VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

[Excal]

There is something you must recall.  That information, though valuable, is also gleaned at the cost of our own deaths, arranged by those who mean us harm.  I know something of the tactics of the Sabbat, and I know this.  They already have precious little in the way of influence.  By reducing their power in the day, when we cannot watch them, we force them to act more where we can see them, where we can trace their actions through careful scrutiny.  And all of this without the cost of Sabbat acting with impunity.

I would also contend with your statement that we cannot lay a vote upon our Prince.  If there was any just cause for us to do so, we could in a second oust him.  However, as has been pointed out before, his power is our power.  Suspicion is both just and natural for those who must live in night's embrace, but I begin to suspect you take it too far, claiming we dance to his tune because we must, and not because it is mutually beneficial.

You should also be careful.  Though the powers that come in the day can favour us, the Sabbat has more than just the Final Death to levy against us.  And there is no proof that we of the Camarilla have any edge save numbers.  Those numbers are our greatest asset.  Not any disciplein that you would have us rely upon.

As a final note.  Your mention of past precedent is one where you speak of a different situation.  Perhaps you should have.  Though, it leads to a place where the prey can then defend themselves from your assault, while from the Prince's decree there is no respite.

[Carthrat]

The difference between daykill vig and regular vig is the discussion time allowed and the necessity of claiming. In my case, everyone KNOWS I'm a vig and KNOWS how my kill works, and there's a chance to discuss things after the initial lynch (and thus perhaps reconsider the second target.)

For an NK vig, it's not such an easy choice, and I agree that it would be dangerous to simply lynch the target with the most votes after things go through. The only choice I *ever* had with this power was when to claim it, really.

As far as the pace of the game goes, I believe it's more important to one-up the scum in terms of kills if we can. I don't necessarily disagree that we may not have as much time to discuss things as we'd like, hence why I vote for extensions. I feel I'm making the best of what I've got to work with. I feel that not using this power is pointless.

[Excal]

Alright, I'm about to go to bed, and given I'm only going to have one more period to react and vote seriously before Rat pulls the trigger, I want to set this up now so as to give my target some time to respond.

##Unvote: Andrew, ##Vote: Corwin

Simply put, given it's half of a day I have to vote off of, I'd feel bad voting for some who hadn't had a chance to see the topic before I leave a lurker vote I cannot remove.  So, I need to vote for someone I can see.  VSM...  Like I said before, I see his arguments as bad town more than as scum per se.  This only leaves two people who've left anything worthy of looking at closely at the moment.  Otter, with his initial assault on Rat, and Corwin, who jumped on Otter for it.

Otter was hard to press, for something trivial too.  But pressing for details is something to appreciate, not scorn.  Which makes me wonder why Corwin was so quick to jump.  So, scant though it is, it's Day 1, and that's as good as it gets.

[Corwin]

So... wait, because I think Otter didn't pay enough attention to the game and was asking for clarifications on things amply clarified by then (and not ninja'd by Rat as he was asking about them or anything), and this is a case which I have gone over repeatedly... you're voting for me? And it even somehow lines up with what you said along the lines of:

Giving negative reinforcement for speaking one's mind seems a bad precedent to set.

'Along the lines'? Wait, that's exactly what you said, and that kept you from voting VSM. But trying to point out the strangeness of Otter's question and clearly not lurking or avoiding giving answers in any fashion is actually a reason to vote for me? And it's not even a 'pressure' vote since this gives me the dubious pleasure of a lead with two votes.

So yeah. The usual 'explain yourself' demand, except without any OMGUS vote on you. Using 'this is day 1 lol' excuses is lame because it isn't the typical day 1 due to Rat's claim in the first post, and the nature discussion had been taking since, unlike any other day 1.

[Carthrat]

The strangest thing I've got on Cor so far is calling out Otter on, well, being here. I don't really like how he tries to justify it with 'I don't like weirdness', either. I don't really have that much of a problem jabbing Otter over questioning me 'cos I feel it was kinda of odd myself.

Anyway, other people are calling VSM's play an example of 'bad town play' owing to how he's actually come out and discussed the issue. I utterly LOATHE how he's gone on about night roles, but... I can't deny that many games as of late have had large numbers of roles and they've had large impacts on the game in the past.

I guess my real argument is that games *shouldn't* come to depend on them, and *we* should not assume they will help us. I'm gonna tentatively let VSM off the hook and go after a lurker again. The same one, in fact. ##Unvote, Vote: OK. Let's see what you've got when you get here.

[Corwin]

Speaking of lurkers, smodge posted in Warcraft but not here. Must summon, with voting.

##Unvote, ##Vote: smodge

[Ranmilia]

We still haven't heard at all from... uh, a lot of people.  And if we still haven't by blood hunt time, I'm in favor of them as dusting targets over people who have posted.  General principle, yknow.

[Smodge13]

A shame, a few unreasonables get in and chaos is sown in our beautiful Elysium, how ever shall we track them down?

My Dear Quietrain, i must compliment your delightful spots, however the reason i do not show my face is that it lacks the right setting at the moment, however worry not for as the night goes on i may reveal it in its magnificence.

##Vote The Pictureless Wonder.  He hides his face from us.  What's to trust, I say!

*whispers loudly* The poor dear seems to have addled her wits.

As for now, Welcome Prince Rat, your Presence is a comfort to us all, however Suspicion must be shown on everyone so that we can better determine who amongst us are the hideous beasts, hopefully we will find them quickly and put them down like the dogs they are.

VSM, openly questioning the Prince motives shows your Wits are possibly in the same condition as our dear Leopard, or you possibly just lack any sense of self preservation.
Your actions though do make sense, as noone should be cleared of suspicion, however the more cultured of us will use a thing called....tact, which is something one doesn't live long in Elysium without. "Poor boy, lacks culture but it may be possible to improve him".

I do agree, we should vote out those who don't even have the decency to speak and introduce themselves, its a shame such uncultured people are even permitted in Elysium
##Vote:CPU
He is yet to step forward and speak just like OK.

Anyway i shall soon depart for the night, should anyone need me i should be around again in 8 hours time.

[EvilTom]

An update:

Votes
El Cideon (0): Carthrat
Excal (1): Shale
Smodge13 (2): QuietRain, Corwin
QuietRain (1): Lady Door
Ciato (1): El Cideon
VerySlightlyMad (1): Otter, Carthrat
Andrew Rogue (0): Excal
Otter (0): Corwin
Corwin (2): Sir Alex, Excal
Sir Alex (2): VerySlightlyMad, Anonymous
Oblivion Knight (1): Carthrat, Carthrat
IHateThisCPU (1): Smodge

A number of 8 is required for majority.

12.5 hours have passed since Elysium began; 35.5 remain.
(Though it looks like there will be a time extension of 24 hours at this rate)

[Corwin]

And an unvote as smodge posts. I think I'll wait to give the US guys time to actually say something before trying to aim for any other lurker.

##Unvote: smodge

[Carthrat]

So uh VSM is that anonymous vote your doing?

[Shale]

I can't fault VSM for saying that two Day 1 lynches won't help town - I made the same argument in Suiko - but saying that extra lynches are never good is another beast altogether. We can kill scum by lynching people. At worst, we gain information by lynching people. Depending on roles may help us, if the people with power roles make the right choices and don't get nightkilled and the scum don't have overpowering roles of their own.

[Sierra]

##Time Extension

I'm always really clueless on how to start up the day, but I guess the most suspicious would be El-Cid offhand, due to trying to cast suspicion on Rat. Otter is the same here, although he seems to pretty much retract it due to a good answer. Dayvig is something that I find pretty trustworthy since it's easily provable enough, so whatever.

All this polite talk has my country girl brain con-fused. Or maybe it's all the Physics.

Do I trust Rat implicitly just because of the claim? No. Nor should anyone, until it's been demonstrated. This is day one Mafia. But if I really thought it was worth stringing him up right now, I would've voted for him. As has been pointed out by others, he has to use this power at our direction or risk condemning himself. This is what I'm waiting for.

Smodge: VSM "lacks a sense of self-preservation" for criticizing Rat? I disagree. If any one of us sees something suspicious, they should share it with the rest of us. You think he looks bad just because of who he's attacking? This is day one; no one's cleared yet, even with a claim lke Rat's. I wouldn't have carried VSM's train of thought to quite the length that he has, but I agree that there are grounds to be skeptical.

As for who I am suspicious of...Anyone urging that we end the day quicker, really. Yes, killing people gives us information, but you shouldn't act like this is the only way to get it. Curbing discussion is never good for town--even day one discussion, haphazard as it often is. People have different schedules, there needs to be time for some with odd times to post, garner responses, talk back, etc. I'm not suggesting we refrain from using the daykill, of course--I believe quite the opposite, as it is a useful option--but this really does seem the textbook example of when to request an extension. Wrapping up "lol day one" in nicer language isn't going to change my mind on that. Fast-forwarding past the first kill isn't necessarily going to jolt everyone into a This Are Serious Mafia mindset. I think it's worth taking time for everyone to get their bearings.

Anyway, ##Unvote: Ciato, because the vote isn't needed there right now. Will reread some stuff and get another up in a few minutes.

[Shale]

##Unvote
##Extension

Excal is talking, and an extension should do for problems with ending the day quicker. If we end the first "day" after 36 hours we're still probably getting more discussion than we would after an average 48-hour Day 1, just because Rat jump-started discussion from the first post.

Crunch time at work, more later.

[Excal]

Corwin, Rat pointed out the specific reason why I'm twigging on you.  Because you suggested someone was suspicious for posting.  This feels more like fishing for support than anything VSM said, and nobody else has really said anything that pings as odd to me.

You also claim that it's not the typical Day 1.  On some points I can accept that.  Heck, if I was going to be back home before the Rat Kill, I'd even agree with that in terms of my vote and where it should go.  But the thing is, with only half a day, I cannot in good consciousness go after a lurker, because I may not, in fact, be targetting a lurker.  So I need to target someone who has spoken.  And of those who have spoken, you've caught my eye with the aforementioned line.

Which brings me back to the Day 1 line, which does hold very true.  It's a really crummy argument, but it's the strongest one I have, and so I'm going to go with it.

Hmm, in second thought, I think the non-typical day 1 argument has made one thing perfectly viable.

##Extension

So let's see how things stand when I return.

[Corwin]

While the way it came off is admittedly bad, it's hardly the first time we consider past posting habits when we look at someone. When Rat was playing more aggressively in discworld, it was certainly something people commented on, myself included. When Otter went through long stretches of silence in several games (in some due to RL reasons, in others due to lurking as scum and RL reasons), it was also pointed out. I don't see what's quite so invalid about me doing it here, especially since it wasn't even the main reason for my vote at any stage.

[IhatethisCPU]

Right, right, I'm here. I've... certain time restrictions, that I've mentioned before. Repeatedly and obnoxiously, I believe.

...Question, smodge. ...Why are you acting like you've come out of an Anne Rice novel?
...And we've got our first roleclaim already? Well done. ...With no prodding at all? Very well done, indeed.

...Well, we haven't got much to go on otherwise, other than to wait for OK to show up, and lynch him if he doesn't show up.

...Unfinished business:
##Vote El Cid
##Unvote El Cid

...Why? For misreading, which,considering the tone of my last post, was more than understandable, my scumbaiting strategy in Discworld mafia. On the plus side, Fnorder did a magnificent job of taking over as Susan, and he was quite helpful, quite a bit more so than than I would've been...

[Sierra]

As well, I shall concur with the idea of not extending our time as of yet.  Time breeds the ability to consider falsehoods, and to otherwise cover ones tracks.  The Sabbat scum have had little time as of yet to form covers, and this is the time to press and see what can be uncovered.

As well, it is true.  We cannot form an intelligent decision.  But, to think that we could on such short notice, even with extra time, is foolishness.  Let us force the issue, and see what comes of it, that we may start fast with our foundation and not waste time with frivilous games and meaningless prattle.

I disagree with this first point. More time also gives scum more opportunity to hang themselves, which I think more than outweighs the possibility of them having more time to plot things. The second paragraph looks worse. We can't make an informed decision, so let's just kill someone and hope we get lucky?

Now, I see Excal has since reconsidered his stance on this issue and put in a request for an extension. This is good, and lessens my suspicion. Otter has not come back to rescind the similar statements he made early on page 2, though, and this I find disagreeable. Otter of all people saying it's best to cut off discussion early and go straight to the kill, in this kind of situation? That doesn't sit right with me. So:

##Vote: Otter

Also, ##Extension

As for Cor's statement about Otter on the first page, which is now getting him some flack? Honestly, I can't take that very seriously. I admit that Rat's roleclaim jolted this game into the serious phase more quickly than most of our games manage...but there was some nonsense in our first posts, there always will be, and I think this was part of it.

[AndrewRogue]

Good morning. Will catch up during class.

[QuietRain]

*sigh*  I hate sleeping.  I miss out on so much!

Today's notes:

##Extension Since we can't lynch without a full hammer, time is our friend.
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Doublevote: This is...interesting.  I'd like to see an answer to Prince Ratkin's question.  Doublevotes are fun and freaking useful (if they're in the right hands, anyway...Sabbat DVing is bad juju).
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Per Fluffytail's comments on page 1 that all votes should be at least semi-serious, I agree.  The jokevote phase must needs be short because of the mandatory hammer terms.  As such, I have seen the Faceless Wonder speak(still eyes him suspiciously...I look forward to seeing one per your post) ##Unvote Faceless Wonder

I think going after lurkers is a good idea.  Calling out ComputerBoy.  Come out, come out, wherever you are!

##Vote ComputerBoy
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MoreThanALittleCrazy's rants on Price Ratkin leave a ... somewhat odd taste in my mouth.  To say that we get nothing out of a midday lynch is several shades of incorrect.  Now, I trust Ratkin about as far as I can pick him up and throw him (which I doubt his ghouls would let me do anyway, *unhappy sigh*), but I trust that what he has claimed can only do two things: help us get an extra lynch in or get himself killed if he misplays his hand.  As such, really, how can this hurt us? 2 town kills a day + 1 NK = more ammunition for us while keeping them at their usual supply.  Plus, Ratkin's comments outside of his lynches are still available for our consideration to be used in judging his true alliance.

Also, I disagree with MTALC VERY strongly when he says that we are forced to follow Prince ratkin by his actions.  What Ratkin has said is that he will lynch the person with the most votes at the midday point.  Now, we ALL put votes on the people we think are suspicious.  This is done regardless of whatever Ratkin does.  If he were not in the game at all or if he had remained silent about his ability, we would still be voting regardless for those we find suspicious.  That is how the game is played.
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EDIT: And ComputerBoy posts while I type.  Ninja bad.  And he comments on things, no just an 'I'm here post and a vote'.  good juju.  So.....##Unvote ComputerBoy, ##Vote Mr Cake until he gets a chance to type up a response.

[Lady Door]

I must admit, belatedly, that I see some sense in being wary of our Prince outing himself so immediately and placing such powerful tool at our feet. As literally the first action, it has a ridiculously controlling effect over actions that have no immediate logic. Granted, as it was the first action, the quest for information began sooner than it otherwise might and I can only see this as a good thing. However, I am wary about a power which has the potential to allow for two poorly informed lynches with little potential to pin the blame if we happen to lose two aligned for justice because of it ("I was merely following the vote"). I do believe that he's doing only what he must, though, so it's caution over the role I'm taking rather than suspicion of the one who claims it. The latter will sort itself out fairly shortly.

What Ratkin has said is that he will lynch the person with the most votes at the midday point.  Now, we ALL put votes on the people we think are suspicious.  This is done regardless of whatever Ratkin does.

This is true, but at the same time there have been many seemingly good decisions that steamrolled too quickly to be reviewed logically as a whole which turn out to be bad decisions. The dayvig deciding to kill exactly midday is cutting things a bit fine on us being convinced of anything much. I also suspect, given the time-frame of the game, the dayvig will end up being controlled by a particular faction of individuals who happen to be around early enough in the new day to make the arguments which begin the lynch voting. Unavoidable, as I ultimately agree that it's far more useful to us if we get our information on a kill with enough time to make an argument for the next, but worth pointing out.

Now... my homework requires my attention, so I'll return later today with something more substantive. That in mind:

##Extension



 

[Corwin]

CPU, are you... voting/unvoting Cid for a grudge from a previous game? Jokevoting?

Whatever, that certain got you my lurker vote, since yeah, those with limited time should strive to fill it with actual content, I happen to believe. OK's got the excuse of not being here, you lack even that.

##Vote: CPU

QR, mind telling us what exactly CPU has commented on, which caused you to unvote him? Saying that Rat roleclaimed and smodge is speaking in character?

On Lady Door's concerns: Yeah, they're quite serious. But if you think only a portion of people would decide the lynch with their arguments, it still leaves others plenty of time to pitch in for the real lynch at the very least. In fact, the full day would be longer if we extend it to get enough debating done for our two lynches per day. We won't be starting it all entirely from scratch after our Prince kills the first target, after all.

[QuietRain]

Corax: What ComputerBoy responded to that made me unvote him was two fold.

1 - As no one has set off any Scum Alarms in me yet, I'm using my votes solely on lurkers.  This will change if any alarms go off, of course. 

2 - The fact that he didn't go 'I'm here!  Vote: Random person' means a post with content which means less of a lurker than people who have not really done that yet.  His comments on Ratkin's Daykill announcement weren't a simple 'oh hey we have a dayvig power', but were along the lines of approval for such an early admission of the ability.  I think a statement that they are pro this idea rather than against qualifies to me as content.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Mmm, Corwin, Rat  from what I've seen plays in a different style every game. He was very aggressive in Touhou Mafia, but in, say, Suikomafia or FFT Mafia he wasn't aggressive as scum at all. And in WoT mafia he was pretty laid back as town, but in Discworld he was all over Tai's ass. It's just good policy to either try to change in every game to play to not be too predictable or to act the same as town and scum. And Rat is someone who is definitely the former.

Otter's showing up in the earlygame is more of a direct result of him being told that the game indeed existed. I kind of like what Otter did here, questioning Rat enough to get him to give answers regarding his power and the roleclaim and let it go when he was adquetely satsified. I think VSM is very much on the wrong trail here, and some of his statements bother me. Although I think this might be more of a argument on the philosophy of the game rather than any advocation of certain things. However! If Rat is going to give us reign of his lovely power, I see no reason to cast suspicion on him for now. Yes, you shouldn't take things at face value, but you also shouldn't pass up something that is obviously a benefit to town for minimal reasons at best.

However, I, too, find Otter's attitude regarding being gung-ho and quick about davigging suspicious. I think hasty decisions only serve to help scum, while giving us time to settle our affairs is in our favor.

I can't fault VSM for saying that two Day 1 lynches won't help town - I made the same argument in Suiko - but saying that extra lynches are never good is another beast altogether. We can kill scum by lynching people. At worst, we gain information by lynching people. Depending on roles may help us, if the people with power roles make the right choices and don't get nightkilled and the scum don't have overpowering roles of their own.

Well, personally I think we should take advantage of our resources as much as we can. If he has unlimited powers as he says (I think that's what he said, but all this vampire talk confuses me ), then using it to ensure that the town gets more chances to get their say so in the happenings of our happy... uh vampire village? I disagree with VSM on most accounts. First of all, taking up time with trying to figure out if he's third-party seems bleh to me. EVEN IF HE IS THIRD-PARTY, HE IS ALLOWING US TO USE HIS POWERS FOR GOOD. Why -shouldn't- we just use this advantage? Things can be dealt with in their proper time, and depriving ourselves of two lynches simply seems inane.

Anyway, Andrew and OK I'd really like to see more of before laying down any votes.

[Corwin]

I'm not sure I agree here, QR, but I at least understand where you're coming from. My vote will remain to express my displeasure to CPU over his dubious content until we're either closer to a decision or he says something that actually makes me take it off. Maybe I'm jaded from other games with him, where he didn't seem to want to make the effort, so I'm expecting more from him than the average lurker to make sure it won't be happening here, too. I dunno.