Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

[Shale]

.......oh my, that's epic.

[Smodge13]

..........holy crap

[AndrewRogue]

...well.

[Halbarad]

...guess I NEED to go back and read all of QR's posts now.

This is what I get for trusting my digestive tract.

[Carthrat]

Candidates for Andy's kill include...

QR. I just don't get voting for Andrew after this roleclaim at all, regardless of if you think he's playing 'bad town' when he has a oneshot vig use that we can *definately* use. Up until now I've found her play fairly solid, but this, combined with the hasty-looking unvote Andrew/vote Cloud action means that I'm no longer willing to let her slide. It didn't seem like part of her criteria for unvoting Andy was the main reason not to- his role. I'd like you to explain just how you managed to come to the conclusion it was a good idea to vote for Andrew in the first place- did it just not occur to you that we can put him to use?

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5003#msg5003 here's that vote.

asdf slowcop, Tai came up town... ok. I never really doubted you having a good reason to go after Tom or anything, but this doesn't clear up why you went after Andrew for me.

JKL; MILLERCLAIM WHAT WHAT WHAT I... I need a drink. ##Vote: QuietRain Obligatory, right? Right.

<->

Ciato. It... really comes down to her defence of Miasma. I cannot *stand* this idea that there's some kind of threshold where bad play becomes a towntell. Furthermore, I don't understand how people can really support these people as town. I agree with what Alex has said; awful play is easy to avoid. Especially for people who have games of mafia under their belt... which Miasma, apparently, does.

Relevant Links.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4718#msg4718
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4735#msg4735

<->

Corwin. He's mentioned that groupthink behaviour doesn't seem scummy to him, and... I dimly recall an incident in discworld where he zapped me for engaging in it? Or was that because I'm not usually prone ot it?

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4897#msg4897

Anyway, this is just a small thing compared to how he's taking shots at Andrew. I've said it a few times myself; with the day 1 cop controversy over and done with, it still seems really, really strange to go after Andrew for trying to out actual cops. No matter how many times I read the Taishyr/Corwin posts, they remain impenetrable to me (as nobody seems to have a CLUE what the other is actually saying). Another bits that stood out was Corwin calling Tai's vote for him an OMGUS vote. Confusion as to the reason? Possibly, but Corwin seemed to think he knew what Tai was talking about, and his response to the attack seems very, very bizzare in that context.

This feud starts here and goes on and on and on...

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4911#msg4911


QR has a copclaim going for her at the moment. My main problems with Ciato stem from who and why she's defending, not who she's attacking. Corwin has come out with an argument that seems to make up intent that's not really plausible given the circumstances.

Given that it's hugely unlikely Andrew can really be considered trying to fish at the time when he did, why did you vote for him then? EDIT: I was going to vote for you here, but.. millerclaim? Uh. I'm gonna think about this.

Amusingly, I was thinking of calling Hal on lurkerness, but he's dodged that bullet by ninjaing me today. No problems there, then. I WOULD like to request a postfrom Shale, however, on who he thinks looks particularly scummy. He's chimed in at the end of day 2 with a few short posts and they do have stuff in them; not gonna vote him for lurking, but I am gonna ask him what he thinks about how the game has progressed as a whole and who he thinks looks scummy at present.

[AndrewRogue]

So. There are exactly two options at this point.

QR is scum or Tai is not town.

Guess which one I'm leaning towards.

[Shale]

So. QR has town reads on two people, one of whom has already flipped town and the other of whom claims miller. That leaves us with three possibilities:

1) QR is a naive cop, and therefore basically vanilla.
1a) N.B.: Tai could still be scum here, seizing an opportunity for an easy lynch.

2) QR is lying scum.

3) Tai is a godfather, lying to get a cop lynched; he really does read town to cops, but sees the opportunity to get one killed.

Opinions?

[AndrewRogue]

Hrm. Cop sanities escaped my mind for the moment. Blarghle.

[Smodge13]

There's also chance of roleblock, wouldn't that stop tai's millerness?

Regardless, i thought QR was scum and voted for her before the claim, so i'm willing to stick with it regardless of the claim.

Although i will have to reread Tai's posts, so thoughts will be coming on him later.

[Taishyr]

Sanities were why I didn't vote. I'm trying to figure out if she could actually be Naive, since that's the only feasible answer here, but I don't know if the way Kilga runs things puts miller/godfather ability over sanities (I've seen both, I put miller/godfather over sanity every time but that's the way I roll). If sanity applies over miller, then she could be... uh... Naive, and that's it.

I'd claim the rest of my role, but it's honestly not going to help town if I do so (you know the godcoptor - godfather, cop and doctor all in one bag, with free use of all three? Yeah, it's almost, but not exactly, entirely unlike that. And far less useful).

[Halbarad]

Yeah, this is why I didn't immediately jump to "omg QR is scum lynch now" - more research is required and blah, I don't want to scour the topic right now. ;_; Will try to get up a post on this before I go to bed but I'm not going to swear to it as bed is very, very tempting tonight and I still need to go get some dinner.

[Taishyr]

*only feasible answer aside from being scum

Blah to no editing in the early morning.

[Carthrat]

Cop sanity... maybe. The timing of that copclaim seemed odd- it was long before she was under any real danger, except from Andrew, well, not liking her. And naive cop + drawback stretches credibility for me. I dunno, though, it seems a bit more belivable to me than Tai as godfather. Why contest being confirmed town in this position? Especially when the cop claims to not be functional for the next day?

[Taishyr]

Also, to Smodge: My ability worked (well, "worked") last night, so I know I wasn't roleblocked.

If that would even detrigger my millerness, which... possible but unlikely.

[AndrewRogue]

Okay. While the possibility exists, I'm gonna state that my doubts remain on QR.

Tai, as Godfather, kills himself if QR flips town. There is NO way he lives if QR goes the positive way. Now, remember how I talked about one for one being good for town? It is not good for scum. Especially now that the cop is exposed, scum could well work around it.

It could be fairly involved scum bussing, but that is a fairly complex case and needs working out seperately.

I'm curious why QR chose Tai to investigate though especially when, you know, her suspicions were firmly on me for most of the day. Or hell, any of the other noteworthy candidates. Tai doesn't stand out as a particularly clever case. Add in the lynch Tom push, the hyper aggressiveness and this ridiculously early cop claim and... blargh. Certainly not voting yet, but man.

[Shale]

Cop sanity... maybe. The timing of that copclaim seemed odd- it was long before she was under any real danger, except from Andrew, well, not liking her. And naive cop + drawback stretches credibility for me. I dunno, though, it seems a bit more belivable to me than Tai as godfather. Why contest being confirmed town in this position? Especially when the cop claims to not be functional for the next day?

Tai as Godfather was one I threw in there because I realized it wasn't totally 100% that she's lying or naive, as we still only have Tai's word that he reads scum to cops (Hell, I initially wrote "Godfather or non-miller town," but I can't imagine the logic that would go into a false miller claim here.). Naive + drawback being unlikely....eh, in a way it would make sense, as it gives the cop less misinformation that could cloud their judgment.

[Shale]

Tai, as Godfather, kills himself if QR flips town. There is NO way he lives if QR goes the positive way. Now, remember how I talked about one for one being good for town? It is not good for scum. Especially now that the cop is exposed, scum could well work around it.

Huh? If QR flips town, the most likely result is that she was naive, unless Kilga explicitly gives us cop sanities on death. Tai's not cleared in that case, but what makes you say he's automatically scum?

[Halbarad]

Huh? If QR flips town, the most likely result is that she was naive, unless Kilga explicitly gives us cop sanities on death. Tai's not cleared in that case, but what makes you say he's automatically scum?

If QR flips town, the simplest answer is that Tai was lying about millerdom to get her lynched in order to get us to off our own cop. Or at least that's how I'd read it.

Still haven't started scouring, but will shortly - going after both Tai and QR posts.

[Shale]

Also, my kneejerk here? I don't like the claim. Mainly because of how she ties it to keeping her vote on Tom: She explains much of her kneejerk against Tom in almost the exact terms I pointed out earlier as the worst possible cop counterclaim logic - "he can't be a cop, I'm a cop!" No. Logical fallacy and bad reason to kill a potential investigator, and the other part of it is because he "wasn't playing like a cop?" What does that even mean on Day 1? And no matter what role he had, did you expect Tom to lie low? Ever? That explanation doesn't make the vote look any better, and the logic isn't working for me.

[AndrewRogue]

I'd put the most likely result as Tai being Godfather over QR being a Slow, Naive cop.

Generally speaking, though, I perhaps played it a little strong in my speech. To be technical though, I didn't say he had to be scum. I said he wasn't going to live. Being responsible for cop death is never a good thing and, honestly, I'd say it would be difficult to let him live, given that Godfather/Naive Cop are fairly unprovable possibilities, outside another cop, thus Tai becomes the next best candidate, and a candidate in a real bad place.

Anyhow, out for a short time to go with Ash to Hot Topic, so will be back

[Halbarad]

Bah lack of editing.

Note that "simplest explanation" does not equal "only explanation". Godfather Tai lying about being a miller would do it, but there are other scenarios which can fit the available facts (such as naive cop). If we take QR's assumption at face value (and if she flips town and cop, I see no reason not to), I find it much less likely that she'd be a naive slowcop.

[Smodge13]

a Naive slow cop? that is a very crummy role if true.

It seems too well planned, think about it a cop claim puts a noose around a mafia's neck, a slow cop claim? does it slowly, think about the application of a false claim, 1 person has false claimed cop so we are slightly more likely to believe the next claim especially when the person refused to believe that Tom was the cop.
It's easy enough for a true cop to get caught out, but a slow cop would be an easier claim to juggle.
Personally i think QR is lying and just had that terrible luck of picking the wrong person.

There could be another level of intricacy though.
1. Scum Tai claims Miller gets QR to sacrifice herself like this and then he is practically cleared as town with the sacrifice of a scum buddie (i find it unlikely but it is a possibility) it also would then cover him from our cop if we have one.

QR has been hinting at having a role since day 2, her actions seem a logical scum ploy to try and clear herself, all except for the miller part.

Gah all this is distracting me from reading up on Tai, thoughts on him later.

[Yakumo]

...well.

I don't know how much to trust flavor in this game, but seriously.  We're talking about things being stolen.  If -anyone- was going to be a Miller in this situation, it's Marisa. <_<

Cop sanity is an issue, yes, but a naive slowcop is a little harder(though not impossible) to believe, IMO.

I don't know.  Sanity and the like are an issue, but I don't want this to turn into another Super from NR fiasco, where all the evidence was against him and he still caused havoc.  There's a couple unlikely scenarios where she could be telling the truth, and the more likely situation where she's scum and trying a cop claim gambit. 

##Unvote: Corwin
##Vote: QuietRain

[Shale]

Balance comment, mentioned it before but I'd like to give it its own post:

A naive slowcop would be a better role than naive cop. If the mod prioritizes sanity over the Miller role, then nothing a naive cop learns can be trusted, which means it's better for them to learn as little as possible, so there aren't as many potentially false reads interfering with their judgment!

[QuietRain]

As to why I roleclaimed now, Andrew had stated very thuroughly that I was his target.  Yes, there was ample opportunity for everyone to get together and spend hours and hours defining a target and in the end it might NOT have been me.  But what I did NOT want to do was waste the time with my name in the hat if I did end up being the one picked only to THEN roleclaim and we're back to square one.  If that had happened, there would have to be discussion about whether or not people believed me (hours lost), even if they did then debate on who is the better choice to vig (more hours lost) and THEN we'd get a chance to lynch.  My gaol was to start the conversation early as Andrew was very straight forward on who he wanted to use his ability on yesterday.

Now, in light of Tai's response, I'd believe that either I'm not a purely sane cop, Tai only thinks he's a Miller (which is really a laughable thought) or he's a godfather.  If it's the first option...a slow and not sane cop is not as nice combination.  I send much notloves to Kilga if that is the case.  If the latter...I'll be highly amused.

In regards to my response to Andrew and my votes on him, I have been going with my gut.  I find him fishy.  Especially his certainty that he would not be killed.  It made good sense to me that scum would try.  It seemed to me something that scum would not really have to worry about.  Now he says someone DID try to kill him but failed as he thought they would, but we have a dead Townie just the same.  Do we have an SK or something?

Now, Smodge, I'd like you to clarify something because I didn't understand it as you'd written it:
'There's also chance of roleblock, wouldn't that stop tai's millerness?'

I'm not sure where you're going with this.  Are you saying that you think someone SHOULD roleblock Tai to see if the answer changes?  Or that maybe someone roleblocked him and that's why he read as Town to me?  I'm...lost.  As you're keeping your vote on me, I'd like to know where it's coming from exactly.

EDIT FOR NEW REPLIES WHILE POSTING:
Andrew was curious as to why I chose Tai: becuase when I was picking a target, I wanted to choose the person that stood out the least to me.  That was the most unmemorable to me to date.  And that was Tai.  If I did get vigged today, I wanted my flip to give you all someone that you could either confirm as town or else lynch at the end of day.  I was very tempted to choose Andrew and I almost did.  I still have my suspicions.  But I thought that going for the one who stood out least was the best town play since Andrew was right in there in the conversations and if he were scum, he'd have plenty of opportunity to slip up being so vocal.

And in response to Shale: NO.  I said I did not BELIEVE HIM.  Why does this boggle everyone's mind?  I didn't believe him when he LIED.  I did entertain the thought that there was another cop, but I did not believe him when he said it was him.   So, YES, I kept my vote on him.  I did not believe his words.  Is this, or is this NOT a game of analyzing what people say?