Author Topic: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)  (Read 3414 times)

Yoshiken

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Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« on: June 30, 2009, 04:03:44 AM »
Just to explain something quickly...
I'm essentially gonna be running two tournaments at once here, out of sheer curiosity. I'm looking to see how well each team stands on its own as well as together, so, for each round, there'll be two sections: one for the whole team battle, the other for individual matches from the teams. Hope that makes sense. If not, it hopefully will by the end of the post. ^_^
And yes, it will be hideously mismatched in some cases. That's half the point of it - see how much of a difference there is when a team can't just rely on one character.

So, Round 1 is upon us, and we start with 8 teams from Godlike~

hinode - Team Whip It Good - Godlike
 - Jessica Albert (DQ8 - Godlike/4.51)
 - Feena (G1 - Heavy/4.44)
 - Lucia (Suikos - Godlike/4.38)

Lance - Team Gender Confused - Godlike
 - Jenna Angel (DDS - Godlike/5.51)
 - Adel (FF8 - Heavy/4.17)
 - Flea (CT - Middle/3.33)

Magic Fanatic - Team "What the hell, defined genders?!" - Godlike
 - Jenna Angel (DDS - Godlike - 5.51)
 - Quina Quen (FF9 - Heavy - 3.73)
 - Lucius (FE7 - Light - 2.93)

Nephrite - Team God-Killers - Godlike
 - Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs - Godlike/5.40)
 - Ryu (BoF3 - Godlike/5.36)
 - Fei Fong Wong (XG - Heavy/4.52)

Yoshiken - Alcoholics Anonymous - Godlike
 - Jecht (FFX - Godlike/4.54)
 - Roland (DDS - Middle/3.12)
 - Ronfar (Lunar2 - Middle/2.86)

Tide - Team Heavy-turned-godlike Swordgirls - Godlike
 - Beatrix (FF9 - Godlike/4.72)
 - Celes Chere (FF6 - Godlike/4.58)
 - Eirika (FE8 - Godlike/4.46)

Lance - Obviously Compensating for Something - Godlike
 - Emelious de Pamela (G3 - Godlike/5.19)
 - Arngrim (VPs - Heavy/4.01)
 - Cloud Strife (FF7 - Heavy/3.95)

DjinnAndTonic - Dick, Jane, & Spot - Godlike
 - Sir Leopold (DQ8 - Godlike/4.40)
 - Ricardo Gomez (SH3 - Middle/3.12)
 - Jane Maxwell (WAACF - Light/2.70)

So, this is what I meant about the double-tourney thing earlier. Need votes on the following:

Team Battle:
Team Whip It Good -v- Team Gender Confused
Team "What the hell, defined genders?!" -v- Team God-Killers
Alchoholics Anonymous -v- Team Heavy-turned-godlike Swordgirls
Obviously Compensating for Something -v- Dick, Jane, & Spot

Solo Battle:
Jessica Albert -v- Jenna Angel
Feena -v- Adel
Lucia (Suikos) -v- Flea

Jenna Angel -v- Yuri Volte Hyuga
Quina Quen -v- Ryu3
Lucius -v- Fei Fong Wong

Jecht -v- Beatrix
Roland -v- Celes Chere
Ronfar -v- Eirika

Emelious de Pamela -v- Sir Leopold
Arngrim -v- Ricardo Gomez
Cloud Strife -v- Jane Maxwell


Voting closes on the 8th July. (Assuming I remember to close it~)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 12:52:52 AM by Yoshiken »

Yoshiken

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2009, 04:15:13 AM »
And, in all of that, I can vote on a grand total of 2 matches. >_>

Jecht -v- Beatrix - Think he's got the power to take this one.
Roland -v- Celes Chere - Statused.

Random Consonant

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2009, 05:45:37 AM »
Lucia (Suikos) -v- Flea

Quina Quen -v- Ryu3
Lucius -v- Fei Fong Wong

Ronfar -v- Eirika

Figures the only matches I can vote on here are the hilariously one-sided ones.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2009, 07:21:25 AM »
Team Whip It Good -v- Team Gender Confused: Whip team just has such insane amounts of offence and speed, they can completely rape Jenna's team before they've even acted for the most part. Flea is a joke since IIRC both PCs can block Confuse (resist in the case of Jess) and may well die to MT nonsense anyway (Kaboom + End of the World + Lucia's fire magic is brutal). Adel definitely does. And Bhairava is spoiled by both Feena and Jess having revival. Hilariously, I think this team even beats form-chained Jenna, since Lucia's multiacting lets her kill the fire core then nuke all the others.

Team "What the hell, defined genders?!" -v- Team God-Killers: It's just not Jenna's day. Seriously, Ryu3 AND Yuri? Ryu3 can solo some Godlike teams, Yuri using For Everyone means things get a little crazy. Fei is the weak link, as he "just" provides OHKO damage off above average speed. Well, I guess God-Killers aren't too broken, since a good MT blitz takes them out before they get a turn.

Alchoholics Anonymous -v- Team Heavy-turned-godlike Swordgirls: I really don't know why AA is Godlike. They have only one Godlike, and he's not a very good one, and the other two are just kinda... bad. Celes confuses Jecht for lulz in this match. Beatrix silences Roland and Eirika one-rounds Ronfar? Or something.

Obviously Compensating for Something -v- Dick, Jane, & Spot: Ricardo in a team match is pretty cool and forces me to look him up. Unfortunately, my kneejerk is Emelious is a bit too much, even though he's ST oriented. If Leo's team had more revival it would be another matter. This is probably the only match I can be argued on, since Ricardo could turn the tables here, maybe.

Jessica Albert -v- Jenna Angel: Jenna gets some revenge, spoiling here. One Bhairava and Jess is gone.
Feena -v- Adel: Adel sucks.
Lucia (Suikos) -v- Flea: Flea can't punish Lucia's durability. That's bad.

Jenna Angel -v- Yuri Volte Hyuga: Open to arguments, here?
Quina Quen -v- Ryu3: UM.
Lucius -v- Fei Fong Wong: LUCIUS HAS WTA AGAINST YAMIKEI

Jecht -v- Beatrix: Stone.
Roland -v- Celes Chere: UM part 2. Roland has his damage nulled in addition to the ridiculous two-division mismatch.
Ronfar -v- Eirika: Oh good lord.

Emelious de Pamela -v- Sir Leopold: Speed gap is too much, and Leo doesn't really like evade much either.
Arngrim -v- Ricardo Gomez: FINAL BLAST.
Cloud Strife -v- Jane Maxwell: Blocks ID and is ensured a good limit.

Interesting that while every team I majority voted for also won their team match to me, the team that swept is the one with the closest team match.


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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2009, 09:15:38 AM »
Team Battle:
Team Whip It Good -v- Team Gender Confused- Even with some Adel respect, they focus on taking her out first (Feena's healing could come in handy here), and then smite Jenna.
Team "What the hell, defined genders?!" -v- Team God-Killers
Alchoholics Anonymous -v- Team Heavy-turned-godlike Swordgirls
Obviously Compensating for Something -v- Dick, Jane, & Spot- Compensating has crazy, if ST offense. The damage split is insane here, especially with Emelious' speed.

Solo Battle:
Jessica Albert -v- Jenna Angel
Feena -v- Adel- Some Adel durability respect
Lucia (Suikos) -v- Flea

Jenna Angel -v- Yuri Volte Hyuga- My head hurts here.
Quina Quen -v- Ryu3
Lucius -v- Fei Fong Wong

Jecht -v- Beatrix- Unsure. Boss Beatrix has a lot more damage, Jecht has a lot more durability.
Roland -v- Celes Chere
Ronfar -v- Eirika

Emelious de Pamela -v- Sir Leopold
Arngrim -v- Ricardo Gomez
Cloud Strife -v- Jane Maxwell
...into the nightfall.

Yoshiken

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2009, 01:41:04 PM »
I really don't know why AA is Godlike. They have only one Godlike, and he's not a very good one, and the other two are just kinda... bad.

Roland has decent durability (admittedly, not much else) and MT full-healing and revival. 'Course, Silence does screw him completely...

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2009, 05:14:37 PM »
Can't vote on anything, but I am wondering what's up with the individual matches:  A single-fighter tourney in itself?  (and, if so, what happens in the final round when you have 6 left?)  Just for fun?  Or a separate team rubric?

If the last, I personally would've had all 9 possible individual confrontations between the teams, example:

Jessica vs JennaJessica vs AdelJessica vs Flea
Fenna vs JennaFeena vs AdelFeena vs Flea
Lucia vs JennaLucia vs AdelLucia vs Flea

Also I'm remembering a format from the early days of the DL.  Since I don't chat, I never played it, but it would work for this I would imagine.  (Then again, I would've made the stipulation that you have to be able to legally vote on all of your team members in order to submit a team, regardless of the format...  Ah well...)

RPGMon.

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2009, 06:36:12 PM »
Usual disclaimer that I'm willing to vote in matches in which I don't know one or two characters but can guess, like Nyarlie's, in the name of improving the number of votes.  Will note when unsure and still not vote when there's just too many unknowns.

SirDonald: RPGMon's a rather different beast, as things like MT buffs, revival, and MT damage are a lot more useless there.

Team Battle:
Team Whip It Good -v- Team Gender Confused - Closer than it looks, but still a Whip it Good victory.  Have huge Team Whip respect, but...  Adel actually spoils MT in-game thanks to Rinoa (this is where the people who spam GFs the whole game complain).  And Lucia's whip attacks tend to hit entire rows / columns, and Magic Burst is MT as is Kaboom, and Feena's Whip attacks tend to hit a large arc too...  poor Rinoa.  Luckily, Whip isn't just a blitzing team, they can stall quite well too.  Feena betrays the concept and equips a Knife for Knife Hurl (!!) hype, which I believe was ST, and does something like Time Stop -> 2x Knife Hurl on Adel -> End of the World.  Even if she had to use 3 Knife Hurls to kill Adel, Flea is a non-threat, and it sounds like Jenna is mostly ST, meaning she gets owned by the dual revival from Feena and Jess.  And even if she does have MT damage, Feena can just heal it back so long as it isn't OHKO level.
Team "What the hell, defined genders?!" -v- Team God-Killers - Slaughter.
Alchoholics Anonymous -v- Team Heavy-turned-godlike Swordgirls - Uh, this one is closer than it seems?  Sure, Jecht's support is getting flattened round 1, but I don't think Beatrix has any MT aside from her HP->1 final attack?  And Celes's Meteor is not THAT great.  I think the Yu Pagodas are getting off at least one charge each, possibly two if they beat out Celes's next Meteor.  Too much charging -> the Swordgirls are eating Ultimate Jecht Shot.  Depends a lot on if Eirika evades Jecht's first Jecht Beam; if she gets Stoned, I think the team loses, while if she evades it, the extra damage might be enough to one-round Jecht in round 2.  I rolled a die, and Jecht hit on his 50/50 shot, so going with the Alcoholics for now.
Obviously Compensating for Something -v- Dick, Jane, & Spot - Can Emelious be scared?  I think that Leopold is doubleacting his scary bark = turn skip move here, which thanks to Jane is happening at the start of the round.  So Cloud & Arngrim are only rarely getting turns.  It doesn't really matter if Emelious is immune to scariness, but I'm going to say he is since you can knock him around in game and slow his turns, which is kinda close.  Next problem: So Obviously Compensating is rarely getting turns, but Leo & Jane's actions are accounted for.  How quickly can Ricardo make something happen?  My suspicion: Not quickly enough.  Eventually Team Obviously will get lucky and somebody will resist a double-scare, then kill Jane, and then things go downhill from there.  (Or if Ricardo has revival, which I don't think he does, kill Ricardo.)

Solo Battle:
Feena -v- Adel
Lucia (Suikos) -v- Flea

Lucius -v- Fei Fong Wong - Fei tops out at Kokei for me, so he narrowly avoids complete disaster from weapon triangle disadvantage.

Jecht -v- Beatrix - Durability difference, Jecht probably 2HKOs here.
Ronfar -v- Eirika - I don't let Eirika enter commands when she fights against duelers whose name starts with "Ron," but with the endgame Lunar2 damage spike, I think Ronfar runs out of MP before killing Eirika with Anger Dice.  Once he physically attacks, he gets countered to death.  And even if we gave him boosted HP, and let him use Regen to waste turns restoring all the damage after attacking once...  then it's just a crit that kills him instead.  Ouch.

Emelious de Pamela -v- Sir Leopold
Arngrim -v- Ricardo Gomez
Cloud Strife -v- Jane Maxwell

Fun randomness in honor of what's soon to be our Godlike Champion: Team Zophar vs. the world.
Zophar losses:
Team Whip It Good - Jessica has Bounce -> Win.  More generally, this team can instantly destroy Zophar's arms before they go anyway, and thanks to duel revivers Fate Storm isn't so bad.
Team Heavy-turned-godlike Swordgirls - Eirika is doing absurd damage here thanks to the Evil Monster weakness (Maybe 2x PCHP a round?) and is dodgy enough to survive two rounds, quite possibly.  Celes likely immunes lots of the Arms attacks (the magic arm at the very least I know is elemental) and can heal Eirika or cast Haste2.  Beatrix chips in at the main body to make sure it dies even if Eirika bites it before she can get another hit in - a single Eirika double + 2 Shocks will likely do it anyway.

Zophar wins:
Team Gender Confused - No DDS, but I don't think Jenna sounds good enough to win alone; Zophar can tank a Bharavia and Fate Storm her twice to deal with the buffering or whatever.  Jenna's team is no help aside from Rinoa forcing Zophar not to use MT horror.
Team "What the hell, defined genders?!" - See above, but worse.
Team God-Killers - Ryu is eating Fate Storm here, and Yuri is probably forced to play Healer from all the MT damage incoming from the arms.  That leaves Fei to head up the offense.  As Zophar has something like 3-4 PCHP, and I don't let Fei have Yamikei, the God-killers sadly fail to live up to their name.
Alchoholics Anonymous - Two revivers / MT healers (Roland does have revival, right?  I think he was hyped for that), which is good, but White Dragon Protect isn't legal for Ronfar in the DL.  Think that Fate Storming one healer round 1 forces the other healer to revive, but the other healer's going to be hurting from the MT damage, so Fate Storm the revived healer and MT out the earlier one.  If Jecht had his MT Sword out from the beginning of the fight, Team AA would stand a chance thanks to Jecht killing all the arms, but he doesn't.  Alas.
Obviously Compensating for Something - Arngrim is a threat, so Fate Storm him.  Zophar needs to be careful with the MT to not give Cloud too good a limit, but Emelious isn't THAT good a blitzer.
Dick, Jane, & Spot - The massive MT damage wipes out Leo's friends.

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2009, 07:05:49 PM »
Forum ate my first post and I don't feel like typeing everything up again how it was so I'll just say who I think wins with no added text.

Quote
Usual disclaimer that I'm willing to vote in matches in which I don't know one or two characters but can guess, like Nyarlie's, in the name of improving the number of votes.  Will note when unsure and still not vote when there's just too many unknowns.

Team Battle:
Team Whip It Good -v- Team Gender Confused
Team "What the hell, defined genders?!" -v- Team God-Killers
Alchoholics Anonymous -v- Team Heavy-turned-godlike Swordgirls
Obviously Compensating for Something -v- Dick, Jane, & Spot

Solo Battle:

Feena -v- Adel

Quina Quen -v- Ryu3

Jecht -v- Beatrix

Cloud Strife -v- Jane Maxwell

Talaysen

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2009, 07:57:19 PM »
Team Gender Confused - No DDS, but I don't think Jenna sounds good enough to win alone; Zophar can tank a Bharavia and Fate Storm her twice to deal with the buffering or whatever.  Jenna's team is no help aside from Rinoa forcing Zophar not to use MT horror.

Just pointing out that Jenna gets two Bharavias, and double-acting doesn't bypass the form buffering in-game.

Yoshiken

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2009, 11:03:57 PM »
Or a separate team rubric?

It is, but I think either method works here. The intention is to see how much a team relies on one fighter - if it does, then it won't get through a best-of-3 match with the members fighting separately. Same applies if it's best-of-9.

And to clarify what Snowfire mentioned, seeing as I'm still working on the DDS2 topic, Roland does have revival, yes. Full healing + revival and, depending on the interp, full revival. (But he's still screwed by silence. :()

SnowFire

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2009, 11:43:11 PM »
Re Jenna: Interesting.   Don't think I'm inclined to let the "unaffected by double acts in game" thing to carry over into the DL; for instance, BoF1 bosses stop the entire round when they go into their second wind (canceling the turns of party members yet to go), but not really inclined to give them that here.  Sounds like the same thing; if you can knock Jenna to a buffer, then have double actions / other teammates knock her to the next phase / kill her before she gets that buffer turn, too bad.  (Not that it matters for the "real" team matches, as revival takes the day there.)

Re Roland: Not sure Silence matters too much here?  Checking with Yoshiken, Roland is apparently only mildly above-average in the durability deparment, and the Swordgirls have the offense to just kill Roland & Ronfar on Round 1 here, which is probably a better idea.  The stat topic lists Beatrix's Silence as only 50%, and that means she'll be using her PC form which runs the risk of getting Stoned (I think?  Stat topic doesn't list PC Bea's resistances, and I don't let her change equpiment so she'd need to have anti-Stone on already).  Though actually...  apparently Celes is mildly below average speed according to the stat topic?  Not sure I buy that, but even if so, Eirika & Boss Bea kill Roland, then Celes Berserks / Imps Ronfar.  So it comes down to Jecht & the ladies, but Jecht's had a free turn to get going, and under this setup Celes hasn't even used a Meteor to damage the Pagodas already.

Lance

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2009, 12:12:45 AM »
First, this:

Quote from: SnowFire
Usual disclaimer that I'm willing to vote in matches in which I don't know one or two characters but can guess, like Nyarlie's, in the name of improving the number of votes.


Team Battles:
Team Whip It Good -v- Team Gender Confused
Team "What the hell, defined genders?!" -v- Team God-Killers
Alchoholics Anonymous -v- Team Heavy-turned-Godlike Swordgirls
Obviously Compensating for Something -v- Dick, Jane, & Spot

Solo Battles:
Jessica Albert -v- Jenna Angel
Feena -v- Adel
Lucia (Suikos) -v- Flea

Jenna Angel -v- Yuri Volte Hyuga
Quina Quen -v- Ryu3
Lucius -v- Fei Fong Wong

Jecht -v- Beatrix
Roland -v- Celes Chere
Ronfar -v- Eirika

Emelious de Pamela -v- Sir Leopold
Arngrim -v- Ricardo Gomez
Cloud Strife -v- Jane Maxwell

Ultradude

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2009, 12:24:20 AM »
Team Battle:
Team Whip It Good -v- Team Gender Confused
Team "What the hell, defined genders?!" -v- Team God-Killers
Alchoholics Anonymous -v- Team Heavy-turned-godlike Swordgirls: Fun fact: If Jecht started the match with his MT delay sword instead of it being a limit, I might vote for AA; the only reason it doesn't help him much in Godlike is the fact that he faces many bosses (which were mostly immune to Delay in FFX, right?), though Beatrix would probably still ruin his support too fast.
Obviously Compensating for Something -v- Dick, Jane, & Spot

Solo Battle:
Lucia (Suikos) -v- Flea

Jecht -v- Beatrix: Close, but the durability barely trumps the speed and damage.
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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2009, 12:44:01 AM »
Team Whip It Good -v- Team Gender Confused - Um yeah, this is an insane blitz. This is essentially solo Jenna against a team with revival, and we all know -how- well that goes.
Team "What the hell, defined genders?!" -v- Team God-Killers - Christ, Ryu3+Yuri.
Alchoholics Anonymous -v- Team Heavy-turned-godlike Swordgirls - Jecht gets soloed by Celes. Hell, this entire team -may-. Jecht durability hype is no go for me to boot, which means the team is actually dangerously close to one-rounding him. And Roland/Ronfar just blow.
Obviously Compensating for Something -v- Dick, Jane, & Spot - Kneejerk for an actually cool match.

Solo Battle:

Jessica Albert -v- Jenna Angel - Jenna goes "lol bhairava" and Jess whimpers as she is blown up.
Feena -v- Adel - Adel respect: I don't have any.
Lucia (Suikos) -v- Flea - FLEA SLUGFESTING HYPE

Jenna Angel -v- Yuri Volte Hyuga - Eh, nah. I guess FE buffing can handle Bhairavas, and Jenna forms get OHKOed by everything under the sun.
Quina Quen -v- Ryu3 - lollerskates.
Lucius -v- Fei Fong Wong - LUCIUS EVADE HYPE AGAINST YAMIKEI THIS IS TEH WAY

Jecht -v- Beatrix - Rocky mountains.
Roland -v- Celes Chere - This match redefines the meaning of "hrhrhr".
Ronfar -v- Eirika - About as close as the last fight.

Emelious de Pamela -v- Sir Leopold - Speed/durability edge is too much. Leo dislikes the evade to boot.
Arngrim -v- Ricardo Gomez - Asplosions.
Cloud Strife -v- Jane Maxwell - JANE VS LIMIT FIGHTERS
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2009, 01:51:18 AM »
Or a separate team rubric?

It is, but I think either method works here. The intention is to see how much a team relies on one fighter - if it does, then it won't get through a best-of-3 match with the members fighting separately. Same applies if it's best-of-9.

That's kind of a simplistic way to look at it... I mean... if the team is synergy-based it means that separating the members should completely ruin their effectiveness... It's only in the case where all three team members are doing their own thing that they should win every singles match...

Votes:

Team Battle:
Team Whip It Good -v- Team Gender Confused - At least people weren't making unbalanced teams like Jenna-Souji-Yuna... It makes the excessive use of Jenna more tolerable in general.
Team "What the hell, defined genders?!" -v- Team God-Killers - Well... Yuri-Ryu3-anything is pretty ridiculous...
Alchoholics Anonymous -v- Team Heavy-turned-godlike Swordgirls - I can see the Roland argument, though this one is close.
Obviously Compensating for Something -v- Dick, Jane, & Spot - Bah, and this was my favorite team, too... >.>;; Should have chosen a higher Doglike...

Solo Battle:
Jessica Albert -v- Jenna Angel
Feena -v- Adel
Lucia (Suikos) -v- Flea

Jenna Angel -v- Yuri Volte Hyuga
Quina Quen -v- Ryu3
Lucius -v- Fei Fong Wong - Elfboy's comment on this match cracked me up in the middle of the office... >.>;;

Jecht -v- Beatrix
Roland -v- Celes Chere
Ronfar -v- Eirika

Emelious de Pamela -v- Sir Leopold - Dammit Emelious...
Arngrim -v- Ricardo Gomez
Cloud Strife -v- Jane Maxwell - Ricardo and Jane are team players, they are aren't made for solo fights against overcompensating swordsmen...

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2009, 02:06:02 AM »
Re Roland, he does NOT have revival (or even full healing IMO). Revival is on a different mantra series than healing in DDS, and Roland only starts with the latter. Additionally, the top-end healing is separated on a different part of the grid. No continuity = not legal to me. I can see allowing the healing, though I don't. Revival? Forget about it. That's as legal as allowing healing to Serph.

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2009, 01:24:10 PM »

Team Whip It Good  -v- Team Gender Confused
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Yoshiken

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2009, 04:05:40 PM »
Re Roland, he does NOT have revival (or even full healing IMO). Revival is on a different mantra series than healing in DDS, and Roland only starts with the latter. Additionally, the top-end healing is separated on a different part of the grid. No continuity = not legal to me. I can see allowing the healing, though I don't. Revival? Forget about it. That's as legal as allowing healing to Serph.

Like I said, full revival depends on the interp. Revival, however, falls right into the middle of the healing path. There's no way of following the healing path without giving him Recarm, at the very least. And full healing would be Mediarahan and a 300k Mantra on the healing path, with 600k being the max limit given on the stat topic for Mantra.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2009, 06:39:07 PM »
Wait, so because another mantra falls in the middle of the healing mantras, you give it to him? That's ridiculous.

Revival =/= healing. Different series. We don't give DDS characters different mantra series from the ones they start with.

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Rozalia

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2009, 08:17:01 PM »
Wait, so because another mantra falls in the middle of the healing mantras, you give it to him? That's ridiculous.

Have to agree with this here. Something similer would be giving Justin mana eggs becauce he requires them to learn some of his moves.

Yoshiken

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2009, 12:11:51 AM »
Wait, so because another mantra falls in the middle of the healing mantras, you give it to him? That's ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous in the slightest, it's a perfectly valid interpretation. This is the exact same logic that gives Quina a usable DL-legal Frog Drop, and I don't see why DDS2 should get screwed over just because you don't start with overpowered characters. >_>

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2009, 12:25:59 AM »
I don't really understand the Frog Drop comparison.

Roland starts with Fire, Ice, Lightning, and Healing. He does not start with Revival, which is an entirely separate category. By convention, we extend DDS characters to have either all mantras in the categories they start with (your view) or all characters in contiguous mantras they start with (mine).

I don't understand why that extends to giving them Revival.

It's as Rozalia says, analogous to the situation where Justin would get spells that are prereqs for abilities he learns. Most people don't do this (though some do). However, the DDS situation is considerably weaker than the position Justin is in. While Thunder Cut, etc., is entirely unique to Justin, therefore we can agree he must get it, Roland isn't in the same boat at all. High-level healing isn't unique to him (heck, even initial healing is shared with what, 3 other PCs?), and it arguably isn't legal itself. So basically, he has a substantially worse argument than one that is already only accepted by a minority of voters.

I;m reminded why it is generally better to just ignore DDS2 forms in the DL (not that this is possible for Roland, sadly).

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Yoshiken

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2009, 12:30:14 AM »
I don't really understand the Frog Drop comparison.
In the discussion on Thievery, a couple of people mentioned allowing high-power Frog Drop because Quina need 99 frogs to get the Gastro Fork, which DL!Quina has. Roland should be allowed Recarm because it's necessary for the Healing path, which DL!Roland has. (I also apply the same logic to Serph/Sera/Seraph and the two Physical Mantra between the Hunt skills, as it happens. Not that these help any of the characters much DL-wise.)

I;m reminded why it is generally better to just ignore DDS2 forms in the DL (not that this is possible for Roland, sadly).
This... is probably true. And also yet another reason for me to get hold of DDS1.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Trinity Limit - Opening Act (Part 1)
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2009, 12:35:21 AM »
Well, the thing about Quina situation is that there is nothing illegal about giving frogs to Quina. The only question is how many. In that regard, since few would regard getting the Gastro Fork as at all unreasonable or aftergame, it makes a good baseline for the strength of Frog Drop.

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