World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

[Ranmilia]

Wow, badly ninja'd.  The above post is in response to QR.

[Ranmilia]

On Alex: I'm very concerned with his attitude of "you sound like scum to me, so I'm going to make it sound like you're scum to everyone else". This is not helpful town play.

This too.  If someone looks like scum to me, you better believe I'm going to tell everyone else what I'm seeing in their posts and why I think they're scum.  As far as I know this is the definition of helpful town play.

[QuietRain]

Saying that something is how you read it rather than 'they said this', it would make your interpretations much more clear, yes, Alex.

[Ranmilia]

Well, then, tack "by my reading" onto the front of every paragraph in all my posts.  As should be implicitly done for everyone's posts.  More skepticism, less absolutism!

[Carthrat]

guys, this is all very well, but at the moment we have like.. three minutes? LD, if you're reading this, drop everything you're posting and vote now, seriously, we'll hear what you've got to say afterwards, there's just no time.

[EvilTom]

There's a difference between telling people about it (which is good!) and misquoting/misrepresenting (which is bad!).

But with like, 1 minute to go, looks like I'm dead anyway.

Uh, roleclaim? I'm just regular town.

GG, now I can get back to modding VtM in a few hours which is a lot more fun than being strung up.

I reckon: CRat and Alex are scum, followed by Smodge. If I'm horribly wrong on these things.. well.. no surprise there.

Oh geez, every time I press post, I get ninja'd.  This is three times in a row.

[Carthrat]

AH GEEZ GOD WHY

Alex if you're here, LD is being gay and not posting and I can't expect either QR or Tom to change votes. QR doesn't look that great lately, I'd rather kill TOM, WHAT like no time##Unvote, ##Vote: QR

[Lady Door]

... okay, well, there's no way in hell I can come up with a coherent argument for or against anyone in the time left.

If you want to hear about the how, wheres and whys, that's obviously going to have to wait. At this point? I don't see the reason for voting EvilTom. I do not believe he is scum. My reading so far -- and it's still back in the earlier pages, so things could easily have changed while I was in class -- leads me to go with Corwin (it's NOT OMGus, I'll explain later) or QR.

More writing after the hammer and flip. Hate 24 hour days, especially during the school week. >_<

##VOTE Corwin

[AndrewRogue]

Teh hammer time, I do believe.

[Ranmilia]

Wait, what?  Votecount please?

[AndrewRogue]

To clarify. I was trying to specify the time part there. Time's up and all.

[AndrewRogue]

Smodge13 (0): Alex, QR, LadyDoor
EvilTom (2): Carth, Alex, Carth, QR
Carthrat (0):
Corwin (1): QR, LadyDoor
QR (2): Carth, Smodge, Carth
Alex (0): Smodge
Lady Door (1): Corwin

Congrats. Sudden Death. You have one hour. Whoever takes the vote lead dies. Otherwise, AIM decides.

[EvilTom]

Well, QR can't remove her vote from me. I don't blame her for that.

Which only leaves Alex. Who's vendetta against me hasn't ended yet, apparently.


Umm... I'm just a poor innocent towny with a wife and kids? I really have no idea what to say here. I feel bad about trying to incriminate QR to save myself, because she hasn't looked terribly bad to me. On the other hand, I know I'm town, and I don't know her alignment, so I'm not going to suicide or anything.

[AndrewRogue]

Mrghle. Getting dragged out to the last second sucks. There actually is a hammer/modkill, so please be silent.

[AndrewRogue]

First and foremost, sorry about this. *general apologetic bow* I missed a vote... a fact which negated the sudden death. In addition, QR also told someone her alignment, which necessitated a Mod Kill. Since she was also lynched at the time, I let the lynch take precedence.
---

Alas, back and forth the arguments raged, until a voice rose in the back.

"Hey, she seems to be supporting the killers!"

It was a shuffle of votes, shouting and abuse rolled out, until QR was finally dragged to the makeshift gallows and dropped. From her pockets fell a series of papers, all detailing why Rogues need AR/Hemo back, written in crude English and netspeak. A player, for sure.

QR, (TOWN COP) has been lynched.

Smodge13 (0): Alex, QR, LadyDoor
EvilTom (2): Carth, Alex, Carth, QR
Carthrat (0):
Corwin (1): QR, LadyDoor
QR (3): Carth, Smodge, EvilTom, Carth
Alex (0): Smodge
Lady Door (1): Corwin

Night actions please

[AndrewRogue]

Alas, having once more put themselves to rest, our intrepid wannabe devs woke up, somehow knowing that they'd lose another of theirs.  As such, it wasn't surprising to find that Carth was... well... MIA. The only thing left in his wake? A note that read "LOL, the little Retadin ran away!"

The worst can be presumed.

Carthrat, temp Paladin rep (TOWN), has been ganked.

Day 3 ends in 48 hours. CORRECTION: It has been brought to my attention that, considering the situation, the deadline should be lifted. As such, it has been.
 
YOU ARE IN LYLO.

WITH FIVE REMAINING, IT TAKES THREE TO LYNCH.

[EvilTom]

Well... crap. Obviously we're going to have to be careful with votes, one in the wrong place will cause scum to gank us. Blah... we're getting pwned. Cop and doc gone, and all suspicion is probably still on me from the end of yesterday, and LYLO. Not looking good.
Carthrat more or less saved me at the end of yesterday (though I have no idea why), and then he gets NKed. I wonder if he was somehow onto something? I have no idea. I'm going to have to go back and read through things again.

[Lady Door]

I'm trying out this new thing where I don't write everything I have to say in one post, since it tends to take me a long time to read through the thread and put it together, so... multiple posts in short order from me. I'm sorry I didn't figure this out BEFORE the deadline. >_<

First off: terrific. It's not like it could've gone any other way the minute QR flipped townie (and cop to boot, dammit), but LYLO is still for the sad-making.

Belated explanation about my last post before the deadline: I didn't buy the arguments against Tom, and I couldn't see why QR got votes stacked on her so quickly. I said "Corwin and QR" and then voted Corwin because I was picking out some really bothersome things about him, but QR was just someone I needed to look at since she'd picked up the majority vote in the time I was gone.

And now... QR possibly having a cop read that she was edging around declaring for the sake of protecting role identity kinda makes the weird behavior that had me looking at her sideways make sense.  I have NO IDEA what started smodge on QR's case, though. Because Alex's arguments made sense to him, I guess? "Alex brings up some very good points about her" is all smodge says about why he votes for her, and even then he follows it up with "but she seems to be doing what she always does anyway." That puts smodge on my radar at the moment, but I'll put that up after I explain why Corwin was on my list.

Fake edit: Oh yes. And why Tom wasn't/isn't on my list. Hi Tom.

[Lady Door]

So, I find myself almost two hours after I said I was going to put other things up and I'm still writing. So here's a warning: LOTS O' TEXT TO FOLLOW.

[Lady Door]

Response to Corwin (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=363.msg7558#msg7558):

I didn't see a reason to provoke Alex. Just because I don't agree with someone doesn't mean they're automatically suspicious to me that early into things. If that's a playing error, fine, I've noted it for memory. I was still more interested in hearing from the people I hadn't seen much content from, a la my vote for smodge for his absent presence (by which I mean largely empty posts, but more of them).

My response to Tom was snarky, and it's because I got frustrated. There isn't anything I can say to defend myself from a comment like that which doesn't make me look more suspicious, so I was essentially asking exactly what it is he wanted from me, since my answer was so unsatisfactory as to provoke what Tom said.

NOTHING HAPPENED in between my original vote and my unvote that warranted shifting my vote. I still wanted to vote for smodge and my removal of the vote was just to prevent the mechanics of the game from working against him, not allowing him a chance to defend himself/speak up. I can just imagine what might have been said if I HAD unvoted and then moved my vote to someone else. "Oh, she's vote hopping at the slightest provocation! SCUM TELL!"

I know you're in another timezone a world away, I just don't know which one. "At this point" was meant to indicate that because I hadn't heard from you since noon previous, and because the days are 24 hours long, the time when you might possibly return to speak was close to the deadline.

I wasn't ignoring that WoW was closed when I saw you in VtM. I wasn't expecting you to have posted at noon. I was expecting that, because you hadn't posted by the time I made the original comment, and your last post was the previous noon except for the activity in VtM, your timezone would prevent you from coming back until shortly before the next deadline.

I wasn't calling you out for being missing, I was pointing out that you WOULD be missing for a good chunk of the remaining time. I think bringing VtM into it was an awkward way to indicate I knew you were around, just hadn't been to WoW. Maybe I didn't check timestamps versus game open time, maybe I was just vaguely pointing out that you were still alive just not active for whatever reason (this case being sleep + game being closed). I don't remember anymore.

I'm not sure why it's so relevant, since I didn't say you were lurking, just that I was worried about not having heard from you. I didn't vote you. I didn't say "Hey, Corwin's not posting! SUSPICIOUS!" I just... commented on the last time you'd posted, since just about everyone else had.

[Lady Door]

Re: why not Tom

The first vote on Tom is from Alex, pushed over other contenders because of an awkward sentence. I understand why it is something that might trigger a close look, but I think it got waaaay more mileage than it deserved. I read it the way Corwin and EvilTom explained it, and I didn't see any subtext such as Alex suggests.

Aside from that, then, the reason the train started on Tom was because he referred to lynched-Ciato in his post and this is an error scum's made before? Firstly, as one who hasn't played elsewhere, reference to other-game-behavior irks me. The most compelling point seems to be from

Also it's a great thing to do if you're scum and don't know what to say... as long as you remember who's alive when you go back through the thread.

and that's pure out-of-game reasoning. Beyond that: why? I see it equally town as scum error (that is, completely neutral) because... well... why wouldn't scum remember who they'd NK'd? Why wouldn't town remember who'd been NK'd? Do you see how circular that gets? I see equal reasons for both forgetting and find it kind of hard to draw conclusions from it either way.

No one else really seems to come up with any compelling reasons to read him as scum. Maybe I was being too forgiving of his errors because I could see how easy it would be to make mistakes like that without it corresponding to scum slipping up. That wouldn't've been very compelling in his favor yesterday, I don't think, but honestly he simply looked less likely than QR's quirkiness or Corwin to me. Still looks less compelling than Corwin. Might even be less so than other people. Dunno, have to get around to looking at them. >_>

[Lady Door]

Re: my vote on Corwin

Well I obviously had to go back over Corwin's posts and arguments in the midst of my battle with him*, and a few things stuck out to me.

*This is actually why I was around on the board and didn't post until right at the deadline. I was stupid. That is the main reason I'm trying to break up my posting. Yes, that means that these posts I've been making might otherwise have been all in one instead of separate. Scary, ain't it? >_>

Looking at QR's analysis of Corwin from Day 2. I'm trying really hard not to OMGus reflexively on people who attack me hard for newbie mistakes because I logically understand that it would be easy for scum to hide behind such things. But a third-party confirmation of how unusally hard Corwin was pushing an argument against me --

But you seem very convinced that we need to look at LD, see how your arguments are compelling and lynch her.  We'll deal with the rest later sort of mentality.  This seems more of the scum reasoning for killing off a newbie.  Why?  Because it's easier to do than going after the experienced players who will be far more likely to catch you at it.

-- makes me more confident that it might be more than my own paranoia. I haven't heard anyone else comment on this, though, and obviously QR can't bring it back, so I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.

On smodge: Alex looks bad, QR looks impeccable, neither statement says anything as that's just how they usually look to me regardless of alignment (aside from Touhou; what were you thinking, QR?). I don't know if it should worry me that I'm agreeing with smodge on those two. And him casting his eyes on LD makes me frown since smodge is leaving scumtells/smodge always does it and is town... bah, I keep on weighing those two.

Whatever. I don't want this day to be just about smodge. Let's hear from LD, and if she can answer to my satisfaction.

I understand why he wanted to hear from me, but there's something wrong with the sentence I put in bold. Specifically, why on earth was it even brought up if it's something smodge does regardless of being scum or being town? Doesn't that make it completely irrelevant as commentary? Especially to bring it up as if it were a point of contention, about the person who's on the block, but then go "But enough about that, let's look at this other person instead!"

That's mainly why I was still on Corwin at hammertime, and why I'm still looking at him as my most likely pick.

---

I'll write more on other people tomorrow. Need sleep now.

[Corwin]

LD: Because I don't like agreeing with people who look scummy, yet people who always look scummy and end up flipping the other way lead to my confusion. I like to have other options. Smodge and Tom were feeling the pressure, you weren't, and someone had to seek an accounting from you for looking shifty. I also hardly called a crusade on you, and asked others to weigh in. Looking at your reasoning, it's still hard to see it as much beyond an OMGUS. Why? Because you quoted QR partially, and that paragraph started out with:

Now, the constant corraling back to LD I can see two ways.  Looking at you for town, it's a very good idea to get people to stop waffling and pick a flipping target.  Vote them, debate them, convince others, lynch them and move on.  So, as a townie move, I can see the logic.

In any case, I still have much I don't like about you. First, after Rat called on you to vote and decide, you show up at the last minute... and don't make a decisive vote. This is even more grating because you said QR and myself were both suspicious to you, while Tom isn't... ether QR or Tom are about to get lynched, and if there's a tie, perhaps due to Hatbot's choice. And what do you do? Effectively waste your vote. Let me reiterate. You are saying QR and myself look scummy. You're saying Tom isn't looking scummy at all. And... you don't use your last minute vote to save the person who doesn't look scummy by voting a person who does, to you, and tipping the scales.

Your own answer to my suspicions is... eh. I can understand being defensive, but you're being outright fatalistic. "Had I done that other thing you suggested I should've done which would have lessened suspicion on me, it would've actually increased it!" Err, no, you would've looked less suspicious. I said as much. You're supposed to use your vote, if only to pressure people you want to hear from (except in specific cases such as LYLO, say, or when there's a clear target). The whole "I don't remember anymore" bit doesn't work for me. My posts, which you have presumably read to answer my concerns, provided links to your own posts. If you don't remember what you've written about me, you can always follow those links back.

QR: Hadn't really looked all that scummy to me in the time I was around, except for a weirdness due to the way we kept agreeing. That made me wary of her, but I likely would've voted Tom over her when the time came. He roleclaimed vanilla. In a C9 game. What. So yeah.

[Smodge13]

Ok i don't know how big this post is going to be, we'll see as i type it.

Everyone looks scummy which makes things really dificult.

So in case i have to go eat midpost this is my summary atm
Order of scumminess for me at the moment

1. LD
2. Corwin
3. Alex
4. Tom

LD
1. puts Strago at -1, admittedly he was the leading lurker, however LD was fairly quiet day 1 (RL reasons)
2. We have here near hammer of myself Day 2

I agree smodge looks a bit scummy. Page 2, he calls out the people sitting on 1 post a piece, but at that point his 4 posts are nothing but joke vote, explanation of timing, correction, and a call out to the lurkers. How is that any better? It smells like covering by misdirection, asking us to look at the number of posts rather than what they say.

I don't agree with Alex's original reasons for voting for him since it was a jokevote, but smodge seems resigned to being lynched and preemptively asks for a chance to defend himself before that happens. I can see where he's coming from considering how long he's going to be gone, but it felt as off to me as Ciato says it was to her. Look who's dead now?

Her reasons on the near hammer in summary how it looks, 1. for calling out lurkers when im lurkerish myself, 2. because Ciato died after accusing me.
Very little reason, admittedly there wasn't much to go on but to put me at -1 to hammer because of it?

##UNVOTE smodge

Even though it's pretty clear where I stand at this point, I'll remove it to prevent anything weird happening.

She then Removes that vote despite me no longer being in hammer range anyway.

My fourth paragraph was a case of poor argument structure. It was intended to acknowledge pieces I thought looked sound in favor of smodge but to wrap up that I still felt smodge deserved the vote I was about to place (really, really mistakenly placing him at -1). Hence the "I don't agree with the jokevote, but smodge got all defensive about it and figured it could spell his doom" sentence.

Getting Defensive when your on a leading vote train with only hours to go is scummy now? i admit i was defensive but it was within reason, i wasn't going to be around for deadline and would have had no way to defend myself in a timely manner.
Finally as end of day 2 approaches, she's online but not posting, we needed people to put in opinions ASAP and she didn't post until the final moments and who does the vote go to? Corwin, who isn't even on a trian, voting that late for someone on 0 votes is just like throwing your vote away when its that close to deadline.

[Smodge13]

and Corwin posts right ebfore i do, my next posts looking at you.
i'm goign to split these in to 1 post one each person.