The DL Tweak League: Noms

[hinode]

Put Aerial Ace in the filler spot for the evasive and you've got a nasty little set. I was accounting somewhat for Megahorn's inaccuracy and Close Combat's self-debuff, given that with Burn Orb he's already in a tight spot if he needs to take a hit. Though yeah, the raw OHKO potential off that speed is H/G enough I guess.

If you're worried about taking hits, then giving him an STAB move that *forces* him to take hits via negative priority (and which isn't reliable damage anyways) certainly isn't the right answer!

[Clear Tranquil]

Meru (LoD)

Magic/Dragoon Tweak - Pretty Hammer, Magical Hat, Armour of Legend/Blue Sea Armour, Dancer's Shoes, Amulet w/th LoD stat up/down items

Perks - Pretty Hammer gives 400 SP w/th Cool Boogie meaning Meru can seriously rack up the SPs to stay in Dragoon form for multiple turns when she transforms, Magical Hat boosts MP and the magic stat,  negates water/ice - she could opt for the Rainbow Dress here instead but if she's going to spend most of the time in Dragoon form she'll be immuning status anyway, Meru + moar speed, doubles MP - combined with the Magical Hat that gives her 300 MP, enough for three Blue Sea Dragons and some left to spare for Rainbow Breath/Freezing Ring. I don't know if that alone's enough for what Tai's looking for though so I'm tossing in the stat up/down items as an option just in case. With Power Up/Down and the magic boost from the Magical Hat Blue Sea Dragon will hit hard~

Speed Tweak-Basher, Dragon Helm, Armour of Legend/Rainbow Dress, Dancer's Shoes, Dancer's Ring w/th LoD stat up/down items

Perks - Insanely fast - multi turns Kongols like no tomorrow, the HP boosting Dragon Helm might save her from being OHKO fodder in some cases, Rainbow Dress provides a nice boost to second game best magic defence and some status immunities (stun, poison, arm blocking - dunno where Meru might run across the third though >_>) Perky Step would be the addition of choice here with the Basher.  The addition mods,  with the enhanced game best speed and her strongest attack boosting weapon should allow her to apply some decent physical pressure.

I'm not sure which would be best~

Thoughts?

[Ultradude]

If you're worried about taking hits, then giving him an STAB move that *forces* him to take hits via negative priority (and which isn't reliable damage anyways) certainly isn't the right answer!

That was more in regards to Close Combat and it's defense dropping.

[Magic Fanatic]

Joachim.  Standard weapon and armor.

Accessory:
Huge Jug
Spikes
Priest Earrings

Crests:
Valefor (Cure All, Heal)
Aim (Rage, Shield, Gale)
Forneus (Surge, Barrier, Mirage, Hail Breeze)
Agares (Earth Edge, Rock Rot, Rock Storm)
Gremory (Barrier, Bright Light)

Joachim starts with 40 SP.  Spikes lowers his SP by 1 for every hit he takes, but for every hit he takes, he assumes automatic Resist Defense (by as far as I know, this makes him take 50% or less damage, even from ITD, and immune to status).

Huge Jug lowers his SP consumption by half from ANY source, letting him last FAR longer.

Priest Earrings let him do more with his spells/specials with 20% more MP.  If he really doesn't need the 20% MP in this, he can always opt for Ashra's Earrings for 20% more HP, or just the Dark Angel for 8 more SP.



This...  MIGHT be way overpowered, though.   If it is, I'll just scrap it.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Sir Donald: GFs are...  huh.  A well-boosted GF with good compatibility can kinda keep up with attacks and Tripled Magic at endgame, so normally I wouldn't worry, except that the DL seems to use averages based on unjunctioned characters, in which case a boosted-GF will be inflicting extremely godly damage.  Zell probably would just smash things with overkill Leviathans.

--
Anyway, here's my proposal for an FF8 character...  Quistis with 100 Full-Lifes junctioned to HP and 4 Status Defense junctions to use as she chooses.  For reference, it seems that 100 Full-Lifes would grant 4800 extra HP, so Quistis would have ~2.2 PCHP and limit at ~.77 PCHP using the stat topic unjunctioned averages.  Ruins stallers, at least.  (If this is thought too weak, she can get an Elemental Defense junction as well, or to really make her scary give her the Recover Command.  With that she blows out those with limited resources.)

Actually, one the other ideas I had was Quistis with Aura Spells (Unjunctioned), so that she'd be able to access her Blue Magic Limits from the get-go.

Then again, there is this slight nag I have about allowing Commands, Abilities, and Junctions without assigning a GF which, in-game, sort of makes it all possible...  Then again Faux-GFs can be constructed...

But your idea is better from the "Making FF8 PCs into Normal PCs from non-customizable games" standpoint.    The only thing that might be needed to complete the process would be to allow her to cast Aura, so that I would think of as the first upgrade, before going into stuff like Elemental Defense and extra commands.  (I'm assuming it would be better for Quistis to cast Blue Magic for Status instead of casting her Spell Stock.) 


Incidentally, my other idea would've been to have Rinoa with the 1st 4 GFs with 100 Curagas junctioned to HP (+2200 HP), the ability to choose 3 of GF, Doom, Mad Rush, and Treatment, and the ability to junction 2 Elemental Defenses out of Thunderga, Firaga, and Blizzardga.  No Magic Command, but she would have access to the attack spells via Angel Wing. 

FF3DS Bartz Luneth: At the JL listed in the stat topic for each class, no Onion Knight.  But needs to pick one job per fight, natch.  Lots of versatility, compromised by the fact that his best forms are only Heavies.  Still, Warrior for times he wants to blitz and Sage for times he wants to stall / status has some appeal, if nothing else.

An disturbing interesting variation to duelists who can form-swap.  The ability to choose among that many forms could be a game-breaker in its own right.   Of course, restricting each form to the Stat Topic equipment as well (and Geomancer to Plains) would help with some of the confusion...

Aeonless Yuna: Hey, it's a tweak, all right.

Actually, she'd be perfect for Team DL Defense  (The old Twink League had Tweaked characters go up against other Tweaked characters and DL-Natural Godlikes, IIRC.  Not sure if it was 6-Person Pools leading to an Eliminations Tourney or Straight-up Single Elim.)

[Laggy]

Emelia (Saga Frontier), built as a gunner, w/ mastered Rune magic.

Speed plus initiative damage if she wants it (good damage at that). Rune magic gives her good buffs (Soul is solid, Victory can help), regen (Vitality), and cheese potential (Hide - combined with Vitality is essentially slow but full healing).

[Taishyr]

Okay. I'm gonna run down the suggestions as I see them. Feel -free- to argue with me on these; I have subjective viewpoints, naturally, and thus I can easily miss things.

(NOTE: If you nommed a Pokemon, I may not add it to the list at first. This is primarily because I don't want a Pokemon rush, honestly - I confess no deeper reason. This being said, I'm also likely to make sure at least one gets in. *shrug* Definitely enough interest in them to ensure that.)

Neph: I... gutcheck that it's not enough for Sasarai? Is there any other change that could be done for Sasarai? I like the idea of having him in, but. (Main reason: I think a fair few people already allow partial Yellow Scarves under the accessory splitting rule; that doesn't seem to be enough push for her as is.)

super: Gut says no on Lich Warren? IIRC you said he was invincible to non-Holy/non-elemental magics, which... would be a rather brutal spoiler even in Godlike. Dias with two Atlas Rings is tentatively added, however. How's that improve his damage? I'd imagine near-OHKO or OHKO, but otherwise his main thing is elemental spoiling and decent defenses? Should still be good enough for the border.

Meeple: FF4DS Cecil tentatively added. I'll be sure to specify form; might hurt vote totals for him, but ah well. Also going to add Gogo w/ Skills. And on Tifa, what's that make her damage compared to the usual damage average? Will probably add her, but.

Djinn: Eyeballing her, seems like the SP's a massive restriction on her; agreeing with your Low Heavy gutcheck. Will keep her in mind, though.

Snowfire: Yulie accepted. Give me a bit to think on Lilka, I'm open to arguments but I'm actually gutchecking that as a semi-decent Godlike build for her, since she's getting these boosts where no one else will.

Yoshiken: See Meeple. This being said, the group might be Low Godlike enough that, say, a slight Rayquaza tweak might work. Any suggestions, Yoshiken/Meeple/UltraDude/hinode?

Ultradude/hinode: Would the revised comments re: Heracross be able to survive in this? Also, what game set would he need to be from?

OK: Accepted, although I seriously don't remember any equips that could negate weaknesses... Probably a Tai memory issue here, though. Your weaknesses listed are why she'd be on the border, yeah.

Sir Donald: No clue on Blissey; would want to hear commentary from the rest of the Pokemon group. Zell, SnowFire raises my sad objection to; perhaps give him another ability in place of said GF command?

dude789: Gonna run the DQ5 one by someone who knows better than I on that, as well as the Pokemon one - but doesn't Trace's change end at the end of battle? Mmm.

SnowFire: Quistis may be accepted; I may reserve her if the Zell build becomes more viable for a prospective second season. For Luneth, tenative approval? Will be interesting to see how an option master does here. Unsure on FE here, your Ike's probably the best option. Will need to think. Aeonless Yuna... I vote on her, and she does -just fine- in Godlike, so. >_>  Perhaps you and Sir Donald can hash out a few FF8 tweaks?

ClearTranquil: Mmmm. My memory of LoD's bad, I'll have to poke chat. Gut says give her something to compensate for her physical defense, first, but.

MagicFanatic: Let... me think on that. He'd be insane spoilerbait, but far more likely to -be- spoiled than, say, the Lich build; gut says people from multi-hit systems are more common than people with competent Holy damage. This being said not sure how many multi-hit people we'll even have in.

Laggy: Looking over the topic... mmm, it should work? Added, at least. We'll get to see where it takes her, and any further commentary from everyone would be welcome.

...phew, now my head's spinning again. Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions, and keep on tweaking!

[superaielman]

Lich Saradin? Immunes everything but NE magic and holy. Holy damage makes him explode quite literally.

[Meeplelard]

Would the old Twink Agrias set up with MP Switch combo be H/G if we restricted her to DL Legal equips only?  This makes her stuck with that shoddy speed, which means the combo is that much less effective, still bites to status whores to some degree, and Multi Hitters eat right through it.  IIRC, the Twink League Agrias was given Excalibur, at very least, which makes her game that much better.

An FF12 PC with like all options barring Espers!  No, this isn't quite as broken as it sounds, cause they're basically average at everything, and FF12 status isn't that particularly accurate.  furthermore, they spend an eternity getting their game going.  Its basically a PC with Full Healing, some buffs, and some mild status, and not much else.  Naturally, their equips would be restricted to storebought stuff, which lacks much in the way of broken, IIRC?  Oh yeah, of course no items, for all that FF12 items suck anyway <_<;
Might be forgetting something, but...yeah, an FF12 Full Liscence Board PC is hardly on par with, say, Full Sphere Grid PCs <.<

[Ultradude]

The second Heracross... with max EVs for speed and attack, has 137 speed and deals about 120% damage with Close Combat or Megahorn while burned. Doesn't even 2HKO with Aerial Ace, so yeah... the other guy needs to be pretty frail, and spoil his other moves through evasion. Burn Orb takes a turn to activate, so Protect probably goes in there. Averagish durabilities, with that speed means Hera might get a Swords Dance off... at which point Heracross is blowing everything to bits. As an added bonus, Heracross can potentially OHKO some really frail people (healers, mages) on its first turn. So, Protect, Close Combat (he's going for the OHKO now that I think about it), Aerial Ace, Swords Dance.

The weak points, are slightly below average pdur according to stat topic, and being weak to fire and possibly wind (4X!) with only slightly above average mdur. Also, if you don't see PKMN status as blocking other status, even people slower than him only need to survive to get a turn to take him out (durability, evasion, buffs), and those faster just pick him off right away.

[Yoshiken]

Okay, I'm keeping in mind that we'll only have one, maybe two Pokemon at the most. I'm thinking the best approach is just to have some suggestions until we find one that we all agree on, though.
With the Heracross, that still has the problem of being killed by a light breeze - 4x weakness to Wind is never fun. I'm thinking that with the status problem mixed in would be its downfall, although either one can be solved through berries - but not both, and that gets rid of the Flame Orb.

Prime example of a painfully powerful Pokemon (alliteration fun!) is Machamp w/No Guard. Give it Dynamicpunch for STAB-ed 150-base-power guaranteed-confusion fun. Throw in Stone Edge for those aerial types, Bulk Up for buffs, some elemental punch (instinct says Thunder, since water types from any RPG seem to be defensive), and then throw on a Muscle Belt for added power to all attacks. Or, if the strength is already good enough, a Lum Berry to ensure it can't be screwed over by status on turn 1. 'Course, if it can't kill in one turn, it loses to status almost instantly, and it's not the fastest thing ever (although giving it EV-training for optimum speed could slightly balance this.)

[Nephrite]

Neph: I... gutcheck that it's not enough for Sasarai? Is there any other change that could be done for Sasarai? I like the idea of having him in, but. (Main reason: I think a fair few people already allow partial Yellow Scarves under the accessory splitting rule; that doesn't seem to be enough push for her as is.)

Gale Rune as well might help, it's a 1.5x speed increase. In this case, of course, I meant Yellow Scarf as complete status immunity, for what it's worth.

[Ultradude]

Okay, I'm keeping in mind that we'll only have one, maybe two Pokemon at the most. I'm thinking the best approach is just to have some suggestions until we find one that we all agree on, though.
With the Heracross, that still has the problem of being killed by a light breeze - 4x weakness to Wind is never fun. I'm thinking that with the status problem mixed in would be its downfall, although either one can be solved through berries - but not both, and that gets rid of the Flame Orb.

Prime example of a painfully powerful Pokemon (alliteration fun!) is Machamp w/No Guard. Give it Dynamicpunch for STAB-ed 150-base-power guaranteed-confusion fun. Throw in Stone Edge for those aerial types, Bulk Up for buffs, some elemental punch (instinct says Thunder, since water types from any RPG seem to be defensive), and then throw on a Muscle Belt for added power to all attacks. Or, if the strength is already good enough, a Lum Berry to ensure it can't be screwed over by status on turn 1. 'Course, if it can't kill in one turn, it loses to status almost instantly, and it's not the fastest thing ever (although giving it EV-training for optimum speed could slightly balance this.)

Thing is, Heracross is OHKOing a lot of those wind users (not super common element, fire is more relevant weakness) and status users before they get a turn. They have to survive or evade that giant hit, and if they're too slow Heracross might double too. Machamp can get above average speed - 107 with max EVs, 117 with Jolly nature. This is probably more useful than Adamant, since he'd have a solid 2HKO either way. Going for damage, he could use a Choice Band, so he narrowly OHKOs with perfect accuracy and adds confusion off of above average speed... that sounds pretty fun. Has a wind weakness like Heracross, if not as huge, and doesn't have to worry about fire. Much easier to outspeed, but No Guard mocks guys like Arnaud. EVs and a Choice Band probably bring him up a division?

[Yoshiken]

Hmm. I'd still say Lum Berry will probably serve him better, if only to fend off Turn 1 status. Judging from the Speed value you gave (having not checked the stat topics), Pokemon are Lv 50 for this. In that case, Machamp can have the 117 Speed and still have 182 Attack. I'm thinking damage isn't gonna be Machamp's problem, which is why I'm still inclined to go with the Lum Berry.
What do others think~?

[Tonfa]

Hatbot's official, Taishyr-approved entry approaches. Not for the faint of heart.

Final Fantasy 7
Vincent:
HP: 4595
MP: 537

Sniper CR (900 damage)

Master Magic=Magic Counterx2

Imperial Guard

Master Magic=Magic Counterx3

Touph Ring

Vincent can cast any one Master Magic spell on his own turn, and counters with five of them in succession whenever he takes damage.
Each counter is a random one out of 54 possibilities. Beneficial spells are targeted to Vincent himself.

1 - Cure, 5MP - heals 710 HP
2 - Cure2, 24MP - heals 1370 HP
3 - Cure3, 64MP - heals 3460 HP
4 - Poisona, 3MP - cures Poison
5 - Esuna, 15MP - cures status changes (not Slow)
6 - Resist, 120MP - prevents *any* status changes
7 - Life, 34MP - revival in a duel
8 - Life2, 100MP - revival in a duel
9 - Regen, 30MP - regen
10 - Fire, 4MP - 300 fire damage
11 - Fire2, 22MP - 750 fire damage
12 - Fire3, 52MP - 2400 fire damage
13 - Ice, 4MP - 300 ice damage
14 - Ice2, 22MP - 750 ice damage
15 - Ice3, 52MP - 2400 ice damage
16 - Bolt, 4MP - 300 lightning damage
17 - Bolt2, 22MP - 750 lightning damage
18 - Bolt3, 52MP - 2400 lightning damage
19 - Quake, 6MP - 410 earth damage
20 - Quake2, 28MP - 900 earth damage
21 - Quake3, 68MP - 2625 earth damage
22 - Bio, 8MP - 375 poison damage, 55% poison
23 - Bio2, 36MP - 790 poison damage, 55% poison
24 - Bio3, 80MP - 2550 poison damage, 85% poison
25 - Demi, 14MP - 25% cHP gravity damage, 75% accuracy
26 - Demi2, 33MP - 50% cHP gravity damage, 75% accuracy
27 - Demi3, 48MP - 75% cHP gravity damage, 75% accuracy
28 - Sleepel, 8MP - 85% sleep
29 - Confu, 18MP - 70% confusion
30 - Silence, 24MP - 70% silence
31 - Mini, 10MP - 85% mini
32 - Toad, 14MP - 85% frog
33 - Berserk, 28MP - 95% berserk
34 - Haste, 18MP - haste
35 - Slow, 20MP - 120% slow
36 - Stop, 34MP - 70% stop
37 - Barrier, 16MP - protect
38 - MBarrier, 24MP - shell
39 - Reflect, 30MP - reflects next 4 spells
40 - DeBarrier, 12MP - removes protect/shell/reflect/shield
41 - DeSpell, 20MP - removes positive statuses+slow/stop
42 - Death, 30MP - 50% ID
43 - Escape, 16MP - IN A DUEL!
44 - Remove, 99MP - Perfect ID, does not give gil/items
45 - Comet, 70MP - 3000 damage
46 - Comet2, 110MP - 4x1050(4200) damage
47 - Freeze, 82MP - 3560 ice damage, 80% stop
48 - Break, 86MP - 3750 earth damage, 40% petrify
49 - Tornado, 90MP - 3940 wind damage, 40% confusion
50 - Flare, 100MP - 4315 fire damage
51 - Wall, 58MP - protect+shell
52 - FullCure, 99MP - fullheal
53 - Shield, 180MP - absorbs physicals and elemental damage for a few rounds
54 - Ultima, 130MP - 3940 damage

[Taishyr]

And here we have the FINAL BOSS, ladies and gentlemen. I promised I wouldn't hurt Tonfa, so I won't.

I'll leave that to the rest of you. ^_^

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

... what have you done.

[hinode]

Re:Heracross, turn 1 Protect will activate the Flame Orb while Hera's untouchable and it's status immune from there on out. I don't really see a use for Lum here.

[Yoshiken]

Lum was for the Machamp, not the Heracross. That said, I did forget about the Flame Orb thing when talking about Hera earlier. Wind and Fire are still major problems, especially since it won't take much Wind to kill it (4x), so I'm thinking Lum!Machamp would beat Heracross still. It's close, though.

[hinode]

I'm not really sold on the Machamp. Dynamicpunch is a lot less useful in a DL setting where confuse blocking equips are reasonably common, and No Guard's downside is pretty significant - Machamp is toast against even the crappiest of ID moves for instance. Swords Dance and Flame Orb/Guts are much more effective damage buffs than Bulk Up as well, considering you have no healing here.

In addition, you need to design movesets with a DL mindset, not a Pokemon mindset. Fighting is not an element in the vast majority of the game and thus won't be resisted, and there probably won't be a single "aerial type" in this tournament that resists fighting or is weak to Stone Edge. For that matter, any attempt at hitting elemental weaknesses is pretty much going to be a waste of time - even the Persona characters are going to have resistance armors that null their weakpoints.

[Yoshiken]

Ack, I knew there was something I was doing wrong here. I was thinking from attack-basis, not defence, hence the talk of hitting weaknesses/resistances. Whoops. ^^'

...Okay, I've spent the last 20 minutes thinking, and I've still got nothing. I had some Togekiss set that would still be screwed over by T1 status or Ice or Lightning. >_>
That Heracross still doesn't look like H/G to me... I'm thinking, for Pokemon, it's gonna have to be a (pseudo-)legendary in order to make it H/G. >__<

[TranceHime]

...Okay, I've spent the last 20 minutes thinking, and I've still got nothing. I had some Togekiss set that would still be screwed over by T1 status or Ice or Lightning. >_>
That Heracross still doesn't look like H/G to me... I'm thinking, for Pokemon, it's gonna have to be a (pseudo-)legendary in order to make it H/G. >__<

It's not necessarily that it has to be a "(pseudo-)legendary" to make it into H/G, it's just some Pokemon just... REALLY need drastic changes in order to make that push. A debated subject earlier was Blastoise, who's not even that bad in the first place, but to really make him a performer in H/G you need to do some serious adjustments, and another contested subject was Pikachu, and I think it can be agreed that Light Ball Pika needs to be in the Lv90~100 range to be even close to competent in H/G (albeit as a freaking glass cannon) and... We all know how that goes...

[Clear Tranquil]

... what have you done.

Tai: *nods* Yeah I wasn't wanting to make her too broke though. A Legend Casque/Armour of Legend combo would do that. The Power Down item increases the damage the enemy takes and decreases the damage they do both and the Power Up increases the damage Meru does and decreases the damage she takes ... I could ask for a Armour of Legend also w/o the Legend Casque but I'm concerned that might be a bit OTP with those items. I'll get back to you on it =D

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

... what have you done.

Tai: *nods* Yeah I wasn't wanting to make her too broke though. A Legend Casque/Armour of Legend combo would do that. The Power Down item increases the damage the enemy takes and decreases the damage they do both and the Power Up increases the damage Meru does and decreases the damage she takes ... I could ask for a Armour of Legend also w/o the Legend Casque but I'm concerned that might be a bit OTP with those items. I'll get back to you on it =D

I actually meant that to Tonfa's hellspawn.

[Clear Tranquil]

Arr. I thought you were talking to Tai >_>