FF9 stat topic discussion

[Talaysen]

Djinn, that's kind of the point.  Post-endgame skills are just allowed in like that, but the levels/grinding needed to GET those skills are generally ignored.  There's no reason that this shouldn't apply to Quina's fork, so Quina does not have to have those 99 frogs for this reason (though he can still have them for other reasons such as it "being reasonable").

To Excal: I've always been annoyed with the idea of banning or nerfing skills because... it makes the other people in the cast look better.  If you allow max skills, then just allow them.  Don't ban them because it makes everyone else suck.  That's just silly.

Of course, there are other more reasonable reasons to not allow them at max, so it's kind of moot, but that's not a very good one.

[Excal]

It's less that it makes everyone suck, and more that there's no curve.  You have half the cast that's doing the exact same damage.  Take those skills out, or find ways to reasonably ground them (ie. tie Frog Drop to Gastro Fork levels) and you get yourself a nice curve which is far more interesting.

[Dhyerwolf]

You don't actually fight that many dragons enemy just running through FF 9 normally (maybe 20-30, and 30 doesn't even break 1000 since it's not 100*Dragons Killed, it's Dragons Killed Squared). However, Dragon Crest is fairly twinkable (But...you really have to start Dragon hunting to make it matter by the same token). It's certainly more respectable than Thievery, but Dragon Crest again isn't in the topic since I can't think of any proper baseline for it. And yes, Grand Dragons are awesome for EXP! And for powerlevelling, which we don't consider.

On the note of time for stealing...yes, 300 steals is a lot. FF 9 is sloooow. Assuming stealing takes 10 seconds, you are looking at adding on near an hour of game time just to get in all of steals, most of which aren't really worth it. Sure, you can steal lots of Hi-Potions, and use them to heal! But...you don't really need them at all. So basically, you are just running around stealing to raise Thievery, which is just powerbuilding.

[Magic Fanatic]

On the note of time for stealing...yes, 300 steals is a lot. FF 9 is sloooow. Assuming stealing takes 10 seconds, you are looking at adding on near an hour of game time just to get in all of steals, most of which aren't really worth it. Sure, you can steal lots of Hi-Potions, and use them to heal! But...you don't really need them at all. So basically, you are just running around stealing to raise Thievery, which is just powerbuilding.

I feel silly for being an in-game kleptomaniac then.  As said earlier, a lot of the time, Zidane's turn is going to be worthless, so might as well have him steal...  But for sake of argument, stealing is a skill allowed by a few temps (Blank being in for two bosses and a small section of forest, Cinna for one boss, and Marcus with Garnet for when it wouldn't make sense for her to have Zidane...  But by and large, no matter where you are in the game - with exception to that place after the No Magic Allowed clause and MAYBE some of Terra - you ALWAYS have at least one thief in your party).

'Sides, with that last note...  You almost make it sound like semi-speedrunning the game is the only way to go for stats.

On a completely random note...

Post-endgame skills get 'grandfathered in' to me due to my views on uniqueness. Terra gets Ultima. Fei gets Yamikei. The entire cast of Golden Sun deals average damage. Helps some, hurts others.

Terra and Fei are not being viewed as actually levelled past normal endgame levels, they were just gifted with these skills a few levels early, and scaled as such.

Terra might lose that Ultima, because I have an FF6-nuttish friend who claims that due to a bug in the game's programming, all characters learn Ultima at level 99.  I have no idea if it's true, though (I do NOT have that kind of patience).

[DjinnAndTonic]

Oh yeah, I forgot that Blank and Cinna could Steal, too. Guess it's not unique to Zidane after all. No arguments for max steals anymore... not even joking ones.

Pretty sure it's only Terra.

[Ultradude]

Oh yeah, I forgot that Blank and Cinna could Steal, too. Guess it's not unique to Zidane after all. No arguments for max steals anymore... not even joking ones.

Pretty sure it's only Terra.

Probably a good thing I don't count barely-there temps against a permanent party member for purposes of uniqueness.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I dunno if the temps' Steal even boosts Thievery or not.

'Sides, with that last note...  You almost make it sound like semi-speedrunning the game is the only way to go for stats.

And you make it sound like having Zidane do nothing but steal is the only way to go, despite the fact that this makes battles take 33% longer.

Generally speaking we shy away from pure building. Collecting a finite number of things is usually seen as okay even if it takes time (see FFX celestial weapons), but building up a limitless number less so. "What's reasonable to get without stopping to really grind for this" seems fair to aim for, otherwise all these things end up maxed when, using the same time, you could just level everyone to 70-80 (at which point I imagine a number of other characters would join the 9999 club... possibly even everyone!).

[Dhyerwolf]

Zidane's base physical is even averagish damage for a decently long while. FF 9's damage average explodes in disk 3. Per by boss topic notes, you start with about 1500 damage average on disk 3. By the end of the disk, it's more like 6000. So most of the game, Zidane's base physical (Which you can boost with Slayer skills if appropriate, and maybe some skill to make it use MP and do more damage? Don't remember there) isn't that bad damage, and certainly not a wasted turn.

[PKNintendo]

I dunno if the temps' Steal even boosts Thievery or not.

'Sides, with that last note...  You almost make it sound like semi-speedrunning the game is the only way to go for stats.

And you make it sound like having Zidane do nothing but steal is the only way to go, despite the fact that this makes battles take 33% longer.

Generally speaking we shy away from pure building. Collecting a finite number of things is usually seen as okay even if it takes time (see FFX celestial weapons), but building up a limitless number less so. "What's reasonable to get without stopping to really grind for this" seems fair to aim for, otherwise all these things end up maxed when, using the same time, you could just level everyone to 70-80 (at which point I imagine a number of other characters would join the 9999 club... possibly even everyone!).

The Mark/Blank/Cinna trio count towards your steal ratio.
XD

Steiner: Hey cretin, what are you doing?
Marcus: Stealing to boost Thievery, just because I suck, doesn't mean Zidane has too.
Steiner: QGBDIPAHOIDH (aka, Steiner spazzing)

Hey Dhyerwolf, don't forget that at the point of Disk 3 where his power explodes, your team gets pretty powerful, to the point that there's NO point in Zidane attacking. I mean your 3/4 members do it fine.

PS: How can you ban Terra's ultima if other's can get it via glitch? That's a bit much don't ya think?

[Dark Holy Elf]

You're misinformed, no glitch that gives other characters Ultima via levels exists.

[ThePiggyman]

On the note of time for stealing...yes, 300 steals is a lot. FF 9 is sloooow. Assuming stealing takes 10 seconds, you are looking at adding on near an hour of game time just to get in all of steals, most of which aren't really worth it. Sure, you can steal lots of Hi-Potions, and use them to heal! But...you don't really need them at all. So basically, you are just running around stealing to raise Thievery, which is just powerbuilding.

I don't think it's so much wasting a turn, but more so using a turn productively. Assuming you can kill all the enemies without requiring Zidane to attack (which happens fairly often, especially when Steiner, Freya or Amarant are present), Zidane can Steal, which has far more benefits than powerbuilding Thievery. Something that disappears pretty fast in FF9 is money, especially if you hang on to old equipment for synthesis purposes, so that crap that you steal can pay off. Ores are what, 150 gil a pop? Over half of enemies in FF9 can be stolen an Ore from (I think?), among other, even pricier items (Ethers? Phoenix Pinions?).

This is just my two cents, and I don't expect to change your opinion on the matter. I'm just stating the validity behind why I believe Thievery could be fairly considered to be stronger than his physical.

[Tide]

I don't think it's so much wasting a turn, but more so using a turn productively

.

Eh, that depends. If your ATB turn order is Zidane <-- Freya <-- Amarant <-- Enemies <--Steiner, I would not wait for Steiner and just make Zidane attack. Especially if he can also kill the enemy. If you also need a certain party formation for that to happen, I wouldn't count it as productive since you effectively lock out other potential party members in favour of Zidane stealing (which is an evidence bias towards power levelling but hey!).

Not to mention in game, you can twink Zidane's physical to the point where he effectively keeps up with other party members. Killer skill + MP Crit.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Which is more mileage for your Zidane offense on average than Thievery twinking for a lot less effort.

[ThePiggyman]

I don't think it's so much wasting a turn, but more so using a turn productively

.

Eh, that depends. If your ATB turn order is Zidane <-- Freya <-- Amarant <-- Enemies <--Steiner, I would not wait for Steiner and just make Zidane attack. Especially if he can also kill the enemy. If you also need a certain party formation for that to happen, I wouldn't count it as productive since you effectively lock out other potential party members in favour of Zidane stealing (which is an evidence bias towards power levelling but hey!).

Not to mention in game, you can twink Zidane's physical to the point where he effectively keeps up with other party members. Killer skill + MP Crit.

True enough, Zidane'll usually go before the others, but startomg ATB can make Steiner, Amarant or Freya go before him. But that's getting finnicky, the point being that stealing is a perfectly valid substitute to attacking.

Twinking can only happen for so long. Once Zidane's MP runs out (which won't take long, with his ridiculously low score), he's back to damage that can't compare to the others. And Killer abilities are touchy. You're not gonna spend all your points on Killer abilities, and even then, they only target certain enemies, so twinking is a bit more complex for anyone in that respect.

EDIT: To snow, I have to add that it wouldn't necessary to steal on EVERY single battle. 300 shouldn't take too, too long, honestly.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

But it sorta does. Steal is an inaccurate command (until lateish game with crystal skills) that deals either no damage or terrible damage (and that's with the skills!) and the game only counts successful steals towards the Thievery count, and using it in randoms at all is honestly counter-productive, since you have good enough odds of having it do nothing and then you wasted an entire fight trying to steal. I honestly can't see why would Thievery grinding be more efficient than just intelligent twinking, but that's just a show on how Zidane was sorta poorly designed in FF9: they overestimated the worth of Steal even with the many steps they took to make it worth your time.

[ThePiggyman]

Well, your points are valid, too. Steal indeed doesn't become surefire 'til you get Bandit. I'll leave it that, I guess. Just felt like pitching in the issue.

[Meeplelard]

I think i should note that Zidane's physical in game is CONSISTENTLY good damage after a point.  He gets MP Attack reasonably early, and his weapons are always upper end, backed up with his good strength (and spirit for Thief Swords.)  MP Attack does not use much MP, in honesty, and you can use Tents in battle if you were so fearing him running out.  Furthermore, slayer skills exist too and they help a bunch knowing which to use (Bird Killer should ALWAYS be used for example; hits every single flying enemy in the game, for example.)  Some mirco-management is involved of course (need to know what you're going to face each dungeon, but you can adapt that pretty quickly), but yeah.

Not hard to get Zidane hurling 9k damage physicals end game. 

In this respect, the DL does ims-represent Zidane one way or another.  If you let him have twinked thievery, then it badly imsrepresents his Physical vs. Thievery scenario, cause his physical is much easier to boost and keep up at high damage in game than Thievery.  Flipside, Zidane being bottom of the barrel on damage is also just misrepresenting cause in game, for a number of reasons, he had damage.

Sadly, the DL does not translate everyone properly.  People like Steiner and Dagger translate well due to their nature, but then Zidane doesn't translate well cause of just how cards play.  The one condolence he has is that Soul Blade is a lot more useful in the DL than in game (rarely did a useful status exist on Zidane's optimal weapon in game), such like Masamune's Doom actually gets consistent use in the DL, being able to kick in before Zidane can kill with damage.  In game, that'll almost NEVER occur, unless your team was incredibly offensively inept (nevermind how late Zidane gets Masamune too...)

Zidane might not translate, but at least he's not as bad off as, say, FF6 Relm, who was 100% reliant on the Esper System to be worth something in FF6, and she wasn't half bad there, but in the DL, she's pretty much a text book light.

Some characters translate, others do not.  Zidane's just an example of someone who doesn't really translate at all, in the sense of being like his In Game self.  In game, he's one of your best physical damage dealers throughout the course of the game, and a potentially obscene boss slayer for about 80% of the game if Trance kicks in.  DL, he's a pure status whore, for the most part.

[PKNintendo]

Well, your points are valid, too. Steal indeed doesn't become surefire 'til you get Bandit. I'll leave it that, I guess. Just felt like pitching in the issue.

But isn't bandit gotten EARLY?

Some characters translate, others do not.  Zidane's just an example of someone who doesn't really translate at all, in the sense of being like his In Game self.  In game, he's one of your best physical damage dealers throughout the course of the game, and a potentially obscene boss slayer for about 80% of the game if Trance kicks in.  DL, he's a pure status whore, for the most part.

I don't know, but that sounds negative to me. But isn't being a status a good thing? I mean, I can safely say that Zidane will outplay Steiner. While Steiner bashes his foes to submission, Zidane can strategically deal with his foes.

PS: Zidane's base for Str is stronger than Steiner and Freya. XD

[Excal]

The problem with Zidane's status game is that he's not all that versatile about it.  He has one status, period, that he has to pick before going in.  And if that gets spoiled, then he's toast.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Steiner's pretty well established to be the best dueller of the core FF9 PCs. Tin Armour combined with his party-best HP gives him a lot of durability, and he's got as much damage as an FF9 PC can have. He's still not amazing, but he's made the Heavy finals once with a good draw. A really low damage:durability view of the DL would make Zidane better though. Although then I think Garnet would take over as the best dueller, status + healing beats just status.

Also, Steiner has more STR than Zidane. Not that it matters, since weapon power dominates STR, and at several points Zidane has better weapons.

[Tide]

But isn't bandit gotten EARLY?

It's not just the time it is available; it's also the crystals you have to sacrifice to equip it. In any case, the crystal cost IIRC was 3 points, which is pretty tame. But it does mean that early on when you can't adjust your physical as much, you still might not have the points to use it. And later on, your physical twinking options might be more open so spending 3 points for it might not be worth it. YMMV there. But I'll note that personally, I never used Bandit on subsequent replays since I stole mainly from bosses.

I don't know, but that sounds negative to me. But isn't being a status a good thing? I mean, I can safely say that Zidane will outplay Steiner. While Steiner bashes his foes to submission, Zidane can strategically deal with his foes.

Problem with Zidane's status is what Excal said. He is effectively locked into one status a match, despite the fact that he does have several types available. Contrast this with say Beowulf, and you can see how this hurts Zidane's duelling worth. It gets even worse since most people allow at least one status blocker. If they can block a crippling status like say Mini, Zidane is basically forced to outslug. And thanks to the high damage average of end game in FF9 (6000 or something), it means almost he inevitably loses if it comes down to this since his raw staying power and damage are not that far above average. This is how Zidane loses to someone like Luca Blight despite stopping most of Luca's tricks with Soul Blade and fire resisting equipment. He has a couple of things going for him (speed + FF9 equips for example), but yeah for the most part Zidane doesn't translate well. However? He still owns the FF8 cast.

PS: Zidane's base for Str is stronger than Steiner and Freya. XD

FF9 damage is actually largely determined by weapon power as NEB alluded to. This is actually how a level 1 game is possible! >_> <_<

[Dhyerwolf]

Having one of his statuses effectively check ID immunity helps with status protection though. Also, if you let Mini hit Luca, Zidane kind of breezes through the match.

[Meeplelard]

HP is directly affected by a character's Strength Stat; this is why raising Strength on a Mage is not a stupid idea (similarly, Magic affects MP Growth, so raising that for a Fighter serves a purpose.)  IIRC, Zidane's base strength is 4th highest in the game, but due to FF9 stat nonsense, and how Freya is only marginally better, Zidane ends up being #2 in practice; Steiner should always beat him, being available early, and game best strength and all that.

Zidane does have game best spirit, though, which is worth noting when comparing to Steiner as both their best weapons use that as part of the damage equation.  I think they both end up getting roughly the same damage mult from their stats, so weapons are what matter most, and Zidane has easily the strongest weapon in the game by far outside of Excalibur II.  In Steiner's Credit, though, I believe Excalibur + Holy Strengthen ends up very similar to Zidane using Ultima Weapon, so they're roughly equal, with Zidane winning against higher defense (due to how the numbers work), and Steiner winning against Holy weak targets.  This only matters in game, mind, cause DL Steiner should just be hurling Shock.  In game, Shock's MP cost makes it actually restrictive (he can fire off like 3 shots before needing to recharge), so being able to opt for a Physical that can be twinked for 9k~ damage costing only 10~ MP (due to MP attack) over Shock's 60 or whatever is a big deal.

In any event, yeah, of the main PC cast, Steiner's probably the best, cause he's just well built for duels.  Offhand, only Garnet really has an argument over him, I'd say, trading in a lot of durability for healing and (unreliable status), and a little higher speed (though the Durability should offset for all slug fest concerns.)  Oh, she also can resist Holy, the one element Steiner CAN'T resist, IIRC.  Steiner probably comes out ahead, since the durability edge is just that massive, with Tin Armor + Game Best HP, enough to offset all of Garnet's advantages.  He even has Limit Parasitic Healing! *ignores how Blood Sword is crap*

Zidane isn't totally helpless in the DL, but he doesn't translate well despite being a good PC in game.  Again, its just a case of where someone could take advantage of the game's system rather well, and become effective in game, but in the DL, most of those factors become illegal for one reason or another, and he gets slammed hard for that reason.  A variety of games have a character like this, Zidane just happens to be FF9's example.

And...

Regarding Zidane vs. Luca, FF9 Blind is pretty damn good, so if you give Zidane a Thievery that's anywhere remotely close to his physical, he should be able to beat Luca with The Ogre Soul Blade + Fire Immunity <_< >_>

[Tide]

Well I was trying to find a match where it kind of highlights the problems of Zidane being forced to slugfest. But running on 4.5 hours sleep is probably not the best idea >_>. Anyways, I should've clarified the assumptions there. But yes, there are some ways of interperating that fight to let him win.

[OblivionKnight]

Random question - anyone have the stats and numbers for Excalibre II for Steiner?  Granted, I think I'm the only one that allows it, but hey, unique is unique >_>

How much would that help him in the DL, off-hand? 

Hell, maybe I'll go grab stats for it myself >_>