Rate this game in the DL: S3 and FE7

[Dark Holy Elf]

That's the thing - three characters per season isn't a flood.

At the time, FE7 made up about 5% of the roster. A bit less? 40~ duellers out of the 800-900 we had ranked. So logically it should get a little under 5% of the spots each season. A bit under 5% of 64... is 3.

Put another way, if every FE dueller got in just as often as the other, and three got in a season, they'd each get in... once every 13 seasons. Pretty normal.

You can argue larger drawing casts deserve a lower percentage, which is fair enough. You can similarly argue that newer games deserve a higher percentage. (Both certainly happen, anyway, and their combination nicely explains FE7's DL history.) But if they get their expected percentage they aren't flooding. Flooding is what SH3 did when it got five people in at once, not when a big game like FE7 gets OMG THREE, no matter how many seasons in a row it happened.

[Grefter]

At how many months does it stop counting as a new game and just count as tiring then?  If 5% is its expected and acceptable ratio for the time why does it see a drop off in noms after that and stay around that level pretty consistently from then?

6 seasons and long enough for the sequel to come out is a long time to play the It Is New card.

None of which stops it being overexposed as a game.

[Dark Holy Elf]

If 5% is its expected and acceptable ratio for the time why does it see a drop off in noms after that and stay around that level pretty consistently from then?

Because it's no longer a new game, and is a large-cast game, which tend to be below their expected value somewhat.

[Meeplelard]

IIRC, one of the big beefs about the FE Flood?

It'd always be an FEer in Middle and they'd ALWAYS make it to the finals, so it got annoying that for like...3? seasons in a row, it was "FE vs. Someone else" for Middle.  Now, granted, Lyn was to be expected; everyone was pushing for that that season and wanted her out of Middle cause she damn well didn't deserve to be there, but the following seasons were a bit irksome.  It kind of reminds me of how Phantasy Star 4 for a while was doing something similar? Maybe I'm misremembering.

The point is, while FEs may not have actually been getting in all that much barring a few seasons, they kept constantly going far, so it felt like they were always there.  Regardless, the season Lyn was in, wasn't there like 6 FErs in at once?  I know Balk that season fought like 3 (and they all had Green Hair!), and we even had Eliwood vs. Raven as a match.  There were like 5 in Middle alone that season, for crying outloud.  That season was an FE Flood, though to its credit, it had just been ranked, so its to be expected (only been ranked for one season before that and only Hector was in, IIRC?)

Either way, the game's presence in the DL was definitely felt for a while.  It'd probably have been less hateful if there wasn't a constant "FE Middle gets to the finals!" thing which was getting old and kind of stale.

[Luther Lansfeld]

If 5% is its expected and acceptable ratio for the time why does it see a drop off in noms after that and stay around that level pretty consistently from then?

Because it's no longer a new game, and is a large-cast game, which tend to be below their expected value somewhat.

Also because people stopped nomming them because everyone bitched about it so much, and plus 40 people isn't 5% anymore after like 15 games have been ranked after it. Of course the trying to not nom them didn't actually make people stop bitching since there are people complaining about it three years later, so maybe the effort was wasted. >_>

Six seasons is 36 weeks which is just shy of nine months like I said.

It averaged three or so characters for something like eight or nine seasons in a row? It was definitely a flood at the time and the overall FE flood didn't really die down till after the major players in FE8 got in.

Was what my six seasons as opposed to nine seasons comment was directed at. Which is about nine months. I'm not really arguing that there wasn't a flood at its ranking, but that happens with a lot of games, but it doesn't last as long more due to sheer cast size than anything else. Not because people were nomming the characters over and over, because that's simply not what happened. The reason that so many people were ranked is because a lot of the characters are on the same level of personal popularity and it's hard to draw a line since a lot of the characters are fairly even with screentime, which means that a lot of people are going to nom different characters. Obviously this ranking system made people angry, which is why it was changed. Evolution of ranking habits is key, and the fact that FE8's ranking was... fairly close to half of FE7's shows that.

[Cmdr_King]

Suikoden 3

Favorite dueller: Chris
Least favorite dueller: Gau I think?  He's probably the most mind-numbingly average in ever relevant aspect.  Despite a unique accessory...

Strongest dueller: Chris
Weakest dueller: Connie

Favorite moment in the DL with this game: I rarely answer this one.
Least favorite moment in the DL with this game: yeah.

A character you'd like to see added to the game: Ruby!  A strange, strange omision.
A character you wouldn't have ranked from this game: None.  The overwhelming majority deserve to be in as I see it, to the point that the remainder would just be random to not include.

Any other notes/thoughts about the game? Nope.

Fire Emblem 7

Favorite dueller: Lyn
Least favorite dueller: Marcus I think?

Strongest dueller: Athos
Weakest dueller: Renault I'm pretty sure.

Favorite moment in the DL with this game: Nothing stands out.
Least favorite moment in the DL with this game: ... nah, nothin'.

A character you'd like to see added to the game: Can't think of anyone.
A character you wouldn't have ranked from this game: There might've been someone, but I don't remember who now.


Any other notes/thoughts about the game? No.

[Dunefar]

Suikoden 3

Favorite dueller: Chris. She's a fun Godlike without being too uber. Honorable mentions go to Geddoe.
Least favorite dueller: Uuuh. Rody?

Strongest dueller: Chris.
Weakest dueller: Rody? Those or a Suikodog.

Favorite moment in the DL with this game: Pretty much whenever Chris or Geddoe get in. I'm fond of both of them winning.
Least favorite moment in the DL with this game: None. Despite it's size Suiko 3 rarely irks me.

A character you'd like to see added to the game: None. It's done as is.
A character you wouldn't have ranked from this game: I think some of the filler crap that doesn't have a following could be axed. This excludes the Suikodogs, who have enough fans to make worthwhile punies.

Any other notes/thoughts about the game?

I'd say trim the cast but I suspect it'll be a firefight. Yellow scarves are shiny.

Fire Emblem 7

Favorite dueller: Lyn? I'm not a fan but she's okay.
Least favorite dueller: Mmmm. Most of the rest of 'em?

Strongest dueller: Athos.
Weakest dueller: Oh god, pick a light.

Favorite moment in the DL with this game: Lyn's Middle run. She was underranked; thanks Niu.
Least favorite moment in the DL with this game: Most of the floods and runs it had. Like everything FE in that era, it over saturated to the point of insanity.

A character you'd like to see added to the game: None. You can argue for the dragon if you want, though.
A character you wouldn't have ranked from this game: Probably a few of the scrubs.

Any other notes/thoughts about the game? I'm not a fan of it, though in the DL it's mellowed into a vaguely hostile apathy. It doesn't help that it blurs into FE8, since the characters are often near carbon copies between games and blah blah blah blah FE sucks. I'm sure you don't want me to go into it here, though, so I'll shut up.

[Grefter]

Ahhh fair then Ciato

Least favorite moment in the DL with this game: HEY GUYS LETS SIT DOWN AND DISCUSS THE INDEPTH MECHANICS OF THIS GAME FOR 168 HOURS WITHOUT SLEEPING.  OMG NOW RANK EVERYTHING AND NOM EVERY CHARACTER IN IT LIKE FOR 9 MONTHS STRAIGHT!

That was the section I was thinking you were talking about.

If FE7 specifically changed ranking habits then why do the people that loved the game and did the rankings brush it off as not a flood, nothing went wrong here, it is business as usual, everything is fine, do not look at the man behind the curtain, move along, keep moving, selected - persuadatron, Cerebrus IFF *Civilians get mowed down by automated turret defenses*

Also obviously with the hard mode PCs statement I should have known better from that thanks to having an encyclopedic knowledge of the game after it being HORRIBLY OVER EXPOSED FOR MONTHS.  Hector mode only PCs, which is like completely and totally different and a million times more acceptable because everyone replays FE7 like 9 times especially at the draw of FE plot from the same character's perspective with the former male supporting lead becoming the lead  and the former lead becoming the supporting lead.  Like wow, fucking intense.

[Shale]

If you ask me, this can all be traced to the fact that every match with an FE character about it boils down to the same mechanics issues with different numbers involved.

[OblivionKnight]

True.  It does boil down to basically character with +1 additional skill wins a match the exact same character with less -1 skill doesn't.  That's just kind of the nature of the series, though.  Not saying that isn't somewhat annoying and boring (lol 1% chance to ctr ownz j0!), but at least there's not much else to annoy, gameplay-wise (people call out equipment whorage, status, etc. for annoying stuff - at least FE just has counters and criticals!).

I guess one of the major things I like about rooting for characters are the characters themselves, and...I can see where some hate for FE can come from there.  I mean, some of them don't really have much going for them (Dorcas, etc.) as characters, so...they're just statistics.   

[Twilkitri]

Also obviously with the hard mode PCs statement I should have known better from that thanks to having an encyclopedic knowledge of the game after it being HORRIBLY OVER EXPOSED FOR MONTHS.  Hector mode only PCs, which is like completely and totally different and a million times more acceptable because everyone replays FE7 like 9 times [...].

I can only assume that was replying to me, and in that case I can only say that I had assumed that you were referring to Hector mode PCs when you said replay-only PCs. It is not something that especially matters at all in any case.

[Grefter]

I am sure I did say hard mode only PCs somewhere and that is in fact not in the game (right?).  Edit - And I blame the hard mode thing originally because of HHM.

Hector mode only PCs are still bad ranks.  Replay mode only things are massive DNR bait under any and all circumstances in any other game we have ever looked at.   (Not really an edit but a fact chec:I was thinking of Harken hype for this specifically, apparently he is not Hector mode only either, just a massive fail split path, which again is DNR bait and got hype.)

[Meeplelard]

Harken wasn't in the initial ranking phase for the Split Path reason, same as Karel and Geitz.  Wallace wasn't ranked cause of the whole "yes, he's forced in Lyn mode, but his worth there is so much different than his worth if you get him later!"  Not to mention he changes dramatically if you play Lyn Hard (which is the same as Lyn Normal, just no tutorial, so its not quite the same as Eliwood/Hector Hard which are actual changes) since he suddenly gains more levels to play with (no forced level 12 Promotion or whatever it was.)

Farina wasn't ranked cause of the "Hector Mode" only thing.  Karla is the most obscure PC in the game, requiring not only Hector mode, IIRC, but also to raise Bartre to a specific level.

I think that covers all the rankable PCs that didn't get ranked (as in, Nilisinian go without saying.)    After FE7 proved it was a strong rank in the DL, it went up again with the FWs.  They got shot down, granted, cause people really didn't want to just see "More characters with different stats who bring nothing new to the DL." (Frankly, its true, unless you allow Initial Equips, then at least Harken brings a Brave Sword!)

In...the end, FE7 ended up basically showing "Rank all PCs just cause you can!" even if its a strong ranking isn't always the best idea.  The way we handled FE8, barring some odd choices (Why Garcia and not Ross for example.)

In any event, the point is, those specific PCs you mentioned were not innitially hyped for ranking until after FE7 proved that it had a vote draw strong enough to possibly overcome that, and even then, the PCs got shot down in the second stage.

[Grefter]

The fact that they got hype at all and were considered still shows something at all Meeple, which is my entire point.  The only things we didn't rank were split path replay only characters in a cast that lacks much diversity or character at all and it went to ranking at least 3 times, maybe even 4.  Whiiiiiiiiiiiiiich all points to the game being completely and totally overexposed.

[BaconForTheSoul]

WTF at people choosing a favorite dueller or least favorite dueller based on in game like?!?

Suikoden 3
Favorite dueller:  Hugo.  Dumb character, but a fun dueller.
Least favorite dueller:  Most of light

Strongest dueller: Chris, shows how weak of a cast this is.
Weakest dueller:  Dogs

Favorite moment in the DL with this game: Shrugs.
Least favorite moment in the DL with this game: Chris beating Terra.  Geddoe beating Nina.  Chris won because people instantly go with "Chris vs Mage GG!!!"  Geddoe won because people were sick of Nina.  Both weak.

A character you'd like to see added to the game: It's fine
A character you wouldn't have ranked from this game:  About 10 of the Lights that I don't even remember.

Any other notes/thoughts about the game?  A lot of cannon fodder like all the Suikos I've played.  Boring characters/duellers flooding light is meh, but it's not horrible offensive.

Fire Emblem 7

Favorite dueller:  Athos.  One of the few duellers with real options.  (Again, the character himself is dumb.)  Also Oswin, because his tanking is just ridiculously funny.  90% of middle melee attacks doing 0 to him is pure win.
Least favorite dueller:  Nergal or Renault

Strongest dueller:  Athos
Weakest dueller:  Renault

Favorite moment in the DL with this game:  Lyn obviously
Least favorite moment in the DL with this game:  Nino getting raped on draws over and over

A character you'd like to see added to the game: 
A character you wouldn't have ranked from this game:  Anyone that you can't get on the initial playthrough.  Hector Mode/Hard mode/etc.  Forcing people to replay a game is kinda like forcing aftergame shit on people in terms of voting.


Any other notes/thoughts about the game?  Mighta have a few too many people ranked.  The flood wasn't that offensive to me, probably because I wasn't in the chat for all the debates about it.  Like Elf said though, they should have 3 or so a season (at that period in time.)  I guess the fact that they kept popping up in the same division was a bit annoying, but oh well.

---

FF4 and CT works I guess.

[Twilkitri]

Forcing people to replay a game is kinda like forcing aftergame shit on people in terms of voting.

To be frank, I personally believe that if you've seen a handful of skillless FE characters (potentially not even that much, potentially not even worrying about whether they're skillless or not), you can generally vote on the whole lot of 'em regardless of if you've seen each individual character or not provided you have access to the numbers.

That being said, even if all the split-path etc FE7 characters were ranked, of which there's 4 according to memory, there is nothing forcing you to replay the game, and why would you even want to for only 4 characters if you didn't like it. You are no more forced to replay than you are to play it in the first place. Arguably it's worse having to play it in the first place because there are so many more characters that 'require' you to play it.

Also Star Ocean 2 'requires' a replay and it's probably longer than FE7 >_> *is smited for commiting some fallacy that he doesn't know the name of*

[BaconForTheSoul]

Forcing people to replay a game is kinda like forcing aftergame shit on people in terms of voting.

To be frank, I personally believe that if you've seen a handful of skillless FE characters (potentially not even that much, potentially not even worrying about whether they're skillless or not), you can generally vote on the whole lot of 'em regardless of if you've seen each individual character or not provided you have access to the numbers.

That being said, even if all the split-path etc FE7 characters were ranked, of which there's 4 according to memory, there is nothing forcing you to replay the game, and why would you even want to for only 4 characters if you didn't like it. You are no more forced to replay than you are to play it in the first place. Arguably it's worse having to play it in the first place because there are so many more characters that 'require' you to play it.

Also Star Ocean 2 'requires' a replay and it's probably longer than FE7 >_> *is smited for commiting some fallacy that he doesn't know the name of*

Eh, if you don't play a game you don't vote on it.  You won't know if you like a game until you play it (barring it being identical to a previous one in the series, etc.)  Hence, even if you hate a game, you can generally vote on it.  See FF8 for a lot of people.

That's also why most everyone takes end game equips/skills for people.  Sure, Zidane can do 9999 damage if he wants, but in a normal playthrough it's ridiculous to assume it'll happen.  If we don't even take post game equipment for people, why should post game characters be ranked?  Hell, I replayed FE7 on hardmode for everyone and still didn't get some of the obscure characters, although that's getting fairly off topic, which seems to be happening a lot with this thread.

Anywho, that was my thought on who doesn't deserve to be ranked.  I agree that with FE it doesn't matter if you got them or not, the fighting is the same and easy to figure out thanks to stat topic, but ranking Karla or someone like that would be the same as ranking a fucking slime.  We all know what it/he/she does, but that doesn't mean we give a shit about it!  In general postgame characters are the ones people give less of a shit about due to obscurity, lack of plot value, etc.  I think.

[IhatethisCPU]

Suikoden 3

Favorite dueller: Ayame.
Least favorite dueller: Roland. Dull, dull, dull.

Strongest dueller: Chris. Oddly, I used her as my healer. Apparently that was a bad idea.
Weakest dueller: One of the Suikodogs... Kosanji. Futch as an honourable mention.

Favorite moment in the DL with this game: >_> Sarah losing 25 seasons ago, and never being seen again, Joe/Nash champing Middle.
Least favorite moment in the DL with this game: Joe losing to Feena.

A character you'd like to see added to the game: We're pretty much fine.
A character you wouldn't have ranked from this game: You lot ditched Wyatt/Jimba and Guillaume some time ago, so all is well.

Any other notes/thoughts about the game? Dull duelling cast, some decent in-game characters, though.


FE7
...I'll get back to you lot. >_>'

[alanna82]

Suikoden 3

Favorite dueller: LUC
Least favorite dueller: any non dog, non Shabon light

Strongest dueller: Chris
Weakest dueller: pick a dog

Favorite moment in the DL with this game: Luc beating Menardi
Least favorite moment in the DL with this game: Shabon losing to Jane

A character you'd like to see added to the game: none, well I liked when Jimba was ranked but its not happening again.
A character you wouldn't have ranked from this game: all dogs other than Koroku, (I had the wrong dogs name grr.)

Any other notes/thoughts about the game? Best game ever!

Fire Emblem 7

Favorite dueller: Athos, has variety
Least favorite dueller: lights, that arnt Serra, Marcus or Isadora

Strongest dueller: Athos or Lyn
Weakest dueller: Isadora

Favorite moment in the DL with this game: cant think of one in particular
Least favorite moment in the DL with this game: FE FLOOD

A character you'd like to see added to the game: Wallace and Farina *runs*
A character you wouldn't have ranked from this game: none


Any other notes/thoughts about the game?