VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

[QuietRain]

Anyway...my role PM does not state that there is a limit on the number of times I can do this, only that I cannot prevent my own lynching. If we do wish to go ahead with me revoking the day-ending lynch, I'd propose that we use OK as the test subject. Concensus seems to be that we use a lurker for the end of the day anyway, and he's definitely the poster-boy for not posting right now.

So it didn't say that we would see the flip, just that you would prevent a lynch?  I fail to see how this helps us, then. 

If it does not reveal the flip, could you explain the usefulness of the ability other than as a resource for you to use if you explicitly believe someone to be town and the majority votes to lynch them anyway?

If it does reveal the flip, then I can certainly see the use for it.  Although I'd be hopping mad if said save was a thwarted Sabbat scum lynch.  *grin*

[Luther Lansfeld]

I don't really think it's a very helpful role, but it is a power that is usually in the hands of town, and him using it would most likely clear him, since he shows that he has a townie power, even if it's not too helpful.

[Luther Lansfeld]

VSM:  Neither Alex nor myself voted against the extension!  Alex said he would if he could at one point, apparently forgetting that he could, but in the end neither of us put down anti-votes.  The problem with everyone voting Extend right off the bat on principle (which is what happened) is that there's not a really good reason for it.  Having high pressure to get the issue settled isn't a bad thing, and I don't think wanting more time is automatically pro-town.  If he let us extend it to week-long days, would you vote for that?  By Cid's reasoning, surely you would if you were a townie, because a week of discussion is much more than a day of discussion, and more discussion helps town!  This is bogus, though, because we don't NEED that much time.  We can put out high-content posts, make decisions, and vote much faster than that, and we SHOULD be doing so, and the people who aren't doing so stick out to me right now.  A noncommittal and essentially time-wasting attitude is a popular one for scum, since it means they can essentially lurk without appearing to lurk.

This is just such ridiculous overblowing of the statement. Wanting a day extention WHEN IT IS OFFERED and likely needed due to half-days =/= wanting a freaking week to vote. Feh. I completely disagree that scum wants longer days, anyway. Actually, I think you're acting pretty ridiculous in general over this. I'm not sure why you two are so damn adamant about this but I find it highly weird. Otter just seems to be trying to twist things, and I don't like it one bit.

##VOTE: Otter

[Lady Door]

1.

Argh, you people.  If there was such a thing as antivoting extensions, I would do it.   This is more than enough time for day 1's, especially since discussion is already chugging away. 

REMEMBER

DEADLINES ARE THERE TO HELP THE GAME KEEP MOVING

NOT TO SET A LENGTH ON DAYS.

TOWN SHOULD REACH LYNCH CONSENSUS WELL BEFORE DEADLINES, NOT SEEK TO MAXIMIZE TIME USED PER DAY.
The DL in general keeps getting into this mindset of lynching as close to deadline as possible, vigging in the middle of the deadline day, etc.  Stop it.  Seriously.  Cast votes and come to a decision on who to lynch/vig.  It really does not take that much time when we actually do it rather than sitting around and waiting for other things to happen.  Rat should vig when there's a reasonable consensus on whom to kill.

One of the few things that disturbs me more than this is El Cid making the extension a scum/town political issue for this game, threatening Excal and voting Otter over it.  This is the most significant development so far, aside from Rat's claim, and I'm not liking it at all.  The whole business of extensions and timeframes shouldn't be politicized into a specific game, especially not this one where we've got a double lynch and an instant jump to serious votes.  This strikes me as a more likely initial scum position than anything else so far.

##Unvote: Corwin
##Vote: El Cid 

2.

Shale's second post there answers his first as to why I'm not objecting.  I can see which way the wind's blowing on this one, and schedules are indeed a valid point.  I'd just like to break the habit of everyone sitting back until deadlines are nearly upon them - which itself results in all serious discussion taking place within the last hours to deadline, and isn't a terribly good thing for town, either, despite appearances.  It is best to ignore deadlines altogether and make decisions in a timely fashion.

3.

Re:  Deadline behavior.  So, day 3 in Touhou.  At the start of the day, I played the good little townie and warned everyone to use their time wisely and don't dally till you hit two deadline crunches.  Town proceeded to do exactly that.  First deadline crunch was minor but there.  When I woke up after the QR vig and saw Corwin on the block, I was sure he was a goner, but the lynch on him just wasn't pressed, wasn't hammered, and we got some time to turn it back around and cast doubt on Nitori.  And sure enough the second deadline crunch hit and we managed to push through the lynch on the real doctor.  Town's behavior with regards to deadlines and timing and hammering lynches was pretty much directly responsible for letting Cor momentarily slip off the gallows.  Happy time for scum, though promptly ruined that night, but that's a story for another time.

4.

Town does win via discussion, but this should not be confused with "Well let's make every game day a week/month/Mafiascum.net so we discuss thoroughly!"  There just isn't a need for it, past a certain point the game drags and people get into the habit of procrastinating and not taking action as well as discussing things.  And I have said this in every game I've played in, plus the ones I've modded, and yelled it at the ones I haven't done either in.  Loudly.  Soooo... not sure where VSM's coming from there.  I'm not anti-discussion, I'm pro-action.  </Super Tuesday madness>

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1. "The DL in general keeps getting into this mindset of lynching as close to deadline as possible, vigging in the middle of the deadline day, etc.  Stop it.  Seriously.  Cast votes and come to a decision on who to lynch/vig.  It really does not take that much time when we actually do it rather than sitting around and waiting for other things to happen.  Rat should vig when there's a reasonable consensus on whom to kill."

We CAN request an extension, though. And given that we have two lynches I think this will be wise to do- even though it's day 1.

##Time Extension (this is the final lap!)

EDIT: ninja'd by the Rat.  I sort of agree that more time could be useful in this situation since we have to divide it between two lynches, but I also think the brief time limit could work in our favor.  It forces everyone to snap to action and I think this slightly more brutal game style could help town out.  I'll mention, however, that as we approach the Rat-lynch deadline, it may be the case that a few more hours will seem really helpful and desired and in that case I will vote to extend.  Until and unless that becomes the case, though, I'd just as soon stick with the short days.  Don't take more time for granted.

At 6.5 hours into the game, as US timezones hit 12:30-3:30AM and, presumably, more silence from those who haven't yet chimed in (10/15 have at this point, 3 of which have only 1 post, 7ish of which are still joke-vote):

Presumably, this is where the time extension comes in. So what the hell, ##Time Extension.

Up until this post that Alex makes, those in favor of extension have cited several specific reasons why this Day 1 in this game should warrant a time extension. Even among those who vote against it or do not vote, who do cite reasons similar to Alex's fear of the forum generally pushing to deadline no matter how long it is, there is acknowledgment that there might be good reasons to do it this time.

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2.

Shale's second post there answers his first as to why I'm not objecting.  I can see which way the wind's blowing on this one, and schedules are indeed a valid point.  I'd just like to break the habit of everyone sitting back until deadlines are nearly upon them - which itself results in all serious discussion taking place within the last hours to deadline, and isn't a terribly good thing for town, either, despite appearances.  It is best to ignore deadlines altogether and make decisions in a timely fashion.

Also, personally I want an extension because it would avoid the entire serious portion of the day taking place between when I went to sleep last night and when I get home from work this evening. With the day 1 startup time factored in, you're talking about a "day" less than 24 hours long, which means people's schedules start to seriously impact if they can participate at all. That's not an idea I like.

This has a bit of 'me too' in it, but I really think an extension for this particular day 1 should be considered on its own merits, Alex. The day is shorter than the others, we needed some time to get used to the idea of reaching a decision much earlier due to dayvig, etc. Yes, that may not be the best way to play mafia, but are you seriously expecting a complete change in public opinion over the course of a single game? With 72 hours, we get roughly 36 hours of daylight per segment, which is quite enough time for a post, response, and post back between wacky US/Oz/my timezones. Less than that, and any serious discussion would likely be one-sided, with people from one single timezone and freaks that can't fall asleep commenting and having the last word.

Those two posts occur in between 1 and 2.

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3. Reference to another game. This is where I really start to feel weird about Alex's insistence on his point, because between 2 and 3, the only posts mentioning the deadline issue agree with him.

And for the record, I also agree VERY strongly with Fluffytails that waiting on a deadline is innane.  We need to focus our conversations better and start getting our lynches in order much more early in each "day".  The more we drag things out, the more chances we give to scum to obfuscate and to fabricate.

Alex, we can subtract Extension votes with anti-votes.  I'm personally kind of put out by the overwhelming "Let's vote Extend first, while sort of sitting around waiting for our extra time to come around so we can make the decision right at the end again" attitude because, as I've already said, we need to hammer before freakin' deadline or we lose our lynch and that is unacceptable.  Even more to the point, there are people who stand out already, for lurking if nothing else.  I'm not anti-voting right now because I sort of see Shale's point about the first "day" being less than 24 hours for people who didn't know it started or something, but we cannot make "Hmm, okay, nothing's going on, let's vote Extend to put it off till later" a habit.

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4. There's some serious unnecessary drama here. No one's asked for a game day that lasts a week or longer. People have repeatedly said why there's a need for it for this Day 1, which he hasn't responded to. The only people who say ANYTHING about the deadline in this period are Andrew and El Cideon.

While using most of the alloted time can be a good move, arbitrarily waiting until the end of the day, especially on days like day one, is silly and, most importantly, it makes defensive roleclaims very difficult, because not only might you not be able to actually get them off/do anything about it, but you also run the risk of hitting the deadline because you can't reorganize a train. Add in the conflicting schedules and it just gets worse. No votes are bad. Losing out on roleclaims is bad.

Again, this does not benefit Town. Town wins by talking every subject to death. Can you not understand why I would get suspicious when I see someone acting in a way that I perceive as being detrimental to thorough discussion? Now, if Otter's intent was simply to convince us to compress the discussion and get our usual meandering done in half the time? All I can say is that perhaps others here have more faith than I do in our capability to actually be that coordinated.

Emphasis: no one's said anything about using extension more than once (though I admit that El Cideon seems to be pushing for maximum discussion which alludes to the idea that he'd want longer days in general) or asking for another extension on day 1 or anything. In fact, all the extension has done is make Day 1 72 hours like the rest of the days in the game are.

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Going to post this and continue in another because I sense this is getting ridiculously long, and it's only getting longer.

[Lady Door]

... Then I chime in and get on Alex's case for repeatedly attacking El Cideon and setting up a straw man. The former wasn't really valid; El Cideon said and did some weird things that warranted discussion. The straw man, however? I stand by that. Alex seems to be responding to the air every time he brings up his reasons for disliking extension, especially since he continues to draw it in after the irrevocable extension has already passed.

Yes, El Cideon refers to the votes on the extension issue as a basis for his votes. This is a valid criticism. However, when trying to hammer the point about El Cid's vote, Alex goes off on a tangent and talks again about how waiting until deadline and avoiding deadline is bad. ... I find it completely unrelated because, as I've cited above, there are people who have agreed with Alex's general stance but also explained why this case is and has been different.

His response to my initial post against him made me frown:

LadyDoor is also stating that I am suspicious for saying the same thing over and over.  I find that taking a definite statement on issues and having a continued presence in discussion is the best course of action for all townies.  In other words, uh, what would you prefer me to do, lurk and say nothing, or contradict myself?

I said it in my rebuttal so I won't bother rehashing it, but suffice to say that this smarmy response didn't do a thing to convince me he wasn't setting up a misdirection. Quite the contrary. My equally smarmy response apparently fell flat because Otter called me out on it and tagged it with a vague threat. No such reaction for Alex?


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And then you actually change gear completely with this.

That's my beef with Sir Alex. It's NOT about extension as a concept. It's about extension as a means to help us make the most of Day 1 and this dayvig power. That is why I cited those other people -- they've all made that distinction after a fashion. That's why I keep frowning at Alex -- every time he posted, he made it sound as if a vote for extension was stupid on the basis that "more time = more waffling/indecision/procrastinating." I'm all for someone deciding that they don't like extension. Awesome. What I don't like is when discussion moves past the general into the specific -- in this case, why this Day 1 in particular is a great candidate for extension -- but one person stays back in the realm of general without acknowledging that this case might be different (or why it's not).

So... are you attacking Alex because he set up a straw man? Because he's been too forceful? Because you don't like where he stands on the extension thing, which shouldn't actually be an issue but is anyway? I don't know anymore. I'm going to ask you to reiterate your argument again. And until you do, I'll be here. ##Unvote, ##Vote: LadyDoor

... I... must be an extremely unclear writer. The answers to those questions are in that exact passage you just quoted at me. I attacked Alex because he set up a straw man, as I established in the post prior to this one. I attacked Alex because he propped up his straw man and put a shiny hat on it (see 4). I said right there: "What I don't like is when discussion moves past the general into the specific ... but one person stays back in the realm of general." I don't care that he's anti-extension. It's passed already, for one. For two? There are other people that were anti-extension that I didn't jump on. That is not and never was the issue for me. The "litmus test" was El Cideon's argument, and Alex's against him, not mine.

Is that clear now?

[Corwin]

To be entirely fair, LD, I allowed for the possibility of using other extensions as needed, though I never actually called for it or claimed it was a particularly bright or necessary idea. Again, it wasn't anything specific, so I suppose it could have easily been missed.

On Cid and the roleclaim. I agree with Otter that letting go of the end-of-day lurker lynch to test Cid's claim is the better option for us. Perhaps I have missed it, but did Cid specifically state that his power works like in the wiki (ie lynch overturned, no flip), or is that QR's own conclusion from his words? If the latter, I would like to hear a clarification from Cid.

I can certainly understand why Cid claimed. He was largely tied with Alex at the time, and Rat said both that he would break the tie in Cid's favor, and specifically asked for Cid to roleclaim (in his defense). With a claimed dayvig power and a stated desire to vig Cid, why wouldn't he claim at this time while he still can? If Rat lied about the dayvig to get a roleclaim out of Cid (and other people?) then when he doesn't use his power, we lynch him. If Cid lied about being able to undo an end-of-day lynch (and at day 1 there's no chance of a roleblock barring total madness), we lynch him. I just don't see the point in lying, here, and everything is quite easily checked, and at a pretty low cost to town. However things go, this would surely be a more productive day 1 to town in quite a while.

Anyway, no one really picked apart my arguments, and I did say I'd vote before Rat's deadline. I would have already done so if he hadn't gone wishy-washy 'one time daykill extension' on us, but might as well do it now. This is likely to be my final vote for the rest of this segment of day 1 due to timezone/sleep issues that have been mentioned to death already (though I should be good for a few more hours if discussion picks up about my reasons for the vote).

##Vote: Alex

You look the scummiest to me. I've given myself time to reflect on my arguments, and have read those of others and the defense of your own actions so far. I have decided the evidence against you is more compelling.

[QuietRain]

On Cid and the roleclaim. I agree with Otter that letting go of the end-of-day lurker lynch to test Cid's claim is the better option for us. Perhaps I have missed it, but did Cid specifically state that his power works like in the wiki (ie lynch overturned, no flip), or is that QR's own conclusion from his words? If the latter, I would like to hear a clarification from Cid.

To clarify, that was my own conclusion because he had not specified on that issue yet.   I am actually hopeful it's not the case.  A free flip without death is NOT a bad thing for town.  It seems more than a little brokenated, though, so I won't pin my hopes on it.

[Corwin]

No more broken than an unlimited dayvig in a medium-sized game, I'd say. But sure, let's wait on Cid to post about this.

[Sierra]

I wasn't told that we'd get a flip when I used the power, no, and I'd be very surprised if we did because that would be quite a broken role indeed. I'll PM the mods and ask for clarification, but the textbook Governor merely prevents the lynch without telling you what you would've learned from it.

It's not a particularly useful role, no. I certainly can't think of a situation where it would turn the tide (maybe if there was a Mason lodge going and one needed to save the other, but that's a purely hypothetical situation. This is day one and that sure as hell isn't happening here). It does, however, have the advantage of being a role that's almost universally a town power and is easy to demonstrate, assuming we don't mind giving up our lynch tonight. If I don't do what I say I can, I'm pretty clearly dead tomorrow. Cut and dry situation. Whether it's worth the trade is up to you lot.

[Ranmilia]

All right, I'm back.  And this looks very uncool.  I really didn't want to do this, since it will remove pretty much any hope of good coming from my role, but here we go.

I am the Seneschal, a Kindred of clan Ventrue.  Currently, I have no powers.  However, if the Prince should happen to die in some fashion, I will inherit the title and associated powers.  In other words, I'm the backup dayvig and will take over if Rat dies.

As Andrew says, I have indeed brushed off the possibility of Rat being antitown, because of my own role and the lack of anyone counterclaiming Prince.  Barring a truly epic act of bastard modding which I don't think is worth consideration, my role confirms (to me) that the Prince is town and has a power that I'll get if/when he dies.

Obviously, dayvig is a great power, and provable should Rat die while I live.  The fact that there *is* a backup for the dayvig, though, makes me wary of scum's killing potential. 

----

Regarding Cid's claim, I am not at all in favor of governating a lynch.  Dayvig + lynch = townkills, more townkills = good.  The claim and willingness is enough to make me take my vote off him, though I still heavily disagree with many of his statements.

##Unvote: El Cid

The next most suspicious folks to me are LadyDoor, and Otter, plus the lurkers (yes, now is the time to start on them).

LadyDoor's arguments have been confusing and extremely poor to my mind from the getgo.  I admit I still don't comprehend what she means with the specific/general stuff.  The only clear thing I can pick up from her posts is that it is about the extension and she is politicizing it, which is bad. 

Otter, as others have pointed out, has taken some rather eyebrow-raising me-too stances in the game to date, his jump to the Cid train being the most glaring.  All of his substantial arguments have been safe, generic townie talk, which is how he (and I) often play scum.  In rereading the topic now, the case on him doesn't seem as strong as I thought when I was turning over memories in class today, so I dunno.

The lurkers... there are many.  Andrew's prodding me, and perhaps rightfully, on only picking out a couple of them, so here's the whole list of people I feel have not contributed much/enough to date, in roughly descending order of lurkiness:
CPU/Drac (obviously, some extenuating circumstances here)
OK
Smodge
Ciato
Andrew
Shale.

Unsurprisingly, all of these folks have claimed out of game reasons for not doing much. 

Going to read further (large posts while I've been gone).  My vote at present is wavering mostly towards Otter.

[Ranmilia]

Hmmkay.  Regarding dayvig timing, I strongly disagree with setting an unbreakable deadline for it, especially one in the exact middle of a day period.  I feel that vigging and lynching should both occur when there's a strong consensus on whom to kill.  Nobody should ever be vigged before they have a reasonable chance to claim, same as with lynching.  Keyword here is reasonable, of course.  Deadlines should exist to make sure discussion doesn't drag, to be sure, but as Cor rightfully pointed out this conflicts with allowing ample time for discussion to actually occur.  A balance should be struck between the extremes. 

[Shale]

Okay, back now. Tuesday/early Wednesday is a bad 24 hours for me to play Mafia, I hope that's become clear by now. Reading what I've missed.

[Otter]

If my jump to the Cid train was the most eyebrow-raising thing I've done so far in this game, I'd say I'm doing pretty well.  There was a -reason- that train was forming (namely, Cid was voting based on Extension decisions), and as Alex points out often, day 1 requires trains or it doesn't go anywhere.

I disagree with Alex when he says that Cid shouldn't have to use his power to prove himself.  Being confident in his claim and his apparent willingness is fine, but that doesn't prove a thing, and Governor is a great bluff claim if you don't think town will ask you to exercise your power (which makes sense, since we want more lynches).  I don't think apparent willingness is good enough to confirm a townie.

On a similar note, Rat -does- need to use his vigkill today.  When exactly is that going to happen?  The deadline apparently hasn't been taken seriously, and I don't even blame Rat for this, it's our fault for not coming to a consensus.

On the subject of Alex's claim: this looks moderately believable, if only because it's so easy to prove it if he's lying.  Rat's life expectancy isn't exactly indefinite, and if Alex is a lying scum here, he dies the day after Rat does, guaranteed, as soon as he fails to produce that dayvig.  Turning my paranoia up a few notches for a second, this COULD be a crazy scum ploy in that they'll now never target Rat and leave him alive so that Alex never runs into this situation, or something, but I don't see how it'd be worth it just to back up that particular roleclaim when he could claim something else and, you know, not have to deal with an active dayvig all game.  So.  On balance, it looks pretty good right now (if unverified as yet, obviously).

"But wait!" you say.  "Didn't you just say Cid has to prove his claim?  Why are you saying Alex looks good now when his claim's unproven as well?"  Alex isn't proven either, but the fact that town would actually be guaranteed to demand a demonstration of his power (meaning that if he's lying, he definitely won't get away with it unless Rat somehow survives forever) makes his case look more believable to me.  On the flipside, even Alex is telling us "No, don't make Cid use his power, that power sucks" -- which it does, but it means Cid's gotten everyone to accept him as a townie (note the dropped votes) and there'll almost certainly never come a time when he has to demonstrate that ability.  Unless we make him.

[Smodge13]

##Extension

Don't forget VSM Alex, i know he has a fair few small posts at the start, but didn't someone once mention scum often pad their post counts at the beginning and then drop into lurker mode when things start to get serious, since this whole debate has been going on VSM has said almost nothing except that his vote for you is now serious, no thoughts on any of the other cases whatsoever.

Now due to the dual role claims we should probably shift the dayvig to another target, i have tendency to believe them at first because a false role claim is often proven later.
I know we don't want people wasting time but this may be a situation that we wan't to ask for an extension, because as we're going a new case can't be developed on anyone, LaL shows us nothing as well, i was against the extension before, but now because we're coming close to Dayvig deadline with not much to go on (if we disregard Cid/Alex of course) and time can be used to build more cases and work things out.

Reason i believe these 2 role claims, their easily proven later, Cid's can be proven anytime the town wants it to, as for Alex's well if hypothetically Alex were scum, then that false claim would prevent them from killing Rat because it would then prove Alex as scum as he wouldn't inherit powers.
Then again in the political intrigue of mafia it is highly possible that the prince/governator or ANYONE in a high position could be scum.

Now cases on others (bare with me if this ends mid sentence or anything, 10 minutes until work, i can read mafia at work, but annoyingly can't post (unless i use my mobile which costs me ALOT so i will only do it if 100% vital and my life is on the line), goign to bug admins today so that i may get the ability to log in during my lunch break. Anyway if i get on during break my next post would be in 7 hours or so, if not then in 13 hours, i know i'm lurking to a degree because of this but hopefully these big posts i make are worth enough.

VSM looks worst to me, seriously look at his posts, their small and usually don't reveal anything of significance and barely even comments on the cases.

Lady Door has some confusing posts, however could be just be beginner getting used to the waters (i know i give to much leniency to the new players, but hey someone has to).

Ciato and her Vote for Otter rings minor scum bells to me.

VSM:  Neither Alex nor myself voted against the extension!  Alex said he would if he could at one point, apparently forgetting that he could, but in the end neither of us put down anti-votes.  The problem with everyone voting Extend right off the bat on principle (which is what happened) is that there's not a really good reason for it.  Having high pressure to get the issue settled isn't a bad thing, and I don't think wanting more time is automatically pro-town.  If he let us extend it to week-long days, would you vote for that?  By Cid's reasoning, surely you would if you were a townie, because a week of discussion is much more than a day of discussion, and more discussion helps town!  This is bogus, though, because we don't NEED that much time.  We can put out high-content posts, make decisions, and vote much faster than that, and we SHOULD be doing so, and the people who aren't doing so stick out to me right now.  A noncommittal and essentially time-wasting attitude is a popular one for scum, since it means they can essentially lurk without appearing to lurk.

This is just such ridiculous overblowing of the statement. Wanting a day extention WHEN IT IS OFFERED and likely needed due to half-days =/= wanting a freaking week to vote. Feh. I completely disagree that scum wants longer days, anyway. Actually, I think you're acting pretty ridiculous in general over this. I'm not sure why you two are so damn adamant about this but I find it highly weird. Otter just seems to be trying to twist things, and I don't like it one bit.

It doesn't seem like he's overblowing statements at all to me, so naturally this vote seems very odd, Ciato Accuses Otter of twisting things but then to me it seems like she is twisting things herself.

Then again i can't talk with the whole Cid Mountain/Molehill thing.
In response to Ciato

Smodge: VSM "lacks a sense of self-preservation" for criticizing Rat? I disagree. If any one of us sees something suspicious, they should share it with the rest of us. You think he looks bad just because of who he's attacking?

Could be OMGus spurring this, however it seems like an attempt to make me blow up, with lack of Tom around it is possible scum could try it as a tactic, but seems like he's making a mountain out of a mole hill, then again day 1 not much to go on he may be thinking along the same lines as me.

What? I wasn't aware he was making a mountain out of anything. I think that trying to say that this statement is something that's trying to make you mad is what's making a mountain out of a molehill personally. >_> What exactly in this statement is offensive?

Otter of all people saying it's best to cut off discussion early and go straight to the kill, in this kind of situation? That doesn't sit right with me.

I kind of agree with this, advocating haste in this situation doesn't seem wise (but seems advantageous to the scum), but why exactly do you say 'Otter of all people'? He's pretty gung-ho by pretty much all I can tell from playing Mafia with him.

The last comment of mine where i say "then again he could be thinking along same lines as me" was basically forgiving him for the mountain/molehill thing, as day 1 nothing to go on and basically my vote was there ebcause there WAS almost nothing else to go on, just like his comment against me, there WAS almost nothing else to go on, however now there has been alot more discussion and we at least have a lot more to go on, so far the Alex/Cid cases look like no-go's due to roleclaims and so we have to now look at other targets.

VSM leads for me as for others it would be more grasping at straws than anything else.

Out of time this morning, will post more on other people next chance i get, if anyone want's anything in particular from me just say so.

[Carthrat]

I'm here and itching to kill someone. The current person up for execution is Alex. Unless there is a flurry of opposition, like, right now, vigkill is coming momentarily (within the next thirty minutes or so.) Please post and quite clearly say you're against it if so.

<->

Allow me to be the first in this flurry of opposition!

His claim has me wanting to let Alex linger around longer. I don't think I'm going to last forever and he'll be taken to task over this if he lacks daykilling powers upon my (doubtlessly) untimely demise.

I disagree with Otter and Cor that letting Cid prove his powers to us is a worthy option. Governor, again, is one of those awesome non-roles that exists, much like doublevoter, solely so one person exercises an inordinate amount of power of the lynch that doesn't give us any extra results. The only thing *worth* using it for is to... confirm a townie. I find Otter's attitude very unusual (especially from him) and at odds with his desire to set the pacing for a more brutal game.

In my mind, a chance to kill scum is worth more than confirming one townie. If we absolutely must bring Cid's case to question, only THEN would I be amenable to this argument. In any case, we have to target someone else today.

I kind of agree that Otter makes a tempting target as well. It's actually this line that made me raise an eyebrow-

If my jump to the Cid train was the most eyebrow-raising thing I've done so far in this game, I'd say I'm doing pretty well.

It looks like an idle comment, but it doesn't feel like something a townie would say at all. He's still going after OK, i.e. a lurker, i.e. someone we DON'T want to hit with a vigkill.

I'll say again, I'm far more comfortable killing someone who is not-Alex than Alex himself.

[Ranmilia]

Otter, I don't agree with how you're defining proof here.

First of all, I don't think a governor ability confirms someone as town.  I have read games where scum had a oneshot lynch stop.  It's a very nasty power to give to scum, granted, and therefore most likely town, but not guaranteed. 

Second of all, I don't think it's worth sacrificing a town kill to prove El Cid's claim at this time.  Dayvig capabilities and 2 kills per day gives town a very large advantage, one that should be pressed for all it's worth.  Giving up a townkill, even though we have another one, even though it's day 1, is just not a good thing to do in general.  We sacrifice a possible scum kill and assured cardflip and gain in return a high probability of assurance (but not guaranteed) that Cid is town.  Why should we do that, when we can simply accept that Cid is probable town and lynch someone else anyhow? 

Yes, he could easily be lying and bluffing and counting on arguments like this one to save himself from having to use his power.  But as long as we remember that possibility, we can call him out to prove his power anytime.  Or he might get NK'd or caught by a cop or whatever else.  It's a better case to leave for later on, not worth sacrificing a townkill for. 

Edit for Smodge - I feel that VSM has contributed a fair amount of content.  I don't agree with most of what he says, but he has talked about relevant issues and his style of posting fits the extreme paranoia VSM I've seen in previous games. 

[Ranmilia]

And I miss editing for Rat as well!

Uh, I object to killing me!  Please note that I only got back and posted my claim about an hour ago and the folks voting for me likely haven't seen it yet.  I apologize for not claiming when I went to sleep last night, but I didn't seem to be on the block at that point and didn't want to jump the gun on claiming if I didn't have to.

[Shale]

Okay. First off, I agree that I don't want Cid using his power just to show that he has it. We're essentially giving up a guaranteed flip (and a possible scum takedown) to...sort of prove he's probably a townie but not really because that presupposes knowing the mind of the mod. If Cid's really a town governor, he can save the power for an obvious mislynch, if there is one. Beyond that, I see more benefit in letting the lynches happen.

[Carthrat]

*kicks Shale for not weighing in on Alex clearly*

[Shale]

*kicks Rat for assuming that's all I've got to say*

[Carthrat]

*kicks Shale for not saying it =p*

[Luther Lansfeld]

It doesn't seem like he's overblowing statements at all to me, so naturally this vote seems very odd, Ciato Accuses Otter of twisting things but then to me it seems like she is twisting things herself.

So how is saying YOU THINK 24 HOUR EXTENTION IS A GOOD IDEA? Then I assume you want a week to make decisions!!! not overblowing things? How exactly is that twisting anything? If that isn't the very definition of exaggeration, then I don't know what is.

I'm not sure about VSM. VSM, in general, is very paranoid and questioning of everything, be it in Mafia or in other things. It's one of his endearing qualities. So it's hard for me to tell if he's trying to plant a seed of doubt or is just acting cautiously.

OK... uh, well, shouldn't he be getting a modkill about right now? It's been like 2 days or something.

I'm also pretty strongly against Alex getting vigged at this time. The roleclaim is weird and blows my mind (not the timing, just that there would be a backup role for this). I've already said who I think should be lynched with my votes. Someone who seems to be trying to polarize things (in my view), someone who has been slightly snotty and snippy to various people throughout the day over things, and it seems like he's trying to start trouble on things while trying to get people he perceives as threats on his side by saying they are acting very townie.

LadyDoor's arguments have been confusing and extremely poor to my mind from the getgo.  I admit I still don't comprehend what she means with the specific/general stuff.  The only clear thing I can pick up from her posts is that it is about the extension and she is politicizing it, which is bad. 

I'm not sure if she is politizing the issue itself, but rather the reactions of the other people to the discussion on it. El-Cid seemed to be the one doing that, whereas LD seemed to be miffed with your reaction to people who wanted an extention. It seems to be vaguely circular to me since it's mostly a playstyle debate from my view. Mind pointing out exactly which part of her post you are talking about in particular? I may have missed something key here.

[Ranmilia]

Ciato:  Basically all the non-quote text in her last two posts.  They're right there, read for yourself, like I said I can't really understand them that well.  If you must have a specific point-out, the first paragraph of her last post.  All I can make out is that she's voting me for talking about the extension.

[Otter]

Otter, I don't agree with how you're defining proof here.

That's a dramatic opener but I don't really think you followed through with it.  Basically you're just saying that using the Governor power doesn't prove he's town, because there could be an insane and rare form of bastard modding, that even you've only read about, in play here.  Personally, I'd rather assume there's no bastard modding like that going on, as a general rule.

Yes, he could easily be lying and bluffing and counting on arguments like this one to save himself from having to use his power.  But as long as we remember that possibility, we can call him out to prove his power anytime.  Or he might get NK'd or caught by a cop or whatever else.  It's a better case to leave for later on, not worth sacrificing a townkill for.

The "let's put it off till later" maneuver is well-loved by the scum.  Towards the end you're going "You know, maybe it'll just take care of itself, via night actions we have no control over," which is NOT an attitude I'd expect Alex to take.  It's not like I'm asking for proof out of nowhere -- we pushed him to claim in the first place because he looked bad, and as far as I'm concerned, that all stands.  The theoretical future in which we decide he looks bad and should need to prove himself has already been reached as far as I'm concerned.  Besides, if we put it off till later, we could be out of a dayvig capability by then and then we REALLY wouldn't want to "waste" our one kill on confirming someone that everyone else seems to accept as a townie already.

If nobody else is at all concerned that this could be a really clever scum bluff, there's nothing to be done about it.  Cid should defer to town majority in the use of his power, now that it's out in the open.  I'm excited about the prospect of getting our two-kills-a-day engine started up immediately, too.  I'm just uncomfortable with the ease and speed with which Cid's claim has cleared him without a shred of evidence.

[Carthrat]

The thing is, Otter, there's *no point* discussing Cid as a daykill candidate. He can't govern that away. This is a topic better saved for after the daykill. We SHOULD put this off till later. >_>