Author Topic: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia (Read 49050 times)

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #25 on:** February 05, 2008, 07:29:53 AM »

Really, now, Otter. Do you think I'd be so gauche as to attend a party without first being fashionably late? >Tsk tsk< (I didn't notice the topic was posted.)

As for my take on things, I say we need to look suspiciously at...

##Vote: Sir Alex

A vampire paladin? Do you take us for fools?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I sleep from 6 AM (Closer to 8 AM these days) until sometime in the afternoon, EST.

Corwin · « **Reply #26 on:** February 05, 2008, 07:35:08 AM »

There's investigative and there's a case of reading comprehension. I don't see why only smodge should get voted for the later, as if other people gain immunity from that. And now that I think about it, Otter being here early really does feel odd, so I'm comfortable with my 'semi-serious' vote there.

Carthrat · « **Reply #27 on:** February 05, 2008, 07:38:32 AM »

We CAN request an extension, though. And given that we have two lynches I think this will be wise to do- even though it's day 1.

##Time Extension (this is the final lap!)

<->

As the good Sir Alex has said, votes are indeed going to be at the least semi-serious. At present there is little to read into the statements of present individuals. For instance, while I do believe El Cideon is rather unseemly in his wild speculations as to my allegiences, I cannot deny that everyone is a suspect.

As far as things stand, however, I do agree that we must focus upon the silent. Naturally, upon their speaking, such pressure can be relieved. BUT UNTIL THAT TIME...

##Unvote, ##Vote OK An Oblivion Knight! Such a disturbing title! I am reminded of the Lasombra just by hearing this name...

<->

I must admit that I share a concern or two of the good Sir Corwin in that I had already stated my intentions before Otter's queries. I don't, however, believe that Otter presenting himself early in the night is anything to be worried about, or even consider odd.

Luther Lansfeld · « **Reply #28 on:** February 05, 2008, 07:49:22 AM »

##Time Extension

I'm always really clueless on how to start up the day, but I guess the most suspicious would be El-Cid offhand, due to trying to cast suspicion on Rat. Otter is the same here, although he seems to pretty much retract it due to a good answer. Dayvig is something that I find pretty trustworthy since it's easily provable enough, so whatever.

All this polite talk has my country girl brain con-fused. Or maybe it's all the Physics.

Otter · « **Reply #29 on:** February 05, 2008, 07:52:05 AM »

Wait, hold up, just so we're clear. You're citing my presence against me now, Corwin? You'd be more comfortable with me if I weren't saying anything at all?

The check-in and jokevote is acknowledged, VSM, but I'm leaving my vote as an incentive for you to produce something with more substance. I could, alternately, switch my vote to someone else who hasn't spoken and carry on like that rather tediously, but they're called out by default already (if they weren't: people who haven't talked, you should talk!) and honestly you haven't given me a reason to remove my vote. I'll leave it as an incentive for you to produce something more substantial -- which may not be tonight, of course, but if we're coming up on the Rat-lynch deadline and you haven't really gotten further, things will be different. Let's avoid that.

EDIT: ninja'd by the Rat. I sort of agree that more time could be useful in this situation since we have to divide it between two lynches, but I also think the brief time limit could work in our favor. It forces everyone to snap to action and I think this slightly more brutal game style could help town out. I'll mention, however, that as we approach the Rat-lynch deadline, it may be the case that a few more hours will seem really helpful and desired and in that case I will vote to extend. Until and unless that becomes the case, though, I'd just as soon stick with the short days. Don't take more time for granted.

Corwin · « **Reply #30 on:** February 05, 2008, 07:57:30 AM »

Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough. I don't like the way you asked Rat for explanations he had already given, Otter, both with flavor and without. That's really the main reason I'm keeping my vote on you. Your early presence just struck me as weird, and I don't like weirdness. I do, of course, fully support people talking and will happily switch to a lurker if deadline approaches and someone is still skulking about in the shadows.

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #31 on:** February 05, 2008, 08:23:10 AM »

I don't see how the hell I'm supposed to be able to form an informed opinion on what's going on in this game after literally one page of discussion.

So is Rat essentially just being a dick, or is he somehow forced to do a day-vig at about the halfway point?

Corwin · « **Reply #32 on:** February 05, 2008, 08:25:42 AM »

Presumably, this is where the time extension comes in. So what the hell, ##Time Extension.

Carthrat · « **Reply #33 on:** February 05, 2008, 08:27:24 AM »

I'm not being a dick and I'm not forced to day-vig at all, if I choose. If I have to explain why day-viging is cool, it's because it gives town an extra lynch, and town-controlled kills are the best thing ever because they *aren't scum controlled* and *aren't third-party controlled* and thus give us a good shot at, you know, winning the game someday.

This isn't PP. This are serious mafia. This are serious post. </andy>

Otter · « **Reply #34 on:** February 05, 2008, 08:30:32 AM »

Quote from: Veryslightlymad on February 05, 2008, 08:23:10 AM

I don't see how the hell I'm supposed to be able to form an informed opinion on what's going on in this game after literally one page of discussion.

So is Rat essentially just being a dick, or is he somehow forced to do a day-vig at about the halfway point?

The idea, as we've hashed over repeatedly by now (thanks to me) is that town gets two lynches a day if a cooperative daykiller serves as a midday lynch. This is self-evidently advantageous for town, I think, since the lynch is our only reliable weapon. If you still think Rat's "just being a dick" after considering that fact, well, I'm not sure what to say.

EDIT: ninja'd, again, cuurse yoou

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #35 on:** February 05, 2008, 08:32:28 AM »

I'm just saying, starting a game off with "Let's blindly trust Rat!" doesn't strike me as the best possible form. Unlimited Daykill vigilante, and therefor multiple lynchings? The daykill is easily provable, but I see no reason why we should assume you're a pro-town force and not some kind of SK.

On the other hand, there's really nothing we can do to stop you from Daykilling someone TODAY, and more likely than not the scum is going to target you tonight. Just.... why should we trust you?

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #36 on:** February 05, 2008, 08:34:23 AM »

Furthermore, day 1 lynchings are notoriously hard to pin a pattern onto. You want us to have 2 distinct lynchings on the first, crapshoot day, before we can even make sense of potential night actions? I question how this is more valuable than revealing on day 2.

Excal · « **Reply #37 on:** February 05, 2008, 08:37:37 AM »

Indeed, I must agree with our most wise Prince on this issue. He may not be forced to use his power in such a way, but in regulating it, he shows that though his anger is unyielding, it is also not capricious. That he shall be doing it guided by the will of Elysium, as well as at a set hour shows that not only is the responsibility for failure on our shoulders, but also that when he acts, it is not by his will, but by the collective will of the Camarilla.

As well, I shall concur with the idea of not extending our time as of yet. Time breeds the ability to consider falsehoods, and to otherwise cover ones tracks. The Sabbat scum have had little time as of yet to form covers, and this is the time to press and see what can be uncovered.

As well, it is true. We cannot form an intelligent decision. But, to think that we could on such short notice, even with extra time, is foolishness. Let us force the issue, and see what comes of it, that we may start fast with our foundation and not waste time with frivilous games and meaningless prattle.

Seeing the conversation at hand, allow me to amend my statement. Good Ser VSM. You would have us wait longer before starting upon the foundations of knowledge? We may be blind, but fire, though deadly, also illuminates. And the darkness is not our friend.

Carthrat · « **Reply #38 on:** February 05, 2008, 08:42:12 AM »

Firstly, you *should* trust me. I'll say that flat out. It is in every way the wiser option for team scum to conceal their powers as much as it is (usually) for town to conceal theirs. I would get way more mileage out this power by concealing it- *unlimited or not*.

Secondly, it actually doesn't matter whether you trust me or not. I have a daykill power. If I'm lying about that, I'm pretty stupid. I intend to use it however town wants. If I don't, there's my death sentence right there.

Thirdly, why *shouldn't* you trust me, beyond the usual trustn01 mafia spirit?

<->

NIGHTKILLS DO NOT GIVE MORE INFORMATION THAN LYNCHES. WE DO NOT WAIT FOR NIGHTKILLS. NIGHTKILLS WAIT FOR US! We cannot guarantee any night actions that occur are going to be helpful or not! This game is not (I hope) role madness! We cannot wait for roles to play the game for us!

Corwin · « **Reply #39 on:** February 05, 2008, 08:43:33 AM »

Fine, let's argue from the devil's advocate POV, VSM. Let's say Rat isn't our Prince but GHOULISH SCUM. He is giving us a second lynch, he says, and you agree the actual power is easily-provable. If he deviates from following the town's edicts for some reason, that would be a clear sign of that scumminess. So what exactly is the problem?

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #40 on:** February 05, 2008, 08:50:55 AM »

I argue that, indeed, the darkness IS our friend. We're looking at not one, but TWO completely ill-informed scrambles to start off the first day. There's essentially no difference between this and starting off at night.

Rat, if you're an unlimited Daykill vigilante, there is INDEED some level of role-madness going on, because that's a pretty bloody left-field kind of a choice.

And I do not, in fact, think blindly trusting you is the best course of action. We will NOT learn enough from a half-day lynch for our next day-1 lynch.

Why I shouldn't I trust you? Because I don't trust -anyone- who says "Hey, everybody, leave everything in my hands and I'll make good to you 100% happy fun time yes yes." We have literally NOTHING beyond your roleclaim and, presumably subsequent use of your power to trust you on. No personal record. Nothing. An opening post and a promise that, hey, our (usually terribly informationless) day is going to be cut in half, and now we get to make TWO completely informationless kills. Keen! You essentially control the game. I don't like that.
~~~
Corwin, I don't think this is a scummy role, although it could easily be a third party role. He never has to do any of his own work. Everyone happily agrees that he kills the consensus person, and, better yet, he probably can get docs or bodyguards to throw themselves at him from the get-go. It's too perfect and too dangerous if he's third party, and there's little we can do to stop him.

Excal · « **Reply #41 on:** February 05, 2008, 09:01:22 AM »

Mayhaps he is not, as he claims, the Prince. That may be true. However, aside from your contention that he might be an Anarch or a member of the Camarilla that can masquerade as such an agust personage, there is nothing in your caution that holds under scrutiny.

You claim that there is no difference between what is being proposed and what will happen when day comes and we must rest. This is a falsehood of the highest order. For while we may not be able to choose wisely as of yet, it is most definatly us who are making the choice. Even when it is less than useful, its purpose is still to minimize harm to us, and increase our gain. When day comes, that death will be made with an eye to harm our cause, and obfuscate truth from fiction. There is a great deal of difference there.

As well, though it is within his right to do so, our Prince has been courteous enough to share his royal perogative. It is not, as you so put it, leaving everything to him. It is more a case that he is sharing the responsibility of his power with us, and as such, it is our combined will that shall be backing the blood hunt. And if he ever decides that our will does not matter? Well, any one kindred can be strong. But not as strong as a multitude.

Your caution does you credit, VSM. But do not mistake caution over a personage, with what he is capable of doing for us.

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #42 on:** February 05, 2008, 09:08:33 AM »

There's absolutely nothing I can do to stop the game from being played his way, given the nature of his powers. Voting for him at this point is nothing short of suicidal, and voting for him after flip number one seems misinformed and silly. I wanted it to be clear from the very beginning that we don't necessarily have any reason to trust him. When it comes to the middle or end game, I hope someone keeps that in mind.

All right fellows. I've at least given us something to talk about. Let's discuss me and those talking TO me, shall we?

Carthrat · « **Reply #43 on:** February 05, 2008, 09:11:48 AM »

VSM, we don't learn anything from the nightkill. Anyone with roles should not reveal them on day 2 barring something amazing happening.

NOTHING AT ALL. We get a corpse. That's it. All we know about it is that scum wanted him dead, which tells us so little that it's next to nothing.

Regardless of if we DO have roles or not, we cannot rely on them to save the game for us. If we have a cop, he could randomly die tonight, or tomorrow night, or it doesn't even matter if he hasn't claimed and given results yet, or run into a framer. If we have a doc, he could be roleblocked or docbusted or *we just don't know* and we can't assume we're going to find out anything helpful based on flips and such.

We should kill people whenever we can. Forcing faster deadlines generates faster discussion. Selecting people to lynch generates discussion. There is every chance one of our suspects will be scum. It is more likely scum will slip up with the pressure on to make fast decisions and not crash into faulty logic.

Actually, I think it's good that I'm dictating the flow of the game and heaping on the pressure. I make no apologies for this. Note that I'm explicitly not setting out to randomly kill people, and am going to abide by the decision of everyone involved. I actually disagree that we should have REALLY short days at this point (it seems a bit pointless, the reality is that this game started late and a number of people might not have planned to get on board at this time.) But I still think that we should split the day and harvest as much information as possible.

We aren't going to learn more from the night 1 NK. We will, however, learn a few things from the lynch, most likely- and if we get a second before scum get to make their own choices, all the better.

Frankly, I find your idea that darkness is town's friend to be astonishing, and probably the worst thing I've seen all day. We may need the night to thrive, but that doesn't mean our kind can see in the dark.

##Unvote, ##Vote: VSM

Explain yourself. Why is it better not to kill? How do we get information out of night? How does our second kill lack information? How is not using this power, now that it's out in the open, any better than no lynch?

Edit: I am ninja'd by Excal. Curse him and his quick yet insightful tounge!

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #44 on:** February 05, 2008, 09:15:12 AM »

You're wrong. You're putting needless pressure on us for no good reason. And aside from slip-ups during the day, information gained at night ultimately wins games. It's piecing together the puzzle of roleblocks, doctorings, investigations where the game is won. The lynch indeed is our best tool at eliminating scum (technically our only one, if a daykill is a "lynch"), however SPEEDING UP the game is absolutely 100% not our friend.

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #45 on:** February 05, 2008, 09:15:51 AM »

EDIT: My soup is done. 10-20 minute break while I eat.

>Sneer< Do you count your own vote toward the majority, your majesty?

Excal · « **Reply #46 on:** February 05, 2008, 09:19:39 AM »

Rat, there's a reason that I haven't voted for VSM yet. Despite all of his talking, he's happily sticking his foot in his maw over an argument of how to play correctly. And I'd much prefer hitting someone who isn't participating over someone who is eagerly and actively jumping into discussion. That said, the first kill will be decently soon, especially since I'm only going to have a short window to post in the morning before I'm gone for the day. So it's possible I might be convinced to change my mind in the morning. Just... yeah. Giving negative reinforcement for speaking one's mind seems a bad precedent to set.

As a side note. I want everyone who sees this argument to say something, the more the better, giving their opinion on this argument. Sure, this is asking for Me-Too-ism, but it should give us something to go off of.

Carthrat · « **Reply #47 on:** February 05, 2008, 09:21:46 AM »

I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that roles win the game for town. Beyond elaborating on the fact that we have no idea what roles exist or even if they'll give us accurate information, I can only point out that the game is not a puzzle of simple logic, and if roles were the most important thing under consideration, I would develop a strong loathing for the genre.

My own vote does indeed count towards the majority. I reserve the privilege to exercise my democratic right. When it comes to decision making, I will only hold it higher than another in the event of a tie. Do I make myself clear?

Furthermore, do you agree with me, VSM... that the decor of this forum is simply divine?

Ranmilia · « **Reply #48 on:** February 05, 2008, 09:26:16 AM »

Quote from: Veryslightlymad on February 05, 2008, 08:50:55 AM

I argue that, indeed, the darkness IS our friend.

This makes me want to kneejerk vote VSM very badly. Lynches and the discussion around them, voting records, these give town information. Nights do not. There is role madness, I'm sure, unlimited daykill vig and all, but counting on it is folly. Rat's telling us that he'll go with town's vote for his kill. That's exactly the opposite of "leave it all in my hands". If he was doing anything *other than this* with the daykill role, VSM would be right, but as it is? No.

The only good point VSM's made is that Rat might be third party, which is... valid, but we have no particular reason to believe that over believing that he's town. Rather the opposite, since he's come out from the start and is using his power in a protown way.

That said, VSM's generally a jumpy player, and I don't see anything particularly scummy about his paranoia. More paranoia = good. So I can't justify a vote on him at this time. With the way games have gone around here to date, believing in roles over daytalk is sadly all too understandable.

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #49 on:** February 05, 2008, 09:33:10 AM »

It's not role-CLAIMS that you believe, it's the combined results. EVERY piece of information is vitally important. Speeding up the game is a very good way to terminate valuable information before it even has a chance to come out. I stand by that.

And, like it or not, we ARE forced --completely-- to follow Rat right now. He's saying very clearly to everyone else "You cannot vote for me, and I will kill someone today" Would it have been correct vig play if I'd killed the #2 vote getter every single night in FFT Mafia?

Tie-breaker votes are fine, Rat.

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Author Topic: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia (Read 49050 times)