say right now that I'm not going to put the boot in (Me not jumping on a Day 1 lynch? Shock and horror.), but I haven't done any real analysis so far and I should. So I'll get to work on that.
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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #189 on: January 18, 2008, 04:05:51 PM »
I wake up, and Tom's claimed cop.  Argh.  Echoing Hal here, if you're the cop, you ought to at least be a little more careful and try to stay alive long enough to investigate.  But I don't believe it.  The Anonymous vote worries me, but what really pings me is your quick un-Tomlike retraction of the Otter case...only a few posts after you said removing your vote from Otter would make you look even more scummy.  And it does, especially with the extra contradiction.  Vote stays.
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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #190 on: January 18, 2008, 04:27:36 PM »
asdf chinanet.

Okay. Reread of the topic, ...EvilTom -again-? hjklhlhjk. What the hell.

Upon reading: EvilTom, Otter: EvilTom's post here raises all the major problems I have with Otter's -initial- impetus to vote. To me, Otter's post feels like an overreaction to a slightly pushy comment. EvilTom, from there, has raised a few problematic posts, but... the reactions to him feel like an "eh best option" thing, which makes me balk instinctively, despite it being day 1. In other words, it really feels like a mountain of molehill situation. This being said... gut tells me Otter is just picking up on what he found most suspicious and running with it. Mrfgh. This all feels like a null tell on Otter/EvilTom, and so I'm really trying to look through who chose to jump on EvilTom for it. There's just.... kyargh, he really doesn't look that bad to me. Defensive? Yeah. Defensive has proven to not be a scum tell of his, but rather a trait; and you can either keep lynching him for it until he corrects it (protip: getting people to change a large function of personality is like getting Chinanet working, lol no.) or you could realize that it's not actually a scum tell and keep looking. It's... not even playing badly so much as it is playing defensively. You can yell at me re: this in the discussion topic if you want. The one part that I -do- keep tripping over of his is the unvote from Otter after saying it'll make you look bad. Stick to guns if you believe yourself right, but also remember: repeating points over and over doesn't help much (this also looks at Otter constantly repeating the comments toward EvilTom; both sides seem to have helped inflame each other, which is why this really rings as a townie fight).

Gut's screaming town, head's unsure on Tom: Otter gets a vague "eh, fine for now" from both.

I'm trying to digest a few of the posts of people voting for him a bit more coherently, but this may take more time than we have, damnit. Gently caress Chinanet.

Strago case: Votes on a lurker who is no longer lurking. 'k.

##Unvote: Otter
##Vote: Shale

General lurker pressure vote. If deadline looms, I will vote to lynch EvilTom on the principle of, you know, actually lynching instead of deadlining; but I disagree with the case fairly greatly.

Catch: Never mind, Shale posted.

##Vote: Nitori I want to see you post more. As much as this is a pot-calling-kettle moment, I want to know what you're thinking at this point re: the continued pressure on EvilTom + Strago's posts (since he is now, in point of fact, posting).

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #191 on: January 18, 2008, 04:48:08 PM »
Tom thoughts:

A cop roleclaim from Tom...that is on his impending lynch and is highly dubious as a result. I don't think I need to say anymore on how playing this way as a cop is a bad thing~. It's certainly the most predominant case right now, but I can't help but feel a little iffy about it.

Also, ##UNVOTE: Strago. The boxed rabbit is back, which means that this vote now serves no purpose. I'd end the day here, but Shale has promised an analysis of sorts, and I should be around for most of today anyway.
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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #192 on: January 18, 2008, 04:59:46 PM »
I didn't completely keep up on the other games Tom played, but going by, "Tom is being Tom so we should just let him be Tom" or something seems silly. When he says he has some useful role like cop, then why is he still "being Tom"? Does he not get the thing about how town is playing to win and his power role is useful and could help the town to uncover scum and win? "Team Tom" indeed. I don't think its an intentional smokescreen/distraction. I get the feeling he was genuinely irritated and got defensive and argued to hell with Otter, and then with... everyone else. But reacting like that is just no good, and an un-intentional distraction is as dangerous because it's taking away focus from other people. I mean, whether a distraction meant to distract or not, the focus being turned away from others just a result of it. Like... Taishyr is playing? Wow crap I completely forgot he exists thanks to Team Tom's epic argument and attention draw. -_o Actually, if I thought someone was lurking yesterday night, I probably completely forgot it by now. I am very tempted to hammer Tom right now because his distraction is irritating, but I understand that people would like to hear from other people before the game day is up. Blah.

To people who don't think lynching Tom is a good idea, if this is what day 1 is like with his overreactive-ness, then what do you imagine day 2+ would be like? 'Cause part of the reason why I'd like to vote on him is that I think he would cause the same troubles on other days.

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #193 on: January 18, 2008, 05:02:59 PM »
Oif. So Tom is claiming cop, huh? This...eh, my first inclination is to not belive him, as the last person I saw claim cop under pressure on day 1 was Carthrat in an IRC mafia where he was, in fact, scum. It got enough people to pull off of him that a townie, and someone who is usually a fairly strong townie(ciato) was lynched in his stead. If that happened here, it would be Strago from the votecount. Well, as my vote was purely a "speak foul lurker!" vote and not because I actually find him scummier then anyone else, I'll go ahead and do my part about his votecount and ##Unvote:Strago

On the other claw, it's entirely possible that Tom is telling the truth and was trying not to make anyone suspicious by playing differently then he normally does. Is so, that was probably not the best idea considering his playstyle, but a good idea in theory at least. Geh. I'm thinking in circles now, because my head is playing connect the dots with Tom's behavior and telling me that this is a desperation move to save himself, but my gut is saying that he's being honest and just trying in the best way he knows how. I'll think on this a bit longer, for now, I guess.

Re: anon vote. Yeah, I'm rather sure it's not Tom. Who it is though...no idea. And like Strago said, doublevoting has been a traditional townrole in the past, so let's not do the scum's work for them. This could very well be a scum move, but Strago isn't in any noticable danger at the moment, not compared to Tom anyway, so if it is a scum move it's likely designed to try and confuse folks and get an "OMG ANON!!?!?!" reaction like the anon voting in FFT did originially. So I think the best thing to do with that at the moment is make note it exists and move on.

So back to EvilTom, huh? Bleh. I'm really not liking this whole situation, but...in the end I think I'm better off going with my head then my gut. So...Annoucing Intent To Hammer

Tom, you want to make any last posts here? If you do flip town, some parting words from someone who's confirmed may be helpful in the future, you know?

Shale, I'm planning on giving you time to make your analysis, of course. If you've got somethign to say, there no sense in not giving you the chance to say it. This goes for anyone else who's still waiting to weigh in as well, of course.
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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #194 on: January 18, 2008, 05:14:28 PM »
The six votes on Andrew was 'only halfway to lynch', Strago? Being halfway to lynch seems like a reason for alarm, as it means that likely someone is trying to push that train into a greater train, and six people is a pretty big number for a guy who hasn't really lurked tooo much except for the fact that it's Day 1. I really don't like this train at all, buuuut it's hard to discern who is scummy based on this alone, so I will just shut my trap on this for now.

Idiot reading comprehension on my part, which is what I get for trying too rapidly to crank out a post; I missed the "six pressure votes" part of his post and saw that QR was "third on the train," and thought he had three votes on him. Apparently I'm an idiot. Still, I maintain that despite my flub it wasn't all that much to worry about or justify that kind of OMGUS; they were votes to get him to talk, he talked, and they backed off. That being said, the somewhat larger number of them does make the train look worse. How much worse, I'm not exactly sure. Thanks for smacking me upside the head for that one, Ciato.

Shale

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #195 on: January 18, 2008, 05:17:24 PM »
In general, the speed with which trains have gathered steam in this game is pretty disconcerting. I said before that I don't think tom's initial grammar comment was worth a vote, and the whole thing seems to have spiraled from there. Him being overly defensive and attracting attention for it is not exactly breaking news, but...seriously this much of a shitstorm springing from one vote? Sadly that's not unexpected with someone as aggressive as Otter butting heads with Tom in full defense mode.

The only argument I've seen that points to Tom being scum, as opposed to Tom being the all-time champion of lightning-rod players, is this:

Dread Thomas, you said
Quote from: Dread Thomas
I hate the whole "stop acting like scum" thing, it's just an excuse for.. argh I'd better not start ranting.
But you've also said
Quote from: Dread Thomas
I'm keeping my vote on Smodge, until he says/does something that isn't scummy.
. See, this is a scumtell: You're losing track of your previous position and contradicting yourself later down the line without a justification.

But even that is drawing on a mostly (if not completely) joking vote against smodge as part of the contradiction. Other than that, it's the typical overreaction to people voting for him. Beyond that? This feels like PW, where I gave Nitori a pass for being Nitori and he turned out to be scum, but the only thing I'm seeing Tom do that's really out of character is apologize for lashing out, and if I want him to play better in the future, I don't feel like yelling at him for that.

That said, I don't know what to make of the cop claim. Obviously the timing is suspect, and if he is a cop I'd like to take a mallet to his nose for putting one of our most important roles on the chopping block, but I had that exact reaction to him in PW, where he was the cop.

Either way, what this whole thing has been is a highly effective smokescreen. There's a myriad of decent reasons to vote Tom, ranging from "he's the one giving off the most tells" to Hal's "he'll make an effective smokescreen for scum," any of which scum could affect and look fine doing it. I'm getting more suspicious of "LYNCH FOR BAD PLAY" voting as I play more games, though, because it's so rarely caught scum.

And on the other hand, the Strago train looks odd because, while it's certainly valid from LAL, Strago's not the only person who should be getting votes for that; he was lurking, sure, but blocks of people voting for the same person with no compelling reason to focus like that always strikes me as off, and there were other people to pressure if you just want to pressure a lurker - me, for one. And, looking over the other posts, the person I'm going to throw my vote at as well:

##Vote Patchcloud

All of her posts in the serious phase have been restating what's happened lately in a few generalizing lines, saying she's not sure what to make of it, and occasionally throwing a semi-random vote out (which has always been retracted later). It's probably too late for today, especially with Gate's ninja post announcing the impending hammer, but talk more when the sun rises again.
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Corwin

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #196 on: January 18, 2008, 05:37:55 PM »
Quote
I'm getting more suspicious of "LYNCH FOR BAD PLAY" voting as I play more games, though, because it's so rarely caught scum.

Shale, that just might be because it's not the immediate intent of this. Sure, sometimes scum really do play badly and we catch them that way. Great. But more often than not, it eliminates bad play from the equation, and we're back to seeking out scum without distractions, smokescreens and diversions. Also, as long as bad players remain in the game, I keep on thinking, "What if they're actual scumtells this time? What if he's really scummy?" and it diverts my attention. Am I really the only one that happens to?

There has been much talk over day 1, but how useful is any of it with the way conversation had centered around Tom? If that persists into day 2 and on, how is that not a disadvantage to town?

Quote
And on the other hand, the Strago train looks odd because, while it's certainly valid from LAL, Strago's not the only person who should be getting votes for that; he was lurking, sure, but blocks of people voting for the same person with no compelling reason to focus like that always strikes me as off, and there were other people to pressure if you just want to pressure a lurker - me, for one.

I think this rather supports my point, actually. Yes, there have been lurkers. I was getting that feeling myself. But I couldn't really focus on any past Otter and Andrew early on, once the Tom/Otter fight took front stage. You, and a few others, including your target, ended up slipping below my radar in that time.

OblivionKnight

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #197 on: January 18, 2008, 05:44:09 PM »
...wow.  A lot happened in the 12 hours I was gone.

A cop roleclaim is...tough to think out.  On one hand, if he is a cop, it does kind of suck to lose him early.  On the other hand, like Hal, after seeing people work this out without a cop (either via deaths or not existing) in other games before, I think it can be done here.  Cop's a good claim for scum - especially if, like this, it's claimed as "COP"  

Not slowcop, not rolecop, not whatever else.  Just cop.

There's an important distinction here - if he claimed slowcop or any other particular cop, then there'd be plenty of room for thought and counter-claim and doubt.  But claiming just a cop is very...general.  There can be multiple cops in a game (an insane cop and a slow cop, for example), so just claiming cop is very safe.  If he had said sanecop and someone else was already a sane cop, then there'd be more room for doubt.

Not sure what I make of this.  If he is cop and not lynched (which...does not look like it will happen), it might be hard getting people to listen to and trust him later.  If he's not a cop and really a scum, this is a safe guise to hide behind (and hell, he could be a cop - a scumcop, see the previous paragraph).  

I think we can live without a cop if it comes down to it.  And since it's nearing the finale time, there's not much to make out of this.  Most of this has been screened with the dust storm that got brought up earlier.  Hard to tell where it lies.  

Oh.

##Unvote: Tonfa

I'm not sure where to fire a vote off to next.  Right now, it's hard to see beyond the storm.  There's not much else besides the storm at the moment I can see, and most people have been fairly addy with the convo.

[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Shale

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #198 on: January 18, 2008, 05:49:36 PM »
Quote
There's an important distinction here - if he claimed slowcop or any other particular cop, then there'd be plenty of room for thought and counter-claim and doubt.  But claiming just a cop is very...general.  There can be multiple cops in a game (an insane cop and a slow cop, for example), so just claiming cop is very safe.  If he had said sanecop and someone else was already a sane cop, then there'd be more room for doubt.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Slowcop/rolecop are much rarer variants than traditional cop (and also much less compelling defensive claims for scum to use, and rolecop in particular requires an actual power role to fake), and on day 1 no standard cop would know their sanity.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #199 on: January 18, 2008, 05:52:29 PM »
Quote
I'm getting more suspicious of "LYNCH FOR BAD PLAY" voting as I play more games, though, because it's so rarely caught scum.

Shale, that just might be because it's not the immediate intent of this. Sure, sometimes scum really do play badly and we catch them that way. Great. But more often than not, it eliminates bad play from the equation, and we're back to seeking out scum without distractions, smokescreens and diversions. Also, as long as bad players remain in the game, I keep on thinking, "What if they're actual scumtells this time? What if he's really scummy?" and it diverts my attention. Am I really the only one that happens to?

There has been much talk over day 1, but how useful is any of it with the way conversation had centered around Tom? If that persists into day 2 and on, how is that not a disadvantage to town?


Buuut the reason that it dominates discussion in all these games is because we allow it to. I think it's just as much 'bad play' to overreact to harmless things as anything. Step back and analyze just how scummy you think the person is instead of trying to cruicify them for minor mistakes. The fact that everyone takes what he says to this overblown level means that maybe we should take in account the personlities of the lynchee before we railroad them. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Of course, I am of the school of thought that keeping townies = good regardless, and I have no interest in lynching people who I don't think are scum.

Quote
And on the other hand, the Strago train looks odd because, while it's certainly valid from LAL, Strago's not the only person who should be getting votes for that; he was lurking, sure, but blocks of people voting for the same person with no compelling reason to focus like that always strikes me as off, and there were other people to pressure if you just want to pressure a lurker - me, for one.

I think this rather supports my point, actually. Yes, there have been lurkers. I was getting that feeling myself. But I couldn't really focus on any past Otter and Andrew early on, once the Tom/Otter fight took front stage. You, and a few others, including your target, ended up slipping below my radar in that time.

With 21 people, it's easy to fly below the radar, really. And easy to unintentionally do so! I think the selective focus also makes me leery, but I'm not sure if it's toward anyone in particular. My current vote stands, cursory post only isn't going to convince me of much of anything.

WARNING! WHILE YOU WERE TYPING A NEW REPLAY HAS BEEN POSTED! has already happened to me twice. ;_;
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