Season 52 rankings- making the final cut

[Dark Holy Elf]

Re Volsung, his first form is indeed a hollogram. As far as Kartikeya goes, he can not chain Double Action infinitely, the most he can get is three consecutive turns. If I voted on Karti's duel form I would certainly allow him to triple act.

What do you propose with Volsung? You can ban form 2, but that seems unfair seeing as, to me at least, it's his most legal by quite a ways (not a hollogram, not fused with Hatred). You can ban Double Action, but that makes no sense; if he couldn't chain it, he'd be better? (a la Kartikeya) If we do rank Volsung I will vote on him as makes him most legal to me... which is to say he beats everyone once he gets a turn more or less. That's Bluelike. I don't want to rank Bluelikes. Compensating for their Bluelikeness through arbitrary nerfs will necessarily create annoyingly large interp splits, which obviously, I don't like (though you don't seem to mind).

Regarding Ice Queen Avril, I think Fei/Id is good enough precedent for ranking multiple "personalities" that exhibit different physical features, and again, I emphasise that the consequences for NOT ranking two Avrils are much more unpleasant. (As Dhyer noted, it is a completely legitimate split between Light and Godlike and numerous people will hold each view.) Though yeah, you don't seem to mind this, so <_<. I just don't see how somebody puttering around in, say, Middle or Heavy, who is either auto-winning or auto-losing their matches to most people, is good for the DL at all.

[Pyro]

Yeah NEB conviced me on Avril. I'll throw in a vote for IQA.

[Meeplelard]

WA5:
1. Yes
2. Yeah, it kept missing the mark but not so much cause it was a bad idea but cause there were better (and more interesting) ideas, which isn't the game's fault.
3. Rank the PCs, the Sentinels, and Nightburn.  I do not support IQA, and Volsung can go die for the usual Bluelike reasons.  I think people are overemphasizing the impact IQA is actually going to have on Avril honestly *shrugs*

P4:
1. No.
2. Abstain
3. Rather not assess P4 knowing almost nothing about it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I think people are overemphasizing the impact IQA is actually going to have on Avril honestly *shrugs*

Um, there are a significant number of people who intend to vote on boss Avril if we rank one Avril. And a significant number who intend to vote on the PC.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know where that is headed! I don't see how this is "overemphasising" the impact of the situation at all.

[Sierra]

Yeah NEB conviced me on Avril. I'll throw in a vote for IQA.

Ditto. That, and I have to admit that what little resistance I did have to the idea mostly stems from having two people ranked with the same art/name being aesthetically unpalatable. And me being anal isn't really a good enough reason to object to a rank.

[superaielman]

In fairness, Fei/Id was an RPGP thing and not us. The only other case where that came up was with the giant eye, and that had some unpleasant spoiler/art problems.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I believe Crazed Eye had far fewer people who consider it a legal form for its corresponding PC, and even if it didn't the interpsplit would be far smaller. (Mid Heavy vs. Heavy/Godlike or so?)

I agree with you about Fei/Id being the RPGP, but I don't think it's been a bad situation that we've regretted in any sense (compare various RPGP ideas which haven't worked in the DL from Nall/Ruby to General Leo). It's not so much about a precedent, it's about the fact that we have a parallel situation already, and it really hasn't caused any problems. My main reason for strongly supporting the dual Avril rank is I feel it's by far the least of the evils, and drawing a comparison to Fei/Id (which has been inoffensive) reinforces this.

Basically, it's a Fei/Id situation vs. a Lezard situation. Unless you enjoy trainwrecks, it seems an easy enough choice to me.

[superaielman]

I don't particularly mind the split here, Id is a solid rank and also not a spoiler. The Crazed Eye is a large one, otherwise I think we would've ranked it. My only real concern at this point is how many Godlike bosses we're ranking, and WA games usually cheat in that regard and throw a lot of plot bosses at you like this. That's still.. four Godlike bosses? Hope the game doesn't tank.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Mm, I'll be pushing for just 3 myself, but two more will likely get votes in that direction. I see your concern, but we've taken similar risks with other games (Grandia 3 and Shadow Hearts 3 come to mind as games in similar situations). WA5 has the advantage that none of the Godlikes are scary good - Persephone is decent but it's a long way from her to Xorn or Lady.

[DjinnAndTonic]

My only real concern at this point is how many Godlike bosses we're ranking, and WA games usually cheat in that regard and throw a lot of plot bosses at you like this. That's still.. four Godlike bosses?

And this is exactly the reason I want to see WA5 ranked at all. Even Volsung.

Godlike is fun when the season isn't being dominated by a single dueller. More interesting bosses can only help this.

[Lord Ephraim]

Wild ARMs 5

Played until Dean lost the shovel
Yes

Rank Black Fenrir Dean and Rebecca. Abstain on other PCs. No to the Bluelikes

Persona 4

Yes
Yes

Obviously rank everyone

[Dhyerwolf]

I'd personally throw in 4 of the WA 5 bosses into Godlike myself, but even so, they really are notably less powerful than SH 3 bosses (if only thanks to Lady) and G3 bosses, and neither of those two are big drawers.

[Niu]

WA5
Yes
Yes
Rank all PCs, but death to Avril, we don't need more boring lights, Ice Queen is a far better idea. And rank the bosses, but exclude Vulsung for obvious reasons.

P4
Yes
Yes
Rank all PCs, minus Soji.
Against the Dragon Quest nerd and New World Fool 1. For the true killer, the disco eye, and the gas stand part timer.

[Ultradude]

...half the PCs are boring lights, Niu. Avril probably has as much a claim to a Mountain Medium as Dean and Rebecca have a claim to... anything.

EDIT: Which is to say, please convince me of Dean and Rebecca getting Mediums.

[Mad Fnorder]

WA5
Played: Yes, to completion
Rank: No, and I shall stand on this sinking ship until the end.

The PCs are all a spastic curve that I'm not sure anyone agrees on based on either near-miss assignment arguments, or are skillsetless characters more boring than Fire Emblem because their actual abilities have a lower percentage chance of kicking in. Oh boy, more bland PC lights.

The Bosses, utterly retarded Bluelike aside, are basically the same flavor of mediocre to decent durability, an elemental strength and weakness, and Slightly varying stupid high damage you're supposed to use one of the game's many tactical moves to not get one-shot by. Oh boy, more generic pure damage H/G border bosses.

The game just does not translate well to DL format, in my opinion, the PCs especially. IQA is a terrible rank, but I support it to prevent later Avril votesplit, if the game does get ranked. The DL thrives on discussion, on differing interpretation, but this kind of falls apart when it reaches opposite ends of the spectrum- when one person's basis for a character winning puts them in Low Heavy and another person's argument against put the character in High Light, there's little basis for discussion.

In conclusion, WA5 can suck a lemon.

P4
Played: Yes, to completion
Rank:Yes

Rank all PCs with final personae, including Souji. Rank Hippie Guy and the two finals, and frue final.

They're all interesting, with a broad spread of ranks. Souji's stat topic is mostly done anyway, so the research issue is moot, and an amazing versatile PC Mid-high godlike is a cool rank. The bosses are fine, and all have neat tricks and strategies. Frue final is obscure but not that obscure, and I feel that most people who missed it would hear about it, load up their save near the end, and go see it out of curiosity.

[Nitori]

WA5

Yes
Yes - *jumps off sinking ship*. Considering that we never attempt to cut already existing boring Lights, they should all get in. Besides, we miss out on CHUCK hype if we don't rank this, which may be more important than P4~

Rank PCs, Sentinels, Nightburn (aka Hank Scorpio), IQA. Abstain on Volsung.

P4

Yes
Yes

All PCs, abstain on bosses.

[Dunefar]

Wild ARMs 5

Yep.
Sure, why not? PCs, Sentinels, Nightburn. Don't like 'em but I can't see any real reason to keep them out. No to Volsung, I'll leave IQA to be quibbled over within Avril's ranking.

Persona 4

Nope.
Apathy, pass.

[Dhyerwolf]

WA5
Played: Yes, to completion
Rank: No, and I shall stand on this sinking ship until the end.

The PCs are all a spastic curve that I'm not sure anyone agrees on based on either near-miss assignment arguments, or are skillsetless characters more boring than Fire Emblem because their actual abilities have a lower percentage chance of kicking in. Oh boy, more bland PC lights.

The Bosses, utterly retarded Bluelike aside, are basically the same flavor of mediocre to decent durability, an elemental strength and weakness, and Slightly varying stupid high damage you're supposed to use one of the game's many tactical moves to not get one-shot by. Oh boy, more generic pure damage H/G border bosses.

The game just does not translate well to DL format, in my opinion, the PCs especially. IQA is a terrible rank, but I support it to prevent later Avril votesplit, if the game does get ranked. The DL thrives on discussion, on differing interpretation, but this kind of falls apart when it reaches opposite ends of the spectrum- when one person's basis for a character winning puts them in Low Heavy and another person's argument against put the character in High Light, there's little basis for discussion.

Spastic curve? I think that the majority of people tend to agree on Mediums for at least 4 of the PCs (The 3 that start with Mediums and Rebecca), and if the last two get anything, tends to be the Mountain Medium (Which gives some light regen, some minor anti-physical stuff, shitty Protect that is arguably status immunity...and that's about it. Not a medium that gives a big change). While the mediumless PCs aren't interesting, they are at least non-horrid Lights, which at least means that they won't be getting into slapfights with Nara (Always plus for me).

Elemental strength/weakness stuff on the bosses is a good thing! Elemental weaknesses could always use more DL representation. In also say that the notable variations in the uber moves along with the charge times tend to create some interesting differences (Certainly Persephone's ITD smash with a charge time isn't too common a DL strategy, Fereydoon has the ID and lesser ITD for tearing up tanky PCs, Elvis has the deadlier limit style, and Karti has the worst!).

Avril's split isn't Low Heavy-Light, since massive speed+4D Pocket alone ensures High Heavy (And that's before the solid durability and the 2HKO Wind damage.

[Mad Fnorder]

Spastic curve? I think that the majority of people tend to agree on Mediums for at least 4 of the PCs (The 3 that start with Mediums and Rebecca), and if the last two get anything, tends to be the Mountain Medium (Which gives some light regen, some minor anti-physical stuff, shitty Protect that is arguably status immunity...and that's about it. Not a medium that gives a big change). While the mediumless PCs aren't interesting, they are at least non-horrid Lights, which at least means that they won't be getting into slapfights with Nara (Always plus for me).

Elemental strength/weakness stuff on the bosses is a good thing! Elemental weaknesses could always use more DL representation. In also say that the notable variations in the uber moves along with the charge times tend to create some interesting differences (Certainly Persephone's ITD smash with a charge time isn't too common a DL strategy, Fereydoon has the ID and lesser ITD for tearing up tanky PCs, Elvis has the deadlier limit style, and Karti has the worst!).

Avril's split isn't Low Heavy-Light, since massive speed+4D Pocket alone ensures High Heavy (And that's before the solid durability and the 2HKO Wind damage.

I don't pretend to know what the majority takes as the curve, so I can't really argue with that. It just seemed like, even in the ranking topic, there was a great deal of disagreement over medium assignment, appropriateness, and the use of blank mediums.

I guess because the actual damage spread doesn't seem that big, and they all have the strategy of "10: Use super move, 20: goto 10", having an elemental property doesn't seem to be enough to differentiate them to me.

And Heavy-low ligth was just and example. H/G borderline-Light is even worse, in terms of my point about votesplit character.

[Dhyerwolf]

Basically anyone who gave a ranking in that topic went with Carol/Chuck/Greg having their Mediums. Very few people noted that they noted anything otherwise, besides some questionableness for Greg's. There was discussion of blank Mediums, but very few people seemed to really adopt the view.

Persephone limit has over triple the starting damage that Elvis's has, so there's definetely a notable split damage wise. The bosses aren't greatly different, but the differences in limit do stand out (And in Proving Grounds at least, Elvis and Kartikeya both did get leverage out of their other moves, or sometimes were hurt because their magic was blocked). There are definetely some very differences in practice.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, agreed with Dhyer. The bosses vary in notable ways and are certainly interesting. The method of execution of the super moves alone is interesting (can't use them if the person is getting a turn in the next half-round!). They're more interesting than lots of bosses we already have ranked.

Nightburn is less interesting (outside his elemental resists/weaknesses and his gravity option, so even he's not that bad) but he's plot relevant, and is Hank Scorpio.

Greg/Carol/Chuck are all reasonably interesting due to the mediums, and I believe they're all generally agreed to have them (Greg has raised some questions but ultimately I think most do allow him his). The other three PCs have some issues (no common interp to see them with mediums, but some will find ways) but that's no reason to block the game as a whole.

[superaielman]

Changing my Souji vote to a yes. He's beaten by a large enough percentage of Godlike (More than I expected, go imperfect status blocking) that I'm at least somewhat comfortable with ranking him.

[Taishyr]

Ditto. though I'm 95% sure I see less of Godlike by far losing to him than super does, he's still beatable. So whatever, PC Annoyingly High Godlike.

[074]

P4:

Yes
Yes

PCs that are not Souji.  Bosses can be ranked 1-2 sessions later after the game's old and the issue can't be considered that much of a spoiler.  Hell fucking fuck no to Souji.


WA5:

Yes
As much as I despise the thought of doing so, there's no reason not to, so yes.

PCs, Sentinels, Hank Scorpio--err, I mean Nightburn. abstain on IQA; while it could be a Fei/Id thing, it strikes me more as a P4-style Shadow.  Another giant Fuck No to Volsung.
...hm. 

[Ultradude]

Just thought I'd mention that I edited in a 'Yes' for Souji. Lack of status coverage sells it, and a few Godlikes probably win anyways.