Poll

Bouns Round: Lycia vs. Tellius

Lycia (Eliwood, Hector, Lyn, Roy)
3 (25%)
Tellius (Elincia, Ike9, Ike10, Micaiah)
9 (75%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!  (Read 5840 times)

Meeplelard

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Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« on: January 30, 2008, 10:21:02 PM »
Yeah, bored, so figured I'd run something like this!  Might follow up later, but for now...yeah...

Anyway, using the term "Lord" loosely here.  FE10 doesn't actually have any class called "Lord" so for that, I basically said "any character who is a Leader and has a unique class."  They also all have a unique weapon or two, but that's more a side effect or something! Yeah, there's technically one other character who'd fit this, but he's completely unbalanced and...yeah...
Ike will be split up into two characters; Ike9 and Ike10.  Take a guess what they imply <_< >_>.  Similarly, Elincia is only to use her FE10 form (...granted, not sure why she would want her FE9 form.)  I'm aware her FE9 form is more played, but that form isn't remotely Lordlike.  Everyone is to be taken DL Legally, naturally.

Also only covering Modern FEs, which is to say, GBAs and up.  So any Lord prior to, but not including, Roy gets ignored.  Saves some sanity too given stuff like those FE4 Legendaries of DOOM (and FE4 is the only one with something resembling Playership anyway.)

So...yeah, MATCH UPS!  Doing this in an FIT Pool style, and in Alphabetical order!

Eirika vs. Elincia
Eirika vs. Eliwood
Eirika vs. Ephraim
Eirika vs. Hector
Eirika vs. Ike9
Eirika vs. Ike10
Eirika vs. Lyn
Eirika vs. Micaiah
Eirika vs. Roy

Elincia vs. Eliwood
Elincia vs. Ephraim
Elincia vs. Hector
Elincia vs. Ike9
Elincia vs. Ike10
Elincia vs. Lyn
Elincia vs. Micaiah
Elincia vs. Roy

Eliwood vs. Ephraim
Eliwood vs. Hector
Eliwood vs. Ike9
Eliwood vs. Ike10
Eliwood vs. Lyn
Eliwood vs. Micaiah
Eliwood vs. Roy

Ephraim vs. Hector
Ephraim vs. Ike9
Ephraim vs. Ike10
Ephraim vs. Lyn
Ephraim vs. Micaiah
Ephraim vs. Roy

Hector vs. Ike9
Hector vs. Ike10
Hector vs. Lyn
Hector vs. Micaiah
Hector vs. Roy

Ike9 vs. Ike10
Ike9 vs. Lyn
Ike9 vs. Micaiah
Ike9 vs. Roy

Ike10 vs. Lyn
Ike10 vs. Micaiah
Ike10 vs. Roy

Lyn vs. Micaiah
Lyn vs. Roy
Micaiah vs. Roy

BONUS ROUND!
Lords of Lycia vs. Heros of Tellius!

(yes, Lyn counts as a Lycian, given she spent a year as a princess of Caelin and such, so shut up.)

And cause I'm a nice guy, here's a quick run over of character equipment and what kind of classification they have!  Not listing a unique weapon if its completely worthless for these purposes *looks at Ike's Regal Sword and Roy's Rapier*

Eirika: Swords (includes Rapier and Siegliende), Mounted
Elincia: Swords (includes Amiti) and Staves, Aerial
Eliwood: Swords (includes Durandal and Rapier) and Lances, Mounted
Ephraim: Lances (includes Reginlief and Siegmund), Mounted
Hector: Axes (includes Armads and Wolf Beil), Armored
Ike9: Swords (includes Ragnell)
Ike10: Swords (includes Ragnell) and Axes
Lyn: Swords (includes Mani Katti and Sol Katti) and Bows, Swordsman
Micaiah: Light Magic (includes Thani) and Staves
Roy: Swords (includes Sword of Seals)

So yeah, now I run!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 03:29:54 PM by Meeplelard »
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Ultradude

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2008, 01:40:55 AM »
*Flexes* Now here's something I can handle! I've even seen enough FE10 to vote on Ike and Micaiah well enough for this. Sadly, missing FE10 Elincia, since my friend didn't... really use her much.

Eirika vs. Elincia
Eirika vs. Eliwood: Faster, more damage.
Eirika vs. Ephraim: Doubles.
Eirika vs. Hector: Speed + WTA + rapier.
Eirika vs. Ike9: Isn't doubled, better on both damage and durability.
Eirika vs. Ike10: Doubles.
Eirika vs. Lyn: Mani Katti.
Eirika vs. Micaiah: Micaiah vs. fast physical with non-fail res.
Eirika vs. Roy: Healing sword of doom.

Elincia vs. Eliwood
Elincia vs. Ephraim
Elincia vs. Hector
Elincia vs. Ike9
Elincia vs. Ike10
Elincia vs. Lyn
Elincia vs. Micaiah
Elincia vs. Roy

Eliwood vs. Ephraim: So much better.
Eliwood vs. Hector: Isn't doubled, awesome sheer power.
Eliwood vs. Ike9
Eliwood vs. Ike10
Eliwood vs. Lyn
Eliwood vs. Micaiah: EDIT: Right, Thani. Ouch.
Eliwood vs. Roy: Doesn't need healing sword of doom.

Ephraim vs. Hector: Honestly... wow... powerhouse slugfest, both 3HKO, Eph misses the double, giving it to WTA.
Ephraim vs. Ike9: EDIT: Ranged attacks, right.
Ephraim vs. Ike10: Still wins this though, I think.
Ephraim vs. Lyn: WTA, I don't think Lyn's damage is good enough here, even with Mani Katti vs. mounted.
Ephraim vs. Micaiah: Micaiah cannot take Eph-level beatdown.
Ephraim vs. Roy: Ike + 1 shot of healing.

Hector vs. Ike9: Faster, WTA, just as tanky.
Hector vs. Ike10: Still enough of the above.
Hector vs. Lyn: Much faster, and Mani Katti.
Hector vs. Micaiah: EDIT: Sure, Thani works.
Hector vs. Roy: Again, ranged attacks.

Ike9 vs. Ike10: Faster, more durable, better damage.
Ike9 vs. Lyn: Isn't doubled, too much more durable.
Ike9 vs. Micaiah
Ike9 vs. Roy: Could go Ike pretty easily though.

Ike10 vs. Lyn: Doubles,
Ike10 vs. Micaiah
Ike10 vs. Roy: Only needs one healing.

Lyn vs. Micaiah
Lyn vs. Roy: Can tank a crit.

Micaiah vs. Roy: Ranged counters make this messy.

So far...
Roy 8-0 (Dammit!)
Ike9 7-1
Eirika 5-3
Lyn 5-3
Ephraim 4-4
Ike10 3-5 (what a difference!)
Hector 2-6
Micaiah 2-6 (Spoils some FEers?)
Eliwood 0-8 (Eliwuss!)


EDITED: Took into account ranged attacks, decided on one shot of healing for Roy and finished him up.

EDIT2 (how many more will I make?): Thani's boosted against armor and mounted, depriving Eliwood of his one potential win.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 02:00:28 PM by Ultradude »
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VySaika

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2008, 02:25:12 AM »
For now I'm abstaining on Elincia/Ike10/Micaiah as I haven't played enough FE10 yet.

Also, a question on weakness hitting. In FE7, the armor/mounted weakness hitting weapons did 2x might. In FE8, they did 3x. Do we take this as a property of the weapon, so Hector/Eliwood do 2x while the twins do 3x? Or do we take this as a property of the game, so the Eliwood/Hector take 2x no matter who it's from and the twins take 3x? My kneejerk is to say that weakness is a defensive property not an offensive one and take the latter. Anyone else's thoughts on this?

Eirika vs. Elincia
Eirika vs. Eliwood-I think the weakness question matters here. I'm not sure if she doubles him or not, and if Eliwood can hit 3x weakness, he might pull this off. EDIT: Thought Eliwood was just above average, not just below. And Eirika is HOW fast!? Good lord, I knew she was quick, but FASTER THEN LYN? The hell. Yeah, she takes this.
Eirika vs. Hector-WTA and speed lets her pull this off regardless, I think.
Eirika vs. Ike9-Ike attacks at range, depriving her of counters, she has to close in and lets him counter.
Eirika vs. Ike10
Eirika vs. Lyn-Manni Katti does the job. No doubles on either side, and Lyn's the only one hitting weakness.
Eirika vs. Micaiah
Eirika vs. Roy-Sword of Broke is broke.

Elincia vs. Eliwood
Elincia vs. Ephraim
Elincia vs. Hector
Elincia vs. Ike9
Elincia vs. Ike10
Elincia vs. Lyn
Elincia vs. Micaiah
Elincia vs. Roy

Eliwood vs. Ephraim-See Eirika vs Hector.
Eliwood vs. Hector-Isn't quite doubled I think, and just plain overpowers him.
Eliwood vs. Ike9-Yeah, no.
Eliwood vs. Ike10
Eliwood vs. Lyn-Too fast, hits weakness and he doesn't, etc.
Eliwood vs. Micaiah
Eliwood vs. Roy-Sword of Seals. Splat.

Ephraim vs. Hector-Now here it matters. Abstaining until I hear other oppinions on the weakness thing.
Ephraim vs. Ike9-Range again. Ike attacks at range, forcing Eph to use a Javelin if he wants counters. And Eph isn't beating Ike without counters, or with Javelin vs Ragnell damage.
Ephraim vs. Ike10
Ephraim vs. Lyn-hmm. Even with WTA, Eph may well miss a crucial attack. And she's got the Manni Katti for weakness smacking. I'm really not sure. Leaning Eph though on respect for his sheer power.
Ephraim vs. Micaiah
Ephraim vs. Roy-See Ike>Eph, really. Roy doesn't have Ike's raw stats, but has the Sword of Broke, and though I only allow 1 shot of healing from it per fight, he only needs the 1 playing the range game.

Hector vs. Ike9-Hector's damn good. This is still one sided as all hell.
Hector vs. Ike10
Hector vs. Lyn-She's exactly the kind of fighter he hates.
Hector vs. Micaiah
Hector vs. Roy-Range, Sword of Broke.

Ike9 vs. Ike10
Ike9 vs. Lyn-This is...hmm. Lyn's got a shot even with Ike playing the range game, she's evasive enough...and might double? I'm gonna lean towards no doubling, I think. That's really iffy though. Vote...might change.
Ike9 vs. Micaiah
Ike9 vs. Roy-Ike can't play range here, and while he beats Roy on pure stats, Roy has the sword of broke. That 1 shot of healing should let him scratch this out here. Conversely, Ike wins flat out if Aether activates, and he'll be attacking close up to get those checks. But then Roy will back off and attack at range to deny Ike the Aether checks on counters...yeah, going Roy. Sword of Broke is broke. Good match though. I could be argued here, as I'm not really certain either way.

Ike10 vs. Lyn
Ike10 vs. Micaiah
Ike10 vs. Roy

Lyn vs. Micaiah
Lyn vs. Roy-If Roy were mounted, Lyn would take this. As is, range and Sword of Broke is broke.

Micaiah vs. Roy
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 02:34:18 AM by Gatewalker »
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Ultradude

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2008, 03:37:38 AM »
Ah. Forgot to take into account ranged attacks on Ragnell and Sword of Broke. I'll go make the necessary adjustments.

Also, Ike's speed is nearly good enough to double average, and I think Lyn only doubles a little above average speed. He's... really awesome in FE9.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2008, 04:21:24 AM »
Where do you get the idea that Ike10 > Ike9?

Hmm. Quick summary...

Micaiah beats both Eliwood and Hector (Ultradude, you may want to consider Thani, Micaiah's 24 might tome against armour and horse). 2HKOs them easily, and avoids their counters unless they both go second and have a Javelin/Hand Axe out for the opening counter. And that Jav/Hand Axe needs to HIT. Definitely favours her on these. She loses to everyone else because everyone else (except Elincia? She wins anyway) doubles her. She can hit weakness on Eiri/Eph but they hammer her too badly and win accuracy/evade concerns.

Eliwood and Hector pretty much just lose to everyone, I think. Not sure how their match with each other goes, that's close. Every lord except Elincia and Ike10 hits weakness on them, most of them double (Eph doesn't double Eliwood, doesn't need to. Does double Hector). Ike10 just plain outstats them badly, again doubling Hector. Elincia has WT concerns and Stun.

Eirika doubles everyone except Lyn, which is bad news for most of 'em. Ephraim might win anyway, because Reginleif is just so brutal against Eirika... 33 might? WTF. Ike and Roy both have shots of their own, with range offsetting doubles, but Eirika is going to be dodging more than them, particularly Ike. Dunno, there. Eirika is freaky dodgy even by this group's standards.

Ike10 hammers Ike9 due to better concrete attack/defence and Nihil meaning that he gets Aether and Ike9 doesn't. Ike9's only edge is speed, and he's not doubling.

Roy beats both Ikes because he's more accurate and better at dodging by a fairly noteworthy amount. Ike9's slightly better defences don't avail him anything. Ike10... now that I think about it, maybe has the oomph his younger self lacks? Another to analyse.

Lyn is generally Eirika Jr., lacking the same kind of damage both hitting weakness and not, and having a bit less speed which likely costs her against Ike9 at the very least, and probably 10 too. Bows! ... let her beat Elincia. I think Eirika does anyway. But Lyn... mm. Still has the avoid of good and win which will, I bet, let her pull out a surprise win somewhere.

Eph is so amazing stats... best damage here except maybe Elincia, can mix up ranges if need be (his Javelins, unlike Eli/Hector's, are actually good), WTA against most of this crew meaning his avoid is pretty much Eirika level most of the time... despite getting doubled by his sister and Lyn, he strikes me as the man to beat. My money says he'll have the best record.

Elincia is weird. Way frailer than most people here, but... reasonably dodgy,  and her Stun rate is way better than Aether or Corona due to the Brave effect. Could hax her way to quite a few victories, but my gut says she's below the twins, Roy, and Ike10 for overall record at least.


Anyway, I'll start breaking down individual matches later. If anyone has one they particularly want me to do, do ask.

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Meeplelard

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2008, 04:32:08 AM »
Well, one thing I would like to bring up is how Ike10's Axes pretty much flip Ephraim's WTA thing against him.  Hurts his defense (by a relative value of 3; Swords means Eph gets +1 to his attack, while Axes mean he gets -1, so its -2 in practice, but then Ike can't use Ragnell's +5 Defense), and his Ranged counters some (goes from Ragnell's 18 Might to Forged Hand Axe's 13? This is before WTA factored in, so the difference is smaller in practice), though Forged Silver Axe out damage Ragnell, especially against Lances (+2 in practice.)

So why doesn't all that save Hector then?  Hector's Ranged Counters are somewhat worse, for starters; FE7 Hand Axe < FE10's, let alone FE10's Forged Hand Axe.  Furthermore, Ike isn't an Armored Unit, Hector is, so Eph can't Reginlief cheese Ike the way he can Hector.   Lastly, Ike's got somewhat better accuracy than Hector anyway (Leadership Bonus + Better Skill.)

Just throwing out some food for thought.

Oh, one thing I want to clear up: Was Roy's SoS Healing usable by ANY PC? I seem to recall that being brought up as a reason to not allow him it, but I could be mistaking. 
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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2008, 04:38:49 AM »
The SoS was usable as a healing item only by Roy, and usable multiple times (as long as charges remained).  Roy can't use it on anyone else either.

Not sure why people are questioning allowing it to be used to heal period or used to heal multiple times when it can be used like that in-game.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2008, 04:47:53 AM »
If Roy is allowed to use it to heal, he just... easily beats everyone. Damn. <_< He's already really high up there even without that. So wrong, considering I'd probably rank him dead last out of this group in-game.

I... hmm. The main problem with it is it's pretty much an Elixir. Only it consumes a more valuable resource. I'm generally not a fan of item-use in-battle anyway, granted.

Side note, there's a case for giving Roy a level disadvantage (and Elincia a level advantage for similar reasons), though I'm pretty sure I don't in general, and certainly am not going to start for this topic.

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Meeplelard

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2008, 04:57:56 AM »
Yeah, I...can't see Roy losing at all if you allow Healing to be used without any sort of limitation.  He heals, and wins off counters; maybe an upset or something from like Ike getting lucky on Aether before running out of HP can screw with this strategy, though not sure that OHKOs him (which is kind of a must here.)

Sword of Seals is just Hax, but we knew this.

Though, as a side note, given Roy's Luck, would it be safe to assume that he's essentially immune to Criticals, barring those from Killer Weapons (and maybe Lyn's Mani/Sol Katti)?  Naturally, this doesn't do much against Stun, Aether, or Corona (not that it matters in the latter's case; Roy murders Micaiah as is, and even Corona kicking in shouldn't be deadly), though probably doesn't matter much in those cases (think it was shown that, considering it can't kick in close range, Ike9's Aether has less chance of kicking in than Ike missing a shot vs. Roy, Ike10's Aether rate just sucks, and Elincia's probably just outstated as is.)
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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2008, 11:58:36 AM »
Easy for me.

Eirika vs. Ephraim: 2HKO vs. 3-4HKO, but doubles offset the rest.

Eirika vs. Ike9: No doubles I don't think (6AS above average vs. like 3.9), Ike's ranged counters give him the 2-1 turnsplit. Defense and damage advantage, when combined with turnsplit, should cinch it.

Ephraim vs. Ike9: Defense and counters.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 10:33:47 PM by Cryo »

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2008, 01:55:15 PM »
FE9 Ike relevant stats:
HP - 47.8 to 42.6 (112%)
Speed - 26.4 to 22.5 (117%) (doubles 99%) (doubled by 135%)
Def - 21 + 5 = 26 to 16.6 (157%)
Evade - 70.3 to 60.8
Damage - 32 to 24.8 (129%)

FE10 Ike
HP 59.7 to 54.1 (110%)
Speed - 31.3 to 29.1 (108%) (doubles 94%) (doubled by 121%)
Def - 35.2 to 24.8 (142%)
Evade - 81 to 87
Damage - 30 to 26 (115%)

As you can see, FE9 Ike beats FE10 in every. Single. Stat. Not to mention, he's got an Aether activation rate of 24% to FE10's 18%.

Now, if you add transformed Laguz with no penalties to FE9 average, or take the Laguz Royals out of the FE10 average, it would probably swing the other way; as it stands, at least going by the stat topic, FE9 is relatively better at 20/15 than FE10 is at 20/20/10.

Of course, FE10 Ike dominates in-game, since he doesn't suffer from a mild case of Roy syndrome, but the greater prevalence and ease of use of Laguz in FE10 hurts the averages, and they're both otherwise very similar at end-game.



And now that I'm reminded of Thani's boost against mounted and armor (it's a tome!), I'm once again off to change things...
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Meeplelard

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2008, 03:24:01 PM »
Um, you're using Human only averages.  Laguz still exist.  For starters, that raises average HP to 46, which puts Ike barely above average. 

In fact, all human averages are lower than Laguz Averages but Skill despite Laguz in the stat topic not being factored in a transformed state.  Don't even think Muarim was given Demi Band there.  And at very least, Muarim, Janaff and Lethe have turn 1 transformations and should be treated as such.
Meanwhile, FE10 Ike was dealing with all Laguz but Herons in Halfshift state.  If nothing else, this raises HP a fair amount cause most Laguz have high HP.

It also doesn't factor in a few other things, like say, Forging.  This would add +5 damage to all Beorc but Ike and Elincia, so Ike's damage drops considerably.  I was convinced to allow forging as well; Ragnell wasn't really that good for its raw power, as you could forget weapons STRONGER than it.  It was good for the fact that it was on par with a Forged Silver weapon AND had all its other goodies AND unbreakable, making all other weapons obsolete (especially swords.)
A few characters are furthermore nerfed in that topic.  If nothing else, Mist is using a Steel Sword, where its easy enough to get her to A in FE9 so she can Silver Sword (and...think she could use a Steel Blade ANYWAY for more damage than Steel Sword and not have a penalty.)  Also doesn't factor in stuff like Geoffrey and Astrid's Paragon (in FE9, these are unique skills that can't be transfered, hence why I'd factor them in FE9 while not in FE10, where they can be taken off and given to anyone, and should once you get the chance.), Astrid, Ike and Elincia's defense boosts from their weapons (and...I think Stefan's Vague Katti boost, though that's questionable to being allowed anyway.)

So yeah, don't jump to "Ike9 beats Ike10 in every stat!" Ike9 you used was being compared to a neutered average that doesn't factor in a good 8 PCs, at least 3 of which who can be factored in fairly easily (Muarim Janaff and Lethe have transformations from the get go.  Ranulf may as well be factored in too, since if he's attacked once, he'll tranform turn 2.) and the average is worse as a result.

ANd...FE9 Ike doesn't suffer from Roy Syndrom at all, dunno where you get that idea from.  Your PCs start promoting around Chap 17 anyway, and that's exactly where Ike promotes.  If its cause he hits level 20 early and is stuck there, that's your own fault; you shouldn't be overusing a single PC like that <_<

Also, Pyro, Eirika is 8 points above average speed when not using Siegliende.  Granted, she has to use a somewhat weaker weapon (goes from 21 effective might Siegliende to a 13 might Silver Sword or something?) but its worth noting.
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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2008, 03:34:11 PM »
Like I said, just going by what was slapped down in the stat topic, didn't look much past that. I said that I wasn't taking the FE9 Laguz into account, and I'm still a bit undecided on forged weapons, even in FE10, where they're very easy to acquire, though I don't think Ike10 wants the defense drop for a little more damage. I still hold that Ike9 is always faster, and even with Laguz taken somewhat into account, the only thing he's definitely losing to Ike10 on is HP, as the other averages shouldn't jump by too much; and I wouldn't take even the early shifting Laguz fully into account for Ike9, since they end up in human form well before you've finished most later chapters; if anything, I'd be willing to take an average with all of the Laguz assumed carrying a demi band, though it might just be that I never use Laguz without it save for the last chapter or two where I expend all my Laguz Crystal charges on my dragon.

I'd have to go do all the calculations, but considering demi band, I'd think that Ike9 would still win on everything except for having a slight HP deficit now; and if I do let Ike10 use forged Silver Swords, he gains a couple points of damage to lose a couple points of defense which, while not a problem in game where Ike is dodging all the time, and has healing support, is notable as not really changing the net effect much. The best argument I'd give for Ike10 is assuming that the fight is long enough for him to get five attacks, he's Aethering, and Ike9 is attacking from range anyways since his Aether is nulled by Ike10's Nihil ability.
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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2008, 03:35:32 PM »
Eirika vs. Eliwood
Eirika vs. Ephraim
Eirika vs. Hector
Eirika vs. Ike9
Eirika vs. Lyn
Eirika vs. Roy

Eliwood vs. Ephraim
Eliwood vs. Hector
Eliwood vs. Ike9
Eliwood vs. Lyn
Eliwood vs. Roy

Ephraim vs. Hector
Ephraim vs. Ike9
Ephraim vs. Lyn
Ephraim vs. Roy

Hector vs. Ike9
Hector vs. Lyn
Hector vs. Roy

Ike9
vs. Lyn
Ike9 vs. Roy

Lyn vs. Roy

The Meeple has forced me.

Anyway, Meeple, how is he supposed to know that THE AVERAGES IN THE TOPIC ARE WRONG? I mean, the general assumption would be that they, uh, aren't!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 04:36:27 PM by Ciato »
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Meeplelard

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2008, 04:25:44 PM »
FE9's stat topic lists 2 averages, one called "HUman Only average" even, and its not exactly ninja hidden either, since its listed right next to the other?  Seems like a pretty easy thing to figure out <_<.

And...FE10 weapons factor in forged stuff; if you factor that out, granted, most PCs can still opt for the Great weapons, barring Archers, and Mages can opt for Arc spells, which are all just a hair weaker (and less accurate) than Forged Stuff.  Not as big a deal as in FE9, basically, where its the difference of +5 (or in the case of swordsmen, only +3, thinking on it) to all Beorc.  I gave Ike Ragnell there instead of a Forged Silver Axe (which is slightly stronger) cause well, +1 Might < Range, +5 Defense and more accuracy/Crit.  Forged Silver Axe is mostly a nice boost against people like Ephraim as I noted, which gives him a better shot.
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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2008, 09:14:50 PM »
Right, forged Silver mostly for the Ephraim match... still leaning Eph there for the moment.

Anyways, with the Laguz averages, FE9 Ike is:

104% HP - Big drop!
118% Speed - Up one percentage, doubles average, doubled by 136% speed.
147% Defense - Still a tad higher than FE10.
70.3 to 60.9 Evade - Woo, average is up by a tenth of a point!
131% Damage - Slightly higher now.

So, unless the total average on the chart is off as well, and there's a tougher average lower on the page, or if there's an FE10 average that's better for Ike10... FE9 still has better stats in everything except HP, which was the only big increase in the averages. So Ike9 is still better, albeit not as much.

Of course, if I toss out forged stuff in FE10, since they're in the average, Ike10 still having Ragnell would probably make his damage much better looking... in which case, it might be Ike10's fight.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2008, 10:11:28 PM »
With Defence, bear in mind that percentage isn't what's important, but rather how high above average it is compared to average HP. To put another way, if you added 1000 to all FE9 defence scores (and 1000 to all enemy Attack stats so you can actually take damage <_<), the game would be entirely unchanged, and so would its defence curve, even though the % you calculated would change dramatically.

Yeah, once you factor forging fairly, Ike10 has more damage, and more durability, though neither by as much as I thought. Ike9 does have more speed but that's completely irrelevant unless you see that determining who goes first for some reason.

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2008, 10:34:46 PM »
Dealing with percentages is mostly just a way to avoid the annoyance of subtraction-based defense, though I get the example well enough.

The speed could matter for evasion, though... I think they're both pretty awesome on accuracy.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2008, 01:56:39 AM »
Okay, done the preliminary stat work for FE9. Bunch of things assumed, consistent with the FE10 topic or otherwise agreed on (all laguz are Demi Banded, actual in-game enemy defences of 15/13 instead of the original's 10/10, Astrid/Geoffrey are Level 20/20, weapons forged for might, things like Ragnell/Amiti stat boosts actually included in average). It's not ready to be presented in a stat topic yet, but this will suffice for now:

Stat | Ike | Average
HP | 47.8 | 46.1
Speed | 26.4 | 22.6
Defence | 26.0 | 18.4
Resist | 15.0 | 14.8
Evade* | 70.3 | 62.0
Damage | 27.0 | 23.1
Hit | 146 | 145

*Taken against 140 hit (typical boss range, consistent with taking 125 for the GBA games): 18.4% real.

The one thing that jumped out at me is that he's not especially accurate at all (and this is -without- considering forging for Hit), contrary to hype. Both his Skill and Luck are actually above average by less than a point. But yeah, even with the defence average rising he's better than I thought he was there, if not as good as in FE10. Damage... FE9 does actually win, but it's fractional, they're basically equal.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 04:42:29 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2008, 05:07:30 PM »
Okay, going to start on this. In-depth analysis, so it'll be slow.

Assumptions: FE6-8 enemy hit taken as 125, FE9 as 140, FE10 as 165. Weapon triangle is taken as the avearge of its effects between games. Weapon triangle does exist. Ike10 and Elincia get their authority boosts; without those they lose a few more matches I think. Will add notes on that later.

Eirika vs. Elincia: Eirika 2HKOs, and doubles. Both are melee, so after their first combat exchange, Elincia is dead. All she can do is pray for Stun... and first turn Stun is yeah no.
Eirika vs. Eliwood: Eirika 3HKOs with the Rapier (30 damage), and doubles. Eliwood 3HKOs back at best, and accuracy/evade concerns favour Eirika even if Eliwood goes for a lance.
Eirika vs. Ephraim: Eirika doubles with the Rapier, doing 27x2 damage, a 3HKO to average and 4HKO to Eph. Eph uses Reginleif for 50 damage, 2HKOing soundly. Which means both two-round each other, but Ephraim's two-rounding always happens first, since Eirika needs a double to finish hers. Eirika evade to the rescue? Hardly. Weapon triangle + Eph's accuracy take 27 points out of her evade, reducing its real value to 19%. Ephraim's is only slightly worse. I'm not going to consider that to tilt this match.
Eirika vs. Hector: Axes do not hit Eirika, that doesn't even warrant examination. With a sword, Hector can... 3HKO while being solidly three-rounded (5HKOed) back (Rapier), since he lacks Armads' defensive boost, and still faces someone who evades over half his attacks.
Eirika vs. Ike9: This one is crazy. Okay. Eirika only doubles if she's not weighed down. This means she's falling back on a Killing Edge. That can't crit. Still her best option. 18x2 = 36 damage = kills Ike in six hits. Ike, meanwhile, 3HKOs back. Doubles offset counters. However, Eirika, when she drops Sieglinde to not be weighed down, has 65% evade. Ike drops this to 63, but it's still crazy. If Ike goes first, he needs to hit three times in six attempts... 40% chance. Now, granted, the times he fails to do this he still gets an average of 1.5 hits, 0.75 of those on average at melee, so he -could- activate Aether to tilt things... but then we consider the possibility that Eirika goes first, which should tilt things back. Eirika does miss Ike about 5% of the time (25% total chance of a miss or so), but this is less significant than Eirika going first, and the match was already swinging by a hair. The tiebreaker to me? I don't respect occult skills activating on the first hit or two, just like I don't respect FE crits doing the same thing. But damn, excellent match.
Eirika vs. Ike10: I may have underrated Ike10's most important advantage, at least in FE vs. FE matches: 14 points above average accuracy. i.e. hey Eirika only dodges a third of the time now, instead of nearly two thirds. Now, granted, she gets a damage by having access to Sieglinde, but she's still only 5HKOing. And Ike can hit her three times out of four when she's weighed down no problem. If she tries to scrounge up those extra points of evade, then she's down to 7HKOing against someone still way more accurate than Ike9. That ain't working.
Eirika vs. Lyn: Eirika 2HKOs Lyn. Lyn does not 2HKO Eirika. Not even with Mani Katti. Nothing else is going to tilt this, but if you need any more evidence, Sieglinde is more accurate than Mani Katti and Silver Sword both by a notable amount, and Sol Katti gets Lyn doubled.
Eirika vs. Micaiah: Thani hurts, but Eirika 2HKOs and doubles. Micaiah may well win if she goes first, but there's a good argument for her going second (Eirika has a horse, Micaiah has mage move) and as always, evade/accuracy concerns are going to favour Eirika too.
Eirika vs. Roy: Roy has 37 points above average accuracy. Yeah. I was stunned too. Anyway, it means Eirika kinda fails at dodging him. She can use Sieglinde and still double, and she 4HKOs since Roy's only as durable as Ike9, not Ike10. But Roy is 3HKOing, range offsets doubles, and Eirika's evade against him with Sieglinde is 6%. Ouch.

Defeating Eirika without good accuracy is a tough prospect.

Elincia vs. Eliwood: Ouch, didn't see this one coming. Anyway, both Eliwood and Elincia 2HKO each other, and lances mean that accuracy/evade concerns are... similar. Now, 2HKO means both want the other to attack first (whoever does so tends to lose). Eliwood however, can attack first with a Javelin, counter with a Javelin, then finish with either Slim Sword (if both Javelins hit) or Durandal (if one hit) for the kill. Odds are only 16% of him missing both Javeilns, and ~15% of missing the killing blow with Durandal (less with Slim) so looks like he wins. Not hyping Stun on one attack, get used to this.
Elincia vs. Ephraim: Good news for Elincia: she narrowly avoids a double! Bad news, Ephraim can pull the same stunt with Javelins Eliwood can. And outright 2HKO with them. And he's way more accurate, and more evasive. Yeah.
Elincia vs. Hector: Okay, finally. Hector can use Armads and still not be doubled (barely), but then he hits less than half the time. He does 2HKO, but Elincia is, by her second attack, going to activate Stun, which is like the damage of a bonus attack, then avoids a counter, then Hector doesn't attack next turn... so it's like three bonus attacks. She'll have five attacks before Hector gets two, and that's almost all the way to killing him. Gets even worse if she gets a Stun chain going. Point is, Hector's not winning. Hand Axe tricks are of no help since they hit approximately never, unlike Javelins. Yay weapon triangle and Hector skill. Honestly, his best bet is to 2HKO with an Iron Sword, which is more accurate... but he's still losing accuracy/evade concerns by a notable amount.
Elincia vs. Ike9: Ike9 doubles, and dodges counters himself. So Elincia attacks once, then Ike attacks four times. He's 2HKOing. Elincia doesn't dodge over half the time. It's not a pretty picture.
Elincia vs. Ike10: This time, Ike doesn't double! On the other hand, 14 above average hit makes Elincia's evade 13%, which I ain't hypin'. So Ike just counters and smashes on his own turn.
Elincia vs. Lyn: Ouch, 2HKOs and doubles with a bow. Elincia's more accurate than bow-Lyn, but Lyn's more evasive, and it roughly cancels. Should be Lyn's match as a result.
Elincia vs. Micaiah: A use for Elincia's Res! (Whereas Micaiah, whose res is o_O, never gets one in this entire set. Lame.) Elincia staves off a 2HKO, so she attacks, gets countered, gets attacked, and kills. Nosferatu doesn't help since that second attack is probably carrying Stun.
Elincia vs. Roy: See Elincia vs. Ike10, only this time, Elincia's evade is down to like, 1% or something.

Kinda disappointing, but Elincia does get spoiled a lot by counters, thinking on it (if she's just getting 2HKOed by people going first, she can use a staff for awesome regen). Not to mention all the silly accurate people.

Eliwood vs. Ephraim: Reginleif 2HKOs, Eliwood doesn't, Eliwood does nothing better than Eph. Yawn.
Eliwood vs. Hector: Godliness. All right. Hector probably doesn't want Armads due to that getting him doubled. He can use Wolf Beil and barely 2HKO, but that means his hit is 22 below average (70% Eli evade). Eliwood meanwhile can Rapier for a 5HKO, and will always hit, so that should win. Alternatively, Hector can go for swords again... hmm. Alternatively, Hector can pick up a Slim Sword and 4HKO with that. This drops Eli's damage slightly, and now he only has 13% evade.
Eliwood vs. Ike9: Well uh Eliwood's 0.4 above average speed means Ike doesn't double! If Eliwood weren't weighed down by Javelins... as is, oh well. His best bet is probably a (no-crit) Killer Lance, which sounds similar to the Eirika situation. WTA gets him to avoiding every other attack, which exactly cancels Ike's attacking from range. Not near good enough.
Eliwood vs. Ike10: As above. Eliwood still gets doubled with a Javelin (Silver Lance is safe if you allow it), and his evade is now worse.
Eliwood vs. Lyn: Eliwood 2HKOs with Durandal (and with... good borderline accuracy to hit twice), Lyn 3HKOs and doubles with Mani Katti, so... hmm. Actually this is familiar, Elincia match redux. Accuracy/evade concerns favouring Lyn, but can Eliwood try his Javelin stunt again? If he does, Lyn double Silver Bows him to avoid WTD, then Durandal for the kill, then Mani Katti to complete the 3HKO. Eliwood's hit rates, again needing only one Javelin: 39%, 17%, 66% = 1/3 chance of getting what he needs. Lyn has hit rates of 85% on the other hand. Good fight, but Lyn evade carries the day.
Eliwood vs. Micaiah: Micaiah mocks Eliwood evade and isn't doubled, while easily 2HKOing with Thani. Eliwood's only hope is to try a Javelin and make it a "who 2HKOs first" match, except then he massively loses acc/evade concerns.
Eliwood vs. Roy: I think Teo McDohl had some quote about this.

Oh well, Eliwood, at least you killed Elincia. And the fights against the fellow FE7 lords were close!

Ephraim vs. Hector: Good stuff. Hector's getting doubled, so he equips Armads, gives up his last shred of evade, and 3HKOs while being a supertank. That plus WTA means he's basically gotten past Eph's evade, though Eph still dodges more than he does. Eph doubles, though, and... kills in either five or six? If six, advantage Hector, if five advantage Eph. Eh. This is, admittedly weirdly close, but Reginleif can be argued to have a defence-piercing property when hitting weakness, so... yeah. Inclined to tiebreak that way at worst.
Ephraim vs. Ike9: WTA means Ike hits less than half the time, which more than offsets counters. And Eph 3HKOs while Ike 4HKOs to boot. Javelin strategies are possible, but not needed.
Ephraim vs. Ike10: Eph's evade is down to 36% or so, and he now misses the 3HKO. This makes things pretty tough, since Ike is now getting 6-7 attacks which is easily enough. Eph can retreat to Javelins (x4) and then finish with Siegmund, leaving Ike with either four or five attacks... which still favours Ike. Before silliness involving Aether.
Ephraim vs. Lyn: Lyn can, to her credit, double with the Mani Katti for damage that... might just 4HKO, even. Too bad Eph 2HKOs and reduces her evade to 13%.
Ephraim vs. Micaiah: Doubles with Siegmund. The end! No, Nosferatu damn well does not let her survive a double, she's borderline OHKOed.
Ephraim vs. Roy: Eph can 3HKO with Siegmund, but Roy has counters on that and he... basically never misses. Damn, Roy's accuracy is Wakka-like. So Javelin x3 -> Siegmund? That actually works decently well, both now 4HKO. But... after WTA, Eph's evade is 6% and Roy's is 25% due to Javelins being unimpressive. Victory to Roy on average.

Ranged swords with high accuracy trumps even Eph, it seems. Damn, I was pulling for him to sweep, even though I didn't really think it would happen. *unwinds time four months, hypes Eph as sweeping the FE lords released in NA games at least!*

Hector vs. Ike9: Well, Ike doubles and counters (Hand Axe isn't happening against a swordsman), so Hector equips Armads and hopes for the best. This isn't... toooo bad a fight, even? Hector is 3HKOing, Ike is... 10HKOing or so? Still, swordsman means Ike probably dodges Hector once in there, and is likely winning even if he doesn't.
Hector vs. Ike10: Well, if Hector's not weighed down here, he won't be doubled. That means no Armads though, so the two are... pretty comparable on durability now, and Ike is still attacking twice as often. With accuracy concerns on his side. Yeah.
Hector vs. Lyn: Mani Katti vs. Armads: Lyn does 54 damage a round, probably five-rounding or so, though crits could be a factor to make it four. Hector 2HKOs, but has troubling hitting. A lot of trouble, less than 25% of the time. That's not going to work. The other option is the SLIM SWORD, but now Lyn kills in three rounds. Hector also kills in three, but he's still missing a third of the time or so. Pretty much Eliwood vs. Hector redux, only this time Eliwood is doubling.
Hector vs. Micaiah: Neither doubles, Micaiah has range and 2HKOs. Only way Hector can match this is with a Hand Axe, but this gives Micaiah a large evade advantage (and both 2HKO each other).
Hector vs. Roy: See Ike10, only with more evade to give Hector even more problems.

Yeah no surprises there. Losing weapon triangle, hit/evade, and AS concerns tends to offset the insane physical durability. Still kinda surprising that the most physically durable lord would get only two wins in eight physical contests.

Ike9 vs. Ike10: Too lazy to calculate if Ike10 actually needs an extra hit to be killed, because it doesn't matter. He definitely has better accuracy, and an 18% melee Aether rate still trumps 0. So at worst the non-concrete favours him, too.
Ike9 vs. Lyn: Lyn dodges every other attack, Ike counters. Offsetting each other! Still, Lyn kills in way more attacks. She'd win easily with 1 more speed (since Silver Bow is >>> Killing Edge for non-AS-lowered Atk); as is, too bad.
Ike9 vs. Micaiah: Doubles whee. And 2HKOs. At isn't 2HKOed. Yeah.
Ike9 vs. Roy: See on site! Basically, Ike9 misses the evasive Roy a bunch, which is way more important than Aether.

Pretty middle of the road. Ranged counters are really cool, as is doubling average. He's not especially good at anything else, but not bad either. Eliwood++ really, really fits.

Ike10 vs. Lyn: See Eirika vs. Ike10, only now Ike10 2HKOs.
Ike10 vs. Micaiah: Doubles. If Micaiah attacks first he counters and wins. If Ike attacks first she uses Nosferatu to survive, then on her own turn kills with Thani (simply because it's more accurate). So the question is, what could cause this NOT to happen? Both have pretty negligible evade against each other (at best, Ike10 has 12.5% evade against the Nos shot). Neither can crit. If Ike is forced to go first, he gets to melee, and has two chances for 18% Aether while Micaiah has one 30% Corona (=30% overall to win, plus some evade). If Micaiah goes first... 30% Corona, but Ike still may hit at least twice in the three tries he gets before Micaiah gets her finishing counter in, so less than 30%. Yeah, on average favours Ike... BARELY. Why is the match between one of the best and one of the worst so close? Wait, Nihil. Forgot that~
Ike10 vs. Roy: Roy still has a bit 20% evade or so, though not what he's used to. Roy doesn't miss. Ike kills in four, Roy kills in five. Roy actually crits (12%, boosted by Ike's Luck to 17 or so), Ike Athers on his own attacks 18%. I... yeah, going to vote Roy. Roy wins... hmm. 60% of the time if he gets the fifth attack in, but only 20% if Ike does. Before crits, which... granted tilt things back his way, but not enough + I don't respect crits much so I won't calculate to be certain. Obviously letting Roy heal would completely let him dominate here.

Really set up to crush other FE characters. Enough speed to not be doubled by those with remotely comparable physical durability, and enough hit to give the dodge whores some problems. Even has Nihil!

Lyn vs. Micaiah: Doubles with a Silver Bow, Micaiah could easily miss the Nosferatu she needs to survive. If it hits, she likely misses her next shot, and the process repeats next round.
Lyn vs. Roy: Too easy.

Lyn's pretty much Eirika minus a few things which add up. The biggest one is damage. Silver Bow is a nice option, though.

Micaiah vs. Roy: Oh hey Roy's Res fucking rules.

Micaiah's neat. I look forward to seeing her in the DL. Didn't get to use her OMGWTFBROKEN magic durability here, but it did exploit her flaws otherwise. Nosferatu is still cool.

Roy... kinda expected him to sweep. He's generally speaking Ike9 with crazy accuracy and good evade, so if Ike9 is Eliwood++, then Roy must be Eliwood++++? Something like that. Definitely the best overall dueller here, since this field didn't let him show off his excellent magical durability, something the other modest physical spoilers like. Really thinking he might be Godlike. Unquestionably is if you let him heal. Roy's our boy, I guess.

Done! Yeah.

Ike10 9-0
Roy 8-1
Ephraim 7-2
Eirika 6-3
Ike9 5-4
Lyn 4-5
Elincia 2-7
Micaiah 2-7
Hector 1-6
Eliwood 1-6


Offhand, Ike10 without his +15 hit/avoid loses to Eirika, Ephraim, Roy, and Micaiah. This drops him to roughly Ike9's level. Which... makes sense!

Elincia without her +15 hit/avoid possibly to Hector? Not sure.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 05:54:27 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2008, 05:56:57 AM »
Finished analysing all the matches. That was fun. <.< Feel like I have a much better handle on all of them as duellers, now, too.

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2008, 07:05:01 AM »
Wanna take a stab at analyzing the team match up there NEB?
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2008, 03:17:16 PM »
You're a crazy elf. >_>
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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2008, 03:53:03 PM »
Hmm...should I hold another FE topic akin to this, what should I do next?  I wanna say Cavalier/Paladins but...uhh...we have 7 in FE6 alone and then there's the stuff like "Does Duessel and Amelia" count and all that...

But I'm open to suggestions!
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Re: Fire Emblem Matchups: Lords!
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2008, 08:27:01 PM »
Assassins are a much more exclusive group; between FE6-10, there are only 7. The thing is, it won't be as fun; Lords was fun because of the variety among them, while all assassins are basically the same.

How about main villains? Zephiel, Nergal, Lyon, Ashnard, *spoiler boss*/Lekain. And "true final bosses" like Idoun, the Fire Dragon, Fomortiis, uh... crazy Ashnard, and *spoiler boss*
Anyways, I need to get around to FE10; probably will have to wait till college, since I'm hoping to room with a friend who has a Wii and the game.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 02:35:08 PM by Ultradude »
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