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Author Topic: P4 Ranking Hype/Discussion *SPOILERS of course why would you think otherwise*  (Read 12128 times)

OblivionKnight

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Since the topic is noted for spoilers...

Maybe I'm mis-remembering the scene, but...

From what I remember, Izanami says that Ameno was an aspect of her she gave life to as a test, and not specifically her in another form.  I forget the exact quote, but something akin to "You fought a part of me" or something.  Maybe I should go through and make a dialogue FAQ for this  >_>

Ameno...really seems separate.  Something related to this I've been meaning to ask - Niu, you're sure that was Ameno as Teddie's Shadow?  I know it was his voice, but maybe it was a fluke?  Where did that info come from?   
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

superaielman

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From what I remember, Izanami says that Ameno was an aspect of her she gave life to as a test, and not specifically her in another form.  I forget the exact quote, but something akin to "You fought a part of me" or something.  Maybe I should go through and make a dialogue FAQ for this  >_>

She says it's part of her very specifically once you hit the true ending path. I just saw it so it's fresh in my mind.

Quote
I think we're going a bit too crazy ranking new stuff and will blanket no P4 if it comes up too soon. Ignoring that, though, and assuming, theoretically, that it will be ready for ranking when it comes up:

What bothers you about it, not enough internal/time/doesn't meet standards?  It's the best of the new ideas this time, at least for the PC's. It not meeting standards is fair enough, but it's shockingly good in spite of being a Persona title.


Ranks? Just the PC cast for now, minus Souji. Adachi is a massive spoiler and not one you can disguise effectively at all. This changes if we hold off on the game for several more months, but as it stands if it comes up for this period? I'd have serious issues ranking him. I don't think any of the other bosses are worth ranking. Ameno and the final are the same creature, so no go there. The final is massively missable, and that is not something I'd call a strong selling point from an SMT game. Drawing concerns come into play there as well, along with divisional split. Monkey hits on the problems well enough.

The way the bosses come out, waiting and ranking them as a FW package down the line strikes me as ideal, as all of them have problems.


Quote
Kunino stuff
.

He has precisely zero lines in the game till he appears and is extremely unmemorable up to that point. I found him memorable enough as a boss, but I'm agreeing with your overall kneejerk there.  You can also argue it's his shadow and augh. Pass for now.


Far as being Bluelike goes- Is Souji stronger than say Yuna in the DL? Assuming skill inheritance.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 01:50:38 AM by superaielman »
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Cmdr_King

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Without running the numbers a la "Souji vs Godlike" topics, I lean towards yes.  Among things:
- He can competely smash the speed curve if he so desires.
- In conjunction, his potential turn-1 damage is around 1400 with his best move and Auto-Tarukaja.  Physical, mind, but still painful.
- He can theoretically give himself full elemental immunity with a combo of innates and Null/Reflect/Absorb skills.  This means that he can likely shut down anyone without non-elemental magic (Or things like Jenna's Bhariva, the point is that 'Physical' is a P4 element.)
- The kicker; he has to be killed twice to be knocked to 1 HP.  It's obscure as fuck, but he has the Enduring Soul skill, which restores him to full HP upon death OPB.  He also has an accessory with the Endure effect the rest of the cast gets.  Thing is, these... stack.  So even durable, non-elemental sluggers (for example Zophar) can likely be slugged down.
- In conjunction with the above, he also laughs off ID (ID counts as being reduced to 0 HP, so you have to hit him with it twice to do any damned good, again).

So ultimately, the only 'safe' way to beat him is to be durable enough to take a hit and have a non-ID fatal status (so, uh... loses to JECHT).  Even people with sufficently high PDef to withstand his primary damage, like Fou-Lu, I'm not convinced can slug it out in the face of his durability and competent magic damage (though certainly it's LESS insane, probably in the 700 range with full boosting and Auto-Taru.)
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OblivionKnight

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From what I remember, Izanami says that Ameno was an aspect of her she gave life to as a test, and not specifically her in another form.  I forget the exact quote, but something akin to "You fought a part of me" or something.  Maybe I should go through and make a dialogue FAQ for this  >_>

She says it's part of her very specifically once you hit the true ending path. I just saw it so it's fresh in my mind.

Quote
I think we're going a bit too crazy ranking new stuff and will blanket no P4 if it comes up too soon. Ignoring that, though, and assuming, theoretically, that it will be ready for ranking when it comes up:

What bothers you about it, not enough internal/time/doesn't meet standards?  It's the best of the new ideas this time, at least for the PC's. It not meeting standards is fair enough, but it's shockingly good in spite of being a Persona title.


Ranks? Just the PC cast for now, minus Souji. Adachi is a massive spoiler and not one you can disguise effectively at all. This changes if we hold off on the game for several more months, but as it stands if it comes up for this period? I'd have serious issues ranking him. I don't think any of the other bosses are worth ranking. Ameno and the final are the same creature, so no go there. The final is massively missable, and that is not something I'd call a strong selling point from an SMT game. Drawing concerns come into play there as well, along with divisional split. Monkey hits on the problems well enough.

The way the bosses come out, waiting and ranking them as a FW package down the line strikes me as ideal, as all of them have problems.


Quote
Kunino stuff
.

He has precisely zero lines in the game till he appears and is extremely unmemorable up to that point. I found him memorable enough as a boss, but I'm agreeing with your overall kneejerk there.  You can also argue it's his shadow and augh. Pass for now.


Far as being Bluelike goes- Is Souji stronger than say Yuna in the DL? Assuming skill inheritance.


SPOILERS BELOW!!!!!!!


She literally says that?  From what I've read and remember going through interpretations of:

Izanami gave 3 people the power of persona: Adachi, Namatame, and Seta.  She periodically tests humanity's resolve, and in this case, gave power to 3 people to see how they would use it.  The first person to really utilize it was Adachi.  Adachi's use told Izanami that perhaps humanity had come to the point where it needed "changing".  Thus, the fog and Ameno-sagiri were born out of Adachi's desires by Izanami's power (initially rooted in what she gave Adachi).  Adachi is in control when he's fought - once defeated, Ameno makes an appearance to test Soji and crew.  They've bested Adachi, who was driving the initial push to covering the world in fog.  Once beaten, Ameno ends it, as it's been shown that Adachi's way is not what humanity wants, or Soji would have lost.  From what I've always interpreted, Ameno was the aspect that grew from Adachi's desires, but is a completely separate entity.  This would be the end of the story, as Izanami's "test" is complete - however, Soji and crew keep searching, and now she wants to test them to see if humanity is strong enough to survive as is without more tests.  That's all of it in a nutshell, I think.

Taro...is him.  First, he's wounded after the battle - in the other "shadow" battles, the PC's are still ok enough to talk, stand, etc.  Second, the manifestation of his power is different.  He's never used it for anything but tossing people in to the TV.  Before the battle, his back is against the corner, and to his knowledge, he's trying to protect people.  Remember that the persona's power and potential grows based upon the person - hence the bloody Magatsu-Izanagi of Adachi vs. the glowing Izanagi-no-Okami.  Taro's back is to a corner, and remember that he still believes the TV world is safe and good.  Hence the appearance of his powered form - he views himself as a saviour (the halo, angelic robe) bringing about peace and justice (attack Unerring Justice, the peace sign he makes during battle), and his form reflects that.  Hence, I believe, IIRC, the scene has a bunch of black balls of energy flowing into him.  That's supposed to be him drawing the shadows unto himself (the "guardians" of the place) to protect the girl from what he believes are the killers.  The form takes his appearance and belief, though, still him in control.

...not sure if I'm arguing for ranking them or not, or just talking about Persona in general >_>
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

superaielman

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She literally says it's a piece of her, at least in the scene where she reveals herself. It's enough for me to want to kibosh an already shaky rank as far as the DL goes.


Enduring Soul I wouldn't call obscure, but yeah. You're talking about Nanako's accessory that you get for acing the last exam?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 05:24:00 AM by superaielman »
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Cmdr_King

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Correct.
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<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

OblivionKnight

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwRKBbcPDrk&feature=related

At about 2:20: Ameno-sagiri, ruler of the fog, is merely an aspect of myself that I birthed long ago.  I suppose this could be viewed as an actual part of her, but...don't see it like that.  Also, most of the extra info I've read confirms my thoughts.

NOT THAT THIS DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULDN'T HOLD OFF ON RANKING IZANAMI/AMENO ANYWAY.  >_>
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

superaielman

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Yosuke- High Middle. Misses that 2HKO for me even with a double Brave Blade. Threat of a crit or a double does help to lock things down some, and his healing and status has niche uses.

Chie- Heavy. Status and fast 2HKOers are a problem, but that turn two damage is hideous.The damage is good enough to splatter past most physical tanks. Death to Cmdr for putting her in Middle in his board tournament.

Kanji-High Middle? I have no idea, he's somewhere in the division.

Naoto- Middle. Gets that far on ID whoring and some speed. If you block ID, she is ~.

Teddie- Middle. Buff healer. Having non permanent buffs and speed problems keeps him from being too good.

Yukiko- Low Middle. Weak to ice+slow+no buffs. That'll work out well.

I don't consider Endure. Universal skill that makes the cast impossible to kill in a turn? Pass.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 02:58:15 PM by superaielman »
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Mad Fnorder

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Just to toss in my opinion- Rank Souji w/o inheritance, Rank all PCs w/ Endure and Final Personae, Adachi as Mysterious Killer or something, and Ameno.

Sierra

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Where does this universal Endure hype come from? Seconding Super in that anything that gives an entire cast that effect needs to be punted.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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L9 S. Link persona upgrade.

EDIT: I'm personally not too offended by it, given how it's very useful in-game and, honestly, it's not really all that imbalanced - i.e. doesn't quite get people out of their assigned division without those, and if it does, it's not by much. It's certainly a nice ability, but I hardly think it's broken as it stands, given its OPB nature. But YMMV.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 05:35:35 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Mad Fnorder

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L9 S. Link persona upgrade.

EDIT: I'm personally not too offended by it, given how it's very useful in-game and, honestly, it's not really all that imbalanced - i.e. doesn't quite get people out of their assigned division without those, and if it does, it's not by much. It's certainly a nice ability, but I hardly think it's broken as it stands, given its OPB nature. But YMMV.

Add in the fact that Souji doesn't get it- he has to equip for it, which means giving up his choice of two other top-notch unique accessories (+5 to all stats or a big bump in magic evasion), and it's genuinely interesting in a duel.

Cmdr_King

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Ultimately, I just see no compelling reason to disallow it.  While each character gets it, each does so independantly as part of their secondary development.  So it's not some artifact of the system that should be lost in translation, just an optional aspect of their skillset.  And of course it's not really all that broken.  Chie and Kanji really don't even benefit from it, and it doesn't save Naoto from the ID immune by any stretch.  (The other three, being mages, may well be able wring victory from an extra turn at times of course).

As for Chie?  *shrug* she can Power Charge -> ohko, yes, but... it costs her 22% HP.  Average damage faster than her is enough to completely spoil that.  Mind you, equipment options can make her quite fast, but I'm not sure how much durability she sacrifices for that (if it's a low enough loss, then yeah, she should be Heavy.)
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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I did some alternate equip speed averages in the topic. Going by the average I use, Chie herself is pretty fast (120% average speed under my interps, that's not bad by any stretch) and Rune Dresses aren't a big hit to durability, I think - still in the 300s range for defense, and the End boost should help mitigate the defense loss as well. I do take Rune Dresses as default, though, so the actual effect is that the defense averages are a bit lower and everything is already factored for.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dhyerwolf

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Only 120% speed (or less than that to me, I guess!) the first turn. So really it's anyone with above 110% speed with average damage that ruins the PC->GH game.
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Ultradude

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Well, she can grab another +5 Agi at the cost of... some damage. I'm not sure how much she loses equipping Sleipnir instead of her default; if it's still a decent OHKO she's probably gonna want it when going for it.
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superaielman

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Just to toss in my opinion- Rank Souji w/o inheritance, Rank all PCs w/ Endure and Final Personae, Adachi as Mysterious Killer or something, and Ameno.

Art is going to spoil Adachi either which way there.  Souji is likely a high Godlike even if you toss Inheritance; immuning physicals+any of the major elements shuts down a large portion of Godlike, and that ignores the brutal skillset. 
Quote
EDIT: I'm personally not too offended by it, given how it's very useful in-game and, honestly, it's not really all that imbalanced - i.e. doesn't quite get people out of their assigned division without those, and if it does, it's not by much. It's certainly a nice ability, but I hardly think it's broken as it stands, given its OPB nature. But YMMV.

It's a universal skill that has no claim to uniqueness that also makes the PC cast unkillable in a single round unless you're a multi acting character or have status they can't wall.  We don't allow things like Glory for say the TotA cast. The method of unlocking it is pretty moot; everyone can get the skill and everyone definitely wants it.

Quote
As for Chie?  *shrug* she can Power Charge -> ohko, yes, but... it costs her 22% HP.  Average damage faster than her is enough to completely spoil that.  Mind you, equipment options can make her quite fast, but I'm not sure how much durability she sacrifices for that (if it's a low enough loss, then yeah, she should be Heavy.)

Average damage of the right type- can't be ice and physicals have to get past her evade and high counter, plus be fast enough.
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

OblivionKnight

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Damage loss with Sleipnir is ~20-30 damage or so.  Rune Dress with +4 makes up for that mostly, though, so she really doesn't lose anything by going Sleipnir + Rune Dress.  Also, END is the entirety of magic defense, so Chie tanks magic much better with Rune Dress (and doesn't get hurt by physicals too much).  

Yeah, working on additional ideal stuff at the moment, as well as evasion and the like.  I don't consider them default for the topic since people (Yakko?) have questioned allowing that rare stuff (and Shale would too if he'd play the game!).

As for the Endure...it's entirely plot-wise in the character stuff.  Honestly, it's something you get as you get the persona upgrade, and you don't get them automatically.  Yes, cast-wide, but as Snow said, it's a benefit in-game.  I can see disallowing it, though - I just do allow it.  And it does kick people up a bit higher.  
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

OblivionKnight

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Art on Adachi...eh.  Honestly, doing a retrospective cohort analysis on Kato...would putting him up and doing a write-up REALLY be that much of a give-away?  I mean....


Though a mere police officer in a small town, that doesn't mean Adachi's out of the running for victory.  With the power of his persona granting resistance to physical attacks and immunity to light and dark, Adachi can work on taking down his opponent with his powerful physical and magical attacks.  Castings of Ziodyne or Vorpal Blade, supported by the soul-strengthening Heat Riser, will see him to victory.

I mean, that's the essence of a write-up, and even a bio.  And I know you yourself said no spoilers in bios, and those typically don't appear in write-ups.  I agree with MF here - it just says he has a battle form, which could just as easily be a PC (as noted in the topic).  As long as you don't say "lol killar", I think it's ok.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Pyro

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Re: Auto-Endure

It's an "optional" skill that they are assured to have in the DL unless you discount their upgraded Personas (which no one does). You're talking about outright ignoring the mechanics of the game to appease some desire to be 'fair'. If you consider them with the upgraded Personas then they by definition have Auto-Endure irrevocably as part of their skillset and as such have Auto-Endure in the DL. TO ignore that for the sake of fairness isn't much different than ignoring a heal spell that is gotten normally, or the attack+ skills that all MK PCs learn. It's a good ability that a bunch of the cast gets DL legally. This isn't new by any means (hi PS4. hi FFX).

At least no one would take a strong negative stance on allowing these and then turn around and hype Fire Emblem PCs getting counters. That would just be outright bloody lunacy of course.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 10:25:41 PM by Pyro »

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I do kinda question that rare stuff, because what it basically boils down to is that you're giving the characters rare drops from enemies.  Sure, they have to be altered in a store to become the equipment and then you buy it, but it's functionally the same.  I am not the most patient person in the world, but I spent some time in the dungeons while it was raining because I heard of these equips and still never saw most of them.  As far as I knew we didn't give characters drops unless it was exceedingly common for the equipment to drop?  This isn't common.  Maybe not terribly hard to farm, but the fact remains that it's farming drops.

superaielman

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Art on Adachi...eh.  Honestly, doing a retrospective cohort analysis on Kato...would putting him up and doing a write-up REALLY be that much of a give-away?  I mean....


Though a mere police officer in a small town, that doesn't mean Adachi's out of the running for victory.  With the power of his persona granting resistance to physical attacks and immunity to light and dark, Adachi can work on taking down his opponent with his powerful physical and magical attacks.  Castings of Ziodyne or Vorpal Blade, supported by the soul-strengthening Heat Riser, will see him to victory.

I mean, that's the essence of a write-up, and even a bio.  And I know you yourself said no spoilers in bios, and those typically don't appear in write-ups.  I agree with MF here - it just says he has a battle form, which could just as easily be a PC (as noted in the topic).  As long as you don't say "lol killar", I think it's ok.


The plot of 95% of the game is finding the killer and you don't fight a single clearly human foe till Adachi himself.  It'd help if there was like anything else remotely rankable that is human that's not part of the PC cast, but there's not.   


Quote
It's an "optional" skill that they are assured to have in the DL unless you discount their upgraded Personas (which no one does). You're talking about outright ignoring the mechanics of the game to appease some desire to be 'fair'. If you consider them with the upgraded Personas then they by definition have Auto-Endure irrevocably as part of their skillset and as such have Auto-Endure in the DL. TO ignore that for the sake of fairness isn't much different than ignoring a heal spell that is gotten normally, or the attack+ skills that all MK PCs learn. It's a good ability that a bunch of the cast gets DL legally. This isn't new by any means (hi PS4. hi FFX).


There are other games and systems that do this. TotA has a skill that just does precisely this with the auto revival, except you gain it from stats. Grandia 1 has magic spells that you *have* to have learned in order to cast unique spells that generally aren't allowed in the DL. This isn't PS4 being whorish with the healing, it's something every PC gets at the same S-level and is the exact same thing.


Quote
At least no one would take a strong negative stance on allowing these and then turn around and hype Fire Emblem PCs getting counters. That would just be outright bloody lunacy of course.

Disagree if you want, but save the passive aggressive stuff.
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

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Re: Auto-Endure

It's an "optional" skill that they are assured to have in the DL unless you discount their upgraded Personas (which no one does). You're talking about outright ignoring the mechanics of the game to appease some desire to be 'fair'. If you consider them with the upgraded Personas then they by definition have Auto-Endure irrevocably as part of their skillset and as such have Auto-Endure in the DL. TO ignore that for the sake of fairness isn't much different than ignoring a heal spell that is gotten normally, or the attack+ skills that all MK PCs learn. It's a good ability that a bunch of the cast gets DL legally. This isn't new by any means (hi PS4. hi FFX).

At least no one would take a strong negative stance on allowing these and then turn around and hype Fire Emblem PCs getting counters. That would just be outright bloody lunacy of course.

At least FE archers don't counter melee, and FE melee characters don't counter range. It's not universal, though a high enough percentage that I'm not offended to people throwing out counters as long as they reward people who are better at counters in other ways (see how Dhyer does it). Endure sounds completely universal, and hence, easy to see as illegal.

If FFT Angel Rings worked with a solo PC I still wouldn't allow the Reraise effect. I wouldn't change my mind if you moved this effect to an armour instead of an accessory, either. This sounds very similar. I point to FFT Reflect Mail as a precedent (and that's not even the entire cast!)... or Bari equips. Or FF5 Running Shoes if we ranked FF5 PCs somehow. Universal auto-statuses are basically always illegal to me.

Moot since I'll never play P4, but throwing it out there anyway.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

OblivionKnight

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Moot since I'll never play P4, but throwing it out there anyway.

;_;
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Pyro

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There there OK. Its not like you didn't know NEB's stance on Persona games. It'll be all right.

It's an innate effect that is acquired automatically and can not be turned off NEB. It isn't like an equip you can just ban.

The comparison to FE was because it was an innate trait instead of a usable skill, and one that everyone has. Also just as in FE some of the cast makes better use of it than others (Chie and Kanji will get about as much use out of it as FE archers get use out of counters). Besides that, people banning FE counters generally do it arguing that it is a part of the system rather than the characters. That isn't really a case here. The point is that it is an innate skill that is (almost) universal, as in FE. I'm using that as a point to say "yes you should allow it because we have been through something like this same situation before and in order to be consistent we ought allow it here."

As far as G1 magic goes, you can restrict the usage when playing the game. You can't restrict the Endure effect without actively hacking the game.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 01:37:18 AM by Pyro »