Author Topic: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut  (Read 8778 times)

Talaysen

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2009, 05:22:42 AM »
Changed my vote to no for P4 bosses.

Taishyr

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2009, 05:32:09 AM »
And... I'm also gonna edit in yes to P4 DW1 Hero. Won't be hurt if he fails to get in, but I think he definitely merits getting in, and he's nowhere near as bad as the Katolike P4 bosses.

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2009, 05:33:55 AM »
P4 & WA5
1. No, haven't played it.
2. Yes, rank it.
3. Rank PCs, don't rank most bosses.  In P4's case that means "forever and not at a later period."  For WA5...  eh, sure, rank IQA to prevent horrible votesplit issues.  Abstain on Souji.

P4 bosses are horrific spoilers.  The WA5 bosses sound afflicted by the "horrible in-game, awesome in the DL" rule which is a strike against, and W5's meh reception and playership mean that marginal ranks are less interesting.

Re the Souji hype: There was a topic on the Demifiend, I know, but was there ever a topic for Souji vs. Godlike?  I don't recall one...  also, looking at the stat topic, it seems that Hassou Tobi respect is variable, since the variety of damage averages have it everywhere from being merely 1.2x PCHPish damage to being horrific 2x PCHP overkill.  And despite costing life, it should probably be factored into the averages somewhat since it's actually a worthwhile slugfesting move.

Against Souji, I'd like to point out that a lot of possible victories against him come down to deciding if a particular boss's attacks count as non-elemental or not, due to Souji's ability to spoil absolutely any element including physical.  The others come down to deciding just how good Hassou Tobi is and if it can OHKO a boss before it statuses.  Meh to that.  Also, just looking at other top PC godlikes...  Citan and Orlandu get owned by nulling physicals.  Ryu3 probably gets killed by Hassou Tobi or statused?  Yuna's evade might save her vs. HT, but apparently Souji still has 60% ID, so call that one a coinflip (and Yuna, frankly, is Bluelike - get a turn and win and all).  Plus, if denied her optional Aeons, Souji probably beats the Aeon Parade anyway with fullhealing and nulling their elements.

Sure, tanky bosses with a reliable status win (Ghaleon?  Piastol?), as can tanky bosses with either non-elemental overkill or overkill in any element they'd like (Lady, Zophar if FS is non-elemental rather than Dark), but that seems like it.  Souji munches on Fou-Lu, Xorn, Empyrea...  will abstain, since a lot seems to depend on just how good HT is for overkilling bosses before they can status him, but curious to see other's thoughts about his beatableness.

Edit: See Dhyerwolf about Piastol, guess the question mark was warranted.  Silver is both Holy and Dark, basically, so a Persona that nulls both of 'em clearly nails Eternum.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 08:10:09 AM by SnowFire »

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2009, 06:27:19 AM »
Wild Arms V
1. Yes
2. Yes
Who to rank: The PCs, the Sentinels, Nightburn, Ice Queen Avril, and Volsung.

Persona 4
1. No
2. Yes
3. Abstain

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2009, 07:53:40 AM »
Sure, tanky bosses with a reliable status win (Ghaleon?  Piastol?), as can tanky bosses with either non-elemental overkill or overkill in any element they'd like (Lady, Zophar if FS is non-elemental rather than Dark), but that seems like it.  Souji munches on Fou-Lu, Xorn, Empyrea...  will abstain, since a lot seems to depend on just how good HT is for overkilling bosses before they can status him, but curious to see other's thoughts about his beatableness.

Piastol only wins if you either consider Silver to be neither Holy or Dark or consider Blue to be part Water and not all Wind. Otherwise she can't even damage him thanks to Helel getting Wind/Holy/Dark.

Status feels like a theoretical flaw with Souji. They have to live to their turn, and Souji is fast with Hassan Tobi. Throw in Auto-Matarukaja and that's a lot of damage to survive. Yes, there are Godlikes that can do this, and they may even be able to apply the right status and then have the damage types after that to kill him. But...it's probably not that many on the whole.
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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2009, 09:06:10 AM »
Wild Arms V
1. Yes
2. Yes
Who to rank: The PCs, the Sentinels, Nightburn, Ice Queen Avril.  Abstain Volsung.

Persona 4
1. No
2. Yes
3. Abstain

Minor tweak.

Sums it up for me.  On Volsung, it's been a while since I played, from what I've read alot of people sort of force crit's for relevant characters according to their probablities of occurring, like someone who has a 33% chance of critting will crit on every third turn they take.  Since WA5 basically hands you every enemies skillset and the probability of it occuring per turn in game, it might be a good idea to figure his average chance per turn over the entire skillset and force his double much in the same way as crits and statuses and whatnot.  I'm decently certain that it's low enough that he wouldn't be doubling more then 1 out of 5 turns that way.  I wouldn't mind popping the game back in and figuring the mathy stuff out if this sounds like a decent idea when I get home tommorrow evening, I should have a save right before him.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 09:34:42 AM by Glen Veil »

Talaysen

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2009, 09:17:59 AM »
Most bosses have algorithms like that, and most people don't force them to said algorithms.  It's not fair to make only WA5 bosses do this while letting other people who have AI algorithms go free just because you can't see them in-game.

Also, there's a big difference between "this move does X effect Y% of the time" and "boss uses X move Y% of the time".

For the record, I believe it's 3/8 chance on turn 3/7/11... and 1/8 chance on turn 4/8/12...,

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2009, 09:33:55 AM »
Yeah, kinda a rando though on my part.  I feel kinda stupid for trying to compare chance on hit percentages to chance to use a move now that I think about it.  Kinda just randomly trying to come up with ideas to fairly nerf that form since people don't seem to like the other two that much.  I guess I'll just abstain on him then since I don't have a diverse enough library to know how many godlikes kill him before his third turn.

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2009, 05:46:32 PM »
Wild Arms V
1. No.
2. Yes. PCs, the Sentinels, Nightburn, Ice Queen Avril. No to everything else.

Persona 4
1. No
2. Yes. PCs minus Souji, 8-bit Hero. No to everything else.
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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2009, 06:18:23 PM »
WA5
1. Partially
2. Abstain. I don't have a good reason to not want it in aside from really disliking the game. But I can't bring myself to support ranking it either.

Persona 4
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Rank PCs...including Souji. Rank 8-Bit Hero. Rank the killer.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 06:38:02 PM by Gatewalker »
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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2009, 10:24:09 PM »
Wild Arms 5:

No.

Yes.

Abstain on specifics. *Yawn.* Whatever, it's a pretty harmless game unless I missed something.

Persona 4:

No.

Yes.

Yes to all PCs. Abstain on Souji-I have...no real idea how I feel about a Persona main, they feel like trainwreck potential and from a game that's, well, less popular than say FFX(Or even Lunar:EB, as of right now, although I suspect that will change with time). I don't really have an objection per se or anything, just dunno. Maybe if I'd played the game I'd have some more firm idea.

No to bosses. C'mon guys, we didn't rank Kato because the game had barely been out any time. Have some patience. :(

Edit: Yes to Souji. Talked myself into the idea thinking about it a while.

Edit: No to Rise. I really should not have to say this, but.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 02:15:18 AM by SageAcrin »
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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2009, 11:45:42 PM »
Sage: The one boss I've nommed isn't a Kato boss, he's more a... Goldfish Poop Gang with a somewhat tough fight. It's hard to take him seriously, though.

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2009, 02:09:08 PM »
That form is questionable on who/what it is. Definitely passing on that.
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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2009, 04:46:06 PM »
Spoilers typed below, some taken from the discussion topic.  I really can't discuss some stuff here without spoilers, so...be warned.



As for the 4 (5) big bosses getting support (or no support):

1) Mitsuo Kubo (Shadow Mitsuo, 8-bit Hero, whatever): So...really don't think we'd be ranking him - just the shadow form.  They really aren't the same person (not that I'll object too much, but...).  Mitsuo denies the shadow, much like the other characters do, causing the shadow form to be born.  It's separate from him, similar to the other shadow forms (different voice), especially due to the fact that Mitsuo doesn't accept it (still denies it), unlike the other characters, so, plot-wise, it is still separate from him.  Now, if you just want to rank the Shadow Form, that's a different story, just noting that the Shadow Form...isn't the person, for whatever that's worth.

2) Taro Namatame (Kunino-Sagiri): I think I explained this a while ago somewhere to someone.  From what I remember reading on interpretations, the plot in him is as follows.  Kunino-Sagiri is the Goddess of the Fog (Ameno being the God).  Taro was given the power of persona and the ability to enter the TV from Izanami.  For the battle, it is him - while he doesn't fight like Adachi does, it is him (voice, attitude, he's drained after the battle, hence why he's put in the hospital afterwards).  He merges with his Shadow (i.e., as the game plot puts it, his persona) to become Hippie Jesus (i.e., the peaceful saviour).  He's fully in control of it, and as the game states, those given the power can mold it however they want to achieve what they believe is the true answer.

3) Tohru Adachi (The Killer): Really doesn't need much explanation.  Only issue here is the spoilerness (which, due to the deal made about it...makes it a bigger spoiler than it would have been :/).  Do note that he states he is entirely in control of his actions, though, which matters when we get to...

4) Ameno-Sagiri (Big Fucking Eye): A being Izanami created secondary to Adachi's motivations (she was watching to see how a few random people with power would use it - since Adachi was first to enter the town and make use of it, she put him at the forefront of everything, giving form to Ameno-Sagiri to create the world Adachi was aiming for).  Once Adachi is beaten, Ameno-Sagiri recognizes this - others with similar power are trying to change the original paradigm, and so he tests whether the new aims of the party can overcome him (i.e., those of the original "creator", as it were).  Of all the bosses (excluding Mitsuo), Ameno is the most Necron-like (not that he really is, but most like), and has the shortest exposition (and requires some digging and thought), so probably the least important to rank, to me, on a plot aspect.

5) Izanami (The Goddess): See a lot of the above.  She comes out near the end, but is technically the 4th character you meet in the game (Soji - Nanako - Ryotaro - Izanami in Drag).  If you talk to people often, you get this from her as the Gas Station Attendant, and she's alluded to many times (and, if you look closely at the Fog Battle at the start of the game, you can make out the Gas Station Attendant Outline - she actually reminds me of Beatrice a lot).  She is the orchestrator of the game, though is a little obscure, but honestly, I think everyone fights her, and knows about her existence.  Definitely support ranking her - she's arguably the least spoileriffic of all the above, so would be fine to rank now.




Just wanted to put those notes out there.  Considering changing my ranking thoughts, but will wait a bit.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 02:39:08 AM by OblivionKnight »
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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2009, 11:05:24 PM »
Wild ARMs 5

1.  Played.
2.  Rank.
3. PCs, all bosses (including IQA) except!  No Volsung.

Persona 4

1. Played.
2. Rank.
3. PCs except!  No Souji.  Yes all bosses (like the spoilery ones have support) except! no hippies.
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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2009, 11:38:42 PM »
P4

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. PC cast, yes to Souji. No on the bosses right now, let's see how it does with PCs first.

WA5

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. PC Cast, bosses
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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2009, 02:06:01 AM »
Wild ARMs 5

1.No

2.Abstain

Persona 4

1.Yes

2.Yes

3.PC cast including Souji, wait on the bosses.
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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2009, 02:28:25 AM »
Wild ARMs 5

Played: No
Ranks: Abstain on everyone except Volsung and IQA, no to both of them.

Persona 4

Played: Yes
Rank: The killer, and all PCs including Souji. Abstain on mitsuo, ameno-sagiri, and izanami. No to kunino-sagiri.

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2009, 03:14:51 AM »
WA5
1. Have you played this game? - Tes
2. Rank it? - Sure. Rank the PCs, IQA and the Sentinels. Abstain on Nightburn and Volsung.
3. Why or why not?
I always felt Nightburn in the grand scheme of things wasn't that memorable *shrugs*. As for Volsung...on one hand, he basically rides Bluelike using a gimmick that will likely never happen in game. He's not the first type of "get turn, you lose" duellist we have (although this is pretty literal), so I don't see it as big of an offense to rank him. THAT BEING SAID, I can clearly understand why ranking him is such a bad idea. So yeah, abstain.


P4
1. Have you played this game? - Yes
2. Rank it? - Sure. Rank the PCs sans Souji for now. No to Souji. No to bosses
3. Why or why not?
Bosses (aside from spoilerness), I am generally not impressed with for being memorable. One boss that doesn't count as the frue ending and then the frue ending boss being pretty out there and easily missable. Guess it doesn't help that P3 bosses (even the ranked STREGA) also failed to inspire me, so it sets a precedent for me. As for Souji, he's more rankable than Minato but interp headache that I rather not deal with.
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Talaysen

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2009, 06:13:13 AM »
He's not the first type of "get turn, you lose" duellist we have (although this is pretty literal), so I don't see it as big of an offense to rank him. THAT BEING SAID, I can clearly understand why ranking him is such a bad idea. So yeah, abstain.

Unlike the other duellists of this sort, Volsung actually has durability and status immunity.  VERY hard to stop him from getting a turn.

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2009, 07:57:27 AM »
Hence why I said ranking him is a bad idea >_>
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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2009, 09:21:51 PM »
Abstain on WA5 due to lack of playing/caring about the game. 

For P4, no to Souji, yes to other PCs, no to bosses.

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2009, 06:05:17 PM »
Wild ARMs 5

1. Yes.

2. Abstain. Entire cast can burn in hell.

Persona 4

1.Yes.

2.Yes.

3.PC cast not including Rise, Rat bastard 8-Bit Hero, Killer.
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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2009, 10:40:46 PM »
Rank everything.
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superaielman

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Re: Season 52 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2009, 01:45:05 AM »
This closes when the update fires (27ish hours). So get your votes/edits/comments in now!
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