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Author Topic: P4 Ranking Hype/Discussion *SPOILERS of course why would you think otherwise*  (Read 12368 times)

Nitori

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Preface: aiel stop spamming your FM4/XS crossover selfinsert fanfiction at me I'll make a P4 ranking topic okay~?

So this topic discusses the ranking of P4 and things we would rank from it. Based on general impressions from what I have seen and not heard, it seems the common consensus is to DNR Mr. MC, and that all the other PCs are Middle-bait yet again (a few borderliners but they can win their way up.)

Bosses...only one of them is really rankable apparently and that boss is Super Spoilers McGee (Adachi) to a massive extent, so much so that I'm doubletagging the name for spoilers~! Apparently the last time you guys did this you waited for a while or something, and it hasn't been that long since P4 came out so you probably want to do that again. I don't really care about McGee so I'll just go with the rest of you decide.

Anyway, talk, debate, eat cake, etc.
<Ko-NitoriisSulpher> roll 1d100 to grade Nitori?
<Hatbot> ACTION --> "Ko-NitoriisSulpher rolls 1d100 to grade Nitori? and gets 100." [1d100=100]

Jo'ou Ranbu

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If P4 got ranked, well...


Definite ranks: Yosuke, Chie, Teddie, Yukiko, Kanji and Naoto.

These are self-explanatory. PCs, obvious ranks.

People I could say "okay" to: Kunino-Sagiri, Ameno-Sagiri, Evil Kenji.

Evil Kenji's deal is pretty much the same as Kato. Dunno how much people care about keeping the idea spoilers-free, given the DL is a spoilertastic community to begin with. He's a bigger spoiler tag than Isolde (who also got a few talks about this issue earlier in MK ranking talks), and in a game that makes a much bigger deal of his position in the plot than Isolde's. Wouldn't mind ranking him, entertaining if weakish dueller, but I wouldn't oppose waiting - or not ranking him at all, since he'd probably get lost in the FW shuffle.

Kunino-Sagiri is easy: rank him as Kunino instead of his other possibility, all crises averted. Loses the plot relevance without the nametag? Maybe, but it's still the second-most memorable boss fight in the game, and unlike P3 bosses, P4 rankable bosses generally make neat duellers. I'd dislike the idea of ranking him as his other moniker, though, since this would bring stupid plot discussion and I don't want that.

Ameno-Sagiri is even easier. The strike against him, though, is his Necrontastic appearance. He's not stupid powerful like Necron and at least has lines (<_<), but he has deus ex machina plot relevance and that's it. Hugely remarkable fight, but.

Who cares: Izanami

Another spin on Ameno-Sagiri, about as Necrontastic with a dash of "JUST AS DANNED". Less striking a fight than Ameno-Sagiri and has the potential for -actual interp issues- due to her formchain shenanigans, so I'd be happier if we didn't bother.

OK will die - AKA stay out of the DL: Souji

Same ol' interp trainwreck as Minato. Being actually beatable doesn't make you any more sound as a ranking idea with the disasterriffic bases. Stay the fuck out.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 06:29:51 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Pyro

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Definite: Non-Souji PCs.

Sure: The Killer, Ameno-Saigiri, Izanami


Not sure on Souji and Kunino Saigiri. Souji is a bit of a mess with what he can do (inheritance, etc...). Kunino-Saigiri kinda feels outside the norm for ranks. (Ameno-Saigiri is Necronlike but gets enough and is a DISCO EYEBALL). Granted HIPPY JESUS is pretty up there for uniqueness too but might offend random people, you never know.

Divisions are a bit of a curious but the PC cast is all generally a shade of High Middle? Lots of plusses going for them in general with equipment and Endure and generally nice skillsets.

Killer = Middle of some flavor I'm thinking? Ameno Saigiri = decent Godlike. Izanami = High Godlike.

Hunter Sopko

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Could treat Souji like an FF8 character and hold him to Izanagi! We need more EPIC LIGHTS!

Jo'ou Ranbu

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This idea happened back in P3 and it was named Orpheus. It certainly doesn't help Souji's ranking hopes any.

EDIT: I know it's a joke, but I think it just bears noting that we've seen that nice boat sailing before.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 06:49:21 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Niu

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To the defense of Ameno Sagiri, he isn't as bad as Necron. He at least appeared once before the final show down.

074

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Are you talking about the dream?  Because I'm pretty sure that was Izanami, despite Bewildering Fog.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

IhatethisCPU

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That was Izanami, yeah.

Rank: Yosuke (Heavy), Chie (Middle), Yukiko (Middle), Kanji (...I think Middle. Didn't use him much.), Naoto (Middle), Mitsuo (Heavy, fraggin' Ghastly Wail.), The Killer (...I'm thinking Light, actually.), Kunio-Sagiri (Heavy), Ameno-Sagiri (Heavy), Izanami (Heavy).

Not Sure: Souji (If we're going purely by story-line, InO should work fine. Use the legal fusible form from the second play-through. >_>' Really. P4 NG+ is the same game as before, just with whatever money you didn't use before the end of the first playthrough.)

Been meaning to ask, but do we assume that Souji maxed out the Investigation team S-links, or do they keep their first form Personas?
You wanna know when I'm gonna be there?
I'll tell you EXACTLY when I'm gonna be there...

When you least expect it.

Sierra

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Definite Rank: Non-Souji PCs.

Possibly Rank: Izanami. Ignore the BS plot moves just like we ignore Zio's barrier and I don't see anything wrong with her. Also, having a Japanese goddess ranked = doubleplus coolness.

Wait: The Killer. Too spoilertastic, too soon. We waited with Kato, we could and should do it here. My position on Hippy Jesus is pretty much the same.

Don't Give a Damn: Eye in the Sky.

Talaysen

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Not Sure: Souji (If we're going purely by story-line, InO should work fine. Use the legal fusible form from the second play-through. >_>' Really. P4 NG+ is the same game as before, just with whatever money you didn't use before the end of the first playthrough.)

The second playthrough form is not legal because it is second playthrough.  You also keep demon compendium and max rank S.Link items and social stats, so it is NOT the same game as before.

Excal

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Except the only reason it's seen as Second playthrough is because that's the only time you get to freely play around with it.  Otherwise, InO is exactly like the Glance Reviver.

Talaysen

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Except the only reason it's seen as Second playthrough is because that's the only time you get to freely play around with it.  Otherwise, InO is exactly like the Glance Reviver.

If the InO you got in the final battle WAS the same as the one in NG+, then you might have a point.  But it's not.

Niu

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Are you talking about the dream?  Because I'm pretty sure that was Izanami, despite Bewildering Fog.

No, I am talking about the Kuma Shadow

OblivionKnight

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Rank: All PCs (Soji included), both New World Fools definitely.  Xorn's cousin and the frue final I don't think are as majorly important, but I'm fine with them as well.

Soji - Godlike.  Pretty easy explanation.

Yosuke - High Middle.  He...could do Low Heavy, with decent durability, and the heal-locking option of Garudyne -> Brave Blade.  Fast, healing, sukukaja...he's overall good, really, with lots of options.

Chie - ..similar to Yosuke.  Power Charge -> heal lock with BUFULA.  High Counter keeps her alive a bit more, she has some speed, and durability...could be a lot worse.  Also has some neat options.

Yukiko - Middle.  Durability is better than expected, and her damage is excellent, if resistable.  The weakness sucks nuts, and she's not particularly fast, but she has a bunch of options for status and loads of healing.

Kanji - High Middle.  Heal locks with Ziodyne -> Primal Force.  Has freakish durability, which can be boosted.  Somewhat slow, but equipment options again are nice.

Rise - Godlike, as always.  She's so adorable.

Teddie - Middle.  Yukiko with...a bit less of everything, worse resistances...and he still ends up decent. 

Naoto - High Middle, maybe higher.  Can get fast ID, and can (kind of) heal-lock with Mind Charge Megidolaon -> physical, though her durability makes this dubious at best.

New World Hippie - Excellent durability.  Good damage, especially when boosted.  Has evade.  The slowness sucks a bit, and the control phase he hates, but he's good enough for Godlike.

The Killer - High Middle.  Instant death with high accuracy alone puts him in Middle.  Physical resistance is excellent, and Heat Riser helps for the 3 actions it lasts.  Decent, at least.

Xorn's Cousin - Godlike, easily.  The overkill phases are evil.

Frue Final - Godlike.  Two forms of excellent damage and durability.  Tricks. 
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Oh right, rankings for the even remotely plausible ranks.

Yosuke - High Middle. I'm still convinced he's pretty solid. I'm still not convinced he can swing any higher, though. I guess that the Auto-Endure does tip him into High Middle territory, at worst.

Chie - Heavy. Turn-two mass overkill and neat equip options off decent speed. Then, we have Miori Shirt insanity. Doesn't get as much out of Auto-Endure as her peers, but considering how difficult spoiling her delayed overkill can be, this is often hardly an issue.

Yukiko - High Middle. The frailty... honestly doesn't matter as much with the solid damage, elemental spoiling and equipment possibilities, and she's well off against other Middle healers. Auto-Endure also sees plenty of use with the damage. Ice-weak, but it's not the worst weakness you could have. Unlike...

Teddie - Middle. Lightning weakness sucks ass. Otherwise, Yukiko with slightly more physical durability, less resource depth and notably worse equip options and elemental spoilage. The weakness pushes him back enough to lose the "high" spot to me.

Kanji - High Middle? Sorta like Chie, but sorta not. Trades a notable amount of speed, cannonballing power and the Auto-Sukukaja option for somewhat more consistent damage and a lot of durability. Losing trade, but both are fairly effective at their game.

Naoto - Middle/Heavy. Okay, so she's a pure ID whore. But she's a pure ID whore who's decently speedy, and I consider her ID turn one due to respecting its hit rate from in-game mucking a bit more. Add to that the Auto-Endure and she... just tends to get the turns to ID people, and she has the awesome of female equip options -and- a nice elemental spoiling set. She is obviously pretty lost against those who mock the ID unless they suck at slugfesting/durability, but... the set of spoiling+I win status gets a whole damned lot of PCs. And hey look what happened with Nina2 and Jean, who reamed Middle seasons off ID alone. Naoto's ID may not be anywhere near as accurate (70-75% < 85%-95%), but she has more tools to get the turns she needs than those two. So yeah.

Kunino-Sagiri - Heavy. The durability is certainly pretty excellent (think I peg him at 2.5x PC HP). Being stuck with 4HKO DAMAGE AW YEAH at full HP and always losing the first turn just fails, though, and while his spoiling game is neat, he  doesn't even come close to a OHKO to average durability at his best, and it always needs those wind-up turns (to put it up at first and when Quad Converge runs out). Then he reaches 25% HP and he's stuck with 3HKO damage forever and ever. He's just utterly lost against Heavy-level healers, and Godlike slugfesters make him weep beyond all reason. Full elemental walling can also get him, although it's rare. Handling the likes of Emily and Alena is also problematic for him, since Quad Converge only gets elemental magic: he's just as vulnerable to physicals as anyone else, modest evasion aside.

Evil Kenji - Middle. Turn two ID and Heat Riser are neat! However, he always goes last. Oh, and he's running off like 0.7x PC HP. But wait, he also uniformly 4HKOs as a backup! Winning combination there. The physical resistance gives him some staying power against Middle physicallers, at least, and he has those elemental immunities to help him out. Gives him spoiling power, I guess, but he's pretty hilariously inept when he has to face ID immunity or 3HKOer mages in general. Fun little bugger in his incompetence, at least.

Ameno-Sagiri - Godlike. My respect for him went down a fair bit due to realizing the middling durability+losing initiative combo is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. 1.5x~-ish PC HP doesn't give you a ton of leeway when you always start injured. The double-acting+notable offense of both types+P4 debuffs+Bewildering Fog setup mass is brutal, though. Even has a cruel PC-killing move at very low HP, but, as I said before, I'd be impressed if a PC managed to get through the offense, debuffs and limit phases and got yanked by a 25% HP range PC-killing move. >_>

Izanami - High Godlike. I allow the two phases and those three free turns (the formchain, plot weirdness aside, seems pretty legal, since there's no out-of-battlescene transition and even buffs/debuffs remain). So, we get someone who starts with... 3/4s of Evil Kenji's HP (that's honestly veering into Chidori durability territory by -that- point), no doubleacting and her best offense is low 2HKO Lightning damage. However, you OHKO her and now she gets three turns for free to smack you while she gets ready to change into her big bad (but still sorta frail. Ameno-Sagiri HP and you're about five levels higher. Not a negligible difference) form. So, the opponent has to enter Ameno-Sagiri's raw slugfesting/debuffing power, more accessible status and better physical offense with a 1.5x PC HP disadvantage in the damage race that ensues. Oh and she halves physicals and immunes Lightning, because she totally needed spoiling powars. This package is some seriously scary shit. She feels honestly beatable enough (really high-end PCs could possibly blow through that package with the relatively free time she gives them for buffing, for an instance, and durability gods can withstand the assault long enough to peg her down, especially with the relatively poor durability on the second form), but damned if she isn't frightening. Of course, you disallow the first form and now she's Ameno-Sagiri with -less HP- and no Bewildering Fog. That's still a Godlike, but so much worse it's not even funny. <_<
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 11:26:41 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Talaysen

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Ameno-Sagiri - Godlike. My respect for him went down a fair bit due to realizing the middling durability+losing initiative combo is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. 1.5x~-ish PC HP doesn't give you a ton of leeway when you always start injured. The double-acting+notable offense of both types+P4 debuffs+Bewildering Fog setup mass is brutal, though. Even has a cruel PC-killing move at very low HP, but, as I said before, I'd be impressed if a PC managed to get through the offense, debuffs and limit phases and got yanked by a 25% HP range PC-killing move. >_>

What PC-killing move?

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Ameno-Sagiri - Godlike. My respect for him went down a fair bit due to realizing the middling durability+losing initiative combo is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. 1.5x~-ish PC HP doesn't give you a ton of leeway when you always start injured. The double-acting+notable offense of both types+P4 debuffs+Bewildering Fog setup mass is brutal, though. Even has a cruel PC-killing move at very low HP, but, as I said before, I'd be impressed if a PC managed to get through the offense, debuffs and limit phases and got yanked by a 25% HP range PC-killing move. >_>

What PC-killing move?

Galgalim Eye. I -think- OK noted it as a 25%-unlocked attack.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

074

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Izanami actually absorbs lightning, not immunes, in her second form.  So, uh, spoils Geddoe and anyone else heavily Physical/Lightning dependent.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Izanami actually absorbs lightning, not immunes, in her second form. 

Practical effect is the same.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Talaysen

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Galgalim Eye. I -think- OK noted it as a 25%-unlocked attack.

Eh, that's just HP->1+nonfatal status.  Any dueller worth their salt could just finish him off after that.

Izanami actually absorbs lightning, not immunes, in her second form. 

Practical effect is the same.

Matters against DUAL PHYSICAL/LIGHTNING ATTACKS THAT CALCULATE THE PARTS SEPARATELY!!11  (Well, anything+lightning!)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Galgalim Eye. I -think- OK noted it as a 25%-unlocked attack.

Eh, that's just HP->1+nonfatal status.  Any dueller worth their salt could just finish him off after that.


HP->1+full stat halving off doubleacting is pretty evil (it's essentially a guaranteed PC kill if they don't dodge, and Enervation even hits evasion with a nerf stick). But I said I'd be impressed if someone lost to Galgalim Eye of all things for a reason, given the HP range it unlocks at. That'd be a bonafide PC killer if he could use it at full HP.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Talaysen

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...I forgot he could double act.  That does make it not suck!

Monkeyfinger

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and your respect for his HP is probably on the extremely low end. For others, that HP range is probably big enough that some defensive stallers (the kind who can buff up to surviving his overkill combo) can't get around it. Guys like Wren, or Yuri2.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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It's still 25% range, and at that point, Ameno-Sagiri had the opportunity to dole at least one Bewildering Fog buff combo (he has two ranges, one at 50% and one at 25%), which tends to kill... many, many, many things, most PCs included (it's nearly 2x PC HP non-elemental magic overkill. Has a two-turn windup, but Ameno is entirely invincible during it), even with buffing, and before that, he always has rather strong offense and the option of debuffing offense/defense/accuracy/evade and attacking at the same time. It's the main reason why Galgalim Eye feels sorta redundant, it activates by the point where BF had two shots to wreak havoc and he applies a lot of pressure at any point in the fight.

EDIT: Then, there's the fact that most people who have higher durability respect for him would probably also have more damage respect even past different scalings, I think I'm the one who takes the highest levels against P4 bosses from the people I've seen. Although you do have a point regarding Wren, even if I'm kneejerking he puts a lot of pressure on him off the bat (Ameno's full HP offense starts out at a "measly" 95%~ PC HP for me, and he does have an accurate Gravity move at full HP if he so cares, although 50% cHP could stand to be better and it's Holy elemental).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 02:29:11 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Monkeyfinger

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Beat.

I think we're going a bit too crazy ranking new stuff and will blanket no P4 if it comes up too soon. Ignoring that, though, and assuming, theoretically, that it will be ready for ranking when it comes up:

Rank: All PCs and Adachi.

My view on Souji is that anyone willing to comb through his list of high end personae when a tough match of his comes up and vote after doing that research should support his ranking, and anyone who can't be arsed should tell him to fuck off. I fall into the former category. If I can puzzle out matches involving the demifiend, and matches involving high end BG2 mages, Souji's a piece of piss.

As for Adachi, I reiterate everything I said about Kato: The only thing that ranking him reveals to non-players is that he, in some capacity, has a battle form. That's really not a spoiler worth fretting over. There are a million ways in which someone can end up with a boss form and Adachi's path, though a huge spoiler, isn't made obvious by saying "hey, he's a boss." FURTHERMORE, his fighting style and projected rank could very easily let him pass to non-players as part of the PC cast. This too applies to someone early in the game, since he appears to be the type of character who could join your party. So the spoiler concerns for him are a load of crap, and aside from that he's a textbook strong rank. Interesting in the DL without being overpowered, important to the plot, memorable.

Abstain: Izanami

Importance, memorability, and being the true final boss all bolster her strength as a ranking consideration. On the other hand she's missable, has a wide range of respect, and could be argued as overpowered for godlike at the highest range of it. similar rank to Loki, only with that last problem as an added consideration.

No: Sagiris

Kunino isn't as memorable as the other bosses, and has weird plot issues surrounding him that make it hard to decide what to even rank him as. Art issues don't help if we decide to call him Kunino.

Ameno is Izanami. I don't like separate ranking of 2 aspects of the same person. (Boot Id. But I'd never get anywhere pushing for that, he's too entrenched.)

If Izanami is ranked and Ameno is not, I would allow Izanami form choice between her final boss form and Ameno, with my usual restrictions on formchoice of course.

Rankings come later, as there's some things I am still hazy on which I need to sort out.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 06:38:29 AM by Monkeyfinger »