The DL Tweak League: Noms

[Magic Fanatic]

MagicFanatic: Let... me think on that. He'd be insane spoilerbait, but far more likely to -be- spoiled than, say, the Lich build; gut says people from multi-hit systems are more common than people with competent Holy damage. This being said not sure how many multi-hit people we'll even have in.

That's why the Huge Jug is there - it gives Joaquim an effective 80 SP.  If he needs it, then the Dark Angel could boost that to an effective 96 SP...  And considering that he resists just about everything...  Yeah.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Re: Zell vs Quistis:  Go ahead and put in Quistis per Snowfire's plans in this Season.  I'll probably come up with an Ability/Command or Magic based person at a later date, but again I see Snowfire's idea brings FF8 Characters to "Standard RPG Party Member" Status with higher HP and access to Status Defense as brilliant. 

The only thing missing from that idea is direct access to her Blue Magic; which is why, IMO, if she's not good enough as-is that giving her the ability to cast Aura should be first on the revisions list, as opposed to any abilities that a stock DL'er would not normally have (i.e. Elemental Defense).

Other people's Poke Ideas:

Personally, I'm not a fan of putting Legendaries (or Heavy-rated Pokemon per Mepple period) in this tourney unless as a Team DL Defender.  The only thing I can think of to improve Ray is give it the Beams (Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt) with Dragon Claw for STAB.  Leftovers help here too.  Alternately, Gen 4 can have Outrage/Dragon Pulse/Thunderwave/Filler with Persim Berry (Prevents Confusion, Replenished between matches).  Because let's face it:  Who can block Dragon Attacks?  (Famous last words, much?)

Gardevoir would already make a solid heavy

That's why I didn't consider her (Gardy has a 4th Gen gives a Male-Only Branch.)  Furthermore, Trace doesn't work that way.  Trace copies the listed ability of Gardevoir's current opponent.  Defense and Speed EVs could help if permitted, but... Trace just doesn't work that well against other RPGs.  (Out of the current list of 10 plus Quistis, Trace would only work thus far against DS!Cecil and possibly Yulie.  Would work against my Zell, but I'm holding off on an Ability/Command Build until Season 2.)


Ultradude:
Gen4 Heracross
Ability: Guts
Nature: Jolly, EV Dependent
Item: Burn Orb  (Hence, Gen 4)
Moves:
Facade
Aerial Ace
Revenge
Swords Dance

Ultradude's moveset allows for Sleep/Paralysis/Poison immunity via the Flame Orb, with Guts neutralizing Burn's Attack Nerf.  And with 'Cross at 85% of Average Speed, Revenge going last probably won't hurt that much.  Still needs to get the job done quickly, as 'Cross dies in 8 Turns even if the opponent is allowed to use Defend all of the time.

Actually, Revenge vs Facade:  Revenge only gains +10 Power and the Fighting Type (how useful it is outside of Pokemon is limited) vs. practically always going last, but with Heracross at sub-Average speed, it doesn't matter as often as you'd think.  Still, since both types are physical, it's better to have 1 move or the other.  I would recommend Earthquake (another Physical) as the replacement, as Ground is a more common RPG Element (though not as common as Fire/Ice/Lightning). 

Also, Revenge would make the Jolly nature pointless.  If you want to keep Revenge, then I suggest using Adamant Nature.  Not sure how you'd spread your EVs, though.  If you're insistent on having 'Cross at Average Speed, then use Facade instead.

As for Aerial Ace, it's quite the attack nerf compared to Facade and Revenge and even Earthquake (60 vs 140, 150, and 100 respectively).  Sure it's deadly accurate, but Burn's guaranteed 8TKO means that 'Cross is up against the clock and if someone's not vulnerable to Jump (or Wind, depending on interpret.,) then then it just doesn't have the power 'Cross needs.   

Re:Heracross, turn 1 Protect will activate the Flame Orb while Hera's untouchable and it's status immune from there on out.

Works as Move #4.  Megahorn is inaccurate, so it's better to keep Facade OR Revenge (But not both) but is actually better than Revenge or Facade even after factoring accuracy (180 X .85 = 153 > 150 > 140).  Earthquake hits a more common element than any of the above 3 do.  Swords Dance can work with this strategy in theory, but 'Cross is up against the clock again.

So replace Facade and Revenge with Megahorn and Earthquake respectively, and swap either Aerial Ace OR Swords Dance for Protect.  Or just drop Earthquake for Protect if there isn't anyone weak to Ground.


Yoshiken:
Gen. 4 Machamp
Ability: No Guard.
Item: Muscle Band/Lum Berry
Moves:
Dynamicpunch
Stone Edge
Bulk Up
some elemental punch (instinct says Thunder, since water types from any RPG seem to be defensive)
EV-training for optimum speed

Neat trick.  Again Status vunerability (after Turn 1), plus cited concerns re:Confusion Preventors do have some validity.  Just too bad he (75%) doesn't have a OHKO of his own.  Hinode's further points on Elemental Resists are also valid.  You could try to construct a moveset based on the Guts Stat, but 'Cross is better on average.


Finally, I reiterate my own suggestion regarding Blissey:

Gen 4 Blissey
Ability: Serene Grace
Item: Flame Orb (Hence, Gen. 4)
Moves:
Softboiled
Counter
Psychic
Ice Beam

I basically thought that Softboiled would balance out the HP drain of Burn.  Then again, Hinode's Protect strat vs. Fast Turn 1 Status Whores (even bigger concern with Blissey than 'Cross) gives me pause.  The only move I can see dropping to allow Protect here is Counter, which takes away a keen weapon against Fighters.  Alternately, there's Lum Berry again, but that's a 1-shot.  The key to the moveset is Ice Beam+Serene Grace=Virtual 5HKO (resistance to Freeze Status is rare among RPGs).  Psychic is there just for the Ice-immunes.

I didn't think about Natures or EV Spreading.  If natures are allowed, definitely one that would nerf Attack.  Probably Modest, as Spec Def is already high.  No EVs in Attack or Defense, I'm certain of that.  I'd probably boost HP (Yeah, like that needs a boost) and likely SA since that matches the nature.

[Ultradude]

Comments in Bold

Ultradude:
Gen4 Heracross
Ability: Guts
Nature: Jolly, EV Dependent
Item: Burn Orb  (Hence, Gen 4)
Moves:
Facade
Aerial Ace
Revenge
Swords Dance

Ultradude's moveset allows for Sleep/Paralysis/Poison immunity via the Flame Orb, with Guts neutralizing Burn's Attack Nerf.  And with 'Cross at 85% of Average Speed, Revenge going last probably won't hurt that much.  Still needs to get the job done quickly, as 'Cross dies in 8 Turns even if the opponent is allowed to use Defend all of the time.

Problem I think... is that you're counting base stats, vs. actual stats. Just using PsyPoke's data, Heracross' base speed is 85, but it's actual speed at 50 is 105 - which we're comparing to a 100 average. With just EVs and no nature, it comes to 137, which is just plain fast. I'm no PKMN calculations expert, but that's pretty much exactly what all the references I use are telling me is the case, that base stats =/= actual stats at 50, which is what I'm going off of.

Actually, Revenge vs Facade:  Revenge only gains +10 Power and the Fighting Type (how useful it is outside of Pokemon is limited) vs. practically always going last, but with Heracross at sub-Average speed, it doesn't matter as often as you'd think.  Still, since both types are physical, it's better to have 1 move or the other.  I would recommend Earthquake (another Physical) as the replacement, as Ground is a more common RPG Element (though not as common as Fire/Ice/Lightning). 

Common elements are probably something to avoid, not look for. Unlike competitive PKMN, the DL means that you're fighting resistance far more often than weaknesses, so having elements to be resisted just limits your offense. Fighting type is great here, because it's not even an element in other games, so Heracross is for all intents and purposes just using a really nasty physical. Also, if he's trying to OHKO, Close Combat has no particular donwsides.

Also, Revenge would make the Jolly nature pointless.  If you want to keep Revenge, then I suggest using Adamant Nature.  Not sure how you'd spread your EVs, though.  If you're insistent on having 'Cross at Average Speed, then use Facade instead.

Addressed above, 'cross with Adamant nature and EVs is both fast and damaging.

As for Aerial Ace, it's quite the attack nerf compared to Facade and Revenge and even Earthquake (60 vs 140, 150, and 100 respectively).  Sure it's deadly accurate, but Burn's guaranteed 8TKO means that 'Cross is up against the clock and if someone's not vulnerable to Jump (or Wind, depending on interpret.,) then then it just doesn't have the power 'Cross needs.

Yeah, it's pretty much just a desperation thing if it's going up against like... Arnaud or something, since he probably doesn't get OHKOd without Burn, and Illusion...

Re:Heracross, turn 1 Protect will activate the Flame Orb while Hera's untouchable and it's status immune from there on out.

Works as Move #4.  Megahorn is inaccurate, so it's better to keep Facade OR Revenge (But not both) but is actually better than Revenge or Facade even after factoring accuracy (180 X .85 = 153 > 150 > 140).  Earthquake hits a more common element than any of the above 3 do.  Swords Dance can work with this strategy in theory, but 'Cross is up against the clock again.

Swords Dance is purely for when 'cross can buy a turn against a tanky (or buffing) healer, really. SD brings it up to OHKOing almost any PC with Close Combat or Megahorn, though again, it's pretty situational. Also maybe against super durable but low damaging guys, who it'll hurt more in the long run potentially.

So replace Facade and Revenge with Megahorn and Earthquake respectively, and swap either Aerial Ace OR Swords Dance for Protect.  Or just drop Earthquake for Protect if there isn't anyone weak to Ground.

Ground weakness is so hilariously uncommon that EQ doesn't help at all, and STAB make Megahorn or Close Combat (or Revenge) way stronger. I'll agree that SD is really situational, but Aerial Ace feels like good insurance, and with the speed thing I pointed out, Revenge stops being very good, and Facade is weaker than CC given STAB, mostly there for type coverage in competition.

[Yoshiken]

I wouldn't say you should -avoid- elements. I'd just say they're not as useful in the DL as they are in-game. If your opponent has a resistance to an elemental attack, you don't use it, simple as that.

[hinode]

With only 4 moveslots, you simply don't have room to try for elemental variety. This isn't like an FF mage who has several dozen spells in his or her arsenal, you need to pick the four moves with the most utility in a fight and not something that might come in handy once every 100 fights or so.

Heracross benefits from having 2 STAB types that are pretty close to non-elemental in the DL, which means there is no reason whatsoever to use any other attack type, as they're never going to outdamage 180 effective power unresisted. They're basically never going to run into elemental weakness either, except maybe against another Pokemon. Literally every other PC in this tournament should have no weaknesses, as even the Persona PCs can go for resistance armor that isn't DL legal.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Well, the whole "Reduces Both of User's Defense Stats" side effect of Close Combat makes me a little leery.  Miscalculated on Revenge a bit there, but again it's a "slow" move.  Also leery.  They net the same power, but Revenge does so only if you fall under attack; meaning it only hits with net Base 90 if not.  Protect+Flame Orb takes care of Status Attacks, but there's still buff-stalling.  Which wouldn't be a problem except for that 8-turn limit.

Let's see here:  With 1 Close Combat, the enemy's next hit will do 1.5 times as much damage.  The next CC, twice as much.  It actually stacks linearly.  All the while Burn is eating away at your HP at a constant 12.5%.  These factors make a normal 3HKO on 'Cross (who has normal Defenses and HP barring WRI) into a 2HKO.  Mepple's probably not going to get his Gen. 4 Dex to Furret before Heart-Gold/Soul-Silver get Stateside, let alone 'Cross, so we don't have standard Damage numbers for CC OR Revenge, but they should match Megahorn's Gross Damage of 108 (assuming again the opponent attacks all the time.)  We'll say 110 for round numbers.  With a Damage Average of 150... CC can work after Swords Dance. 

Mepple doesn't use TMs, but Horn Attack is Base 65 Normal, so we can use its damage value of 40 for the Base 60 Aerial Ace.  4HKO to Average, so he only has 50% of HP to spare.  (Protect, SD, AA, AA).  Meaning the opponent would normally have to be no better than 6HKO with best damage, and that's allowing a turn to set up said evasion.  Not sure you get good mileage there.

On the other hand... 'Cross can neutralize that Fire Weakness with Rain Dance.  By the time the rain stops, the battle likely will have too.  And if the opponent has Turn 1 Status AND Fire Damage?  Turn 1 = Protect blocks anything offensive, Turn 2 can be Rain Dance, then go to town on Turn 3-4.

I also considered Brick Break, but CC's power, especially when Danced, is more than a match for most Barriers; it would only be useful against attacks like Earthbound's Shield Beta.  And I don't see Ness here, do you?

----

By the way, Regarding My Blissey, do you think I should ditch the "Hit Freeze on Turn 5" (effectively Turn 7 for Protect & at least 1 Softboiled) strategy and go with Psychic/Softboiled/Counter/Protect?  At least Blissey doesn't have a Fire Weakness...  Then again her only ITE attack is the Electric-type Shockwave, and the fact it's Electric Type bumps it from the roster.

My personal reason for favoring Blissey over other 'Mons like Alakazam (which can use a similar moveset to 'Cross to nice effect, except 'Zam has Recover but no AA) is that I want to really make the Items and the TMs the 'Mon.  'Zam and 'Cross are both Mepple-rated Heavies meaning they're almost to the level required, while Blissey's rated as a Light primarily because most of her DL-Legal Damage hits the wrong Attack Stat.  Originally I also wanted Serene Grace to have a Day in the Limelight, but Turn 5 Freeze probably wouldn't cut it.

[Ultradude]

Trust me, I've done the damage figures for Heracross. If we take max attack EVs + Flame Orb/Guts + Adamant taken against 100 def, the damage is OHKO. Gen 4 stat topic puts damage average at 71, kill point at 177. Heracross beats that by a healthy margin without SD. The defense drop isn't mattering, because he's trying to set up the OHKO if he's using Close Combat.

I think we're getting numbers from different places. Or looking at them in a different way.

As for Aerial Ace, the numbers I'm basing it off of have it at 3HKO, and high evasion guys are often not the tankiest (and Aerial Ace is arguably wind for FE BIRD KILLING).

EDIT: Sadly, the only really hax Serene Gracer for DL purposes is the likely Heavy anyways Togekiss with it's flinch hax.

Now, Charizard can be made to OHKO with Flamethrower/Flare Blitz with EVs, nature, and Life Orb, and have 2HKO non-fire backups with Dragon Pulse and Wing Attack.

[Meeplelard]

If we're talking Heracross for a tweak, his damage moves should be Close Combat and Mega Horn.  He MAY want Reversal for that extra Limit aspect, meaning you don't want him at low health, but that's a gimmick move.

Messing with shit like Facade and what not is pointless.  As hinode said, Hera's got 2 STABs in the DL that are close to non-elemental, he doesn't need anything else.  Remember, unlike in Pokemon, Weaknesses are NOT common.  Primary damage being Non-Elemental means you won't need anything more.  For this reason, Hera's only gonna want something like Close Combat and/or Mega Horn.  Actually, he may want both; Close Combat's more reliable, Mega Horn lacks the durability killing downside.

Something like Aerial Ace serves a purpose, but NOT for "FLYING WEAKNESS!" It exists purely to deal wtih evasion whores; that's a viable use, but hyping it for anything beyond that is silly.

Burn Orb idea with Guts may work.  Its a weak status for Status Immunity *AND* 50% more damage.  I'm not sure Heracross needs anything more.

Also, lets keep the number of Pokemon Tweaks down, please?  Heracross is a neat idea, but why bring Machamp when he's a very similar thing? Ok, so he adds...Dynamic Punch No Guard in, big whoop, he's still just "Big Physical damage" for the most part. 

The Blissey set up, lets be frank, fails.  Blissey is slow as fuck, which is a huge problem in the DL, Counter serves little to no purpose in this setting considering how people view things with CTB, and there's a lot more painful status, and its offense isn't good enough.  Blissey is not getting into Heavy/Godlike, despite how it can play with Ubers in the Metagame.  Ubers in Pokemon =/= Godlike in the DL, for all that they are equivalent in their level of greatness.  The DL has many more shit that Blissey has to deal with that Pokemon does NOT have, and these problems are things that make Blissey a really bad dueler, despite being one of the big useful things.

[Ultradude]

Admittedly, Aerial Ace flier killing was just me being silly.

I'd still maybe see it that way, but Close Combat's still usually better.

Alright, anyone have any Golden Sun twinks? Berserker Garet has like 120% speed, trades 10% less defense for 10% more HP, might have 2HKO with Planet Diver, Impair, can still Stun with Scorch while also having Vine for speed busting and Ground for Paralyze (though he can only use one Unleash without dropping a class). Or Luminier, which is regular Garet with a little more attack, above average speed, full healing, and some water Djinn.

As for equips, he can equip the powerful (126 attack) Muramasa with a medium-activation super strong fire unleash, and a Cleric Ring to negate its curse. Then he can equip... Ninja Hood, Running Shirt, Quick Boots, and Elven Guard to get 358 freaking speed (on Berserker, a bit less but still nuts on Luminier), and toss in a Mirrored Shield (which can add Delusion!) to help cover the defense loss. Yeah, adding in stuff like undershirts, boots, and rings really helps the cast in some fun ways.

[hinode]

EDIT: Sadly, the only really hax Serene Gracer for DL purposes is the likely Heavy anyways Togekiss with it's flinch hax.

Skymin is hands down the best Serene Grace haxer for the DL, but it's already high Heavy with just level-up moves so there's no tweak potential.

[Glen Veil]

If Lilka with status and defense PS's is too good for heavy, you could try Tim with Raftina and a Talisman, with a variable level of HP Up or Defense PS's.  It basically allows Tim to heal by invincible spamming instead og getting outright heal locked, which gives him time to actually put out his damage.  Even with full HP Up used Tim would still only be at about 95% average PCHP,  and that's if you factor him being the only one to get the HP Up PS. So still OHKO bait for harder hitting heavies I think?  Also means he can generally null speed advantages once/if he gets his first turn since he can just invincible through doubles.

Would be a decent resource/tank type spoiler, hates buffers, status, and heavy hitters.

Alternatively I think the sheriff star has the same effect but would also boost Tim's speed so you could forgo the hp boost, generally just have him be more frail but in return spoil elements, both are kinda on the air of being a bit too good for heavy, but I'm kinda hoping Tim's craptastic HP pool would be the balancing factor.

[DjinnAndTonic]

And here's one from another series which loses a lot of its DL variety due to customability: Chrono Cross.

Proposing a Serge w/ White Elements build.

Serge
Chrono Cross

Photon Ray Lv1 White attack spell
Meteorite Lv2 White attack spell
PhotonBeam *Lv3 White attack spell
MeteorShower *Lv4 White attack spell
HolyLight *Lv5 White attack spell, MT (also OHKOs Undead)
Ultranova x1 *Lv6 White attack spell, MT

RecoverAll *MT Heal (Unsure of percentage, says 'Medium')
HolyHealing *MT full healing/status healing
Purify *Heals all negative status
Revive *Revival + 25% healing
FullRevival *Revival with 100% healing

Turn White x1 *Gives opponent innate resistance to White, weakness to Black
Anti-Black x1 *ST, Seals use of all Dark-elemental skills/spells

x5WhiteOut *ITEM, heals Blind, godly.
x5Panacea *ITEM Heals all negative status

StrongMinded *Magic Up
WeakMinded *Magic Down
Magnify *Field Effect, all magic deals 1.5x damage
MagNegate *ST, all magic deals 0x damage

Saints x1 *Summon, requires full white field. MT Healing and White Damage

(SERGE TECH) Dash&Slash
(SERGE TECH) Luminaire x1
(SERGE TECH) Flying Arrow

Notes: With Elements, Serge gets some interesting Magic manipulation tricks with Strong/Weak-Minded, plus a Field Effect to increase ALL spell damage by 1.5. MagNegate is an ST Magical invincibility move that he can get from the store. An interesting magical spoiler. Pretty awesome Heavy/Low Godlike? Also, spoils Lich Warren! Still has that pesky problem of having to build up magic power to use his good stuff. And being elementally-reliant. But now he has more shots of good damage.

[Tide]

Question for Tai: Are we allowed to use Not Ranked characters but not obscura (thinking of a XF twink build here)?

[Ultradude]

...Any input on super-Garet? Please?

[Sir Donald 3.2]

All I can say on Beserker-Garet is which Earth Dijinn will you not attach?  Beserker needs 6 Venus and 1 Mars (I'd use Flash for that, so Granite might be the extra.)    Same question with Luminier for the Mercury Dijinn, esp. since the Mercury Dijinn Shield is in TLA.  Probably Spritz, as it's revival.  Also, in both cases, any unleash = Instant Demotion.  Berserker only adds ID and Haunt (granted, the latter could be nasty... if it could be charted).  Personally, I'd rather go with Luminier's Full Healing.  (Garet personally might not take it so well, however; reference an old standby by Nate Grey, "Sweet & Sour" (as linked from Fanfiction.net)  )

As for Equip:  You should add Storm Gear for the Water/Wind/Fire Resists (+30 each, and +42 Def ain't bad, only 2 less than Dragon Scales which doesn't have the Wind Res, and 6 more than storebought Steel Armor.)  I would also swap Mirror Shield out for Earth Shield, which adds 20 Earth Resist. at a cost of -8 Def vs MS.  (Or, if you go Beserker, -7 Def for +10 Atk. via War Gloves, as added Venus Dijinn serve as well for Elemental Res.)  Or just swap out per the situation.  I didn't find Elven Guard in the 1st game's Item list...  Rest of Speed Buffing's alright.  Note, however, that with Cleric's Ring, Thunder Crown becomes available, which adds 12 Def and regens 4 PP per turn at a cost of the +20 Agility Bonus from Ninja Hood.  Useful if Garet doesn't need to be that fast... 

Basically, do you want Garet to have 2 Elements at 150-160 (Beserker) or Garet with 1 Element at 110 plus Full Healing (Luminier)?

I'm also assuming here that you're considering GS Part 1 only.  Reply if otherwise.  (Then I'd have to ask why you didn't say Chaos Lord or Radiant.)


BTW, so we're going with Heracross with Guts, Adamant, Flame Orb, and Close Combat/Swords Dance/Protect/Aerial Ace?  I am still wondering about possible utility of Rain Dance vs AA, i.e. expectation of Fire-wielding foes vs expectation of evade whores with even max 4HKO damage (being generous to 'Cross again, IMO.)

[Ultradude]

Sorry, Elven Shirt, my bad.

Haven't finished TLA, or I'd definitely be tweaking even harder.

But yeah, the unleashes are for landing a basically fatal status that lets him finish the opponent off after the class change; and Barbarian is not a huge drop statistically, so he'll finish almost anyone before they recover from Stun. I want Scorch as my fire Djinn, because it's Stun off of that speed. Which means keeping Granite if Garet really needed the damage cutting, and dropping... Bane, poison on someone who blitzes like that. Anyone he isn't klling via Stun or Paralyze is probably status immune.

As for elemental buffers... Earth isn't common enough to make up for dropping defense and Delusion, though the attack from War Gloves might be better - making the basic physical a low 2HKO is on my list of things to make Garet do.

I do, however, really want the overkill speed, even against the def and PP regen - if only because I like the concept of super speedy Garet. He's H/G either way I think, so I'll push the speed.

Beats almost any PC that can't block multiple status, and that speed and Planet Diver let him outslug some bosses I imagine. Only dies to the really nasty boss sluggers, as well as most boss status users. Compared to that, Luminier loses a lot more quick draws and gets OHKOd by more, and the advantage of healing against slugger bosses. More interested in making him a status whore who's also crazy fast and strong over silly little versatility.

Heracross... any fire user who he doesn't OHKO is probably beating him anyways, aside from a few guys with weak back-up fire damage. Aerial Ace at least gives him a shot at Arnaud >_>

[DjinnAndTonic]

Except that GS Paralyze isn't that great.

[Ultradude]

Except that GS Paralyze isn't that great.

It's... a turn or 2 of paralysis beyond the application turn, dealt by a guy who 2HKOs off of ~200% speed.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Regarding Mirror Shield, I don't think that many people would allow an itemcast that "may break if used", tweak rules or not.  I certainly wouldn't.  The added Defense (+7 over War Gloves) is still a consideration, though.  Still, War Gloves' increased attack for Beserker (since you're commenting that way) is also worth considering.  Beserker's Venus Dijinn cover Earth Resists sufficiently that Earth Shield would not be necessary.  (It would be attractive for Luminier, but you're going Beserker.)

The Thunder Crown was merely an option for a little added Defense (+12); the PP restoration would've been icing.  Storm gear would be nice, but I can see the temptations of an added 50% Speed.  It's too bad the Fur Boots only raise Water Resist by 15. 

The way I see agility, you wouldn't really be able to double-turn.  In fact, with DL-stock, I only give Dragon Warrior 4's Alena a 7:5 turnsplit against average even though her Agility is up the Wazoo.  She's almost 4 Standard Deviations above the average barring her and Ragnar.  Then again, a 400 Agility Garet vs. Stat Topic Average's 155... I can see him taking a 3:2 split against DL Average.  Then again, the other contestants could take similar builds.  But, yeah:  First Strike alone wouldn't be worth a Water/Ice weakness on top of the Wind/Electric, as well as a loss of 12 Defense points;  a 3:2 Turnsplit vs. Average likely would be worth all of that.  Then again, Garet might need all that Agility to Guarantee 1st Strike.

[Ultradude]

Remember, this is H/G Twink League, not the usual overkill Twink League. We won't be seeing too many crazy fast people who don't have some sort of other flaw.

Of course, the argument in regards to respect for turn-based speed stands, and I wouldn't mind knowing how others see the situation.

[Yoshiken]

Just a point on the Spikes/Huge Jug Joachim... That SP isn't effectively doubled - when using the two together, the 1 SP from being hit while in Resist Defence rounds to 1. However, Will Power could work, right? Unless I'm missing something or the in-game description lies.

Edit: And, it turns out Will Power doesn't work. Screw you, game.

[Taishyr]

I'll be throwing in replies tomorrow sometime; at a check, we may have enough to run a season and see just how badly this concept blows up. Nin nin~

Anyway, will be back in with full comments soon.

[SnowFire]

Djinn's Serge: That might still be too good?  Chris is a decent Low Godlike who can also spoil, and the addition of MagNegate alone goes a long way.  Admittedly Serge's physicals are less impressive than Chris's, and he doesn't have her impenetrable defense, but the addition of all those other options means he might still be too good.  Beats me.

FF8: Well, there are a ton of builds possible.  Be happy to offer up more ideas later if necessary; the nice thing about that Quistis build is that it is rather straightforward for voting, at least, and doesn't have a complete maze of options.  Unlike...

FF12: I'd been thinking something along the lines of what Meeplelard mentioned.  Despite being arguably unique, throw Quickenings out because they're way too damn good for the DL setting.

Storebought weapons and armor...  well, Save the Queen is probably the best damage, so that becomes average damage (Don't really see Scathe as storebought, as it's an incredibly obscure secret store).  The best attack-status items are from hunts (Stone Shot for 25% Stone and Assassin's Arrows for 25% ID), and the rest have only a 10% chance or so of kicking in, so those aren't so bad.  Given a slow match, though, Vaan can inflict most statuses from weapons if need be.

A setup with a Main Gauche (34% Block Rate) and a good shield (Kaiser Shield gives 27% chance, Crystal Shield 25% chance /10% Magic, Aegis Shield gives 13% Physical Block, 50% Magical Block) is pretty badass once augments are allowed as well (+15% shield block from shield lores), so Main Gauche + Crystal + Lore = 74% block rate (!!!).  Granted the physical damage will be awful off the Gauche, but if we're allowing some Magic as well, that may be acceptable.  While on that note, the Defender greatsword isn't TOO much of a step down from the Save the Queen, and offers a 35% block rate (no shield, though).  Not too bad for slugfesting with.

Vaan also gets a variety of elemental attack weapons, which if we're giving him magic are mostly irrelevant anyway.  Some are big steps down in damage, others not so bad (Ame-no-Murakumo
 katana for wind damage / Holy Lance for Holy aren't bad, for example, or the best ninja swords for Dark damage....  though checking, storebought ninja swords are pretty bad, on second thought, the best ones are all Hunt drops).  Ivory Pole looks kind of meh, but is a physical attack that hits MDef and has a 25% block rate, so semi-interesting.

Allowing Augments...  already noted the Shield Block.  All the stat bonuses cancel, though magic becomes relatively slowly thanks to the Augments speeding physicals.  FF12 characters stats go up a bit at full health, and up a lot at low health (so a move like Sai is dangerous, since not only will it jack a FF12 character's defense and stats, it'll also make combos on their attack far more likely - 12 hit chains ahoy.)

Techniks aren't too big a deal, I guess Thousand Needles screws with very high defense characters (1,000 assured damage that's slow vs. 4300 damage from Save the Queen hits, only matters against true tanks) and Charge is good for looooooooong attrition fights.  Deathblow has some use vs. healers, and Telekinesis can beat flying evade at the cost of horrible damage.

Magic...  Magic's the big one.  On one hand, if we assume physicals are normal, Magic tends to be notably a bit slower, and has issues in-game due to only one magic effect going off at once, so I'd definitely call it a bit below average speed.  However it offers some pretty powerful options.  Bubble is a magnificent move given enough time in a slugfest - it doubles your max and your current HP.  This isn't helpful against infinitely spammable ITE attacks that do 66% PCHP or more damage - even after Bubble, they'll just finish the job.  But if that attack is constrained by resources, or if it can run into Physical Block / Magical Block (see the Main Gauche / Shield stalling technique above), Vaan just heals every attack until one gets blocked, Bubbles, then laughs mockingly.  Or constantly heals and lets the person run out of MP.  Haste is as usual awesome.  Protect and Shell are decent, and Shell halves your chance of being affected by status.  Bravery & Faith are okay damage buffers if that's needed.  Simply stalling into a buffing strategy is pretty good.

Additionally, if you lack healing that can be targeted to everyone and status, you arguably autolose to Reverse (all damage becomes healing, and vice-versa; only lasts 2 rounds because it's broken, but it's enough to do something then immediately recast, though opponents may be able to sneak in an action while Vaan is recasting.).  Vanish and Reflect makes life difficult for duelers with only magical or only physical attacks, and Vaan has Berserk to go with the Vanish option (though the hit rate is not good).  Vaan's got Dispel (always handy), various other status attacks at not good rates (Sleep, Silence, Slow, Stop, Disable....), and all flavors of elemental damage.

So yeah.  I think FF12, full license board, is probably Godlike, though not High Godlike.  Will have to think on it more, as it could probably be toned down, though I imagine votecount for FF12 would still be a bit low.

[DjinnAndTonic]

If you don't allow Quickenings, does that mean that Vaan would only have one MP bar? I'd recommend this personally as it makes spamming magic less trivial, and that'd put him a little closer to the Heavy/Godlike border.


On Serge, due to the fact that he can't access most of his good stuff on his first turn (needing stamina to build up element power), I don't think he's too strong for this tourney. Also, using his Elements at all after expending all his stamina just to -get- the fuel to cast them REALLY slows down his next turn...

[Cmdr_King]

Djinn's Serge: That might still be too good?  Chris is a decent Low Godlike who can also spoil, and the addition of MagNegate alone goes a long way.  Admittedly Serge's physicals are less impressive than Chris's, and he doesn't have her impenetrable defense, but the addition of all those other options means he might still be too good.  Beats me.

Actually... Serge can pull off a turn 1 OHKO.  While not listed in the stat topic, Mastermune's effect is to hit species weaknesses.  All of them.  So his effective damage is actually double what's listed in the stat topic.  This also applies to physical techs, so Attack String+Dash and Slash yields well over kill point in damage.

His troubles are that, like his entire cast, he's nailed hard by evade, his defensive abilities aren't significantly above average, and his speed is, generously, around average.

While I like Djinn's element grid setup (emphasises White's advantage's in game and gives him variety), I'd suggest additionally tossing a Dreamer's Sarong on him.  This is an accessory that grants 8 (7?  I forget which, but not relevant here) Element levels at the start of the fight.  This would let him cast at the start of the fight rather than relying on spending his first turn smacking things and, at some level, reduces his level of "total boned-ness" against the evasive at least a little.  Considering his damage is already Godlike-level, this is more about giving him time to layeth his smackdown rather than beefing up his power, but without completely cracking him out (he's still easy to out-speed, and truly evasive people still give him trouble.  he just has a fighting chance instead of going completely emo and doesn't cut himself against middling evade)