Season 52, Week 3

[superaielman]

Godlike:

Myria (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs)
Luca Blight (S2) vs Melfice (G2)
Indalecio (SO2) vs Isolde Schelling (MK)
Malik Benedict (WA3) vs Lady (SH3)

Heavy:

Deamoned (BoF5) vs Lezard Valeth (VPs)
Nicole Mimi Tithel (MK) vs Fogel (OB)
Geddoe (S3)  vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4)
Worker 8 (FFT) vs Pamela Ibis (MK)

Middle:

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4)
Palom (FF4) vs Odessa Silverburg (S1)
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs Seifer Almasy (FF8)
Domingo (SF1) vs Kyra Tierny (PS4)

Light:

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2)
Milon (FF4) vs Gijimu (S2)
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)
Roger S Huxley (SO3) vs Porom (FF4)

[superaielman]

Godlike:

Myria (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs)- Fire weakness gets Brahms 2 killed. Brahms 1 hates magic.
Luca Blight (S2) vs Melfice (G2)- Shhh!. Luca can't really do much after that. I've been sort of bouncing around what the fight looks like after that and what use support spells could play depending on how often you see Luca hitting and Melfice's HP, but it doesn't change the basic result there.
Indalecio (SO2) vs Isolde Schelling (MK)- Will see in a few days.
Malik Benedict (WA3) vs Lady (SH3)- ...

Heavy:

Deamoned (BoF5) vs Lezard Valeth (VPs)- Yeah.
Nicole Mimi Tithel (MK) vs Fogel (OB)- Nikki needs too much luck in terms of ID hitting/evading.  It's a good fight, just don't think she'll be able to make the ID land in time.
Geddoe (S3)  vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4)- Arnaud can't really handle strong mages.
Worker 8 (FFT) vs Pamela Ibis (MK)- Ouch.

Middle:

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4)- This is not close.
Palom (FF4) vs Odessa Silverburg (S1)- May switch my vote on this one. Assuming Palom's Mevade did something. *Pokes Dhyer*
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs Seifer Almasy (FF8)- More respect as a slugger. Winner is screwed next round either way.
Domingo (SF1) vs Kyra Tierny (PS4)- Remake Desoul kicks ass.

Light:

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2)- Remake Anri.
Milon (FF4) vs Gijimu (S2)- Deserves no comment.
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)- Cyan strikes again.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike:

Myria (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs): Brahms2 loses. I'd vote this way pre-VP2 for what it's worth.
Luca Blight (S2) vs Melfice (G2): Thinking that by the time Silence lands Melfice is too close to death.
Indalecio (SO2) vs Isolde Schelling (MK): Indy is very clearly vulnerable to his own game's version of brief stunning. Isolde has a version of that that never misses that she can spam via timed cards. It's a limit, but one she gets, since Indy can't dick around due to her damage being fine before then.
Malik Benedict (WA3) vs Lady (SH3): Uhhhh

Heavy:

Deamoned (BoF5) vs Lezard Valeth (VPs): OHKO
Geddoe (S3)  vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4): Pretty sure. Blocks sleep, parries the ID, and Slow Down only delays the inevitable.
Worker 8 (FFT) vs Pamela Ibis (MK): Everything Pamela does hits MDef.

Middle:

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4): Uhhhh
Palom (FF4) vs Odessa Silverburg (S1): So now on top of hype for useless twin status hype we get status resistance hype, just when they couldn't get more awesome~
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs Seifer Almasy (FF8): I dunno.
Domingo (SF1) vs Kyra Tierny (PS4): Kyra takes 30% or 58% off the hit rate of magical status depending on if it hits Mental or MDef. SF1 Desoul sucks even before this.

Light:

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2): One-shots, I imagine?
Milon (FF4) vs Gijimu (S2): Yup.
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6): Wow.
Roger S Huxley (SO3) vs Porom (FF4): Using Meep's averages for now, so Roger OHKOs.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Godlike:

Myria (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs) - 3HKOs Brahms. He can't say the same.
Luca Blight (S2) vs Melfice (G2) - Mmmmyeah, turn two Silence doesn't quite work here. Luca shaves off too much of Melfice's HP before it happens and Melfice hasn't even started slugging yet.
Indalecio (SO2) vs Isolde Schelling (MK) - Don't forget that Grand Gaze is a Break gauge 2HKO and timed offense as well, NEB. <_< But yeah. Baxim Bite, card spamming, then Indy just loses a slugfest once they hit their limits, given he doesn't 2HKO Isolde under ToT, and she's lapping him right and left once SC kicks in.
Malik Benedict (WA3) vs Lady (SH3) - Manslaughter.

Heavy:

Nicole Mimi Tithel (MK) vs Fogel (OB) - Nikki gives Fogel a decent enough fight, at least. But kneejerking for the Heavy that really could use a run by now.
Geddoe (S3)  vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) - This is the kind of mage Arnaud fears, honestly.
Worker 8 (FFT) vs Pamela Ibis (MK) - LITERALLY PURE MAGE VS. WORKER

Middle:

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4) - lol
Palom (FF4) vs Odessa Silverburg (S1) - Odessa MDef is just waaaaaaaaaaay too retarded. I kneejerked against Stop being perfect before and I can always do it again. Given she 2HKOs Palom (should have average magical damage, Palom HP is bad enough to eat 2HKOs to average magical damage)... WoS probably seals the deal further, since she laps Palom by her fourth turn at worst and she can afford to wait when he's napping.
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs Seifer Almasy (FF8) - Yeah no.
Domingo (SF1) vs Kyra Tierny (PS4) - Against ShF1o Domingo, Kyra just coasts, honestly.

Light:

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2) - OHKOs.
Milon (FF4) vs Gijimu (S2) - Milon.
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6) - Egads.
Roger S Huxley (SO3) vs Porom (FF4) - Roger -does- come dangerously close to OHKOing, but not dice.

[Clear Tranquil]

Hrmmm ... Oh I see, Meeple used Land Mines in the set ups. That makes sense now. Didn't understand it before but yeah that probably explains things. I have a hard time swallowing that Roger could do more damage than Maria or Fayt than Sophia but skill variances factor into a lot of things. A L10 Land Mines is as strong as a L1 Faerie Friend ^_^ Mostly I forget Land Mines' worth though since Roger eventually starts paling into comparison to the rest of the optionals except maybe Albel, it's hard to remember that he actually has some good stuff >.>

The match is a lot closer than I thought now.

Still it pains me to hype Roger here, Porom's HP/DEF/Speed is that bad huh?

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:

Myria (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs)- Brahms. Myria's best for me is the 3rd form, and that's based on limits that don't activate soon enough. Brahms gets the Bloody Curse.
Luca Blight (S2) vs Melfice (G2)- Melfice
Indalecio (SO2) vs Isolde Schelling (MK)- Isolde
Malik Benedict (WA3) vs Lady (SH3)- Lady

Heavy:

Deamoned (BoF5) vs Lezard Valeth (VPs)- Deamoned
Nicole Mimi Tithel (MK) vs Fogel (OB)- How's Fogel on status resistance? What does OB check?
Geddoe (S3)  vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4)- Geddoe
Worker 8 (FFT) vs Pamela Ibis (MK)- Worker 8.

Middle:

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4)- Kresnik
Palom (FF4) vs Odessa Silverburg (S1)- Palom
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs Seifer Almasy (FF8)- Bowman
Domingo (SF1) vs Kyra Tierny (PS4)- Kyra

Light:

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2)- Tia. Takes a hit.
Milon (FF4) vs Gijimu (S2)- Gijimu
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)- Cyan. Damn robber. Also, Cyan was the only blight on an awesome Week 2 results.
Roger S Huxley (SO3) vs Porom (FF4)- Porom. Crush.

[074]

Godlike:

Myria (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs) - lol

Heavy:

Deamoned (BoF5) vs Lezard Valeth (VPs) - Deamoned hurts things.  Nerdcromancers included.
Geddoe (S3)  vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) - Arnaud hates mages.  Especially the type who can fry him in 1-2 shots.  And aren't exactly frail.

Middle:

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4) - There are people who can get through Kresnik's defenses.  Cagnazzo is not one of them.
Domingo (SF1) vs Kyra Tierny (PS4) - Desoul never hit for me (nevermind Kyra's very solid MDef/MTL), and Kyra can turtle through the Freeze barrage.  Domingo's resources -suck-, to boot.  Then it turns into the equivalent of an epic slapfight.  Except that Kyra has 20+ shots of high healing.

...Saddest fight ever.

Light:

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2) - SF1o Anri was decent.  I remember not having much respect for Tia in general, but I can check the topics at some point. [EDIT] Kneejerk.
Roger S Huxley (SO3) vs Porom (FF4) - FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF twins.

[Magic Fanatic]

Godlike:

Malik Benedict (WA3) vs Lady (SH3) - Slaughtering the double-spoiler!

Heavy:

Worker 8 (FFT) vs Pamela Ibis (MK) - I know I may be speaking out of line and without knowledge, but does this match EVER end?  Worker 8 immunes magic, which Pamela has nothing but.  Pamela immunes physicals...  And isn't that all Worker 8 has?

Light:

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2) - Sure, why not?
Milon (FF4) vs Gijimu (S2) - Um...  FF4DS Milon?...  Nah.  Still, I don't think he's THAT bad...

[superaielman]

Nicole Mimi Tithel (MK) vs Fogel (OB)- How's Fogel on status resistance? What does OB check?

He knocks 20% off status/ID.

Myria (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs)- Brahms. Myria's best for me is the 3rd form, and that's based on limits that don't activate soon enough. Brahms gets the Bloody Curse.

Sirricco is active at full HP and that is bad news for Brahms.

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2)- Tia. Takes a hit.

1o should OHKO pretty easily here. Tia HP more than makes up for her MDef score even under the best scaling for her. (Scaling her to the time she leaves. MDef doesn't matter worth a damn at endgame.)

[Meeplelard]

Godlike:

Myria (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs): Yeah, see what Elfboy said.
Luca Blight (S2) vs Melfice (G2): I...think?  Dunno, close one either way.
Indalecio (SO2) vs Isolde Schelling (MK): Yeah, I guess the two are trading hits, then Isolde gets that stun move later on and that pushes the fight in her favor.
Malik Benedict (WA3) vs Lady (SH3): Anti Physical Boss with status vs. Mage Boss who nukes things dead...yeah, that'll go over well <.<

Heavy:

Deamoned (BoF5) vs Lezard Valeth (VPs): Competent boss vs. suck.
Nicole Mimi Tithel (MK) vs Fogel (OB): Yeah, Nikki's status isn't hitting fast enough, and there's no way she's winning this slug fest.
Geddoe (S3) vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4): Sounds like Arnaud can't set up his game before Geddoe nukes him.
Worker 8 (FFT) vs Pamela Ibis (MK): If nothing else, Work has a better argument for hitting through Pamela's immunity than Pamela has of...doing anything to Worker 8 (ahahaha to Pamela's resistance move removing Auto Innocent; its an Auto Status, not a Resist.)

Middle:

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4): I think?
Palom (FF4) vs Odessa Silverburg (S1): I don't know.  Odessa has durability and speed, but Palom has raw power  that completely trounces Odessa's, so really don't think.  I kneejerk Palom cause I wanna say his accuracy on some of his status due to his Wisdom is absolutely batshit that it'd mock magic defense (like Stop), but...dunno.
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs Seifer Almasy (FF8): SO2 PCs are good at damage manipulation, which makes FF8 characters hate life, especially against PCs with limited healing.
Domingo (SF1) vs Kyra Tierny (PS4): Better.

Light:

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2): Kneejerk.
Milon (FF4) vs Gijimu (S2): If this was remake Milon, the fight would be interesting!
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6): Don't think Bern has quite enough offense to get Cyan down before Cleave.  Though, he's not winning next round as...
Roger S Huxley (SO3) vs Porom (FF4): Casts Mini on Roger, yawns.  Being Pure Physical sucks, innit?

[superaielman]

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4): I think?

Kresnik should smoke Cagnazzo. Once he hastes there's now ay Cagnazzo can break his healing.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Pamela immunes physicals...  And isn't that all Worker 8 has?

Work is non-typed damage. It's not affected by Defence Up, Protect, or physical evasion of any form, and does not trigger counters that react to physicals.

You could, I suppose, argue it to be special ITD/ITE physical damage, but there's no evidence Pamela is immune to such attacks anyway, so it'd be a real stretch to see her immune here. On the other hand, as noted, W8 is definitely immune to Pamela's attacks.

[Taishyr]

It runs off PA which is good enough for me to tag it as physical that just ignores anything that isn't immunity. This being said, I'm voting W8 anyway, loses less HP figuring out that he can't do anything than Pamela does.

[Talaysen]

You could, I suppose, argue it to be special ITD/ITE physical damage, but there's no evidence Pamela is immune to such attacks anyway, so it'd be a real stretch to see her immune here. On the other hand, as noted, W8 is definitely immune to Pamela's attacks.

Sure there is.  Physical crits are ITD and you can't dodge while broken, and Pamela immunes those just fine.  Just being ITD/ITE alone isn't enough.

Pamela also has Seeker which removes resistances/weaknesses/immunities (which also stops the enemy from ever getting new ones even), and then crits that are ITD to bust through W8's infinite MDef.  This isn't really enough if you consider Work as non-typed though.

[Mad Fnorder]

Godlike:
Indalecio (SO2) vs Isolde Schelling (MK)- Think he gets rolling before she can seal the deal.

Heavy:

Deamoned (BoF5) vs Lezard Valeth (VPs)- My Lezard respect has gone down since his ranking.
Nicole Mimi Tithel (MK) vs Fogel (OB)- giving Fogel the credit to not get ID'd turn one. Great match, though.
Geddoe (S3)  vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4)- Been said, Arnaud can't stop the Hammer coming down.
Worker 8 (FFT) vs Pamela Ibis (MK): It's funny, I could see Seeker wiping Auto-Innocent, but her damage spells still have to deal with W8's effectively infinite Mdef. Conversely, Pamela's immunity works on anything with the physical element attached. I'm convinced by the arguments that Work doesn't fit that.

Middle:

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4)- Haste Healers with good resources are Cagnazzo's bane.
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs Seifer Almasy (FF8)- Can chip and has healing.

Light:
Roger S Huxley (SO3) vs Porom (FF4)- Mini, I guess?

[Meeplelard]

Sure there is.  Physical crits are ITD and you can't dodge while broken, and Pamela immunes those just fine.  Just being ITD/ITE alone isn't enough.

Being Broken =/= all attacks ignore evade, its basically "Your Evade is now 0!"  That's a Target Status Thing, not an attack status thing.  Evade Ignoring  is an ATTACK status thing; Pamela's evasion being 0 is completely irrelevant when she's broken, just if the move is physical or not.  If MK lacks anything that ignores proper evade, it just lacks it; don't try twisting 0 Evade due to a status that's dependent on the target as the same thing as Evade Ignoring, an aspect dependent on the attack.

This maybe the closest MK comes to paralleling the way Work functions, but it doesn't have an actual direct parallel.  If this were, say, FF6 where there are moves that function exactly like Work, and they still ram into its own Physical Immunity thing (Vanish, specifically), then you could make a good argument for Work failing against that.

But MK just seems to lack any sort of Evade Ignoring in general, thus you can't prove there are any Pseudo-Physical attacks that still get nailed by Pamela's resistance.  Trying to twist Status where Evade = 0 as being the same as Evade Ignoring isn't enough, I'm afraid.

[Pyro]

(relax a little Meep)

What Tal is saying is that simply being ITD/ITE isn't enough to excuse beating Pamela's physical immunity, which is perfectly reasonable (irrespective of evade or defense, if an attack is physical it WILL fail against her). The only real discussion is whether Work is physical or not, which apparently it isn't by some other mechanic that has nothing to do with being ITD and ITE. As for relying on PA, well IIRC staff whacks are MA based and are clearly physical, no? Same is easily true of Work but it's just non-typed.

Trying to argue that a clearly physical attack that simply was ITE/ITD beats Pamela's immunity isn't something I (or anyone else I think) would agree with. Sadly for our ghostgirl Work is apparently non-typed.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

The thing with it running off PA could also be an argument, but MK has similar weirdness going on with Flay's post-Raiden Charge damage. It still runs off his Str! However, it doesn't have the physical tag. Worker's skillset is in a fairly similar situation, with the added benefit that it doesn't -hit- physical resistances, while Flay's damage does.

[Pyro]

Actually Flay's damage after Raiden Charge is pure lightning element and no longer cares about physical resist (as opposed to certain enemy elemental/physical moves which still smack into Physical Immunity.

[Meeplelard]

First off, Pyro, I wasn't saying that stance is necessarily wrong; what I'm saying is Tal's attempt to prove it was flawed; he was trying to over simplify a scenario to use it as proof, and I felt I should point out what's wrong with that.

Anyway...

Regarding Raiden Charge, how does that differ from Worker 8's Works which don't hit any resistance  either (barring Zodiacs of course)?

From what I can tell, you're saying Pamela's resistance is caused by her being immune to "Physical" Element.  Ok, so if that's the case...

Is this any different from Pokemon Ghost type immuning Normal (and Fighting)?  I think most agree that if your attack is elemental, even physical, it goes right through that Physical immunity Ghosts have.

Using the Pokemon Analogy, Worker 8's Physical would count as a Normal type attack to me.  However, Work's are closer to Struggle.  Struggle in Pokemon is physical in the sense that it runs off attack and hits defense...but it ignores like all forms of resistance.  Its the only completely Non-Typed attack in Pokemon, and thus neutral to everything.


So if we adapt that to MK, a move like Hyper Beam would get shrugged off by Pamela, but STRUGGLE!!! would not, since despite being physical, its very clearly non-typed.  Could not the same logic be applied to Work which is more reminiscent of Struggle (even has the recoil! But that's clearly just a coincedence) than it is Pokemon physicals?

[Talaysen]

If you've got any counterargument that ITE stuff hits Pamela, by all means, bring it up.  Because I'm certainly not seeing one, and saying "ITE > physical immunity" is pulling something out of thin air with no evidence to back it up, while it's at least arguable in reverse.

And I don't even think Pyro's hyping the immunity over Work anyway.

Also, any attack that carries the physical element at all gets immuned, even if it's part some other element, so I definitely wouldn't see most elemental physicals going through (though some would).  Unfortunately Pokemon doesn't have dual-element attacks so I dunno how I'd consider that against PKMN ghosts, but probably the same way.  Of course none of this matters right now since that doesn't apply to Work.

[Ultradude]

I think the argument, Tal, is that people are claiming that Work ISN'T physical at all - that it's just damage without any typing that would allow it to be affected by resistances etc. That or I'm just misunderstanding entirely and you should ignore me when I talk about a game I never finished.

Is there anything explicitly immune to physicals in FFT?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Actually Flay's damage after Raiden Charge is pure lightning element and no longer cares about physical resist (as opposed to certain enemy elemental/physical moves which still smack into Physical Immunity.

What I actually meant was that it smacks into pdef still.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Godlike:

Myria (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs)
Luca Blight (S2) vs Melfice (G2): super's dream match?
Indalecio (SO2) vs Isolde Schelling (MK)
Malik Benedict (WA3) vs Lady (SH3): This season's Godlike finals seem pretty set...

Heavy:

Deamoned (BoF5) vs Lezard Valeth (VPs): Allowing Lezard his gimmick. Either Deamoned has to smash the crystal first, or he deals with power-boost Lezard, I'm thinking.
Nicole Mimi Tithel (MK) vs Fogel (OB)
Geddoe (S3) vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4): Hammer of Raiden smash
Worker 8 (FFT) vs Pamela Ibis (MK)

Middle:

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4): Easy
Palom (FF4) vs Odessa Silverburg (S1): Status'd somehow, I suppose.
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs Seifer Almasy (FF8): It's SEIFER... Also, my respect for Bowman damage is probably higher than most.
Domingo (SF1) vs Kyra Tierny (PS4): Ugh, just upgrade and stop raping Middle...

Light:

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2): Think she can tank a hit or two.
Milon (FF4) vs Gijimu (S2): Apathy
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6): Lucky draw, Cyan.
Roger S Huxley (SO3) vs Porom (FF4): What Meep said.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Either Deamoned has to smash the crystal first, or he deals with power-boost Lezard, I'm thinking.

Deamoned gets three attacks a turn. He can use the first to stun Lezard and remove the crystal's power, then two to smash the crystal. So he spoils that form even if you respect it!