Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

[OblivionKnight]

Heh.  I'm afraid to go to the bathroom now - there'll be 5 new pages of content after peeing, probably >_>

And, like Shale, I want to spread some love around a bit.

##Vote: Ciato

This feels a bit mean, but...she's talked about wanting someone else to take over.  I can appreciate being caught up in other, more important things than mafia (WHAT?!), but you're posted in Pretty Princess Mafia!  They're small posts (and jokes), but there's a lot more of them there than in here.  What I've heard you say so far is, as Shale said, questions for additional clarification or a "what's going on?" process.

I just want to hear something from you!  You've not said much here so far!  As you said, you're busy, which I can appreciate, but...please come back!  I miss you ;_;

[VySaika]

Alright, as the current line of conversation is going "let's talk about something besides Quietrogueshyr", then let's do just that.

Other people I'm looking at right now:

Alex: Has previously felt like a leading townie, but I've seen him pull the leading townie act as scum before. And...uh...I'll second the cries of "WHAT" from Shale, Andy and Tonfa right now. Suggesting Andy vig himself? That's just pointless. Sure, it'd work out real well for us if he was scum, but if he was, then he wouldn't do it anyway, and if he's not scum, then it's a damn stupid move. So, uh, yeah, explain your logic on that one. And since nobody else has commented on someting else Andy brought up re: Alex, let me drag it back out into the spotlight for a moment:

From this post: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5399#msg5399

When you fished for cop counterclaims (and finally got QR to bite)

Andy's not the only one who sees that as putting words in his mouth, so to speak. QR's claim doesn't seem in response to Andy's fishing at all. It's because she was his #1 target for the vig. Maybe you're connecting the two, but they seem to be very seperate issues to me.

Tonfa: Tonfa, I've got to say Right Back At Ya, pal. I've got pretty much a nil read on you, mainly due to you not saying much. I'm not sure how I'm not pinging on your radar one way or another though, as I'm trying to put out content and let folks get a read on me. Got any specific questions for me? Anything in particular you'd like to hear me talk about? I'm happy to answer whatever you've got, man.

Ciato: uh, post moar plz? And, not with oneliners? I've forgotten you were playing a couple of times so far. I..this is all I really have on you. You think I look suspect? How? Why? What did I do or not do to provoke this feeling? Same offer I made to Tonfa goes to you. Got questions? Bring 'em on, I'll answer as best I can. I don't like people having null reads or vague reads on me, so fire away. You'll at least be talking then, y'know?

Andy: I can certainly understand the "Andy is likely third party" mindset, as he really does seem too good to be true. But...we could very well have someone that powerful on our side, and if we do, it'd be a shame to lose him to paranoia. Also, Alex seems to be the main one calling for Andy's head, and with Alex looking as bad as he does right now....

I'll have more thoughts on Andy after we see the vig happen, of course. But for now, I'm supposed to be talking about other people, right?

Other then that, I'm still kinda leery of the kappa, but ciato is a bigger lurker right now, and I've still got a good town read on Hal and Carthrat. Everyone else, well, they've really either gotten lost in the the Quietrogueshyr mess, or I just have minor reads on them one way or another, so I'm not going to do a Full List post.

[QuietRain]

In reading back over Alex' posts, I find myself seeing nothing much offensive in them.  Maybe this is colored by the fact that he actually believes me (or at least says he does, not discounting the fact that he could be a scum using my vig in an hour as a way to say he's backing a townie).

In looking back,

Pointed out that Andrew was not being honest about his ability to post way back after the end of the joke phase Day 1.

Defends WHY scumtells are good for town to the uninformed/clueless.

Stays doggedly on Tom until the claim and then promptl unvotes on the basis that killing a claimed cop is bad juju.

Votes Strago and berates everyone for not jumping off the Tom train.

Calls me out that my staying on the Tom train made me look scummy.  And proceeded to push me to argue why I was so convinced that Tom was scum.

Much like everyone else, dies a little death at the LyingTom reveal.

Goes after Patchy for her noncommital comments and low volume posts.

Tosses out the idea that Andy looked like he was fishing for a cop counterclaim.

Suggests that Andrew should use his ability On Day 2  because his chances for survival seemed slim to him despite Andrew's confidence.

States he believe my claim and suggests vigging Tai to verify.

Suddenly understands what Tai ISN'T saying and says leave him alone.  (o.O I wish I could figure out what you guys are talking about but I really give up on this one.  I'll just wait for the reveal one way or another)

Votes to lynch Andy after the vig

All this and an OVERABUNDANCE of love for Chen.

When I look it all over, I don't see the scummy bent people see.  Maybe it's just that he's made the apparent social faux pas of saying he believes me *grin*.  My opinion is that I don't see scum tells from Alex.  It's possible to read him either as a scum being VERY good at trying to pretend townie or as a townie.  I believe the latter at the moment.

Now, the statement about Andy vigging himself, yeah, I think that was bonkers.  But I don't think it's scummy.  Maybe I just have WAY too high of a regard for Alex when he plays scum that he wouldn't say something that out there while TRYING to blend in with the townies.  I think he was thinking out loud and the idea was very reminiscent of Smodge's comment way back at game start (not a good one and what were you thinking-esque).

[AndrewRogue]

RAID WARNING: SAKUYA BOMBS IN ~40 MINUTES. QR IS CURRENTLY LEAD CANDIDATE. IF THIS IS NOT CORRECT, PLEASE CORRECT IT ASAP. A VOTE COUNT/VIG COUNT WOULD BE NICE.

[Shale]

The problem with his suggestion of suicide by vig, for me at least, is that it's highly reminiscent of his last scum gambit in PW, where he basically tried to leverage a bunch of power roles into getting townies to lie down and die for the greater good, and I've never seen him do anything similar other than in that game.

[Nitori]

Man, you go off for two hours and a bunch of stuff appears. I don't know how I managed to miss that statement in Alex's post, but as said before, it sounds...incredibly, incredibly stupid (Not to mention he posts about how valuable it is earlier) . That combined with his attack on Hal (which a lot of people, including me, felt was unjustified.) makes me feel that Alex is trying to spread suspicion away from himself, I think. And he actually does seem to have flipped over to the opinion of vigging QR. "Huh, now you've got me actually wavering more towards QR being the better vig target." on reply #600. Seems like he's trying to dance about the fences a little.

The lynch comes after the vig, I guess, and depending on how the vig goes down there could be a lot of options besides Andy. It seems like wind is shifting towards the Ciato-chu, and she has asked for a replacement...I'd go against that, actually. If she really can't participate, we might as well see her modkilled rather than waste the lynch on her. Other than that...hm. I do think Alex had a valid enough point on Otter's disappearing act, but not on the fact that he had low content posts. I think I'll vote Alex or Andy, not quite sure yet, it depends a lot on the dayvig and how that will work.

[OblivionKnight]

The vig suicide is troubling, yes, but I read it as more of a push against someone he truly believes is scum, like in Random Mafia.  It IS troubling, as I said, but it's...it seems like there's something he thinks he can get out of it.  

If Alex thinks Andy's going to betray town and nuke someone town instead of who we vote for or otherwise turn traitor, a push to get him to kill himself would be designed mostly to get a truth testing response.  

I guess.

I don't fully believe it, and am going to watch Alex definitely.  The call for suicide does seem very...flucklebuklish, but it's possible there's a reason behind it.  

Nonetheless, it bears watching and investigation post kill.

[OblivionKnight]

Doesn't really change my votes, though.  Still going for QR then Ciato.  Alex has generally been very townie-supportive, so I'd like to see more how his reaction to the vig goes.

[AndrewRogue]

RAID WARNING: 15 MINUTES UNTIL SAKUYA BOMB. QR IS STILL THE LEADING TARGET. IF THIS IS WRONG, TELL ME NOW. I WOULD LOVE A VOTE/VIG COUNT BEFORE I DO THIS.

[Shale]

When did Ciato ask for a replacement, anyway? I can't find it in this topic or the sign-up one.

[OblivionKnight]

It was in chat last night around the time QR and Tai did their claim spree.

[OblivionKnight]

GODDAMN LACK OF EDIT!

She said she'd still play if she can't find anyone, though

[OblivionKnight]

Andy: Last I checked, QR was at -2 to 'hammer'.  Lemme check again to be sure

ANYONE ELSE WHO WANTS TO COUNT WOULD BE APPRECIATED

[Kilgamayan]

Catching up, catching up...

[Luther Lansfeld]

I don't really have a lot to add. I think Otter's acting terribly suspicious, seems to be leaping all over menial things, but I'm not sure if this is a scum-tell or an Otter tell. I think Andrew is probably not being honest (personally, I'm wondering if he has daily kills and is just using this one as his "Hey guys I'm a townie, let's be frieeends~" thing) and I think he's being terribly mean to QR, which I find fairly yucky regardless of if she's scum or not. I think QR saw the danger to her that Andy posed and decided to try to save herself with this, but it backfired horribly because she investigated a miller. The theory of them both being scum is something I find pretty damn unlikely and pretty weird in fact. Alex is acting very gung-ho and paranoid, which I'm not sure what that even means, but I don't think he's ill-intended. Hal's sort of closed-minded defense of QR slightly scares me, but this could be because I don't see the huge benefit of lynching Tai since the motive is fishy at best for Tai to do that. I don't know what to think. The situation is really weird.

But honestly, I think this issue has been hashed enough, wouldn't you say?

Ciato. It... really comes down to her defence of Miasma. I cannot *stand* this idea that there's some kind of threshold where bad play becomes a towntell. Furthermore, I don't understand how people can really support these people as town. I agree with what Alex has said; awful play is easy to avoid. Especially for people who have games of mafia under their belt... which Miasma, apparently, does.

Relevant Links.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4718#msg4718
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4735#msg4735

So you're suggesting that I be daykilled because I THOUGHT THAT MIASMA CAME OFF AS FRUSTRATED WITH MAFIA RATHER THAN SCUM, WHICH WAS EXACTLY THE CASE? This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life! What is wrong with you people? Because you people don't seem to understand the value of looking at the circumstances of things over instead of lynching townies because YOU REFUSE TO THINK "Huh, maybe this person is emotional and takes personal offense to things that happen in Mafia".

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". This is honestly what I have seen in the past few Mafia games I've played in. People do these things out of frustration/lack of understanding of how Mafia works, but they are railroaded and lynched for them anyway. I have seen one instance out of a lot more that have actually turned up scum, and yet no one seems to even pay this any mind. Allowing the entire Mafia world around them blend into the background in mindless pursuit of someone who plays the game differently, someone who is obviously incapable of dealing with the environment or someone who just plain doesn't understand how to play Mafia without making waves.

People keep saying "That's the only way we catch scum!" Bullshit. Most generally agreed on lynch due to this (see, Super from FFT, Monkey from WoT, smodge and Tom from various games, miasma from this one) ARE WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. Plus since the mob seems content to go with the flow on this, there are rarely useful scumtells gleaned from it. It's frustrating to be someone who wants to find scum when scum are lurking in the shadows of all these stupid, melodramatic, drawn-out debates which cost us nothing more than time to catch scum. What, at the end of the day, did the two-day debacle do for us? Do you see people debating about who voted for whom? No.

If there's a flaw in the plans, I think your plans should be changed. LaL has lynched more scum than lynching bad players on Day 1 from the games I've played, and until you can convince me that this oh-so-brilliant idea of lynching people like Tom and miasma yields rewards, I will continue to be up everyone's ass about it. And if you think I'm scummy for it, well, you can... what's the nice way to put this... there is no nice way to state what goes here.

Why haven’t I been posting? Mostly because this post made me so angry that I… I don’t know. All I try to do is be someone who is lenient and forgiving to people who I feel like are being treated badly, and hearing comments that this makes me look bad just makes me feel like… hitting something! Honestly I’m just tired of Mafia. I can’t help but take personal offense to certain things, and this is one of the things that I do. I don’t mind being called scummy for lurking or talking too much in other games or being too headstrong, but being called scummy for being too nice really upsets me. I don't think Rat is scum, but he just... I... I can't deal with this.

[AndrewRogue]

RAID WARNING: SAKUYA BOMB IN ~5 MINUTES, OR WHENEVER I GET BACK FROM CLASS (5-10 minutes), WHICHEVER COMES LATER.

[Kilgamayan]

Let's Play Danmaku Detective Game! Vote Count:

QuietRain (6): Smodge13, CarthRat, Yakumo, Taishyr, El Cideon, Gatewalker, Nitori, Corwin
Tonfa (1): Halbarad
Corwin (0): Yakumo
AndrewRogue (2): Otter, Ran
Alex/Ran (1): AndrewRogue
Ciato (2): Shale, OblivionKnight

Love Count:

Chen (2): Yukari, Ran
Everybody (1): Taishyr
Marisa (2): Arisu, Ran

Discipline Count:

Ran (1): Yukari

With 17 people still alive, 9 votes is a majority.

Little under 41 hours to go.

[Shale]

Just a note, since somebody said that QR would be at -2 to lynch with the 1-vote penalty from a post of less than 100 words: That post was ~140 words. Yes, I checked.

[OblivionKnight]

Speaking of which...after Andy declares the kill, is that considered a "hammer" with no posting?

[Shale]

Re: Ciato. Well....yeah, you've got a point. I could take issue with some circumstances (Monkey was trying to get scumhammered in WoT, for instance), but you definitely had the right of it on Day 2. In our defense, we would be talking about the Mia lynch if not for the overriding probability that QR's copclaim has exposed someone as scum.

[Halbarad]

To Ciato: My defense of QR is not hugely based in her post content or any other such thing; it is merely a logical assertion that if we are using the vigging of one of the two to help determine the guilt or innocence of the other, it makes more sense to lynch the non-cop claim first, rather than the cop claim - since if we guess wrong to begin with, we've sacrificed the weaker of the two roles. As I've said, I get a gut impression of townie from QR, but I cannot and will not ask other people to vote based on my own gut feelings.

With that said, I'll go ahead and do ##ANDY: Taishyr, for all that it won't make a difference.

[OblivionKnight]

Ciato: I do agree that LaL is a good strategy.  The issue with the past few days and doing that is that there have been smokescreens set up, like you said.  I do agree with you that these have been AWFUL for the town, as...well, look at what happened?  Unfortunately, I feel these need to be dealt with.  In the last two days?  Should have avoided them, but it got flared up (probably with some scum support in there).  Today?  We need to sort through QR/Tai, as finding the truth does help a lot in this instance - it should mostly clear someone, and lead us to more data.  

But I do agree with pretty much everything you said - even looking at Random Mafia and everything else, the lurkers were the scum, and that's the initial lead.  I think Alex even said this earlier.  

But yes, we need to move past this and look at lurkers.  In this situation, using the day kill to fix this shitstorm is probably our best bet - going from there, it should be lurker death

[AndrewRogue]

Deadline up.

##Kill: QR

[Kilgamayan]

The silence from the brutal scene they had just witnessed carried on even after Eirin and Alice returned from the shrine interior. It was Sikieiki who finally broke it.

"I hate to sound selfish after something like that, but I really do need to return to work. Before I go, though, let me have a look in my mirror to read the sins of those present to see who's responsible for this carnage."

Sakuya smirked. "I don't really think that's necessary, Yama."

Sikieiki looked over to Sakuya and was somewhat surprised to see a drawn knife in her hand, though she did not show it beyond raising an eyebrow. "I sincerely hope you're not threatening me. It'll take more than that little piece of cutlery to deal with the afterlife. Are you perhaps threatened by what I might see if I looked at your sins? Maybe you're the one responsible for this mess? Or maybe you're too ashamed of admitting to betraying your own species in the name of one of its mortal enemies?"

"I fear nothing you would see about me in that mirror, and even you would be fairly impressed at just what such a 'little piece of cutlery' can do."

Sakuya's grin disappeared. She drew her arm across her torso, held the knife between here fingers, and fired it, splitting the Judge of Hell between the eyes.

Sikieiki's expression remained unchanged. She casually grabbed the handle of the knife and pulled it out of her forehead, tossing it on the ground behind her. She then reached behind her, grabbed onto something, and pulled, revealing two more knives that had been stuck in her back. She tossed these aside as well.

"Sorry, but I can't say I'm impressed. Nevertheless, I understand what value my offer holds with the rest of you. I shall depart back to my throneroom to catch up on the backlog that has surely built up while I was wasting my time here. Good day."

With that, the Yama turned and walked away.

"I will not forget this, maid. As impossible as it is, you had best pray we never meet again."

---

QuietRain, playing Sikieiki Yamaxanadu (SuperCop, TOWN-ALIGNED) has been killed!

All votes for QuietRain are null and void.

With 16 people still alive, it takes 9 to lynch. You have 36.5 hours to make up your mind.

[Shale]

..........

##VOTE KILGAMAYAN

Supercop + Miller? @#$!@#$#!!@#ing BASTARD MOD.