P4 Ranking Hype/Discussion *SPOILERS of course why would you think otherwise*

[superaielman]

The comparison to FE was because it was an innate trait instead of a usable skill, and one that everyone has. Also just as in FE some of the cast makes better use of it than others (Chie and Kanji will get about as much use out of it as FE archers get use out of counters). Besides that, people banning FE counters generally do it arguing that it is a part of the system rather than the characters. That isn't really a case here. The point is that it is an innate skill that is (almost) universal, as in FE. I'm using that as a point to say "yes you should allow it because we have been through something like this same situation before and in order to be consistent we ought allow it here."

As far as G1 magic goes, you can restrict the usage when playing the game. You can't restrict the Endure effect without actively hacking the game.

You can't have Ice Cut without water magic learned without actively hacking the game.  Sometimes mechanics work like that with Persona. I wouldn't force P3 into AI because it's universal to the cast besides Minato. You can't choose what they do in game without hacking.

It's an innate effect that is acquired automatically and can not be turned off NEB. It isn't like an equip you can just ban.

So if that S-Link was instead three rounds of damage immunity once they run out of HP, it'd still be legal? Or if it was innate perfect evasion to everything but Almighty damage, it'd still be legal?

[Ultradude]

...if I play Grandia 1 I have a feeling that I'm either allowing those earlier skills or banning the things they learn from them.

[superaielman]

Ice cut is completely unique, banning it would get you a shoe thrown at your head. The method you learn water magic for Justin is just a bit iffy thanks to Mana Eggs.

Universal cast skills are not legal.  Just because the method is slightly different in learning it here doesn't make it any better.

[Ultradude]

Eh... I'm trying to think of a game I know well enough that works like that, but nothing I'm really heavily knowledgeable about uses a system like that that I can remember. But... if the only way to learn Ice Cut was through that Mana Egg learned spell, then I'm probably allowing the spell? Disconnects between stuff that's really blatant "you MUST have illegal ability 'A' before you can ever learn perfectly legal ability 'B'" tend to bug me.

[superaielman]

Yeah, that is fair enough. It just makes a good example here. Full cast skills like that are pretty offensive by nature, and the stronger it is the worse it gets.  As I cited in the example above, what if it was perfect evasion for everyone or something else that was obscenely broken in the DL? The legality of it doesn't change, it's just more offensive due to the power level of it.

[Pyro]

Super, innate assured-to-have moves that are automatic aren't a matter of declaring illegal. They activate, period. If the cast had legal damage immunity we wouldn't be ranking the cast (i.e. if they were all a version of Minato). You are trying to take some extreme view that would make the game unrankable to almost everyone to justify ignoring an ability that almost everyone will have no qualms over.

And you realize that what you have said applies to FE oh-so-very-accurately, right? Except the Endure effect is even more legal than counters due to being unquestionably a property of the characters (as opposed to arguably just a facet of the battle system that can be ignored for DL purposes).

As far as the Grandia comment you missed my point. You can, in the Grandia game, opt not to use those "illegal skills" by simply not using them after learning them. It is under the player's control. There is no way to prevent P4 non-Souji PCs from having the Endure effect as an OPB trait once they have their maxed Personas (which there has never been any argument against, rightly so).

AI is a separate issue entirely and one that merits a separate discussion.

[Ultradude]

Super, innate assured-to-have moves that are automatic aren't a matter of declaring illegal. They activate, period. If the cast had legal damage immunity we wouldn't be ranking the cast (i.e. if they were all a version of Minato). You are trying to take some extreme view that would make the game unrankable to almost everyone to justify ignoring an ability that almost everyone will have no qualms over.

And you realize that what you have said applies to FE oh-so-very-accurately, right? Except the Endure effect is even more legal than counters due to being unquestionably a property of the characters (as opposed to arguably just a facet of the battle system that can be ignored for DL purposes).

This exactly.

If they had 3 turns of invincibility after death or perfect evasion to everything then I'd probably just pass on the game entirely.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Super, innate assured-to-have moves that are automatic aren't a matter of declaring illegal. They activate, period. If the cast had legal damage immunity we wouldn't be ranking the cast (i.e. if they were all a version of Minato). You are trying to take some extreme view that would make the game unrankable to almost everyone to justify ignoring an ability that almost everyone will have no qualms over.

This seems to me to be not true at all. Auto-Life has always created issues in the DL. I know several people disallow it entirely (see the Dalton for Puny movement). Sooo yeah, don't try to brush this over. Respect it for the real argument that it is; doing otherwise is showing disrespect for your fellow board members.

And you realize that what you have said applies to FE oh-so-very-accurately, right? Except the Endure effect is even more legal than counters due to being unquestionably a property of the characters (as opposed to arguably just a facet of the battle system that can be ignored for DL purposes).

As far as the Grandia comment you missed my point. You can, in the Grandia game, opt not to use those "illegal skills" by simply not using them after learning them. It is under the player's control. There is no way to prevent P4 non-Souji PCs from having the Endure effect as an OPB trait once they have their maxed Personas (which there has never been any argument against, rightly so).

There's no way to have a Yellow Scarf block sleep but not poison, and yet such is commonly done anyway. There's no way to have the benefit of Reflect Mail's HP without Auto-Reflect... yet people do that too. There's no way to equip the Slow-immuning FF6 Running Shoes without getting Auto-Haste... yet people definitely do that as well. People take views which are impossible in-game for balance reasons all the time. "Don't use Skill X" really isn't much better anyway, which people do even more (Item command, rod breaking, Defend/Wait commands for certain people, etc.).

[superaielman]

Super, innate assured-to-have moves that are automatic aren't a matter of declaring illegal. They activate, period. If the cast had legal damage immunity we wouldn't be ranking the cast (i.e. if they were all a version of Minato). You are trying to take some extreme view that would make the game unrankable to almost everyone to justify ignoring an ability that almost everyone will have no qualms over.

The view isn't extreme at all, the only thing I altered was how strong the move was. The DL has a whole does not usually allow cast wide skills like this. Why should Persona be rewarded because of a slightly different learning method?

As far as the Grandia comment you missed my point. You can, in the Grandia game, opt not to use those "illegal skills" by simply not using them after learning them. It is under the player's control. There is no way to prevent P4 non-Souji PCs from having the Endure effect as an OPB trait once they have their maxed Personas (which there has never been any argument against, rightly so).

The personas are a unique bonus to the characters, what you get from the S-link hitting that level isn't.

OB characters don't use their attacks and then sit there and die as the opponent attacks them over and over again. SO2 mages can use their magic in spite of being completely unable to do this one on one in game. 

A skill that makes an entire cast unkillable in a single turn is not something I am ever going to consider legal. That is entirely a property of S-links and not the characters themselves.

[OblivionKnight]

I assume Grandia characters have their magic, and that equipment don't have effects dummied >_>

Random aside, but I think a lot of this is going to be differences in views, based on consistency.

[OblivionKnight]

To be fair, the S.Links and characters are tied heavily together from a plot perspective.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Just to reiterate: the posts by NEB and super emphasize nicely most of the reasons why I just consider things in that kind of scale in a case-by-case basis. If, after mulling things out, I considered the Endure effect overpowered enough, I'd blanket ban it. I don't, so I allow it. It may not be very "consistent", but when the rulings begin being done by mainly balance reasons, I think a degree of personal scale arbitrarity is not only inevitable, but perfectly acceptable. This one just particularly doesn't hit a high note in my views.

Consistency is good, but consistency =/= harsh, set-in-stone, unchangeable tenets.

[Excal]

Another possible interpretation is that the Endure effect comes from the bond between Seta and the party members, which means they need him around in order for it to kick in much like he needs to be around for the SLink 1 effect to kick in, or for an All-Out Attack.  Likely going to lean towards allowing myself, but I certainly don't see where in-game is incontrovertable evidence that it needs to be allowed.

[Dhyerwolf]

Or it could be that it would kick in a duel just so they could impress Souji with winning!

But I'm definetely on the side of allowing the skills. The big difference between this and Grandia 1 magic is that Grandia 1 magic is storebought, and at least 3/4 of your party can equip all types of magic (Although there are at least some limitations if you factored in temp PCs that would make it seem more unique). Basically, you get a mana egg, and then you can equip it to whoever you want. While Auto-Endure may be gained the same way for each PC, it's gained in a fully separate manner (unlike G1, where you can choose). It's the storebought universalness that's generally the problem.

If the Auto-Endure skill was something far more extreme, it wouldn't change my view on it's legality, just on the game's rankability.

I don't think FE comparisons really fly here. I originally banned FE counters besides it was a facet of the battle system for both the ally and enemy side. Counters help and hurt you in a similar manner, so I was against them just helping you in the DL arena (Eventually changed it to characters can counter when they have range supremacy, so characters who are better at countering and avoiding enemy countering in game get a boost, while people who are stuck at one specific range will never counter. Which works awesomely since it can basically be applied to VH, ATL 2, Brig, what have you. There can be a few hiccups now and then, but it's fairly well balanced overall). Auto-Endure is only helpful, which puts it in a very different class to me.

[Talaysen]

Determining legality by how powerful a skill is... pretty silly.  If characters get some powerful skill that helps them more than some weaker skill, then somehow it would be BETTER in the DL for them to get the latter because the former is banned for being too powerful?  Yeah no.  That just doesn't make sense.

[Dark Holy Elf]

On the one hand I kinda want to agree with you. On the other hand... we already do do this, for better or worse. I'm going to go back to FFT Reflect Mail yet again since it's such a widespread and applicable example. If FFT Reflect Mail weren't straight Auto-Reflect, but instead "10% chance to reflect magic" I bet everybody would consider that. The weaker ability would make the cast stronger. Most people don't consider Earthbound rolling HP, but if you replaced that rolling HP with an objectively weaker boost, such as giving the entire cast a buffing spell that gave them rolling HP, people would be more likely to consider that. And they definitely would if said buff spell was only given to a portion of the cast.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah. On the one hand, you're right in an absolute sense, Tal. But, on the other hand, when we start delving within the subtler realms of what to consider and what not to, the tiebreaker often ends up being... balance. Balance reasons are what brought in the blanket unban on statusblocking accessories and the further arbitrary delvings for allowance in certain forms (like selective blocking for catch-all accessories), for a widespread example. At some point, hard-boiled consistency will inevitably have to give space to personal balance tweaks that work within the imaginary line a person draws. To me, at least. The very ideas of scaling and whatnot were created with the ultimate idea of a semblance of streamlining balance, and, within that vast realm, I don't feel uncomfortable using that tenet to draw lines of legality in a few particularly murky instances. Don't think that many people would ultimately disagree, and I'm sure plenty do that, consciously or unconsciously.

[Pyro]

Current argument aside (we're getting a bit derailed, which is partially my fault), I'll just say that the Endure effect is not worth the kind of fretting and special treatment that Super is talking about. It is probably not as valuable to the cast as FE counters or the ubiquitous non-unique elemental resists in the DL, and if you allow those you should certainly allow this boon. It likely doesn't even change divisions.

[AndrewRogue]

On the Sagiri's:

Disagreeing about Namatame and I feel he should be a considered rank. He factors notably at the beginning of the game (relation to the main plot), lingers around in town over the course of the game (which, given that he's a portraited NPC, makes him really stand out) and the entire plot sequence (including the boss fight) is really memorable. He is also a potential final boss.

I also dislike getting hung up on whether it is Namatame or his shadow. Shadows are clearly spawned of the characters themselves and thus should be counted as part of them. If not, then I'm going to start hyping ranking the PC boss forms. >_>

I... will have to review the dialogue sequence, but I'm disinclined to believe that Ameno is portrayed so literally a part of Izanami that it should be discounted as a rank, especially in light of being a memorable fight and such.

[Monkeyfinger]

We could use a Niu to weigh in re: Ameno.

[Niu]

Amenosagiri is not a part of Izanami, just something she created.

[superaielman]

How are people standing on bosses nowadays? Odds are we're ranking at least the killer soon enough, and the game's draw/internal certainly can support at least a few more.

[Taishyr]

I'd still support killer/Kunino-Sagiri/DW1 Hero, on fence about Ameno, generally not inclined to vote for Izanami.

[dude789]

Killer, Kunino, Ameno, and DW1 Hero seem like a pretty good set. I'll have to think about Izanami.

[Nephrite]

Izanami falls into the Loki category for me, so I'm all for her along with the other bosses mentioned.