Season 52, Week 3

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, I've never seen Citan's Hyper DBs, but it doesn't matter - there's a clear melee portion to the attack (the leadup) which is enough to trigger a counter.

[Excal]

Heck, it's not even like he can just safely sit back and build up his stock guage.  He needs to make the tapping attack in order to get the rest built up (Though it will make him oddly awesome against SRW enemies with HP Regen L)

[James_xeno]

Given how she still 3HKOs handily with Sieglinde, though, that doesn't matter much. He has to heal every other time he attacks. Now suddenly seeing him getting countered (and honestly, the game doesn't give you evidence why you -shouldn't- from what I remember) is very relevant.

Which guarantees she goes last, and gets doubled with Senkei. (plus that crit goes down to about 10%) And she still does less than 40% damage to him! His healing (even without a LS) is around 47% of max HP.

If he doubles, she gets maybe 4 attacks (with counters) off before she's KO'd, and 5-6 if you don't let him double. He wins either way.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Given how she still 3HKOs handily with Sieglinde, though, that doesn't matter much. He has to heal every other time he attacks. Now suddenly seeing him getting countered (and honestly, the game doesn't give you evidence why you -shouldn't- from what I remember) is very relevant.

Which guarantees she goes last, and gets doubled with Senkei. (plus that crit goes down to about 10%) And she still does less than 40% damage to him! His healing (even without a LS) is around 47% of max HP.

She would go last regardless. Attack Speed is not CTB speed, she's average. And people already clarified why I think that having a pure CTB gauge modifier affect FE AS is silly. Not to mention that CTB doubles don't help much when you're triggering counters. Also, she doubles him with a Killing Edge, so he's risking too much with the crit odds. Everytime he attacks, he's going to need to heal at least once, and the uneven damage (he never knows when he'll get critted) means he can -not- afford to not be at full health unless he wants to dance with death, because he only knows he won't die if he's at full health (not even then if a double-crit happens, but that's not likely to happen).

Also, Dealing 47% to average means she 3HKOs Citan (123% PC HP). If he attacks and she gets a turn, he needs to heal twice right afterwards. He attacks again and gets shredded. He just doesn't have a lot of leeway there.

[James_xeno]

She would go last regardless. Attack Speed is not CTB speed, she's average. And people already clarified why I think that having a pure CTB gauge modifier affect FE AS is silly.

Once again. I know that I didn't articulate this well enough last time.

Attack Speed = speed + (con - weapon weight)

But only when Weapon Weight is more than Constitution.
If it isn't, then 'Attack Speed = speed'

In other words

Attack speed:
Weapon Weight > Con = Speed + (Con - Weapon Weight)
Weapon Weight < Con = Speed
Weapon Weight = Con, = Speed

It's utterly insane to view speed and attack speed as different stats. There's no semblance of reality in that. At most it could be viewed not as a base stat, but a compilation stat. And then only in certain circumstances.

Also, she doubles him with a Killing Edge,

How does she (132% average, t3rd) double Citan (140% average, 1st). She would need to actually be faster than him to do so in FE?? Senkei makes this not even a question.

Not to mention that CTB doubles don't help much when you're triggering counters.

so he's risking too much with the crit odds. Everytime he attacks, he's going to need to heal at least once, and the uneven damage (he never knows when he'll get critted) means he can -not- afford to not be at full health unless he wants to dance with death, because he only knows he won't die if he's at full health (not even then if a double-crit happens, but that's not likely to happen).

I went over this (Killer Edge) before.

Erikia's overall durability is just below average. (below average HP, a little above average DEF and RES) Without healing, assuming she get's critical (Killer Edge) on her second or third attack, she still only 4HKO's average durability at best. Citan has about 123% physical durability, so she can only 5HKO him. Her only hope is for a 4HKO, but she needs at least two criticals in her first four attacks to do so. (N > C > N > C) And that's not happening in the time it takes Citan to KO her. (3HKO - 3 CWs - 142.2% damage)  So even in the best case (N > C > N > DEAD!) it doesn't end well for her. And this (^) is all without even factoring in Citan's healing. 94% (47% w/o LS or ED) of his full HP.

If you see DB's triggering counters, it still wouldn't matter since healing, against her 5-6HKO damage, gives him all the time he needs to KO.

Also, Dealing 47% to average means she 3HKOs Citan (123% PC HP). If he attacks and she gets a turn, he needs to heal twice right afterwards. He attacks again and gets shredded. He just doesn't have a lot of leeway there.

48% to average, but less than 40% to him. He heals 47% of his max HP. 


Citan - Senkei (100%)
Erikia - attack (60%)
Citan - heal (100%)
Citan - attack (60%)
Erikia - attack (20%)
Citan - heal (67%)
Citan - heal (100%)
Erikia - attack (60%)
Citan - attack (20%)
Citan - attack (KO)

[Talaysen]

It's utterly insane to view speed and attack speed as different stats. There's no semblance of reality in that. At most it could be viewed not as a base stat, but a compilation stat. And then only in certain circumstances.

I think you're missing the point that CTB speed is NOT the same as FE speed.  Just like Disgaea speed is only evasion, and does not affect turn order at all.  Just because the stat is named "speed" doesn't mean it's the same "speed" as in another game.

Hell, FE speed does more for evasion than CTB (or even turn based) speed, so it'd almost make more sense to check doubles against the target's evasion instead of CTB speed.  But I doubt anyone would do that.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Actually I've certainly considered doing so! The problem is that evade isn't a standardised stat across casts.

[Ultradude]

Actually, I've considered letting characters double or not based not on relation to average speed, but a speed representative of in-game enemy speeds. For example, Ephraim misses a double against average in the DL, despite doubling the whole damn game in FE8.

I think 17-18 is good for FE7, and 15-16 for FE8 if I do this. Still thinking on FE9, probably same as 7.

[Excal]

The problem with basing a cast on how much they crush their enemies is that it does tend to lead to case where games with really scrubby difficulty now start producing better duellers than they ought.  Also know as, all hail Justin, King of Godlike.

[Pyro]

The idea there Excal is to take the damage of doublers as double for the average, and take the DURABILITY of those who are doubled by enemies as half (this should be exceedingly rare against enemy stats). This results in something more akin to in-game.

And I'm pretty sure everyone in FE8 doubles averagish enemy stats, even taken a bit higher than average. FE8 enemies really suck and outside the Demon King everything is pretty dang reliably doubled.

[Ultradude]

The idea there Excal is to take the damage of doublers as double for the average, and take the DURABILITY of those who are doubled by enemies as half (this should be exceedingly rare against enemy stats). This results in something more akin to in-game.

And I'm pretty sure everyone in FE8 doubles averagish enemy stats, even taken a bit higher than average. FE8 enemies really suck and outside the Demon King everything is pretty dang reliably doubled.

You nailed it, and... you're probably right.

Which leads to superfast characters having evasion as their biggest benefit in the DL with the raised damage averages for FE8. Hrm.

[Dark Holy Elf]

And I'm pretty sure everyone in FE8 doubles averagish enemy stats

Offhand, that's not true, especially at 20/12. Garcia very obviously doesn't, same with Dozla, Duessel, and EDIT: Gilliam, and certain interps of Myrrh.

EDIT2: Average AS of enemies at Last Hope is 12.7. Note that you are below endgame levels here, so you can argue this number should go higher! On the other hand in practice it goes lower because monsters suck and only Deathgoyles, Gwyllgis, and Maelduins have anything approaching speed (i.e. they break the human average). I guess 12.7 works. I'd say "Weight bosses more heavilly" but most lategame bosses are slower than this so whatever.

[Pyro]

Clearly I need to use the suckier FE8 PCs more.

Or not.

Anyways, I think this interp rather badly hurts Eirika in general, since her damage goes from being damned solid to fairly unspecial. It lets her not be doubled here I suppose, which leaves it to a question of how good she is seen at dodging/countering Citan's attacks.

[Dark Holy Elf]

It hurts her in general, because her damage is no longer amazing, but it doesn't hurt her here because she's already not doubling Citan to many interps (not if you're Monkey/CK granted). Her one-hit damage improves some because of those 4-5 PCs who now just have horrible damage, which might cause more issues for Citan's healing.

(Also I have some problems with the interp in general because it does not reflect how bad speeds like Ross' and Kyle's are in-game where they fail to double a huge number of faster enemies. 17 AS fails to double 45 of 97 enemies in Last Hope, for instance. Even 20 AS fails to double more than a quarter of the enemies (25/97).

EDIT: Though it is true that once you hit 23 AS, you're basically in the clear. On the other hand, I can justify a difference between 23 and 26+ in the DL because if you're only 23 at endgame, you were likely having issues doubling SMs in Last Hope. Unless, of course, you're Ephraim, who just doesn't like the DL. Bad DL!)

[Dhyerwolf]

It hurts her in general, because her damage is no longer amazing, but it doesn't hurt her here because she's already not doubling Citan to many interps (not if you're Monkey/CK granted). Her one-hit damage improves some because of those 4-5 PCs who now just have horrible damage, which might cause more issues for Citan's healing.

(Also I have some problems with the interp in general because it does not reflect how bad speeds like Ross' and Kyle's are in-game where they fail to double a huge number of faster enemies. 17 AS fails to double 45 of 97 enemies in Last Hope, for instance. Even 20 AS fails to double more than a quarter of the enemies (25/97).

EDIT: Though it is true that once you hit 23 AS, you're basically in the clear. On the other hand, I can justify a difference between 23 and 26+ in the DL because if you're only 23 at endgame, you were likely having issues doubling SMs in Last Hope. Unless, of course, you're Ephraim, who just doesn't like the DL. Bad DL!)

You could give Ross/Kyle types a chance of doubling equal to the proportion of enemies they'd actually double (So, 55%ish for those two).

And I've thought about doing this before, but was scared off by the large amount of work it would entail to get the enemy stats!

[Talaysen]

You could always consider the opponent's speed with doubles, just compared to enemy speed averages instead of PC speed averages.  Kind of like Jude's Assault Buster taking the opponent's speed compared to enemy speed values.

So someone who barely doubles average enemy speed would still fail to double people above average speed.

[Pyro]

Yeah, I've never seen Citan's Hyper DBs, but it doesn't matter - there's a clear melee portion to the attack (the leadup) which is enough to trigger a counter.

I have to object to this real quick. If someone begins an attack chain at melee range and it chains as part of the move into something that either knocks the enemy away or puts the user at a range, then a (melee) counter should not be triggered. Unless you view the counter as interrupting any kind of attack chaining, which would be ... silly.

XF Secutor's move that knocks an enemy back comes to mind. Or else some Tales characters have something like this I'm sure.

Obviously this doesn't apply to games where range/distance have no meaning, ala most turn-based games and Xenogears in this case.

[Ultradude]

I have to object to this real quick. If someone begins an attack chain at melee range and it chains as part of the move into something that either knocks the enemy away or puts the user at a range, then a (melee) counter should not be triggered. Unless you view the counter as interrupting any kind of attack chaining, which would be ... silly.

XF Secutor's move that knocks an enemy back comes to mind. Or else some Tales characters have something like this I'm sure.

Presea and other's Beast comes to mind; don't see how you're counterattacking when the move itself ends with you sliding a half dozen character lengths across the ground. On the other hand, that's actual in-game effect vs. something that's purely of the animation itself, so I can see something like Citan's deathblows being different.