World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

[Corwin]

I see, Andrew. That lessens my suspicion but doesn't eliminate it outright. And using one's vote to make people talk is what it's there for, until we have a certain target. In fact, I would have been even less suspicious had LD FoS'd/voted me after unvoting smodge, instead of just mentioning me without actual commitment for a case.

On Tom: Yes, he has been more silent than I'd expect, and yes, it's hilarious to hear smodge of all people (and myself, as I haven't been all that active so far -- just not at lurker level, that's what I dispute) call Tom silent. I would certainly hope it's just an evolution of his gaming style and not a scum tactic; that's how it looks to me, especially considering what Tom's old playing style got him in previous mafia games.

On smodge: Alex looks bad, QR looks impeccable, neither statement says anything as that's just how they usually look to me regardless of alignment (aside from Touhou; what were you thinking, QR?). I don't know if it should worry me that I'm agreeing with smodge on those two. And him casting his eyes on LD makes me frown since smodge is leaving scumtells/smodge always does it and is town... bah, I keep on weighing those two.

Whatever. I don't want this day to be just about smodge. Let's hear from LD, and if she can answer to my satisfaction.

[QuietRain]

(aside from Touhou; what were you thinking, QR?).

*sighs* Everyone has off games.  That was mine.  The post restriction was REALLY throwing me off and I'd never payed a cop before.  It was a serious learning experience, believe me!

-----------------------------------------

In looking over the posts so far, more to dig through.  This is ALWAYS good. 

Seems that Lynch All Lurkers thing only ended with the loss of a townie (two, really, since it drove us right into night), so I'm going to let that one lie for the moment.

Sadly, this is often the case.  But frankly taking the chance on losing a townie who doesn't care enough/have enough time to play the current game when it also might net a scum who's having trouble playing both sides of the fence is usually a good gambit.  Sadly, every scum we've had has been far too wise to lurk so noticably as to get caught.  But if we STOP going after LAL, we allow scum the option of falling back into the mindset that they can sit back and not participate without much repurcussion.  So, we keep the warning there for them, even if it does seem to cost us way more townies than scum (*sad eyes*).

Now, for the arguments on LD, I'm...torn.  I can see newbie who's not used to smaller games where each vote is so much more precious.  I mean over in VtM 3 votes is just halfway to lynch.  It's easy to get confused.  BUT, when she does post, she tends to be very thoughtful and insightful...something I generally do NOT attribute to the common newbie.  My read is neutral which is abhorant.  I'll be paying close attention until that clears up for me.

I DO agree with Corwin's remarks that removing your vote was odd.  With just our two votes, he was only halfway to hammer.  If two people quick jumped on the train and hammered him, that's two people that would likely get impaled the next day for being scum.  Especially since everyone was watching so closely.  Unless you're no longer thinking that Smodge is scum, keeping your vote on the scummiest is ALWAYS preferable when you're only up to the halfway mark.

Not paying attention? Classic scumtell.

And newbietell.  If we're going to brand something, let's at least brand it all it can be, hmm?  It could be a scumtell.  It could just be a new player inattentiveness.  Not satying either is a good thing, of course, just saying...

[Carthrat]

Hokay. Smodge's random vote for Ciato being suspicious + Ciato dying after calling him out on that. I don't think this is really true. Ciato did OMGUS Smodge, after all, and then seemed to contemplate that he misspoke. So I don't think she was really pressuring him that day. And thus I don't think Smodge, were he scum, would kill her over that.

Frame? Eh, possible. Ciato is dead because scum hate Ciato anyway? More possible. I am hesitant to draw many (any) conclusions from this.

More likely reason for Smodge being scum? Ok, I can see how his random vote might be odd... only, well, the game was still kind of in the random day 1 stage. I've seen Smodge pull the whole 'Well, time to retract my random vote!' thing before (in Touhou, iirc). So... I think this is actually in-character for him.

Hate for constant references to SERIOUS MODE as distinct from JOKEVOTING MODE, I've ranted about this in the discussion thread, though.

<->

Another thing that caught my eye. We've got EvilTom going to Smodge that 'you're asking me for thoughts?! perhaps because you don't want to give your own!' right after Smodge made a fairly sizable post- and you haven't actually said too much today, either. I don't think Smodge is out of line there.

Still, I don't really think either he or Smodge qualify for the hated label of 'Lurker'. Frankly, I don't think we have any lurkers at this point, and I'll need to give some time before I consider using that word on someone again. (I mean, even I'm only posting just now.) More content from... uh.. EVERYONE!

<->

Addendum. Smodge, you mentioned that you think my opinions are usually accurate. Frankly, I see this as more an attempt to curry favour with me than anything else, given the games you've participated with me in. Now... of course I want people to look at my arguments and agree with me. But I like to think you're going to read the argument and actually understand it's value instead of just going 'yep, Rat's awesome'. (And I AM awesome. But still. You see what I'm getting at?)

[Smodge13]

Another big post when i finish eating, i knocked off work early today.

[EvilTom]

Why do you keep doing that? You could just... make the post. It seems like you might be trying to pad out your postcount a bit, or at least presence. I don't really see the point o.o

[Ranmilia]

Hmmkay.  To me this is shaping up to be Tsukihime 2, without the role insanity - in other words, the game's being obscured by inexperienced players (Smodge, Tom and Ladydoor) and folks what don't post (Strago). 

I think Smodge looks bad because of his confusing stance on whether or not he wanted to leave a serious vote on someone day 1 and how.  And, admittedly, Ciato's death is increasing my suspicions here.  But that could[/b] be a scum frame and odd newbie town play.  (Also, you think Rat's opinion is usually accurate?  What?  Rat is ALWAYS SCUM, he's been town in like one or two games, ever.)

I think Dread Thomas looks bad because of his antagonistic attitude and what I perceive as a lack of content in his posts.  (Edit, see the one he just made!)  But this could just be odd newbie town play.

I think LadyDoor looks bad because of her not committing to cases and her apparent confusion on the effects of her vote (how exactly do you not notice that you're putting someone at -1 to hammer?!).  But as seen in Touhou, this could just be odd newbie town play. 

And I have no real read, or slight townie read, on QR, Rat and Corwin, since they're arguing well compared to the other three.  But their cases are all safe ones that could easily be made by scum, so my perception of them as townie is logically unfounded. 

This irritates me and I have no real idea where to go.  This is C9, there are two scum, odds are reasonably high that at least one of them is in fact in the less experienced players.  I could make a case on all three of them for seeing their actions as a reasonable result of scum coordination, though.  At the moment I'm keeping with Smodge, on the grounds of oddity with his saying "Rat is usually right" statement pushing him up a little further than the rest of the crowd on my list.

[EvilTom]

The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum, it is because I have nothing really to produce.

This irritates me and I have no real idea where to go.

Is what you said, and I basically agree. Rather than just doing a summary like you've done, I've chosen to only make points which are new or relevant. I was the first/only one to provide a defense to Lady Door, after being the first one to attack her over the Smodge thing. It's rather.. obscuring to say I've lacked content. I have lacked *volume*, but as far as content goes, I think I've made ample contributions.
Antagonistic? Things are boring around here and we have no leads; poking people is the only way to get information. Sniping at me for doing this after complaining about the lack of leads seems rather lame.

And I'd hardly call my play newbie :\  In fact, I'd say that was rather antagonistic of you; except your attack was ad hominem.

[Ranmilia]

Apparently, I fail at tags.

Tom, I'm talking about your tone.  Look at your latest post:  "sniping," "complaining," before that a lot of biting sarcasm directed at Smodge and a one liner slamming LadyDoor.  This is all quite inflammatory. 

Your day 1 posts are more civil, but also more worrisome in terms of arguments, with you wanting someone to "pursue it further" when Strago was at -1 just for lurking, and contrasting that to your threat of moving to me to equalize trains earlier.  You dismissed that as a tangent, and I've so far disregarded it as such, along with your one liners, but I'm beginning to think that may have been a mistake.  The "I'm not scum" claim in your last post doesn't help either.   On further thought, I think this pushes you up over others for me, so

##Unvote: Smodge
##Vote: Dread Thomas

I absolutely understand the troubles of trying to produce content in this game, and indeed much of what you have said today about Lady and Smodge is relevant, but as I said before, those are easy cases to make both ways, and the manner in which you have said things gives me pause. 

[Corwin]

While I agree with Alex re: Tom's relative lack of content and re: Tom's tone...

The "I'm not scum" claim in your last post doesn't help either.

Alex, please show me where he says it or states he's town in his last post. I looked at it and the one before it, and even glanced earlier at the one before that. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. I have more to say on this, but first, I'd like to see whether I'm missing something or not.

[Carthrat]

If we're going to split hairs...

The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum,

I believe this is what he's referring to. It's implied that he's saying "I am not scum!"

[Corwin]

Huh. I parsed this sentence entirely differently, and "The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum, it is because I have nothing really to produce." doesn't really jump at me as "Hay I'm not scum guys" but as a "I have nothing to produce, being scum or not has nothing to do with that."

Well, in that case, I don't really want to pursue anything against Alex since he wasn't alone in reading Tom's post that way. I still disagree that it's the way Tom intended his post to be read, though, and would like Tom himself to weigh in here. "is not because I'm scum, but <second clause goes here>" is hardly an "I'm not scum" claim, so Alex does seem to be overstating his case. He often does that, though, so eh.

Also. Tom, there's nothing preventing you from looking for a case yourself. If it's too quiet, then people certainly won't be posting more if everyone shares your outlook. Part of the criticism I had for LD applies to you as well, so yeah.

[Smodge13]

"Rat is usually right" statement pushing him up a little further than the rest of the crowd on my list.

Addendum. Smodge, you mentioned that you think my opinions are usually accurate.

Usually Scum or Town Rat's posts usually contain few flaws, even when he's scum he makes valid arguments (sure their aimed at the wrong people usually) but still their usually valid, the comment was more of a "hey rat post something big" than anything else, usually in the other games when i say something along the lines he posts with a minor attack on me, but then has a fairly lengthy post.

However this is disturbing me slightly

 At the moment I'm keeping with Smodge, on the grounds of oddity with his saying "Rat is usually right" statement pushing him up a little further than the rest of the crowd on my list.

This makes me look bad to you Alex

So, okay, serious time GET, I guess.  Gutclaims are not good, as a rule, but I've learned the hard way as scum that Ciato's are right an astonishing amount of the time... when she's got a seed of reason backing them up.

But this isn't?

Ciato didn't have much reason except for the fact that a jokevote put her on 2, it was OMGus which you often tell us not to do, yet you then not only support it, but claim it as valid reasoning?

To me this is shaping up to be Tsukihime 2, without the role insanity - in other words, the game's being obscured by inexperienced players (Smodge, Tom and Ladydoor)

We won Tsukihime despite it all, comments like this only make me more tempted to vote for you, however you don't look the worst to me at the moment, so i'm holding my vote off you.

Actually on top of this.
Ciato's

Wow, two votes on me already. A most disturbing train, I must say.

Yet at the same time, Alex had 2 votes on him.
So if training Ciato makes me look bad and infact removing the vote from her because 1 it was a joke vote, and 2 i wouldn't be around to remove it later.
How come the 2nd vote on you from Rat doesn't make him look bad?

##Vote:Alex
Too many contradictions from you so thats where my vote goes for now.

Now others that i'm looking at.

Tom - Setting off major Alarm bells but not as many as Alex did on the reread.
Major lack of content from Tom, however this does fit in with a discussion we were having before this game started.
As Newbies from playing DL mafia both of us were discussing how we were more and more tempted to lurk, because even when we are town, no matter how hard we try to help out it tends to make things worse.
This is the reason and ONLY reason i am not taking Toms lurkage as a scumtell.
However this comment.

The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum

Really does bring back memories of Tsukihime.
Tom regardles off whether you have nothing to produce or not, look for it, if everyone took the same passive playstyle then scum would just float on by and never get caught.
Town need to make discussion, even if it IS discussion at who is not talking.
Seems to me like Tom's forgotten some of his early game lessons.
As for Pot/Kettle situation, if anyone wants me to give thoughts on anything in particular just ask i'm not trying to lurk or anything, just limited time and i am doing what i can to make that time count.

[EvilTom]

Corwin, it was intended exactly as you read it. The most obvious way to read it.

I'm not sure if Alex is trying to make me look bad on purpose here, or if he just really wants me to be scum and accidentally read it that way. In either case, he didn't quote me directly, he chose to paraphrase something into something it isn't.

It's this kind of misrepresentation that really annoys me. He made a valid point in his case about me, that I haven't produced a huge amount of points. But he also padded it out with a bunch of bogus ones; yes, I've been a bit snarky. Does that in any way point to me being scum? No. Show me a correlation between a player's perceived mood in text and alignment, and then I'll believe you. And prompted along by making it look like I claimed not to be scum. Why would I even say that, it doesn't serve me any good.

It also looked like that his post and vote may be there to provoke me. I'm not sure if this is typical aggresive Alex, or typical aggresive scum.

I'll continue to withhold my vote, but Alex is actually giving me something to be suspicious about now, which is nice in a way.

Ninja'd by Smodge, will post this before reading it 'cos laptop is slow and net keeps dropping out >.<

[Carthrat]

Anyway. Alex is describing this as Tsukihime 2.0 and commenting that things are being obscured by newbie players.

Thing is, the only *real* newbie player present is LadyDoor. What SHE'S done is lurk. I will totally be all over her if she keeps up with the lurkerering by the time I get up tomorrow (and it's closer to deadline.)

<->

I don't think Smodge is behaving terribly scummy. That is to say, I believe the scumminess of his early vote on day 1 has been severely overstated, and he has not been acting out of character at all. I really, really dislike his play (it's very reliant on others, as has been pointed out), but it's what he does. All the time. He needs to stop. I think being conscious of his own ineptitude could be seen as a good thing? Maybe?

<->

Every time I read what Dread Thomas says I want to vote for him more. I'm troubled that despite this, it's.. well, like Smodge, he usually seems to be inflammatory in his posts and always acts as if it's ridiculous that anyone could conceive of him as scum. In particular...

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black. I'm sure I've been more active than you.
By the way, it's "more quiet" or "quieter", not both. Though, I've corrected your grammar, so according to TouHou mafia I must be scum >.>

You say you'd like to hear my thoughts? Why is that exactly? Does asking for my thoughts mean you don't have to provide your own?

My thought on Lady Door are a few minor slipups, but that doesn't convince me that she's scum. I don't buy into the whole 'bad play = scum or bad town so lynch both' thing. So nothing there from me yet.

THIS POST seems just.. so snarky and pointlessly mean. He's also acting here like it's a great sin to question him.

<->

Ultimately, we're stuck. We've got to realise that both Smodge and EvilTom are no longer newbies, even if they continue to act like some. They shouldn't get away with this. And in most games, they don't. Like Alex has said, it's easy to make safe cases on them (as has been done) and doing so won't shake things up at all. So.

<->

*Nitori spins... 180.

<->

##Vote: QR

LET'S DO IT. QR! You posted, what, three times in day 1? One self-confessed jokevote on me, asking what a meme is, and defaulting to LAL! Day 2! You vote Smodge to get things started! Well, get this: I don't think Smodge is scum! I think Smodge is.. well.. Smodge! You are also keeping a CLOSE EYE on Lady Door for not being the typical newbie... well, I don't think she's playing any worse than I was the first few times around (I know I was scum shut up I don't mean it like that), so obviously, our expectations for average newbie play are probably lower than what's actually likely.

Does her being a newbie actually have any bearing on anything? At all? We should judge things on their merits. So far she's seemed competent enough to me with only lurkerness being relevant. Her extra vote seems more reckless than having some kind of malicious intent.

I keep reading her posts (well.. post) and I keep reading reiterations (a reiteration) of how standard play should be. Alex has come forward with the relatively bold statement that this game is similar to Tsukihime and that we're messed up between bad play (not calling them newbies anymore) and easy arguments.

I'd like her to explain her thoughts on Lady Door a bit more concisely and without prejudice for newbieness or not. As an experiment, if nothing else. I'd also like her to reconsider her vote for Smodge, given that I believe he is playing like he normally does, and that the WIFOM over Ciato's death is meaningless.

<->

NINJA'D THREE POSTS I DON'T CARE i'll read them momentarily.

[Smodge13]

Why do you keep doing that? You could just... make the post. It seems like you might be trying to pad out your postcount a bit, or at least presence. I don't really see the point o.o

Oh addressing stuff like this.
Only reason i say it is so noone turns around and says "Smodge has been on for 30 minutes without posting he must obviously be lurking" same reason i post my next posting time, if people know when to expect my next post, they are less inclined to accuse me of lurking when i'm doing RL stuff.
I can stop it if it really annoys people, its more just aknowledging that i'm here paying attention and will post soon, this way you guys know i'm not lurking.

[Carthrat]

Usually Scum or Town Rat's posts usually contain few flaws, even when he's scum he makes valid arguments

You, sir, are insane! Just.. insane! This attitude is stupid! It is far too trusting! RECONSIDER! If you want me to post, yell at me to post, and don't try and suck up to me!

HOWEVER, you have indeed caught an interesting point out of Alex, that is that he is willing to be trusting Ciato for being great even as he slams you for trusting me! (The fact that Ciato is, in fact, great and town like every game nonwithstanding. She's my polar opposite.) Well done! Alex, explain yourself!

Tsukihime was won due to you, as I recall, going "Well, I've thought this is a good idea. Let's do the opposite!" and it turned out to be right, i.e. not because you figured your role was double-edged or anything. Besides, whether Tsukihime  was won or not is meaningless, we all know just *how* it was played, and that's what's important when you compare arguments in one game to another.

The vote for me on Alex does NOT look bad because there was a good and solid reason behind it, that being that ALEX SUCKS and thinks I am always scum. Your vote, however, was totally random and just happened to land on someone who already had a vote. I don't actually think this is bad.

[EvilTom]

As for Pot/Kettle situation, if anyone wants me to give thoughts on anything in particular just ask i'm not trying to lurk or anything, just limited time and i am doing what i can to make that time count.

Just because you've got a valid reason (limited time) for lurking, doesn't mean you aren't scum. I'm not saying you are scum, but I'm just saying that we're not going to give you a free pass. Well, I'm certainly not.


<-->

Well now. It seems that everybody enjoys taking my quote out of context. I wasn't going to bother talking about it at first (because it seemed like a waste of time), but it's becoming an issue that needs to be resolved, and quickly.

First of all, it is not:

The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum

It is also not:

The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum,

And it is definately not:

"I'm not scum"

It is:

The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum, it is because I have nothing really to produce.

I'm sorry to waste time over this, but I'm getting sick of people making it look like I've said things I haven't. The way I said it was not direct, but that's simply how I write.
See, I did it again. I could have said "I don't write directly" or "I write indirectly". But I don't. And I'm not going to change the way I write just because people like to misquote and misrepresent me. So please, in the future, get it right.

[Carthrat]

Oh, please.

Smodge hasn't been lurking. This is basically true. I can point to clear and specific examples of where he has made posts, and I know his work-related excuses are valid. Give it up. Stop making these lame dire threats of "WELL YOU WON'T GET A FREE PASS, GOODSIR!"

I am not taking your quote out of context! Also, you bitch about this way too much! You said something that is basically reminding us all that you're not scum. You are also ignoring the whole concept of implied statements, like...

"Haha, EvilTom plays like a newbie." (Try to guess what I'm implying.)

I could have put this nicely! I'm NOT because I think your defence was WEAK. If your quote was indeed taken out of context, then you need to WATCH YOUR WORDS more carefully and CONSIDER how others may read them. Yes, that means YOU must adjust YOUR playing style. Not that EVERYONE ELSE must THINK DIFFERENT to accomdately YOU playing BADLY.

[Ranmilia]

Regarding Tom's "I'm not scum" statement, see what Rat bolded.  No, obviously he's not jumping on a rock and shouting "Hey guys I'm not scum!", it's just dropped in there.  But he did still drop it into his language, and that's a psychological tipoff. 

In a lot of games now, I've been getting attacked for paraphrasing people and not directly quoting them.  Perhaps we should hash this out:  paraphrase is good.  The quote is right there for anyone to look at.  It's obvious which post and what statement I'm talking about.  Paraphrasing it into what it means to me helps clarify what I see in it.  This gives town information on my thought processes, and helps others see what I'm talking about if they didn't see it themselves, like Cor here.  Paraphrase is a *good* thing and people need to do it more. 

If you want to claim it's misrepresentation, that's your call to make, but have a reason for making it.  The author of a statement doesn't get to go back and say "Oh I MEANT it THIS way, so that's what it means and if you dare to draw any other connotation from it, that's scummy misrepresentation!"  That's completely absurd. 

In this specific case, Tom's language included an implication of his alignment, which strikes me as a possible psychological scumtell because I believe that scum are more likely than town to subtly include language like that in their posts.

As for what Smodge is poking me on - yes, I do indeed find "Rat is usually right" less valid than "Ciato is usually right."  If you look at the game history I'm referring to, Rat's been scum a majority of the games he's played in, while I have personally played games against Ciato as scum where she seemed to be almost psychic in picking out the scumteam, and I've seen her repeat this as a mod/observer in other games.  Rat's historical arguments often read logically, but since they are from scum-Rat, if anything this says that his apparently logical judgments should NOT be trusted.  The timing of the claims is also different.  My statement came as a start to serious day 1 discussion, where a Ciatogut is about as good as anything else to get things going.  Your statement is on day 2, when there's a case getting pressed on you, and could easily be read as an attempt to curry favor with Rat to save your skin.

You're right that I haven't pursued the two votes on me.  Both were clearly jokevotes, and Rat had a valid reason (my jesting provocation) for putting the second on me.  Yours seemed odder than his.

Also, both of the above points are based on what I picked to kickstart discussion on day 1, which is always pretty arbitrary. 

Back to Tom, excessive snarkyness is bad, because it makes people shy away from attacking you for fear of you striking back and turning it into an OMGUSfest.  It's a layer of armor for yourself with a psychological rather than logical basis, which is the sort of thing scum tend to do to protect themselves.  Claiming that my vote on you is meant to provoke you shows this same mentality, "How dare you vote for me, that's a provocation and I'll vote you back!"  Snarkyness is also bad play in general for how it sours people's moods, this is a game of lying and treachery, but that doesn't mean you have to be uncivil about it. 

I somewhat agree with Rat on wanting to see more from QR, she does seem to have the least content - though she does have a legitimate schedule excuse for not being around at the same times as the Aussie-Cor-Alex crew which is surely influencing this perception.

[EvilTom]

Ok, just to appease the Smodge:

Carthrat - Cold hard logic. It's been handy here and there, and the reasoning is good for town. If he's town, yay. If he's not, then it will show eventually (because he's being so handy).

Smodge - I know he's been absent a lot; personally I make nothing exciting of his jokevotes (I detest the whole concept of joke votes, but what I hate more is when people take them seriously later on). That is to say, I don't even consider them. So far he seems to be helping everyone along; I'd be concerned if people gave him a free pass because of his excuse, but I have nothing to complain about so far.

QR - Is someone I respect for leet haxxor skills in mafia, but hasn't really done it here. I'd like to see more.

Ciato - See QR. But exams > mafia. See Smodge re: free pass.

Lady Door - I'm not giving a free pass for newby, but, like I already said earlier: I didn't think she made any aggregious errors... just small mistakes that are easy for anyone to make. I proded her early saying something like (classic scumtell), but that was just to provoke explanations out of her, which we received. I was reasonably satisfied by them.

Alex - I already posted about this, like, 5 minutes ago. I don't like it.

Corwin - Well, he pointed out that Alex was misrepresenting me by not quoting, which earns him points in my book. Then again, if I were scum, I'd probably defend EvilTom too, incase he OMGUSed me or something. Not really sure at this point, but I'm not feeling any scum.

Me - I'm in a moderately bad mood. I just got killed by Dark Ifrit. Again. I'm sorry for being snarky; snarky people are not nice, but they're not automatically scum. And just by saying something like that, does NOT mean I'm saying "I'm not scum".
Have I been lurking? Maybe slightly. But, I haven't felt I had anything much substantial to post. But to avoid that..

I posted all this crap. I don't feel it actually helped anything, but hopefully now that I've posted some 'content' (a bit of sarcasm there, 'cos I don't really consider random summaries to be content, and I'd be wary of anyone giving out free passes in exchange for blurbs) maybe people will stop calling me a lurker. Let's see how many times I got Ninja'd... only one.

Right, Carthrat wants me to explain the whole thing further.
About the 'I'm not scum' crap. He basically wants us all to waste more time on this. Fantastic.

Example Statement: "The reason I am not using Times New Roman is not because I am scum, it is because I don't like that font."
Now, the point I am trying to make here, is that it is a fallacy to assume that people who don't use Times New Roman are scum. Do you understand where I'm going with this?
"He's not using the font, he must be scum!" is wrong.
"He's not posting content, he must be scum!" is also wrong. This is what I was alluding to.
I was not saying "I'm not scum". I was saying that it is incorrect logic to assume that I am scum just because I haven't posted new content, especially when Alex admitted to doing the same in basically the same post.

The reality is that everyone is jumping over this small wording issue, as usual, because nobody has anything to go off. If you really think that I'm scum because I worded something in a certain way... well... I've got news for you.

you're not scum

Thanks! See what happens when you take people out of context when quoting them? Gee, I guess you should have been more careful with your wording, you suck at this game.

[Ranmilia]

Tom's example there perfectly illustrates what I'm saying, by the by.  The general statement "X, not because I am scum, but because..." is language more likely to be used by scum than by town.  This is the entire reason why alignment claims are scummy, scum tend to do them to reinforce people's psychological perception of them as town. 

[EvilTom]

The general statement "X, not because I am scum, but because..." is language more likely to be used by scum than by town. 

Why? Do you have any proof of that? Or are we supposed to just believe you?

[EvilTom]

What I mean to say by that, is that I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.

I've phrased wording like that in.. a bunch of other mafia games on DL, and I've been town in all of them. I'm saying that your theory doesn't work.

[Corwin]

Whoo, caught up. Tom, I think I'm with Rat in that it's not everyone else that needs to change, but you. Using arguments along the lines of 'I've done this and was town several times, clearly this isn't a scumtell' is incorrect, because you're using your private case to generalize things, while Alex (and Rat&smodge, to a point) are seeing you as the exception to the rule rather than proof of it. Basically, in past games, you've been town despite looking scummy, so using that scummy-seeming behavior to support your case is a tad shaky, to say the least.

Discussion is interesting, at last. I'll still sit on LD with my vote to remind her she needs to respond to my concerns (and I'm decidedly not making a stern face at her not posting back at what's probably 4am for her or whatever, but it takes a lot of willpower).

[Carthrat]

Corwin, let's say you're not voting for LD. She's *not around right now*. Other people are. Who else would you be voting for?

Tom, you pointed out that I made the same kind of tell as you. What does this tell you about me?  I'm interested in what you, and not what anyone else thinks about this (nothing stopping you posting but I'm not hunting for your responses.)