Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

[Corwin]

From what I understand from OP and Kilga's latter posts, there's no 'No Lynch' in this game. A tie would probably involve Hatbot deciding, which none of us want, but I see no suggestion of town winding up without a lynch. Of course, if I'm wrong, would Kilga be so kind as to correct me? This seems to be a factor in some people here making what I see as bad decisions, and could be eliminated altogether with a mod clarification for them (and us all).

[Nitori]

Generally if a vote is tied at deadline it goes into Sudden Death where the next person of all the people that are tied that receives a vote is lynched. Of course, Hatbot is a far easier solution to this, and I don't know what Kilga has planned besides his 'Phantom Vote' system.

Perhaps I should have elaborated on it a bit more, but I thought I at least had somewhat of a good reason to vote for Strago; one of his arguments against not buying the cop claim was in reference to the format of an entirely different game where there were a lot of cops, and I didn't think that was really a valid point to make for pushing a Tom lynch.

The reason that Chisa jumped out at me from every other train-hopper is that he was on every one of the notable day 1 trains with a 'grouped' opinion. Alex was also but had what appeared to be a jokevote on Andy that was removed before he acknowledged the reasons for the train.

The patchucloud seems to very quickly be picking up a lot of votes. While she doesn't have the best defense in the world for doing what it is she did, especially at 7-8 where she could just let it  stay like that, there seems to be a bit of reiteration in this train. Patchu's probably one of my second choices after Chisa, but this train doesn't make me feel that horribly great.

[Sierra]

Still waiting on Cid to justify his Strago vote near the end. Some kind of reason is required.

I did it because, philosophically, I don't believe a day should end without a majority vote. It's our duty to lynch, it's the only way we get answers, and letting the deadline be the cutoff sets a bad precedent that allows people to hang back and not comment without looking quite as bad as they would in a game with a no-lynch deadline. Given this belief, I had to vote for someone. Would it have looked better to you if I'd stayed out of a contentious two-way race? Now, as for why I picked Strago, in particular? If Alex's frequent reiterations of "Don't lynch a day one copclaim" aren't enough for you, I don't know what to say. Tom and Strago were the only candidates for a vote that mattered at the time, and losing Strago seemed less of a risk than losing a possible cop. Obviously Tom's flip makes me rethink this, but I'll get to that in a moment.

Haven't read past page nineteen yet, will have a vote once I'm caught up. Responding to Cor next.

[mia~]

From what I understand from OP and Kilga's latter posts, there's no 'No Lynch' in this game. A tie would probably involve Hatbot deciding, which none of us want, but I see no suggestion of town winding up without a lynch. Of course, if I'm wrong, would Kilga be so kind as to correct me? This seems to be a factor in some people here making what I see as bad decisions, and could be eliminated altogether with a mod clarification for them (and us all).

I noticed what he said in the o.p. but then he didn't really clarify anything about the event of a tie and I also got "?" ~ confused after Kilga brought up "Phantom Vote" thing.

[Chisa]

Hatbot may be far easier, but it's actually worse, because we can look at the specifics of a hammer or a Sudden Death vote and analyze it.  If we go to the bot, all town gets is a random lynch.  Hammers are both crucial town weapons and sources of information, and we need both if we're going to catch scum.

[Corwin]

I assume that was to me, Chisa? Yes, hammering is important. Hatbot wasn't mentioned as a desirable outcome, but to give an example of how a tie would be resolved rather than inviting 'no lynch'.

[Sierra]

On Cid's page 16 post. You and Ciato think that it's okay to just go along with 'that's just Tom', and before the flip, I might have been convinced. But would you still give him the same leeway in a future game you're with him, when he claims cop or another useful role? Would you lynch the people he fingers there, if allowed to live and 'investigate'? Maybe I started out as more jaded than you, but there's surely a time when merely letting bad play go and ignoring it becomes suicidal. Yes, I see that you've come to roughly the same conclusions in the second half of your post, Cid, but for some reason you find it within you to give Tom just one more chance. In a long line of one more chances.

I have a hard time going after the same person day one every game. In part because I'm a total softy...but I'm aware that doesn't mesh well with the whole Play to Win mentality and should be left at the door whenever I'm in one of these games.

After the flip? Well. Yeah, naturally I'm going to be more skeptical in the future--and I already doubted the claim (QR's musings on the aftershocks of the claim and cardflip make it abundantly clear how damaging such a lie can be. How seriously can we take such claims in future games now?). I did note that it was a convenient one for scum to make. I would not have advocated lynching anyone he fingered as scum simply to verify his claim, no. That's silly, and illustrates the potential difficulty and danger in verifying such a claim (one of the reasons I was skeptical of it in the first place).

I still don't feel bad about not voting for him. The entire mess that started it reeked of Town infighting

Anyway, enough talking about Tom. Day one was enough of a trainwreck, I don't want to get sidetracked here too. I need to go back and look over both votetrains once I'm caught up and decide which seems more likely to be a scumbus, because simple math means there had to be scum in one or the other.

[Chisa]

Actually, no.  It was in response to this:

Generally if a vote is tied at deadline it goes into Sudden Death where the next person of all the people that are tied that receives a vote is lynched. Of course, Hatbot is a far easier solution to this, and I don't know what Kilga has planned besides his 'Phantom Vote' system.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

[QuietRain]

Alllllrighty.  It's amazing how much better one can feel after medicating oneself into a come for 12 hours.    I've had a chance to go back and do some reading so I'm going to go ahead and lay out my thoughts now since it's the weekend and I'll prolly not be on as much as I am during the work week. And on a personal note, I worked on this blipping post for several hours and the forums went down a LOT during that time.  Most annoying.

QR: I don't understand how this is really morale-breaking. Scum killing a liar and someone who isn't a cop seems like basically the best scenario possible, morale wise. We didn't lose a major power role and the person who would have probably been lynched tomorrow got NKed.

Perhaps killing was a strong word there.  Maybe 'Now that our morale has had a nice kick to the gonads there' or something.  It's just that normally on the morning of Day 2, even if we lose 2 townies, we have this feeling that NOW we can do something.  We can dive in and analyze and get to rooting out the scum with some sense that we have something to go on.  But when everyone basically goes '...WTF!?!?', it just seems sort of like all the energy we could have had to go sleuthing scum went into wondering what Tom was on when he did that instead.

"Why vote Strago over Tom, especially at 7-8?"
...maybe to avoid a possible tie? I mentioned the 7-8 thing on purpose. If I had voted Tom to 8 and no one else had voted, then tie = No Lynch, and you go by the mantra that "no lynch = no good!", so.

...nope.  It's if we don't reach majority in later days that we have to worry about a no lynch.  If it's a tie than Kilga would have to use something (Hatbot, coinflip,something) to determine the tie breaker.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Chisa - I'm not getting a good reaction, but I'd hate to say I think he's looking like scum either.  I'm leaning just this side towards the latter if only for the Tom debacle.  Mainly, he agrees that Tom is looking scummy.  Votes for him.  And even after the roleclaim says that he looks even scummier for his retraction of his vote on Otter.  Then says his logic was all faulty for missing Tom's name coming up again in conversation earlier.  And says she's still suspicious of him and if he's lying we'll 'get him later' then votes Strago.  Out of nowhere with no explaination.  And now he's right onto the patchy train, the only one to really get started today.  I'm neutral onmy read, but Chisa is someone I'll be watching because I abhor neutral reads.

Carthrat - Joke vote aside, his first vote is for Smodge with his switching names comment.  Not something I think needed to be voted, but it's Day 1 and really, anything can be a reason to vote someone when you have NOTHING to go on.  Voted Tom based on his scummy action.  Stayed on the train after the claim.  He also points out the lack of real reason to vote Strago and a whole lot of people just jumping on that train to lynch someone who wasn't Tom.  I'm getting a good vibe from Carth at the moment.

Ran - (On a personal note, I hope you don't mind the fact that it's going to take me quite awhile to stop calling you Alex.  I sort of fixate on the first thing I call someone and it's hard to change.  Ask Gate about Smurf Nibblets sometime.)  Started out with a rather lukewarm vote on Tom which really makes sense Day 1.  Tom jumping on Smodge was one of the few things people COULD use as a reason to vote that wasn't 'turn in a circle and whoever I'm pointing at when I stop is scum'.  He also voted to shorten the Day 1 which I think is always helpful in Mafia, especially when you have a large game like this.  His response on why scumtells are a good thing to avoid was a blessing.  I hope it made an impression with those who needed it most.  AND then leads the charge on unvoting Tom based on his cop claim.  Now, despite what might be the obvious move, I am not going to call him out over this.  I said it myself, continuing to try to kill someone who claims cop is almost NEVER a good idea.  I can hardly fault him for doing what I would probably have done if it hadn't been Tom doing it.  We disagreed on Tom and I'm content to let the matter rest.  I have a neutral with slight townie feelings about him at the moment.

AndrewRogue - Voted me, but I also agreed that someone on the early Otter train was likely scum.   We obvious disagreed on who that was at the time (*grin*), but not something I think is OMGUS-worthy from me.  Voted Strago before Tom's cop claim.  Now, one line I did find suspicious to me: 'If we wait, we can (potentially) later confirm his actual alignment and deal with him, all without smacking down an (uncountered, might I add) cop claim?'  I'd like to know your thoughts on why a cop (assuming we have one) should pop up and say, "he can't be the cop because I am!"  Why would we want a cop to out themselves like that to the scum?  And as for me being unusually aggressive, maybe I have been.  I have been developing this annoying tendancy to get killed off early game by the scum for being (as Tai so sweetly put it) too analytical to live.  I'm worried about getting killed off early game again and so I want to make sure that whatever town is left to look at from me late game when the flip is known, knows exactly what I was thinking without any uncertainty.

Tonfa - Voted for Tom.  Kept his vote even after the claim.  Said he was going to hammer Strago when it got close.  I'm not sure why the sudden change of thoughts.  I can't find that explained.  I'd like to hear why you were planning on hammering Strago when you stated that you were leaving your vote on Tom despite his claim.  It's not to the point where we'd lose our lynch if we didn't hammer, so your reasoning would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Oblivion Knight - Nothing of any real substance at start.  Voted Tonfa to get a lurker to post and then removed it once Tonfa did.  Then got involved in the various types of cops/scum saying cop discussion.  Lays in very heavy with the detailed thoughts on Tom.  Did...hmmm...did not vote Day 1 after removing the Tonfa vote.  Neutral feeling.

Corwin - Involved with getting everyone to talk before the serious mud started flying.  Voted Tom.  Stuck by his vote after the roleclaim.  At Day 2 start, gives a wonderful detailed post.  Oddly enough, up until this, I was neutral to town read on him.  After this post...I've fall down a notch to at least neutral.  It's really such a silly thing, but I can NOT get over one line he said.  'At least the reactions to Tom's flip keep my spirits up. Ah, same old Tom, and people fall for it still.'  I tried looking at Townie Corwin saying that and Scum Corwin saying that and...it just felt so RIGHT when the latter one said it.  I don't have ANYTHING else to go on but that, so I'm not going to say scum.  I just think it's...off.

kneesockscloud - Reading back through patchy's posts reminded me of something.  She pointed out that if Tom was a double voter, why wasn't his double vote seen when he was voting for Smodge earlier.  Now, Tom has flipped double voter, so it's obvious he was...just weirdness.  Good catch.  And onto my thoughts in general: Neutral read.  She's spent most of her posts being frustrated which I find is usually a townie trait, but she's not really been giving me much that sets of my townie bells or scum bells, so...I'll keep watching.  

Halbarad - Hasn't had a chance to post Day 2 yet.  I am looking forward to reading that.  Voted on Tom and held the vote through the roleclaim based on his stated belief that he didn't believe Tom.  Townie feelings at the moment.

People with neutral reads so strong I have nothing on at all:the rest of you not noted above.  I ABHOR neutral reads, so you're all people I'm going to be paying close attention to for now.

Now, this took me 3 HOURS to write so I am going to bury my nose in a game for awhile until I can untangle my poor brainmeats.  10 new replies since I posted.  Bah.  I'll read those when I get back.

[Sierra]

Patchu: Fair amount of talk about her at the moment. The whole voting without reading thing is...yeah, bad. I can see posting a little bit at a time as you get caught up on ~half a dozen pages (hey, that's what I'm doing), but if you're going to throw down a vote, you should at least take the time to scan through for a votecount

Chisa: Attracted some attention but cleared him/her/itself up fairly well in my eyes, for the moment.

Right now I'm eyeing people on the Tomtrain, and...Hal has been Quiet Too Quiet, so lets see if we can nudge him into action.

##Vote: Halbarad

Also, the crying Reisen picture makes me feel like an asshole, so ##Love: Reisen. Sorry about that!

[Sierra]

Blah, posted without finishing my rambling on Mia (I jump around a lot when typing something, often leaving sentences unfinished and coming back to them later. I forgot to do the second part this time). Anyway, I was going to say I'm half-inclined to give her a vote just for that horrid wall of text, but I'm not sure if she's done enough to make me suspicious apart from that. And I'd more like to get Hal moving anyway.

[Tonfa]

Tonfa - Voted for Tom.  Kept his vote even after the claim.  Said he was going to hammer Strago when it got close.  I'm not sure why the sudden change of thoughts.  I can't find that explained.  I'd like to hear why you were planning on hammering Strago when you stated that you were leaving your vote on Tom despite his claim.  It's not to the point where we'd lose our lynch if we didn't hammer, so your reasoning would be appreciated.  Thanks.

As you wish. My reasons are twofold. First, as I thought I stated in my before-crashing post (though not clearly enough, looking back at it), I indeed had a change of mind upon reading arguments. A scum pretending to be a cop actually hangs the noose around their own neck, as he'll become an instant suspect if he doesn't draw the nightkill. I didn't realize this at first, thinking that in the case Dread Thomas was lying (which...well, he was, but not quite how I expected it, nor do I still understand the logic), consequences would be rather dire.

Second, I operated under the thought that there was going to be consequences (no lynch, what have you) for day drawing to deadline since that seems to be DL standard. This is not the case, then?

I still want Kilga to get here before I start voting for anyone today.

[Otter]

Mrf.  Patchu's wall of books attack -did- look like a byproduct of frustration.  Did scum have any particular reason to be frustrated?  I guess not.  I'm not really willing to commit to that line of reasoning, though, because scum have every reason to lie and act in ways that aren't genuine.  I'm still bothered by the "I want to vote this way but the voting majority is leaning this way so I'll go with that instead to get it over with" philosophy, especially if that's going to be the bottom line of a giant wall of text.  That's just weak.  The voting majority is created by individual votes, and we all only get one, 'cept for Tom over there apparently.  Vote for the person you think seems most like scum!  This is basic!

Ciato, I realize we're here to lynch scum rather than punish poor play, but... rewarding slip-ups and scum tells with pressure and/or death is pretty much how we get scum.  As Alex says, it's actually not that hard to avoid insanity when you're playing as town.  One big part of your job as a townie, which you might be neglecting in favor of the "Figure out who's scum!" bit, is acting like a townie so you don't get mislynched and hurt town badly that way.  Scum have a harder time with this than we do (they know more, and you have to work at making sure you don't betray any of your extra information or intentions, either through your words or through your votes), so if we're all being lined up against the wall, it's natural that we want to look our best so they stand out more clearly.  This is also basic!

I guess I can see why Tom thought it was a good idea to lie, even though oh my God it so WASN'T.  Namely, by claiming cop and then avoiding a lynch that day, he drew an immediate NK, guaranteeing that... someone with a power would die.  So uhh he did ensure the safety of any better power roles for the night, I guess.  FOR THE RECORD: Do not do this.  Town needs to stop lying.  Most totally basic principle right here.

Also, yeah, waiting on Kilga for some clarification.  Hopefully those are just unimportant clerical errors.

[Shale]

Also, please bear in mind that if Tom had not been NKed, for instance if the scum had feared doctor protection enough to pick somebody else (and the fact that they didn't do this is honestly a little disquieting to me), he would have been lynched when we found out he wasn't a cop. This is not a good strategy for town play.

[Luther Lansfeld]

As I said, the best possible outcome happened. <_< Well I guess Tom getting doc protection and living would have been better, but it could have been so much worse.

[Smodge13]

Ok i would something decent, but girlfreind is standing over me with murderous look in her eyes.
Sorry about inactivity, i thought day 1 would go for 24 hours more longer, i should be back to my normal posting standards in about 8-12 hours.
i promise 1 big long post when that happens.

Note to self, Corwin wants my thoughts on Tonfa.
Anyone else want anything? just so when i do that big post i'll include it.

[Chisa]

Alright, time for me to get some serious thinking done.  I'm looking through the trains at the moment, and here's what I'm coming up with.

Strago Train:

Andrew - Lurked early, but comes out with a QR vote.  Warns people not to keep their eyes on the Tom thing, then switches vote to Strago for LAL.  Shows up again after Tom's cop claim.  Votes patch without unvoting, weird.  Notices Smodge has been lurking.  Changes that vote to Strago to keep Tom from the noose.  Other than the vote/unvote debacle, I'm not getting much of a read here other than he didn't want to lynch the potential cop, which is understandable from town.

Ran - Votes Andrew for lurking, moves it to Tom looking at his reaction to Smodge's name-steal comment.  Yells at Tom for his bad town play.  Then Tom claims cop, and he switches direction.  Keeps reiterating that lynching cops is bad.  After the lynch and the night, comes down on Patch's hammer for much the same reasons I did.  My brain is telling me he's at least acting like a very zealous townie, but my gut keeps telling me something may not be right.

Ciato - Doesn't say much of anything until accused of lurking.  Defends Tom with "Tom being Tom" arguments.  Following Alex's rant, votes Strago (with a Tonfa vote already in play...), having not believed in the Tom case in the first place.  Comes in day two with more bad play arguments re: Patch, though admits she did act suspicious.  Very slight scum read, mostly attributable to the lurking.

Nitori - Not very many posts day one.  Votes Strago for lurking, takes it off when he posts.  Notes Tom for bad play.  After Alex's rant, places a vote on Strago, although believing Tom to be more scummy.  Day two, votes me, which is understandable giving my vote flailing.  I find myself unable to make a read here because there isn't that much material to work with.  This is bad.

Gate - Votes Otter for lurking.  When he posts, switches to Andrew.  When Andrew posts, switches to Strago.  Thinks the Tom matter is a smokescreen, which it turns out to be.  Doesn't post again until after Tom claims cop.  Doesn't believe the claim, announces his intent to hammer, and gives Tom and Shale chances to speak.  Alex unvotes, which he notes, then releases a flawed votecount.  Votes Strago because he's not the one that might be the cop.  Today, so far, has voted Patch based on the hammer and explained the votecount errors.  I'm getting a small town read here, because he looks like he's been doing things to help the town.

El Cid - Makes an LAL vote for OK, and notes Tom's always doing dumb town things.  Wonders about no lynch.  Pulls vote off OK when he says things, and says the Tom thing has at least generated discussion.  Finishes with another LAL vote on Strago.  Unvotes Strago after coming home from work.  Thinks the cop claim is very suspicious, then goes on to say it's still too risky to lynch Tom.  Revotes Strago after reviewing the rest of the thread, believing it to be the best way to help town.  After the flips, takes heat for the -1 to hammer vote, but defends himself nicely.  Ends up voting for Hal because he's been lurking.  I'm getting nice town vibes here.

Patch - Well, you know what I think about that hammer.  Besides that...early game, votes for a couple of lurkers, then takes votes off when they speak.  Eyes go to Tom for most of the day, says he's a giant distraction, and really doesn't want that kind of thing clogging her eyes down the road.  Mentions possibly voting for him a couple of times.  Never does so.  Day two, she defends her actions by saying it's was close when she started the post.  This sets off more alarms.  If it's close, what excuse does a townie have  for not voting in the way you think will benefit the town?  No lynches are bad, but we weren't in danger of one.

Tom Train later when I get the time, I need to go shopping.

[Nitori]

For the record, when I made that post (Strago vote), I was not more suspicious of Tom at that point then Strago; if I had been, I would have voted for him.

I did have a reason to vote for Strago given I didn't like one of his arguments against the cop claim in general, and I felt it was a decent reason for the time, given I wanted to preserve that roleclaim after being convinced by Alex's post of its importance.

Re: Tonfa - The reason I said neutral in that post was that you seemed to follow the hatchet of Tomness, so to speak. It also accurately describes the read I got from you, although you're looking better now~

[Kilgamayan]

Extra votes were clerical errors.

If there were no ##Unvote posts from those re-casting votes, I blame those people.
If there were and I missed then, I blame myself.

Kinda hard to fool Control-F, though, so I'm leaning on the former.

Regarding end of day: Right now I am not planning on "no majority = no lynch" or "no vote = phantom". The person with the most votes at the end of a day gets lynched whether they have 2 votes or 10 (though the former happening would be a great way to get me to change my mind!).

Ties will be broken by sudden death unless no one does anything for a few hours (probably 3 or 4 - I'll be sure to specify) and I get bored and simply pick someone at random.

[Kilgamayan]

Let's Play Danmaku Detective Game! Vote Count:

Patchcloud (5): Ran, Otter, Chisa, Carthrat, Gatewalker
Chisa (1): Carthrat, Nitori
Tonfa (1): Corwin
Nitori (1): OblivionKnight
Halbarad (1): El Cideon

Love Count:

Chen (1): Ran
Everyone (2): OblivionKnight, Taishyr (drunk)
Nitori (1): Nitori
Reisen (3): Corwin, Taishyr (spark bullets), El Cideon
Strago (1): Taishyr (spark bullets)

With 19 people alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch.

Little over 29 hours to go.

[Yakumo]

Well, so much for that idea.  It would seem like the only person who actually jumped ship on Tom after Alex started campaigning against a cop lynch was Chisa, and (s)he had some other evidence to support that change of target.  Mrf.  I'm still looking for something to really catch my eye.  I have a gut feeling, but I'm having trouble finding evidence to support it, so that can wait.  Guess I'll try a different way of looking at things.

[Carthrat]

Disagree that Cid defended himself particularly well. He pretty much did the thing I'm most suspicious of at the moment: Taking a shot at Strago without a reason to vote for strago, just one to *not* vote for Tom. I could say the same about Andrew (who indeed backed this up with a heavy threat to get the lynch stopped), only he had a roleclaim added that gave him a tad more credibility.

<->

Re: Tonfa...

A scum pretending to be a cop actually hangs the noose around their own neck, as he'll become an instant suspect if he doesn't draw the nightkill.

YES Tom would have been a suspect today had he survived, but NO that wouldn't be *because* he survived. I know you didn't say this specifically but I felt there was this implication. Can't try to guess too hard at why or why not someone was NK'd.

<->

I don't buy any of this 'oh look, patchcloud had a big long ranty post that seems more a towntell than anything'. I mean, check this out;

I get flack in Mafia games, even in ones where there are people who are lurking more than me. It's like, "Soppy hasn't been talking for 10mins, he's clearly town, Mia is clearly scum". Seriously what the fuck? I know I'm still a newbie and I'm still learning, but sometimes I wonder if this is a personal thing people have against me?

Huh? Hardly any attention had gone to her today, and she was feeling all ranty and had to bring this up? It was really defensive at a time when she was not really under pressure. You could say it's imagined pressure or just recollections from other games, but I say it's just as likely stress combined with being scum and resulting in a hyper-defensive post that makes it seem like everyone is against her- which, of course, we actually *are* if she's scum.

In short, no, none of the reasons to not vote for her offered to date were convincing. The passing shot at me from her here (at least, I assume it's at me)

"Mia is playing bad!"
Oh really? A certain someone didn't seem to think it was bad play when I was criticized for not doing exactly what I did on the end of Day 1.

could be in reference to me encouraging people to vote, and I stand by that. It's because it, you know, if we all have a free pass to not vote on day 1 it's easier for scum to lurk amongst lurkers. When they're forced to act, the probability of making mistakes goes up... like.. say... the way she's contradicted herself earlier.

<->

On gutclaims: I'm so sick of seeing these. They're impossible to discuss, pointless to put out, and make it look like you're thinking when you may well not be. Unfortunately they seem to be a common thing in the DL parlance. I can only ask that if you're going to make one, try to explain why- right there and then in that post, and not 'I've got a gut feeling... I'll try to explain later.'

<->

Since you asked, Smodge, I want your thoughts on patchcloud. I also want your thoughts on the strago endtrain, particularly Chisa, Cid, and Andrew. Same goes for anyone else looking for something to talk about, really.

[AndrewRogue]

I'm really having problems with the people who insisted on going after Tom, and I think I'm going to end up focused there today. I doubt scum is putting all their eggs in that basket, but... blargh. For everyone jumping on Tom about bad play while having their day one vote on him at the end of the day, it is kind of ironic. So, for you folks who willingly stayed on after his roleclaim... justify it to me.

We'll start with QR.

##Vote: QR

And idly, the problem with a hugely delayed counterclaim is that it allows misinformation to spread and become harder to get yourself accepted as the proper cop. It also means you can start playing the protection game as well as quite likely take out a scum in the process. In other words, if you can generally get scum killed, you should. We win with exchanges and what have you.

But generally, my point was there was no proof to the contrary that Tom was NOT cop. Even if we assume he is the worst player alive (not saying you are man, just making an exaggerated point), as cop, he is still useful, especially since, as a revealed cop, there is no reason for him not to post his investigations each day, which give us something to go off when he invariably flips.

[mia~]

In regards to my supposed "contradiction", I already addressed that and why I mentioned the 7-8 count in regard to that. Apparently this is some shitty scum excuse. Okay.

Day two, she defends her actions by saying it's was close when she started the post.  This sets off more alarms.  If it's close, what excuse does a townie have  for not voting in the way you think will benefit the town?  No lynches are bad, but we weren't in danger of one.

Sorry for believing that the majority of town knew what was best for town and I could just follow their lead rather than putting a dead end and possible tie vote on Tom. And why would mia think like that?

Off Topic Slightly Relevant Story Time! Once upon a time in an IRC game, I was berated on Day 2 for not voting along with the majority to hammer someone by the end of Day 1. Because my position is that of a new player with the game who has never played scum once, I took the advice of those people who were telling me this. Those same people also flipped town in the end, so I assumed that this was not some scum tactic or whatever. I guessed what they were getting at was that you're supposed to trust your fellow townies leads and vote based on that. "Town knows what's best for town" or something. Apparently this is not true, as I am now being voted on by some of those people who told me this for doing exactly what they called me out me for not doing. Well this is awesome. I think I should just quit listening 'cause apparently you either have no idea how to play yourselves or you change your ideas about how to play like you change your underwear. Or maybe it's because you were town in that game, and in this game, maybe you're scum? I have no clue.

In any case, this is getting pretty fruitless for me because I'm being honest about what I did instead of making up elaborate bullshit to cover it. There is nothing new for me to say because I've already said it all unless you'd like me to restate it in a more dressed up way. I don't think I can change your minds because as I said, there's nothing "new" for me to put on the table. There probably aren't any better lynch targets for today since the majority of the focus so if you want a free pass for content today, come make random jabs at me. I'm not like Tom and I'm not going to have a  I really feel that I'm going to be the one to get lynched in 20+ hrs. Since I'm going to flip as a vanilla townie, I might as well re-read the topic and try to contribute about other people in the game before time is up.

[mia~]

Zzz started typing out a sentence then didn't finish it.
- There probably aren't any better lynch targets for today since the majority of the focus is on me so if you want a free pass for content today, come make random jabs at me.
- I'm not like Tom and I'm not going to have a made up roleclaim.