Author Topic: FF9 stat topic discussion (Read 13167 times)

TranceHime · « **Reply #25 on:** May 12, 2009, 07:37:25 AM »

Quote from: PKNintendo on May 11, 2009, 08:47:53 PM

I mean, you should at least include Thievery on the list (Zidane being the second weakest is odd >_>)
And put it at least 4500 ITD (Again HOW did you get 4950? Is that what you got in game?)

Also it could be flipped 2 ways. Collecting to many frogs can be considered... Frogtomania.

PS: Sorry I sound a bit imposing.

99*50 = 4950

You need 99 frogs collect to get Gastro Fork

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #26 on:** May 12, 2009, 11:34:19 AM »

*eyes discussion*

Motion to allow Eiko optimised stats based on Marcus/Eiko twinking plz?

;)

PKNintendo · « **Reply #27 on:** May 12, 2009, 12:22:12 PM »

Not even XD!

OH!
But yeah, catching 99 is a bit much for me. I mean, if 99 frogs is acceptable, Zidane's speed at lvl 50 and a lot of steals should be a fair equivalent.

EDIT: Right, 29 or 32. Let's say Zidane stole... 450 times throughout the course of the game.
Then it would be 450*29/2=6525.

That sounds reasonable to me. (pretty nice for ITD)

That would amount to

TranceHime · « **Reply #28 on:** May 12, 2009, 02:59:50 PM »

Quote from: PKNintendo on May 12, 2009, 12:22:12 PM

OH!
But yeah, catching 99 is a bit much for me. I mean, if 99 frogs is acceptable, Zidane's speed at lvl 50 and a lot of steals should be a fair equivalent.

You are missing the point here

The stats for Quina are taken with him having the Gastro Fork, you MUST HAVE CAUGHT 99 FROGS to get the Gastro Fork :V

There's no practical reason to interpret Zidane as having a crapload of steals, because honestly, you have little reason to be having 450 steals throughout the entire game apart from item farming, which is impractical in itself for something of this nature, IMO.

EDIT: Just uhh mentioning that yeah, stealing is awesome 'n all? But again, for something of this nature, I personally wouldn't be taking it at that many... Probably less for me. Feel free to make voting on however you interpret things, just don't impose it on people. Yeah, I'm probably guilty of this posting this right now, but bawwwww. It's going to cause a ruckus >_>

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #29 on:** May 12, 2009, 04:29:37 PM »

Personally I see 99 frogs as too low and 450 steals as way too high. I could get into why this is (it basically comes down to the fact that it doesn't take 4.5 times as long to eat a frog as it does to make a successful steal, or even anything particularly close, combined with my championioning of in-battle efficiency) but it's not really relevant.

THAT SAID, this isn't the point. Trance pretty much nails this. If you want to see Thievery doing 6000, that's okay. People see those moves doing different amounts of damage. The stat topic, though, is attempting to be as objective as possible. In doing so, since there's no way to peg down the damage of Thievery/Frog Drop/Dragon Crest, it has ignored the moves entirely, EXCEPT that it has assumed that you have enough frogs to get the Gastro Fork, which seems completely reasonable since that's a goal that we assume has been shot towards in getting everyone their final equipment - in other words, it is iliterally impossible for the DL Quina listed to do less than 4950 with Frog Drop. If you want to see the damage of any of these three moves higher, that's okay, all the stat topic provides is good objective minimums.

Talaysen · « **Reply #30 on:** May 12, 2009, 07:38:08 PM »

Honestly, I don't see why you have to assume 99 frogs there. You can just allow the Fork by an extension of the Ultima clause and just use the Frog Drop damage at whatever you feel is a reasonable number of frogs to have. Similar to how we give Terra Ultima but don't use her L99 stats for it. Or for a better example, Fei's Yamikei.

For example, let's say instead of getting a Gastro Fork, you got something different, more useful, but not something Quina can even use. In that case, it would be even more worth it to get the 99 frogs, but you wouldn't necessarily assume that in the DL because it's not required for anything that helps Quina. That seems awfully silly to me.

For the record, I do think 99 frogs is fine for Quina, since it's not that hard to get.

Regarding the topic itself, I think there should at least be a LISTING of Thievery, just so people remember it exists. Just put the formula for damage instead of an actual damage figure. Then at least people can just figure out what they think is a reasonable number of steals and plug in (or if they remember their endgame damage figure, just use that). Seems like a flat out bad idea to leave off moves completely regardless.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #31 on:** May 12, 2009, 08:06:42 PM »

But wasn't that what Dhyer did? >_>

OblivionKnight · « **Reply #32 on:** May 12, 2009, 08:47:25 PM »

Not initially - I think someone else listed it.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #33 on:** May 12, 2009, 08:49:24 PM »

Oh right. Nevermind.

PKNintendo · « **Reply #34 on:** May 12, 2009, 09:05:16 PM »

Quote from: TranceHime on May 12, 2009, 02:59:50 PM

Quote from: PKNintendo on May 12, 2009, 12:22:12 PM

OH!
But yeah, catching 99 is a bit much for me. I mean, if 99 frogs is acceptable, Zidane's speed at lvl 50 and a lot of steals should be a fair equivalent.

You are missing the point here

The stats for Quina are taken with him having the Gastro Fork, you MUST HAVE CAUGHT 99 FROGS to get the Gastro Fork :V

There's no practical reason to interpret Zidane as having a crapload of steals, because honestly, you have little reason to be having 450 steals throughout the entire game apart from item farming, which is impractical in itself for something of this nature, IMO.

EDIT: Just uhh mentioning that yeah, stealing is awesome 'n all? But again, for something of this nature, I personally wouldn't be taking it at that many... Probably less for me. Feel free to make voting on however you interpret things, just don't impose it on people. Yeah, I'm probably guilty of this posting this right now, but bawwwww. It's going to cause a ruckus >_>

Oh pish posh, you can get Steiner's Excalibur 2 quite easily, why isn't THAT listed.

Yeah, I get the point.

THAT SAID, this isn't the point. Trance pretty much nails this. If you want to see Thievery doing 6000, that's okay. People see those moves doing different amounts of damage. The stat topic, though, is attempting to be as objective as possible. In doing so, since there's no way to peg down the damage of Thievery/Frog Drop/Dragon Crest, it has ignored the moves entirely, EXCEPT that it has assumed that you have enough frogs to get the Gastro Fork, which seems completely reasonable since that's a goal that we assume has been shot towards in getting everyone their final equipment - in other words, it is iliterally impossible for the DL Quina listed to do less than 4950 with Frog Drop. If you want to see the damage of any of these three moves higher, that's okay, all the stat topic provides is good objective minimums.

Oh okay, I gotcha.
But unfortunately, Trance doesn't nail it, since it doesn't ITD.

Alright people, Gaia fan OUT.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #35 on:** May 12, 2009, 09:30:22 PM »

That's not the point. Trance nailed the point on why Frog Drop is listed with a damage figure and why Thievery isn't. And -both- attacks are ITD anyway. Also, Excalibur 2 requires borderline speedrunning through FFIX. "Quite easy to get" is something I'd hesitate to append to that weapon, and I'm not even sure if that's even attainable in a first playthrough. Not to mention that Steiner hits the damage cap with his normal weapon anyway, so unless Excalibur 2 gives nutsy stat boosts, it's essentially irrelevant to him.

PKNintendo · « **Reply #36 on:** May 13, 2009, 01:26:07 AM »

Okay then.

>_>

Let's talk about something else...
I got nothing.

PS: I was joking about the Steiner thing.

PKNintendo · « **Reply #37 on:** May 21, 2009, 02:10:51 AM »

Just a question folks, are abilities for each character in FF9 banned or allowed? (in DL I mean.)

superaielman · « **Reply #38 on:** May 21, 2009, 02:27:00 AM »

If you have any questions/want to talk about the DL, go to one of the season topics there.

And skills? Everyone allows the unique crystal skills. Beyond that is certainly is arguble.

PKNintendo · « **Reply #39 on:** May 21, 2009, 02:37:28 AM »

Like Zidane's Mug, Master Thief and Protect girls?

-_-

superaielman · « **Reply #40 on:** May 21, 2009, 03:49:13 AM »

Yeah, a lot of Zidane's skillset isn't really workable in a duel. Soul Blade and Thievery were the only ones worth a damn in game besides basic stealing so that is not shocking. Zidane is probably a Heavy or Middle, which is pretty standard for main characters.

As far as the results page go, just nominate Zidane and try to send in writeups when he appears. Zidane does pretty well here in spite of getting beaten like a throw rug in writeups. ^_^ <-Edge fan.

PKNintendo · « **Reply #41 on:** May 21, 2009, 09:55:51 PM »

Thanks.

Eh, I'm not pissing you guys off am I? This topic got relocated (within reason) but I'm a tad worried...
Edit2: But on the other hand, I'm the new topic author!

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #42 on:** May 22, 2009, 03:27:04 AM »

nah, just housekeeping affairs. Stat topics are best kept to stats, notes, and direct commentary/corrections thereof, for readability. So your original comment was sound, but the multi-page discussion thusly spawned warranted shuffling elsewhere.

superaielman · « **Reply #43 on:** May 22, 2009, 02:16:57 PM »

You're cool, just wanted to split it off to it's own topic. If you have any questions, ask here and we'll respond.

James_xeno · « **Reply #44 on:** May 27, 2009, 12:22:30 PM »

This is an issue I've been wanting to bring up for a while now.

Thievery is "steals x speed / 2" Even at the stat topic levels/speed it's like 650-700 steals for max, and only about 350-400 to match or even best his physical. Most monsters have 3-4 (0-1 rare) items and with Bandit, stealing is basically 100%. The time and effort needed for this is being way overestimated.

The specific issues over time and difficulty in leveling it up aside. I'm not sure how, in a league full of celestial/final weapon carrying, Ultima casting (Terra), monster and (secret) Aeon summoning fighters, an easily learned attack from a game with a set class skill system could cause so many people problems. It's Zidane's second best offensive attack (max damage + ITD) after Soul Blade.

But as bad as the Thievery issue is. It can't compare with that of Dragon's Crest. I mean I seriously wonder if evryone literally just forgot about Freya's best offensive skill and damage. (9999, ITD, 3HKO)

100 x number of dragons killed (by the party, not only Freya) = damage

There are at least six dragon types of monsters in the game that count as kills. A few of which are low level and literally everywhere. Plus the Grand Dragons, which are great for leveling up (35,000 exp) and are susceptible to Quina’s Lv.5 Death. (Lv. 60) So there is little reason why you wouldn't have it fully leveled and no reason for it not to be at least substantially so. (7000-8000+ and still 3HKO)

I remember having it maxed by the time I learned it, before I even knew how it worked.

Quote from: Talaysen on May 12, 2009, 07:38:08 PM

Regarding the topic itself, I think there should at least be a LISTING of Thievery, just so people remember it exists. Just put the formula for damage instead of an actual damage figure. Then at least people can just figure out what they think is a reasonable number of steals and plug in (or if they remember their endgame damage figure, just use that). Seems like a flat out bad idea to leave off moves completely regardless.

I couldn't agree more.

I find it unfortunate that even though a lot of times spells and skills with no use here in the DL get listed for other games, but yet both Zidane and Freya's best attacks get left out/off completely and very few people seem to have a problem with it.

Quote from: TranceHime on May 12, 2009, 07:37:25 AM

You need 99 frogs collect to get Gastro Fork

Quote from: TranceHime on May 12, 2009, 02:59:50 PM

The stats for Quina are taken with him having the Gastro Fork, you MUST HAVE CAUGHT 99 FROGS to get the Gastro Fork :V

And what is it exactly that Terra has/gets for leveling up to 99? (well other than Ultima, which obviously must be purely coincidental....obviously)

Quote from: TranceHime on May 12, 2009, 02:59:50 PM

There's no practical reason to interpret Zidane as having a crapload of steals, because honestly, you have little reason to be having 450 steals throughout the entire game apart from item farming, which is impractical in itself for something of this nature, IMO.

...and collecting rare items, gaining free HP and MP healing items. (especially useful when in the middle of nowhere or in a dungeon) And, oh yeah, powering up Zidane's best attack.

PKNintendo · « **Reply #45 on:** May 28, 2009, 12:35:05 AM »

Yeah, I forgot Dragon Crest... People should remember that. Hell, I had Dragon Crest hitting for over 5k without even LOOKING for dragons. (Okay Grand Dragon training, but I only killed 15ish)

Hehe, I have a question about Kuja's Ultima. Isn't, that like the best move EVER?!?
Doesn't it make him unbeatable? Of course, if they outspeed him but still...

Ultradude · « **Reply #46 on:** May 28, 2009, 12:36:47 AM »

Quote from: PKNintendo on May 28, 2009, 12:35:05 AM

Yeah, I forgot Dragon Crest... People should remember that. Hell, I had Dragon Crest hitting for over 5k without even LOOKING for dragons. (Okay Grand Dragon training, but I only killed 15ish)

Hehe, I have a question about Kuja's Ultima. Isn't, that like the best move EVER?!?
Doesn't it make him unbeatable? Of course, if they outspeed him but still...

That Ultima is a scripted plot event, not an actual attack, according to unanimous consensus.

PKNintendo · « **Reply #47 on:** May 28, 2009, 12:51:49 AM »

Oh, makes sense. XD he would be ridiculous with it.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #48 on:** May 28, 2009, 01:07:50 AM »

Post-endgame skills get 'grandfathered in' to me due to my views on uniqueness. Terra gets Ultima. Fei gets Yamikei. The entire cast of Golden Sun deals average damage. Helps some, hurts others.

Terra and Fei are not being viewed as actually levelled past normal endgame levels, they were just gifted with these skills a few levels early, and scaled as such.

Freya and Zidane are certainly allowed to use Dragon's Crest and Thievery to me, but they don't get special treatment by having the skills levelled past 'endgame levels'.

That said, I certainly think that a certain level of Dragon Kills and Successful Steals be allowed, similar to SO/Tales/Grandia characters getting levelled-through-use skills to me. Not max level, but something reasonable like 50% (or whatever seems reasonable based on in-game numbers).

Alternately, if you want to look at uniqueness a slightly different way: Quina's frog catch is something only Quina can do - unique. Allow it to max. Zidane is the only PC that can Steal. Unique, allow it to max. Freya is -not- the only character who can kill Dragons. No credit. *shrugs*

Excal · « **Reply #49 on:** May 28, 2009, 01:48:27 AM »

As I recall, the real reason why those moves aren't seen as maxed is because it utterly kills the damage curve since then half the cast does 10k damage, and two other members aren't that far behind. Which also means that 10k damage isn't worth anything. It's slightly above average damage that will still tend to 3HKO average durability. So, um, yay? You've found a way to ensure that FF9 has no one with impressive damage in the PC cast?

News:

Author Topic: FF9 stat topic discussion (Read 13167 times)