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Author Topic: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic  (Read 126132 times)

Chisa

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #400 on: January 21, 2008, 01:09:51 AM »
Damn the quote boxes.
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OblivionKnight

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #401 on: January 21, 2008, 01:18:48 AM »
4 hours, from what I can see.  

One-shot vig?  Mmm...that's about what I figured (either that or an "objection!" like in PW) was up.  Still...that's like a roleclaim now when you're not in too much trouble.  I really don't know what to make of that.  I'm not hugely suspicious of you, all-in-all (as I said in my post, it could be mis-read), but I want to make sure everything even minorly suspect has some attention today.

This explains a bit about why Andrew lived through the night.  That role (either lynch block or vig) is damaging to town if used improperly, and early on, there's more threat of hitting someone on the town's side than on the scum's side.  I'm just wondering how long he'll be alive now that scum seem to know There's Something about Mary.

I really don't think it's SCUMMY to want to use that power to protect someone you're strongly thinking is a townie.  It's a bit...hit-or-miss, erring on the side of miss that early (see Cmdr.K in the Suikoden mafia), but it is a power to use that could help a lot.  Granted, as I said, that early would be...pretty scary (Cmdr.K, again).  Granted, in this case, I think it would be justified - saving a cop (who turned out to lie!  but no one knew that but Tom) is good...though it could have hit someone else fairly important.  

Nonetheless, I think I get a good view into Andrew's thoughts and think I fully understand his thought process.  I think I get it.  So he's good in my eyes for the moment, I think.  He's also been very civil and defending himself logically and with good support, so I'm fine with him.

##Unvote: Andrew  

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Carthrat

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #402 on: January 21, 2008, 01:22:19 AM »
Ok, to reiterate my original stance: I *don't* agree that cops should out lying cops as quick as they can, and I *don't* believe that one scum for one cop is worth a trade in the early game. The value of the cop goes down as the game drags on and thus counterclaiming becomes viable after a few days, but not now. However, Andrew's posts did not seem like fishing attempts to me. The first one was an incidental turn of phrase; the second one is after the fakeclaimer is *dead* and thus calling it a fishing strategy seems to be reaching for something that's just not there.

Reading Tai and Cor's arguments is confusing. In response to this-

Quote from: Corwin
So here's the thing, I see it and you don't. I'd like other people to weigh in on whether they got the same impression I did, that Andrew was suggesting either a day 1 counterclaim or the night 1 investigation/day 2 claim. Am I the only one who walked away from Andrew's post with this impression?

The gist of what he was saying was that cop should claim shortly after a fakecop (no, I don't think so), so you're not the only one. But although I think this strategy is flawed, like I said before, it just doesn't read as a fishing attempt. That you're piling that kind of suspicion on him at this point is disquieting, to say the least.

Furthermore, Andrew claims to have vigpowers! We could- and should- use them to get two lynches on one day, preferably as soon as possible. I would love to suggest using them today, in fact, except deadline is really close at the moment. I'm gonna insist on you using it tomorrow, though (or perhaps even tonight. I, personally, would actually prefer you used it tomorrow 'cos I'm going out this afternoon, but if I wasn't I'd certainly try to get it used. The intel will still be here when I get back to read it all.) Limited-use powers must be consumed, *especially* after you declare them. I shouldn't need to explain why.

In a shocking reversal of my day 1 attitude to a claim, I find the vote for Andrew after this claim in particular to not be a good move. Especially when we can put it to use *today* before deadline. Patch's post seems to me like she's trying to push for an Andrew lynch, hence the thing on counter-claims (which misses the idea of when such claims can be useful, i.e. mid-late game). And.. apart from that, I didn't make much of what she said. Vote for Andrew, vauge poke of lurkerness, doesn't really know what to think of QR/Corwin... eh. It's *better* than her other posts, I'll grant. I've still got nobody looking worse to me.
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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #403 on: January 21, 2008, 01:29:57 AM »
@Andy:
Except the "counter-claims r bad" was in reference to you. Hence, "Cop should Counter-Claim/Andy/Blah". When did you bring this up? Day 1. Hurhur. As for your Strago vote, I didn't bring up that you didn't vote for Tom, which is the response you gave me. We know you didn't want Tom to die. We get it. But how is voting for Strago saving Tom, exactly? Also, how exactly would being able to have a 1shot day or night vig save Tom? It's misleading to say that you could've stopped Tom's lynch using that when there's no guarantee. What I'm saying is, what if the votes were like 10 Tom/7 Strago? You can't fix that. Even if you killed a person on Tom and voted Strago, then it'd become 9/8, still in favor of Tom. Also, why do you say you have a 1shot of vig then say "voters" in the next sentence like you could've killed multiple ones of them?

Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #404 on: January 21, 2008, 01:30:57 AM »
Let's Play Danmaku Detective Game! Vote Count:

Patchcloud (7): Ran, Otter, Chisa, Carthrat, Gatewalker, Nitori, AndrewRogue
Chisa (1): Carthrat, Nitori, Ciato
Tonfa (1): Corwin, Halbarad
Nitori (1): OblivionKnight, Smodge13
Halbarad (1): El Cideon, Tonfa
QuietRain (0): AndrewRogue
Shale (0): Tonfa, El Cideon, Smodge13, OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight (0): Yakumo
Taishyr (0): Corwin
AndrewRogue (3): Corwin, OblivionKnight, Patchcloud, QuietRain
Corwin (3): Taishyr, El Cideon, Yakumo

Love Count:

Chen (1): Ran
Everyone (2): OblivionKnight, Taishyr (drunk)
Nitori (1): Nitori
Reisen (3): Corwin, Taishyr (spark bullets), El Cideon
Strago (1): Taishyr (spark bullets)
Ran (1): Yukari
QuietRain (1): Gatewalker

Hate Count:

Kaguya (1): Mokou

With 19 people alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch. If there are further errors, please let me know. I'm relying solely on Control-F now, but the possibility still exists that I missed something.

3.5 hours to go. Better make a decision soon. If people want to start sending me night actions, that'd be good.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

AndrewRogue

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #405 on: January 21, 2008, 01:48:32 AM »
To Nitori (and OK), I would have cut it as close as I possibly could have to the deadline/an intent to hammer and killed QR to set back the train and protect Tom. It isn't guaranteed, of course, but I felt, with how close it was at the time, it could well save Tom's life. It is also why I'm coming 100% clear about what the power was right now, as I didn't want people getting it into their heads that I was a Governor and have a literal lynch stopping power and lynch me on the LAL(iars) basis. In other words, I didn't want to let my opaque came become a lie.

I tried to avoid letting it be clear what exactly my power was (hence the "I won't elaborate further on this point" part of my post), and more let the threat do my work for me. To try and keep it clear though, when I made that threat, it was well within my power to stop a Tom lynch. We had tied votes and less than an hour left.

To Carth, sure. Provided I live through the night, I'll put my knives to work for town. I'd much rather avoid using my kills at night anyway. Daykills have a lot more power.

To QR...

I was desperately hoping you were going to say Governor or something, but one shot vig?  Thank heavens you didn't use it!  You'd have killed off what would most likely have been a townie, we'd still have been out Tom and if you think that you would have survived long after making such a play, you're off your rocker.  Talk about a potential clusterf*ck narrowly averted.

And you know what? It was still 100% less stupid than trying to lynch Tom. I was willing to put myself on the block to protect someone who might have been cop. You were willing to waste our first lynch on a potential cop. And honestly, I don't think it would have been that large a clusterfuck. I had as good a chance at tagging scum as anyone else, and I couldn't have anticipated that Tom would die on night 1.  Obviously, I didn't want to have to use it (hence putting out a vague threat instead of vigging someone), but I was willing.

*shrugs* It would have been pretty obvious and I would have been, omg, in danger today. Big change from earlier today. But I stand by this one particular point. I was trying to save someone claiming cop. You were trying to lynch them.

To Patch...

Quote
Except the "counter-claims r bad" was in reference to you. Hence, "Cop should Counter-Claim/Andy/Blah". When did you bring this up? Day 1. Hurhur.

I've also clarified that counter-claims need to be substantiated, as they are useless otherwise. You're rehashing points I've already gone over and cleared up as if I haven't posted. This is silly and misleading. More to the point, your logic is, at best, implied, meaning that looks at least as much like you are trying to discourage counter-claims as you claim I was fishing for claims, if that makes sense. In other words, it is the pot calling the kettle black.

Quote
As for your Strago vote, I didn't bring up that you didn't vote for Tom, which is the response you gave me. We know you didn't want Tom to die. We get it. But how is voting for Strago saving Tom, exactly?

Uh... well. If Strago has more votes than Tom, or hits majority, he gets lynched and Tom does not. Tom and Strago were neck and neck for votes. if I voted for Strago, he could be lynched instead of Tom. 2 + 2 = 4!

Quote
Also, how exactly would being able to have a 1shot day or night vig save Tom? It's misleading to say that you could've stopped Tom's lynch using that when there's no guarantee. What I'm saying is, what if the votes were like 10 Tom/7 Strago? You can't fix that. Even if you killed a person on Tom and voted Strago, then it'd become 9/8, still in favor of Tom.


I didn't make my threat at that point however. I made my threat at a point where I was confident I could do it, not when I had no ability to. Again, this is why I'm clarifying my power now. I made an opaque threat that was honest. I don't want it biting me in the ass later.

Quote
Also, why do you say you have a 1shot of vig then say "voters" in the next sentence like you could've killed multiple ones of them?

Poor sentence structure, sadly. Was trying to get it to sound right and ended up with the plural, embarassingly.

AndrewRogue

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #406 on: January 21, 2008, 01:54:09 AM »
*sigh*

*kill

I'm going to get jumped on for that. Stupid plural sounding better.

VySaika

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #407 on: January 21, 2008, 01:59:00 AM »
I'm...yeah. Okay. Pulling thoughts together now.

Re: Andy's hardclaim
Uh, thank you for not nuking anyone day 1? I suppose that would have worked, but I'd much rather you slammed someone who you actually think is scum with that then a random voter on a train. As for the "Roleclaim Fishing" defense...alright, I'm satisfied with that.

Re: Patchupostu
The "counterclaims are always bad" line also rubs me the wrong way, but what gets me a bit more is this:
@Andy:
Except the "counter-claims r bad" was in reference to you. Hence, "Cop should Counter-Claim/Andy/Blah". When did you bring this up? Day 1. Hurhur. As for your Strago vote, I didn't bring up that you didn't vote for Tom, which is the response you gave me. We know you didn't want Tom to die. We get it. But how is voting for Strago saving Tom, exactly? Also, how exactly would being able to have a 1shot day or night vig save Tom? It's misleading to say that you could've stopped Tom's lynch using that when there's no guarantee. What I'm saying is, what if the votes were like 10 Tom/7 Strago? You can't fix that. Even if you killed a person on Tom and voted Strago, then it'd become 9/8, still in favor of Tom. Also, why do you say you have a 1shot of vig then say "voters" in the next sentence like you could've killed multiple ones of them?

Um, that should be rather obvious? Voting for Strago, at that juncture and with the votes that were there at the time, was a good move to save Tom by getting someone else lynched. And if forced, Andy could have reduced the number of Tom voters by 1 to save him. Yeah, it's not a surefire thing as, in the hypothetical you mention, Tom could still keep the lead, but realistically it's a nearly certain thing to work, even if it's not perfect. You seem rather fond of putting together hypothetical situations, "what ifs?" as you said in a previous post, to get your point across. The thing is, those are Straw Man arguments. You're taking Andy's threat out of context, putting it into a situation where it's not workable, and tearing it down to make him look worse. This has me rather convinced now. My vote stands.

Althoug, at the same time, she does bring up one good point. Andy, mind clarifying this:

Quote
I'm a one-shot vig, and can kill at day or night. Had pressure kept piling on Tom, I would have killed off voters to try and protect him.

for us?

EDIT: And Andy explains before I ask. Well enough then.
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Shale

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #408 on: January 21, 2008, 02:32:13 AM »
Andrew...gah. I'm willing to buy that he only took the logic farther after Tom was gone, and I'm definitely on his side in this dispute with Mia. If you an get scum lynched by claiming, you claim - just make sure you know they're scum first! Not using your role to help town when you can is as bad as claiming it when it's no help at all.

Speaking of whom. Miasma's been lurky or defensive the whole game so far, and her arguments against other players are getting more and more spurious. "How is voting for Strago saving Tom?" is...uh, yeah. Add that to the Day 1 behavior, both the noncommittal background-ness that I prodded her for early and the logic surrounding the hammer vote...gah. This could either be bad town play or panicky scum play. It's certainly not pro-town.

QR: You're voting Andrew based (partly) on how he says he'd use his daykill? This is...worrying, really. You're both trusting his claim and calling for his head, which seems a lot like trying to lynch bad townies instead of scum. That's not a winning strategy, numbers-wise.

Andrew: Echoing Carthrat. "Limited-use powers must be consumed, *especially* after you declare them. I shouldn't need to explain why." Yeah.
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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #409 on: January 21, 2008, 02:45:30 AM »
1-Patchy: I have to agree with my better half on this one.  That argument is just wrong.  I am very against what Andrew was trying to do with his power, but not even I am going to say it was outright wrong.  Heck, if he killed off anyone, you can bet a couple of people in addition to the one he killed would have backed off.  It's not a flawed strategy.  I just massively disagree with it. What you said just raised about every red flag I have.

2-My vote on Andrew:

Shale: While I had reason to doubt Tom, I do not have a reason to doubt Andrew.  Do I think he may have this one shot vig ability?  Yes, I do.  Does that change my opinion of the level of wrongness of his action?  No.

I think it was an insanely stupid thing to contemplate.  Good grief, what if he killed the doc who wasn't acting scummy at all, but just happened to be on the train?  Or the REAL fricking cop that Tom was pretending to be?  What on earth makes a random kill on a target who has given no sign that they are scum (other than to NOT BELIEVE SOMEONE WHO TURNED OUT TO BE LYING) a good idea?  To kill off someone to save someone you haven't verified is town is not good town play.  The scum are sitting back and laughing their tails off.  They can really just kick back and relax because we'll all just randomly kill each other off at this rate.  It's sad.  Now, I am still not satisfied with Andrew's answer, but yes I can see his logic and I do not believe it to be flawed.  I just flat do not agree.

Now, I put my vote on Andrew because his action seemed the only thing to me to date outside of Tom's actions that read scummy to me.  But after Patchy's last comment, she seems a far worse offender than he is.

##Unvote Andrew
##Vote Patchy

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QuietRain

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #410 on: January 21, 2008, 02:53:51 AM »
Firstly,

##Unvote Andrew
##Vote Patchy


Because the not bold was irritating me.  And I agree with Shale that now that you've said that Andy, you really need to use it.  It's not safe to assume you're going to survive to use it another day or that scum won't sit on you to prevent it.  I hope that you would allow whoever you do plan to use it on (whenever you do use it, even if not tonight) a chance to convince you if it would be a bad idea.  We're nearing the end of the day so if you're using it tonight, I hope you provide this chance to your target.
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AndrewRogue

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #411 on: January 21, 2008, 03:00:21 AM »
I intend to save it for day tomorrow.

Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #412 on: January 21, 2008, 03:08:30 AM »
Let's Play Danmaku Detective Game! Vote Count:

Patchcloud (8): Ran, Otter, Chisa, Carthrat, Gatewalker, Nitori, AndrewRogue, QuietRain
Chisa (1): Carthrat, Nitori, Ciato
Tonfa (1): Corwin, Halbarad
Nitori (1): OblivionKnight, Smodge13
Halbarad (1): El Cideon, Tonfa
QuietRain (0): AndrewRogue
Shale (0): Tonfa, El Cideon, Smodge13, OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight (0): Yakumo
Taishyr (0): Corwin
AndrewRogue (2): Corwin, OblivionKnight, Patchcloud, QuietRain
Corwin (3): Taishyr, El Cideon, Yakumo

Love Count:

Chen (1): Ran
Everyone (2): OblivionKnight, Taishyr (drunk)
Nitori (1): Nitori
Reisen (3): Corwin, Taishyr (spark bullets), El Cideon
Strago (1): Taishyr (spark bullets)
Ran (1): Yukari
QuietRain (1): Gatewalker

Hate Count:

Kaguya (1): Mokou

With 19 people alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch. If there are further errors, please let me know. I'm relying solely on Control-F now, but the possibility still exists that I missed something.

Little under 2 hours to go. Better make a decision soon. If people want to start sending me night actions, that'd be really good.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #413 on: January 21, 2008, 03:17:45 AM »
Damn. Lemme just say, Andy, that I'm glad you didn't have to use that. It's far, far too easy to hit a townie on day one. I understand your reasoning (hell, I voted the same way), but I can't help but think that that would've been a clusterfuck. Moreso than the day was, I mean.

Also thirding the sentiment of "the sooner, the better" in regards to your kill. Tom claimed cop on day one; he got nightkilled. Doc protection isn't guaranteed. Not going to speculate why. But consumable powers should probably be used while they still can. EDIT: And, Andy's already responded to this point. I type slow, alright?

And...my vote stays where it is. Not entirely convinced mia's a lynch target that'll help us much; at the same time she hasn't contributed much past self-defense and there's not time left before the deadline to start a case against someone else...well, I'm more comfortable leaving my vote on Cor (I still feel like the case he made was invented).

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #414 on: January 21, 2008, 03:28:10 AM »
Wow, I'm up.

I'm a one-shot vig, and can kill at day or night. Had pressure kept piling on Tom, I would have killed off voters to try and protect him. Obviously, I am willing to use this power to protect myself as well.

If Tom is any indication you're at risk of not living through the night.  Agreeing with folks, you should probably use it *now*. 

Being willing to use your oneshot kill to off a Tom voter... protecting the claimed cop is good, using townie kills is awesome, but if you have only one, that seems a wee bit overboard.  I can see it, though.

But you also don't seem to fear being killed tonight.

And you did say "kills", which yes, I'mma take under consideration.

This is not really looking hot...

Patch hasn't helped her case while I've been asleep either. 

Gads, I don't know what to do.  Staying with vote on Patch for now. 

The non-Andrew/Patch cases don't stand out to me at a glance, though out of them I'm getting most suspicious of Cor.

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #415 on: January 21, 2008, 03:47:55 AM »
...-_-

Aiyo.

To Cor: I ... think this is just a massive disconnect at this point - neither of us seem to get what the other is even trying to get at most of the time, here. While I still think this is -really- odd...

##Unvote: Corwin.

And...

##Vote: Patchucloud.

This puts Cloud at -1 to lynch.


Reasoning: I'm still having problems seeing her defense, as I pointed out earlier. Am I anything resembling confident in this? Not... really, no. But... myar. I operate on the policy that town should always use their lynch, always have, and Patchycloud, unlike EvilTom/Strago... well, EvilTom had his arguments but lynching claimed cop without anything against it = bad, to me, and Strago just seems like a pileon excuse... so I feel far more justified in placing this vote than I would have for the EvilTom/Strago (had I been around for the end-of-day in that one).

Bah. Gut's not giving me anything good, here.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #416 on: January 21, 2008, 03:56:16 AM »
Okay, there's no lynch here, right? If there is I'll be announcing intent to hammer/want claims/etc, if there's not, lalala.
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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #417 on: January 21, 2008, 03:57:40 AM »
I believe we're still on majority lynch at deadline, Ciato.  I'd like for Andrew to talk some more before the day ends, if he's around.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #418 on: January 21, 2008, 04:00:43 AM »
I was under the impression of that too, but I want no nasty surprises at the end of the day. :P
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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #419 on: January 21, 2008, 04:01:11 AM »
Let's Play Danmaku Detective Game! Vote Count:

Patchcloud (9): Ran, Otter, Chisa, Carthrat, Gatewalker, Nitori, AndrewRogue, QuietRain, Taishyr
Chisa (1): Carthrat, Nitori, Ciato
Tonfa (1): Corwin, Halbarad
Nitori (1): OblivionKnight, Smodge13
Halbarad (1): El Cideon, Tonfa
QuietRain (0): AndrewRogue
Shale (0): Tonfa, El Cideon, Smodge13, OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight (0): Yakumo
Taishyr (0): Corwin
AndrewRogue (2): Corwin, OblivionKnight, Patchcloud, QuietRain
Corwin (2): Taishyr, El Cideon, Yakumo

Love Count:

Chen (1): Ran
Everyone (2): OblivionKnight, Taishyr (drunk)
Nitori (1): Nitori
Reisen (3): Corwin, Taishyr (spark bullets), El Cideon
Strago (1): Taishyr (spark bullets)
Ran (1): Yukari
QuietRain (1): Gatewalker

Hate Count:

Kaguya (1): Mokou

Notice: Patchcloud is one vote away from lynch!

With 19 people alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch. If there are further errors, please let me know. I'm relying solely on Control-F now, but the possibility still exists that I missed something.

60 minutes to go. Better make a decision soon. (Two of you haven't.) If people want to start sending me night actions, that'd be really good.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #420 on: January 21, 2008, 04:02:03 AM »
Ciato: I am not enforcing no majority = no lynch yet. I will if I have to, but I do not feel like I have to.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

AndrewRogue

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #421 on: January 21, 2008, 04:04:03 AM »
Here. If you guys want me to kill someone tonight/today, I am willing.

QR remains one of my largest candidates, aside from Patchy.

Generally speaking... I'm not worried about night kills for a fairly specific reason. I'd perfer to leave it at that, but if you want the full story, I can.

Taishyr

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #422 on: January 21, 2008, 04:06:05 AM »
I dislike ever relying on plurality lynch. Also, who hasn't voted, here?

9. Oblivion Knight
10. Shale

Where do you two stand, gentleladies?

17. Halbarad

And as for the resident sukima... thoughts?

QuietRain

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #423 on: January 21, 2008, 04:13:07 AM »
Honestly, if you're going to try to do this today instead of relying on the ability to make it through the night, you need to declare it now.  We have less than an hour now for whoever you choose (and yes I realize it's most likely me at this point) to give good evidence on why this is a BAD IDEA.  So, if I need to defend myself, please say so now.  If not, then by all means, stand your ground and we'll do this on the morrow (assuming either of us lives that long).

Less than an hour is NOT a good amount of time to give reasons for things and get any amount of decent feedback from people on whether or not they believe someone.  It's possible, but any less time is just not going to work well period.

My opinion is that if you are certain you will survive the night then it would serve town better to get more time to argue this out by doing it tomorrow when people can pick over things more thuroughly.
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AndrewRogue

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #424 on: January 21, 2008, 04:15:47 AM »
It is up to you guys. I'm trying to put myself at your disposal. Make a quick decision. I'm apt to give it until tomorrow.