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Author Topic: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic  (Read 126034 times)

Yakumo

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #525 on: January 22, 2008, 03:27:03 AM »
Ah.  I think I get it.  But I'm not sure if my saying it would be good for him either, as I'm not sure WHY he can't say it.  Actually, I'm afraid I do know, and if I do, NOBODY should say it. >_>

Shale

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #526 on: January 22, 2008, 03:28:18 AM »
MY BRAIN HURTS.
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
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AndrewRogue

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #527 on: January 22, 2008, 03:28:45 AM »
The main reason to kill Tai is for the same reason that I didn't want to kill Tom day one: risking the cop is lame. Of course, killing him potentially does not solve the problem.

To Alex: I'm curious about why I'm apparently ringing such bells in your head right now. Is it because of my statements regarding night confidence and/or other things? I'd like to tackle all your problems at once, especially since the former requires even MORE spilling of my abilities, which I'd like to avoid.


Taishyr

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #528 on: January 22, 2008, 03:29:34 AM »
Shale, I know. If I could make this simple I would.

However, I flat-out can't. Yakumo? Maybe he can say it, I've been told I can't but have no specifics about what happens if someone else does. >_>

Ranmilia

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #529 on: January 22, 2008, 03:30:12 AM »
TIME FOR MAGICAL TENKO ABOUT FACE! 

I believe Tai and I don't think he should say more.  I also don't think scum would make a claim like that.  ... I think.

So now I have no idea what to do.  Process of elimination is raising my sinking feeling about Andrew, but I have no idea if that's justified or not.

##Love: Chen

OblivionKnight

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #530 on: January 22, 2008, 03:35:20 AM »
##Love: Marisa
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Halbarad

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #531 on: January 22, 2008, 03:38:16 AM »
Mmmm. I suspect we're on the same page, shikigami of mine, although I can't see why this rings any more true now that you've guessed at the power. If Tai is scum he's already making a very gutsy gambit by claiming miller in the first place; it strikes me as no less gutsy to dance around a roleclaim over the threat of a modkill if he does so. This isn't to say that this could not be the case, but I'm curious why the insight into the role changes your mind so solidly.
- Have you ever contemplated suicide?
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Ranmilia

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #532 on: January 22, 2008, 03:40:28 AM »
To Andrew:  From the start of the game, you've been flaunting your abilities with softclaims.  Day *one* you softclaim a power to stop the Tom lynch.  Then you come out saying it's a oneshot day (or night) vig, and your way of stopping the Tom lynch would be to kill a Tom voter.  That's questionable at best - why didn't you claim dayvig outright earlier and let the town use it, ala Suikomafia, instead of hanging around, dropping hints and using it on your own judgment?  Then you softclaim nightkill protection as well, and gloat about it being successful.  Which... we've only got your word for that, and if true, it means there were two kills.  Where did the other kill come from, and why didn't it show up night one?  Why am I raising these questions and you not?

(On that subject, though, it occurs to me that Chisa's role could be something like mine was in WoT.  There might have been only one kill and Chisa saved Andrew... or whoever else.  Unfortunately, Chisa didn't claim, so we'll never know.)

Ranmilia

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #533 on: January 22, 2008, 03:44:01 AM »
asdhgaghag post button don't actually post, I'm just checking for new replies.  I guess I should F5 instead.

Anyhow!  All that plus the stuff about cops should counterclaim and attacking QR, at a time when I (and I wager other decent analysts) could see she probably WAS a cop trying to do her job without counterclaiming. 

Overall, Andrew, you seem far too confident, both in yourself and for others.  I'm not detecting paranoia, and I am detecting self-interest over town interest in what and how you've claimed.

Yakumo

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #534 on: January 22, 2008, 03:47:55 AM »
Man, I don't want to go to sleep now, the topic's going to be huge when I get up at this rate.  Do note however that I'm very much against vigging Tai right now.

Also, I really do want to know where Corwin's disappeared to.  I know that case is kinda a secondary concern at the moment, but he's been gone a long time.  Same with Otter, come to think of it.

Taishyr

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #535 on: January 22, 2008, 03:51:57 AM »
Otter's the main person I'm worried about, honestly.

Ranmilia

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #536 on: January 22, 2008, 03:52:23 AM »
... my kneejerk to that was "Yakko, Otter isn't playing in this one."

WELL.

I also very much agree with not vigging Tai. 

##Love: Marisa

Otter

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #537 on: January 22, 2008, 03:54:14 AM »
Okay, I'm up to speed now.  Before I proceed, though, I want to clarify something because I feel like I just missed something simple.

Quote from: Andrewkuya
I think I'll reserve it then. I have a lot of reason to believe I'll be cool tonight. ^_^

Andrew says he'll be fine tonight despite his powerful claim!  Night passes and Andrew is okay!

Quote from: Shale
Huh. I guess Andrew really was guaranteed to see daybreak today.

Could someone explain what went down here, really fast?  It feels like I missed some post detailing Andrew's ability to safeguard himself, and then missed the post afterwards that confirmed that this safeguarding took place and that his survival isn't coincidental.  I feel stupid for needing to ask, but maybe someone could lay it out for me anyhow.

Once someone gets that out of the way for me, I can think harder about the Tai and QR issue.  Right now I think I believe Tai for the same reasons Alex does (scum wouldn't make that sort of claim), but... I can't ignore the chance of Alex and Tai being scumbuddies, in which case they definitely have the scheming potential to cook something like this up.  So I'm not going to treat the matter as dealt with yet, as nice as that would be.

OblivionKnight

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #538 on: January 22, 2008, 03:56:56 AM »
Yeah, I've already mentioned Otter's been surprisingly quiet right now (and...less previously).  

Anyway...gah.  Well, the only thing I can see about Andy keeping his powers secret and dancing like that...

A vig with nightkill immunity?  Seems really powerful.  Still, it's possible, unless he knew that Chisa was going to defend him, which would make me think there's a connection between those two only.  I can see why you didn't use it earlier, possibly - bad memories of Suikoden mafia, and if there was some role with the martyr and you connected where you knew...

...bleh, too much speculation.  Wish Chisa could have roleclaimed.  Bah.

This is making my head hurt and preventing me from going to bed.  

Which is bad, since I have rotation tomorrow at 6 >_>
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Taishyr

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #539 on: January 22, 2008, 03:57:31 AM »
Okay, hi Otter! >_>

Also, Andrew has not stated how he can do this. He has stated that he knew he would survive, as you said. I have no clue how he knows all this and find it -just a touch- bizarre. As far as I know, you haven't missed any actual claim from him.

I've not pushed him at all on it for fear it's a restriction like mine, but the... breadth of capability here does have me a bit worried, as terribly odd as that may sound. I... have a few ideas, but yeah.

Shale

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #540 on: January 22, 2008, 03:57:57 AM »
Quote
Could someone explain what went down here, really fast?  It feels like I missed some post detailing Andrew's ability to safeguard himself, and then missed the post afterwards that confirmed that this safeguarding took place and that his survival isn't coincidental.  I feel stupid for needing to ask, but maybe someone could lay it out for me anyhow.

No hard evidence. I just assumed that, like Gate suggested, Chisa's role was the same as Alex's in WoT - divert a nightkill to himself. In which case Andrew was safe, regardless of his own powers, since a NK attempt that got by whatever the hell his protection might be would get caught by Youmu anyway.
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AndrewRogue

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #541 on: January 22, 2008, 03:58:14 AM »
To Andrew:  From the start of the game, you've been flaunting your abilities with softclaims.  Day *one* you softclaim a power to stop the Tom lynch.  Then you come out saying it's a oneshot day (or night) vig, and your way of stopping the Tom lynch would be to kill a Tom voter.  That's questionable at best - why didn't you claim dayvig outright earlier and let the town use it, ala Suikomafia, instead of hanging around, dropping hints and using it on your own judgment?  Then you softclaim nightkill protection as well, and gloat about it being successful.  Which... we've only got your word for that, and if true, it means there were two kills.  Where did the other kill come from, and why didn't it show up night one?  Why am I raising these questions and you not?

(On that subject, though, it occurs to me that Chisa's role could be something like mine was in WoT.  There might have been only one kill and Chisa saved Andrew... or whoever else.  Unfortunately, Chisa didn't claim, so we'll never know.)

*cracks neck* Rawr. Let us tackle this then.

To be frank, I've been using softclaims because my powers are of limited use, and I've been trying to throw some weight around in the interest of helping town and myself as much as possible without lying. The one time kill power... I didn't throw it out day one because it would have been useless there. I likely should have brought it up earlier on day two, and I'll admit, that was a mistake. However, with one use, I wanted to make sure that the double lynch potential (or, if it came to that, me lynching someone) would be effective. Claiming it, after all, is dangerous for me, as last night demonstrated.

To the second point, I softclaimed night kill immunity because I wasn't actually nightkill immune at that point. I had a 50% chance of dodging a kill thrown at me last night. Thus, while I had a fair chance of survival, it was by no means guaranteed. Hence the softclaim. I didn't want to be targeted. I softclaimed to let town know why I wasn't using the power in the last moments of day 2 and try to scare off scum kill attempts. I was, essentially, hedging my bets and trying to put the odds in my favor without lying to town.

To the third point: I implicitly asked those questions in the fact that I did point out we apparently had two kill attempts last night. I suppose I made a mistake in not flat out asking them, but... well, we can't get an answer at this point, so I felt it was simpler to just give warning that we did have two kills out in the open, since, beyond that, it was speculation. Further, I remain convinced it wasn't Chisa saving me, as I was explicitly informed that I dodged the kill.

OblivionKnight

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #542 on: January 22, 2008, 04:05:02 AM »
...two night kills last night.  Where does the other one come from? 

Normal night-kill and...something else?

I suppose it could be...

...

...

...

...Was an extra kill used last night by someone else? 

Mmm...a little suspicion of Andrew at the moment.  Something is...reaching at my mind right now.

For the record, I support not killing Tai with a dayvig, if possible. 
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

OblivionKnight

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #543 on: January 22, 2008, 04:06:33 AM »
Damn, this topic is moving faaaaaaaaast tonight
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Ranmilia

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #544 on: January 22, 2008, 04:16:42 AM »
It should be.  If we're going to take advantage of the double lynch, we need to decide quickly or we'll get caught against a time wall.

Unfortunately I'm at a loss as to who to lynch/vig/whatever now. 

With the QR/Tai/Andrew stuff deadlocked in my mind, Otter springs to mind, but I don't know about vigging him straight out.  There's also Corwin...

Otter

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #545 on: January 22, 2008, 04:18:39 AM »
So, since Andy's claiming little pieces here and there when it becomes relevant rather than making one consolidated roleclaim, let me try to construct his role based on what he's said and assuming that he's being truthful.

He's got:

1)  Daykill and nightkill powers.

2)  Ability to guarantee own survival at night.

3)  Some other powers he's only hinted at.  Can't be nothing at all, though, since he'd have no reason to make those hints then; townies don't lie, remember?  So he -does- have other stuff, although he won't tell us what.

So now we take a step back and say, "Does this make sense?  Is this plausible?"  Well, I guess there have been more overwhelmingly powerful town roles; I just can't think of any.  If he doesn't want to tell us his other powers, he doesn't have to, but I would like to see some proof of this role and that means I want to see him execute a daykill.  How it happens is obviously up to him, but I propose something along the lines of daykilling the player with the most votes with x amount of time left to go in the day.  If I don't see this or some other proof more substantial than Andrew's words alone, trust cat will run out of trust.

Taishyr

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #546 on: January 22, 2008, 04:20:09 AM »
Corwin isn't usually around for two more hours, in his defense, due to going to work and all. So, uh, as noticeable as his absence is, he has at least something of a cover. Otter was in chat, I wasn't going to buy it from him, but he posted and hopefully will continue to do so. So.

AndrewRogue

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #547 on: January 22, 2008, 04:24:16 AM »
I'd normally be quite gung ho about QR, but it would be kind of hypocritical after day one, for all that she looks absolutely awful at this point.

Tai... bleh. I don't feel good about killing him for a lot of reasons.

Myself... well. Vigging me is quite unconstructive. :p

Otter... isn't bad, as lurker supreme, but that is all at this point.

Honestly though, I think it is important we resolve the QR issue. I'll mull on some candidates otherwise though.

Addendum, for Otter posting. Not quite. I have a single vig kill that can be used whenever, so let's keep that straight. But yeah, I'm going to demonstrate my power today. You guys pick the way I do it, and I'll exercise the kill power. The "most votes at point X" makes the most sense to me, but I'm also willing to use it to resolve the QR/Tai issue.

OblivionKnight

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #548 on: January 22, 2008, 04:25:00 AM »
Yeah, if we don't see a kill today, we know we can probably go lynch crazy on Andrew.  

Corwin, Otter are the two people most interesting to look at based on yesterday's information.  

Mmm...I'd like to see Corwin come back to this.  I'd like another opinion, particularly his - since I'd like to see his thoughts on things, particularly this current Andrew/QR/Tai thing.  Since he had some issues with Andrew earlier, I'd like to see what he thinks now.      
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Otter

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Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic
« Reply #549 on: January 22, 2008, 04:27:24 AM »
Heyo, it's Andy!

Quote from: Andrewkuya
To the second point, I softclaimed night kill immunity because I wasn't actually nightkill immune at that point. I had a 50% chance of dodging a kill thrown at me last night. Thus, while I had a fair chance of survival, it was by no means guaranteed. Hence the softclaim. I didn't want to be targeted. I softclaimed to let town know why I wasn't using the power in the last moments of day 2 and try to scare off scum kill attempts. I was, essentially, hedging my bets and trying to put the odds in my favor without lying to town.

Well, well, well.

The first sentence means you lied.  I don't think you're going to get away with "I forgot about the townies shouldn't lie thing" after the Tom fiasco.

Next up, we've got "I didn't want to be targeted."  If you seriously had a 50% chance of dodging a kill (but only for that night?  or is that permanent evade?  why won't you say?) then WHY DIDN'T YOU WANT TO BE TARGETED?  Do I even have to explain this?  If you're playing on Team Town, why would you lie in the hopes of keeping yourself from being targeted when your being targeted has a 50% chance of shutting down the scum's nightkill and preventing any townie death?

Yeah, I wasn't sure until now but that seals it.  ##VOTE: Andrew