Author Topic: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)  (Read 48291 times)

Dunefar

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2009, 05:34:00 PM »
Top ten highest ranked villains:
1. Jecht: 7.30, 15 rankers. (3 DNR)
2. Reno:  7.21, 21 rankers.
3. Rufus: 6.97, 21 rankers.
4. Sin: 6.87, 16 rankers. (3 DNR)
5. Gilgamesh: 6.84, 13 rankers.
6. Doctor Cidolfus Demen Bunansa: 6.72, 11 rankers.
7. Kefka: 6.67, 17 rankers.
8. Kuja: 6.59, 22 rankers.
9. Sephiroth: 6.28, 21 rankers.
10. Ultros: 6.00, 16 rankers (1 DNR)

Top ten lowest ranked villains
1. Zemus/Zeromus: 1.88, 17 rankers.
2. Necron: 2.13, 22 rankers.
3. Adel: 2.33, 18 rankers. (1 DNR)
4t. Milon: 2.6, 15 rankers (3 DNRs)
4t. Lani: 2.60, 20 rankers. (2 DNR)
6. Hein: 2.83/DNR, 6 rankers.
7t. Valvalis: 2.86, 15 rankers (3 DNRs)
7t. Thorn/Zorn: 2.86, 19 rankers. (3 DNR)
9. The Dark King: 2.87, 8 rankers.
10t. Cloud of Darkhess: 2.90, 10 rankers.
10t: Scarlet: 2.90, 21 rankers.

Here be Rinoas:

Baigan: DNR (2.2, 10 voters.)
Jenova: DNR (3.00, 12 rankers.)
Edea: DNR (4.8, 10 rankers.)
Beatrix: DNR (5.83, 10 rankers.)

Here be Squalls:

Kain(1.0, 1 vote)
Tunnel Armor(10, 1 vote)
Yuffie(4.0, 1 vote)
The Occuria(5.33, 3 votes)

---

FFX was fun, The Dark King was filler and FFXII inspires middling votes and apathy, 'cept for Cid. This sounds about right, so let's move along now.

Please not that due to FFT's nature that I'm including some borderline villains. Feel free to DNR as you please.

Final Fantasy Tactics:

Miluda
Wiegraf
Golagros
Algus
Gafgarion
Delita
Bart
Cardinal Draclau
Zalmo
Izlude
Barinten
Celia
Lede
Elmdor
Dycedarg
High Priest Funeral
Vormav
Kletian
Rofel
Balk
Altima

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance:

Queen Remedi
Mewt
Llendar
Cid

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2:

Illua
Ewen
Neukhia
Duke Snakeheart
Maquis
Alys
Night Dancer
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 05:36:01 PM by Dunefar »
* Infinite_Ko_Loop is now known as Ko-CidisnotaPrincess
<Nephrite> That is depressing.
<CmdrKing> I know.  Cid would makea  great princess.

Dunefar

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2009, 05:47:11 PM »
Extra note:

I'll be leaving this one up 2 weeks in deference to DL con.
* Infinite_Ko_Loop is now known as Ko-CidisnotaPrincess
<Nephrite> That is depressing.
<CmdrKing> I know.  Cid would makea  great princess.

Taishyr

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #102 on: July 27, 2009, 06:07:19 PM »
Final Fantasy Tactics: (All my rankings here may change as others remind me of things with their votes.)

Miluda - 8/10. I'll be blunt, I actually liked her a lot. She made a ton of sense for what she was, and worked as a foil to shunt Ramza onto a different path in some ways, I think? Iunno. Maybe just me, but I thought she served as impetus for a lot of what we saw from Ramza later. (I may hate FFT plot something fierce, but I like the characters. Funny that.)
Wiegraf - 6/10. Was good up until accepting space flea Velius, then kinda dropped to "lol will kill". I mean, I get why he accepted it, but past that he didn't interest me as much.
Golagros - 4/10. Hey, an actually decently executed kidnapping plot?! and then he dies.
Algus - 2/10. Smacked violently of hypocrisy to me, never quite appreciated that since it would seem he would know better conceptually ('hey, this made your grandfather reviled, maybe the same sorta tactics to the people who helped you out a fair bit earlier isn't a good idea despite classist presumptions'?) Then again, I'm biased against nobility figures, usually.
Gafgarion - 5/10. Meanwhile, he's the professional merc, which works pretty well but kinda didn't resonate with me, oddly.
Delita - 9/10 (DNR). Worked quite well as an instigator, but he was never really hostile to the group per se and so I can't see him as being villainous. Third party, probably, for me?
Bart - ...I don't remember him.

Cardinal Draclau - 4/10. Not enough scenes.
Zalmo - 5/10. Gets a point for being the RELENTLESS HERETIC HUNTER and a point for dying on top of a bell tower.
Izlude - 8/10. Liked him and what he ended up doing in-plot, also wanted to see more of him but.
Barinten - 10/10. To use a comparison Dune will understand, mortal Esthan. Real goddamn villainous (mostly implied, but...) jackass with no compunctions. Hate his guts, too. >_>
Celia - DNR, don't recall them having much line-age.
Lede - DNR, see Celia.
Elmdor - 7/10, probably at least one point comes from being the kidnapped person early on and thus providing "waitwut" twist.
Dycedarg - 6/10. The mushrooms, the mushrooms!
High Priest Funeral - DNR, don't remember him as even getting a line in-game. This relegates him to "plot evil, never shows up" status.
Vormav - 9/10. Manipulating bastard, probably the brains behind the entire thing in some ways.
Kletian - DNR, see Celia. Does he show up ever outside of that one fight?
Rofel - 7/10. Memory places him as Vormav's flunky who had a grudge against Ramza? I may recall incorrectly here.
Balk - 3/10. Nuisance villain, works for that but not much else.
Altima - 5/10, end Space Flea with some interesting lead-in.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance:

Queen Remedi - 3/10. Wins points for causing other players of the game mass suffering.
Mewt - 4/10. Kinda just... a cowardly kid. All sympathy evaporated when we saw his effects on Ivalice.
Llendar - 4/10, Mewt.
Cid - 3/10, was just kinda there?

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2: (Warning, may be spoilers.)

Illua - 6/10. Gets a point above Mewt simply by being weak to THE POWER OF LITERACY. Seriously, when your biggest issue isn't the main character, but the main character's book? You just got relegated to "serious comedy" villain. The other point is for enticing some of the best snarky comments in the game from Luso and Cid.
Ewen - 3/10. One point for being the first Judge-sealer and getting Luso emo about it. Still really generic.
Neukhia - 4/10. Giant Space Flea From Nowhere who is... a boss that doesn't first show up at the end! He shows up 3/4ths of the way through! And then got a bit of explanation later! Yeah, sure, 5 works.
Duke Snakeheart - 8/10. As a villain? Intelligent but flawed, and a -complete asshole-. Two major plot events are attributable to him at the end, and as a result some things get -badly- fubar'd.
EDIT: Duke Snakeheart is super, too. So.
 
Maquis - 8/10. Actually... had decent motivations! And then got his memory wiped and was -still- pretty awesome! Yeah, impressed.
Alys - 8/10. In love with Maquis, shares his motivation, COMES INTO BATTLE STATUSED BECAUSE SHE THINKS IT GRANTS HER POWER (HINT: NO). Probably a personal favorite.
Night Dancer - 8/10. Tranny. Fucking. Bangaa.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 06:22:09 PM by Taitoro »

Random Consonant

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #103 on: July 27, 2009, 06:30:33 PM »
Final Fantasy Tactics:

Good lord there are far too many bit players here.  Also, my memory of the final bunch is kinda hazy.

Miluda - DNR.  Minor revolutionary who gets two scenes before dying.  Didn't find her that effective when she had screentime, either.
Wiegraf - Could've been more interesting, I think?  Joining the Lucavi didn't help much.  3/10.
Golagros - DNR.  Minor revolutionary who kidnaps Teta and gets maybe three scenes before dying.
Algus - RAR COMMONERS ARE TRASH.  I only respect hateability in villains to a certain extent, and Algus kinda crossed the point where I could take him seriously.  1/10.
Gafgarion - Again, DNR.  Too minor to care about.  Just some mercenary.
Delita - Manipulated and backstabbed his way to the top, only to fall at the very end.  8/10.  The whole thing works for the most part.
Bart - DNR.  I don't even remember what he did.
Cardinal Draclau - RAR CHURCH IS EBIL.  1/10
Zalmo - DNR.  Little more than a bit player, if I recall correctly.
Izlude - DNR.  I don't think he did anything worth noting.
Barinten - RAR I AM CORRUPT EVIL DUKE.  1/10
Celia - DNR.  Random demon
Lede - DNR.  Random demon
Elmdor - Felt fairly threatening.  Though I have some misgivings about ranking him and for giving out scores based on how threatening villains appear to be, I'll give him a 3/10 for that and the twist surprising me.
Dycedarg -  Mmm, yeah, he worked, to an extent.  Needed to be more competent and less generically evil for me to rate him higher, though.  4/10.
High Priest Funeral - Don't remember well enough
Vormav - Don't remember well enough.
Kletian - Don't remember well enough
Rofel - Don't remember well enough.
Balk - Again!
Altima - RAR EBIL MESSIAH.  Then again, my memory here may be faulty.  Abstain out of fairness.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance:

Queen Remedi - Burn in hell, dream fairy.  1/10
Mewt/Llendar -  RAR FFTA HAET MEWT IS EMO CRYBABY HAET.  Except that his life does kinda suck.  That said, unconciously forming a violent second personality that tries to kill anyone who tries to bring him back to reality is... well... 3/10 works, I guess.
Cid - DNR.  It's pretty clear that Cid wasn't opposed to Marche's efforts to return to the real world (and may in fact have wanted to return as well), just as Judgemaster, he had to uphold Ivalice's batshit laws.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 07:38:56 AM by Random Consonant »

Tonfa

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #104 on: July 27, 2009, 07:16:13 PM »
A lot of FFT characters suffer from the game's plot structure and thus, spotty appearances.

Final Fantasy Tactics:

Miluda: 7. Likable, solid motivations.
Wiegraf: 2. Could have been something based on C1, then he drops off the face of the earth and reappears in C3 first as "eh, that guy" and then "space flea".
Golagros: DNR. Too minor.
Algus: 2. While it's named the Algus Principle for hatability...this playthrough really drove home that he's an idiot who can't get his facts straight rather than not wanting to get them straight and thus he just fails.
Gafgarion: 5. Straightforward merc with a nice traitor twist that fits his attitude. Nothing to complain about.
Delita: DNR. Not even an antagonist.
Bart: DNR. No-personality lackey, minor.
Cardinal Draclau: 1. Rar, evulz.
Zalmo: 5. Comedy value.
Izlude: 5. Generic nice villain guy.
Barinten: 2. Evulz. Point for being really evulz about it I guess?
Celia: DNR. No personality.
Lede: DNR. No personality.
Elmdor: 2. Gets one line as non-space flea, then it's all YOU'LL HAVE TO BEAT ME TO FIND OUT. Twist was nice I guess.
Dycedarg: 7. Wants to move higher in society and rule. Is a really giant douche about it. Basically Delita if he was an actual villain. Twirling a wine glass is worth automatic style/douche points too.
High Priest Funeral: DNR. Has one line in the game. Come ON.
Vormav: 3. Is closely associated with the main stupid plot of FFT, acts only for it. Woop. A point for being portrayed as a threat and so utterly devoted to it.
Kletian: You'll have to defeat me to find out!?
Rofel: 3. Uh, is pretty slick in that one convo with Dycedarg I guess.
Balk: DNR. No personality.
Altima: 1. Rar, evulz.
Dycedarg's Elder Brother: 10. So good at spinning the Xanatos roulette nobody even knew he was there.
Professor Daravon: 10. His acts of villainy against the English Language are unrivaled in their viciousness.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance:

Queen Remedi: DNR. Is Mewt.
Mewt: 1/10. Is Mewt.
Llendar: DNR. Is Mewt.
Cid: DNR. Is not Mewt.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2:

Illua: 3. Ah, the leader of the Organization of Vague Evil. Point for being someone that causes Cid to talk more about his vague past in the Organization of Vague Evil.
Ewen: 3. NINJA KLETIAN. Comedy points for that and being like the fastest decaying villain in threat value ever.
Neukhia: DNR. Space flea.
Duke Snakeheart: 3. <RichardHawk> All his motivations were "Hm. Not evil enough. What next?!" while not having the style to carry that type of character.
<RichardHawk> ...yeah, super.
Maquis: 7. Pretty cool guy. Also Ninja Ondore.
Alys: 4. What the heck was that status effects thing about anyway?
Night Dancer: 8. Tranny bangaa.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Taishyr

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #105 on: July 27, 2009, 08:26:30 PM »
Tonfa: The status thing effect was explained in one fight as being Alys thinking that the negative sorceries made her positive ones come out more powerfully. IIRC, that was kinda of a justification for her having Blood Price? But not directly, so.

Bobbin Cranbud

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #106 on: July 27, 2009, 11:34:34 PM »
Final Fantasy Tactics:

Miluda (2/10): Aside from inspiring the line "insipid pop populism" in my actual play report of LFFT, has never struck me one way or another.  I have little to no sympathy for her ideology, as the above quote indicates, and as a character she has all of two scenes.

Wiegraf (7.5/10): He has not one but THREE interesting battles, which are worth at least two bonus points - and even then I feel like I'm undervaluing him.  A lot of presence for an FFT villain, the argument between him and Ramza in Underground Book Storage is actually interesting and not really decisively answered, and he doesn't lose anything for plot fusing with Velius and it came off as legitimately tragic.  Honestly, I can't help but feel Ramza was WRONG in saying Wiegraf betrayed his ideals (prior to using Ares, I mean) - Funeral's plan seemed to go hand in glove with what Wiegraf wanted.

Golagros (DNR) (3/10): Minion.  Well portrayed for what he was, but he's got nothing.  Not worthy of being considered a villain, he's barely even an antagonist.

Algus (8/10): I hate to say anything good about Algus, but... doesn't that say something for him, really?  In the midst of a bunch of truly merciless schemers, abusive power-mongers and enfleshed demons, his petty thuggery, sneering condescension and Teta murder make him probably the most consistently despised character in the game.  That takes some doing.

Gafgarion (9/10): Just doing his job and doing it with AWESOME.  He's a bastard, but considering the world he lives in his bastardy comes from wholly convincing cynicism.  In both the original (when genuinely good lines were hard to come by) and War of the Lions, he has some of the best lines in this or any game.  Particularly when pwning Agrias, who made a great foil.

Delita (DNR) (10/10): Great character, not in any way, shape or form a villain.  Even the most ruthless asshole interpretation of his behavior leaves him a borderline antihero, and he's an antagonist for all one of scene (when he first kidnaps Ovelia), which turns out to serve the party's interests more than his not doing what he did.  In every other instance in which he interacts with Ramza and co., he's either neutral to them or on their side.  Whatever you think of his actions on the grand stage, he apparently DOES save Ivalice and end its cycle of self-destructive wars.

Bart (3/10): Minion, satisfying death scene, but not as satisfying as Judge Ghis's and he has virtually no presence.

Cardinal Draclau(Queklain/Cuchulain) (6/10): Nicely radiates menace and plays things fairly well.  Ultimately, though, he's just a speed bump esper in the rebel scion hierarchy and a middle manager in the Glabados Church hierarchy - all the actual schemes he's involved with are the work of Funeral and Hashmalum.

Zalmo (5/10): Not enough screen time to really shine, but Zalmo seems like a pretty interesting character.  He appears to be something of a true believer and a pawn of all and sundry, who is genuinely trying to bring a dangerous fugitive to justice and ends up getting killed due to a misunderstanding.  But his battles are boring and he doesn't show up much.

Izlude (DNR) (5/10): Even less of a villain than Zalmo, who can be interpreted as such.  Good character but not much of a villain, and ultimately he doesn't have much screen time or presence.

Barinten (7/10): Actually, a really good (by which I mean bad) villain for how little he's in the game.  He's such an immense asshole he qualifies for loving to hate him.  On the other hand, his plans are actually quite good and he seems like he'd be a genuine magnificent bastard but for his having no way to know about the supernatural power of the Zodiac Braves.

Celia (3/10): One point for style, two points for very nasty battles, nothing for any other purpose because she's just a named mook.

Lede (3/10): See Celia.

Elmdor(/Zarella) (4/10): Even more style and he actually has some lines... but that's about it.  Even as nasty as the fight with him can be on the first run, he's just another mook esper on the way to Hashmalum and Altima.  If his dismissal of Vormav is taken at face value and he represents a genuine philosophical break amidst the rebel scions, gets more interesting - but there's no particular reason to believe that.

Dycedarg (8/10): (Note: Unlike Draclau and Vormav, who only appear in the game as the mortal guises of Queklain/Cuchulain and Hashmalum, or Elmdor, who doesn't seem to be a villain before become a vessel of Zarella, Dycedarg is a villain in his own right and is only seen as Adramelek's vessel for the briefest of stretches.) And what a villain Dycedarg is - believable in his plots and motives, but an utterly ruthless son of a bitch.  Loses at least half a point for his plot fusion, because unlike Wiegraf, whose arc is about trying to balance ideals and the power to achieve them, Dycedarg has ALREADY been (morally) destroyed by grasping for power, and anyway he's basically tricked into becoming a Zodiac Brave - which reduces the quality of his characterization overall.

High Priest Funeral (3/10): Understandable plot and it would have worked if other, more magnificent bastards weren't around to screw him over, but has almost no screen time.

Adramelek (2/10): Mook esper, easy battle.  Plot fusion for Dycedarg somewhat fails for the same reason as for Vayne: it doesn't really further his character arc in any way.  Adramelek has no personality other than that.

Vormav(/Hashmalum) (7/10): Gets points for being behind what amounts to actually quite a good little scheme to resurrect Altima/Ultima.  He has decent presence, too.  But, oddly overshadowed because his supernatural villainy never manages to seem as bad as what the people of Ivalice do to each other without his intervention.

Kletian (2/10): Mook.

Rofel (2/10): Mook.

Balk (4/10): Balk-2 is a badass enough battle to raise him a whole two points over Vormav's other lackeys.

Altima (6/10): Loses at least a point for being one of the weakest final bosses around, especially when stacked against some of her followers who are actually tougher to beat (Velius unless you know what you're doing).  Honestly, the six points she does have are probably six more than I would have given her before FF12, so they may not be fair here.  Why?  Because between the time of FF12 and the time of FFT, she apparently executed a MAGNIFICENT Xanatos Gambit to free the rebel espers from servitude to mankind, get herself revered as a god/demigod and establish a method to get the control she apparently wanted in the first place.  But all of that is subtextual and relies on material outside FFT itself, so...  Meh, leaving the rating I've got.
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AAA

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #107 on: July 28, 2009, 03:02:46 AM »
Final Fantasy Tactics:

Miluda 7/10
Wiegraf 6/10 Actually kind of liked him showing up in C3, cynical and bitter, completely lacking any ideals he had previously, so desperate to live he basically sells his soul for no other purpose than to live.
Golagros 5/10
Algus 8/10
Gafgarion 6/10
Delita 9/10
Bart who?/10
Cardinal Draclau 5/10
Zalmo 5/10
Izlude 5/10
Barinten 5/10
Celia 5/10
Lede 5/10
Elmdor 5/10
Dycedarg 7/10 Good manipulator
High Priest Funeral 5/10
Vormav 5/10
Kletian 5/10
Rofel 5/10
Balk 5/10
Altima 5/0

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance:

Queen Remedi 5/10 
Mewt 1/10 I really hate Mewt. Like, a lot.
Llendar 5/10
Cid Not a villain/10

Don't think of it as a novel. Think of it as a chance to retroactively win every argument you have ever walked away from.

SnowFire

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #108 on: July 28, 2009, 03:52:48 AM »
Super-delayed reply from the past:
Anyway... as far as FFXII goes, I can't be the only one who wanted Cid to win. The PCs were just hatchetmen for some stupid ghosts what wanted to pull our strings anyway. Cid was trying to right the course of human history. His flaw was that his goals were too damn big.

Yeah, agree, though I think the game did try and let you achieve that?  Though it's more nebulous than it should be, it's strongly implied that Ashe's actions on Pharos did screw over whatever the Occuria were planning...  hopefully.  At the very least the leaders of both nations are resolute on ignoring the Occuria now, rather than running around and being their lackeys.

Anyway...

Final Fantasy Tactics:

Miluda 7/10 - Fits her role in the plot very well, but it's a small one.  Nothing wrong with her, just not handing out 8s and above for well-done bit parts.
Wiegraf 8/10 - See AAA, it's a nice warning you may not be on the right side when a "White Knight" is fighting you in Chapter 1.  Defeating his rebellion drives him to desperation and dark pacts.  I buy it.
Golagros DNR.  Miluda is well-done minor, Golgaros exists for too little time.
Algus 9/10 - WTF at low Algus scores.  "Animals have no god!"  Man, FFT accidentally did have a few great lines in the mush the translators produced.  Completely despicable piece of trash and great at it.
Gafgarion 7/10 - Experienced mercenary working for both sides, sure.  I like his trickery in his second and especially third battles - the duel with Ramza.  He babbles too much about his amoral non-philosophy but whatever it's FFT.
Delita 9/10 - Sure, willing to call him a villain even if he isn't really an antagonist.  He does murder some people with much less cause than Ramza.  A fine schemer with a basically decent intention behind it.  Kinda wish he didn't, along with the rest of the political plot, hit the back burner to some degree in Chapter 4 after you get Orlandu.
Bart DNR - Draclau food.
Cardinal Draclau 5/10 - Generic badguy.  Presence points for the transform followed by creepy music, at least.
Zalmo 5/10 - Exists.
Izlude 6/10 - Noble deceived badguy, but dies before he can really have character development.  (Which is fine.  This needs to happen to some people.)
Barinten 7/10 - The "kill the village of assassins plot and raise their kids" plot has been done a bunch of times before, and doesn't make tons of sense and is kinda lame, but it kinda worked because Barinten struck me as more pathetic.  Nice that he's one of the badguys everyone hates and gets a properly horrible fate.
Celia & Lede - 6/10?  Entirely presence votes as far as "holy shit they're killing people left and right."
Elmdor 5/10 - Going from saving him to killing him was nice.  Hard to say but doesn't seem like much of a villain before he got possessed.
Dycedarg 8/10: Good villain.  Ruthless political schemer and all, murders his dad, gets Zalbag to go along with most of his plans, prepares to take power.  It would have worked too if it hadn't been for his damn brother, and getting possessed.  The fact that he was tricked into it is too bad, I agree, he's cool enough on his own.
High Priest Funeral DNR - Not possessed part of the church getting killed by possessed part of church.  Fills his role.
Vormav 7/10? - Slightly biased since I agree with Cranbud, the supernatural plot was in many ways lamer than the political plot and Vormav is the chief of the Zodiac Brave Evil Brigade.  On the other hand him murdering everyone in Riovanes gives him presence points, and he feels like a decent threat.
Kletian DNR - Henchman.
Rofel DNR - Henchman.
Balk 4/10 - Weird that Balk of all people got to have a do-over in Hell.  He's fundamentally Delita but whinier.
Altima 3/10 - Lumping this in with St. Ajora.  I far far preferred what it seemed like the plot was from the Germonik scriptures in Chapter 3 - that Germonik was the "real hero" and Ajora was the person who got all the credit.  There'd be a nice parallel between Ramza & Delita, then.  But no...  Ajora wasn't an opportunist who got executed, but the Devil (or at least possessed by the Devil).  And now the Devil's back for revenge and to do EVIL RARGH.  (How'd they manage to execute him anyway?!)  Yawn.  What a letdown for a plot with as many good villains as FFT.

I've issues with FFT's plot - especially in Chapter 3 and 4 - but the characters are overall pretty good.

Not finished FFTA2, so not ranking it.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #109 on: July 28, 2009, 04:17:51 AM »
Final Fantasy Tactics:

Miluda- DNR.
Wiegraf-  7/10. I liked his spiral from idealistic to hateful and bitter. Sort of nails in the brother/sister relationship theme of FFT.
Golagros- 2/10. Whaaatever.
Algus- 7/10. He is really really good at being really hatable. He causes basically everything in FFT to happen with his sheer douchiness.
Gafgarion- 5/10.
Delita- 10/10. Let's just say that 'bad guys' is a literal term for people who are bad, not antagonists. He uses people, he uses them well, but if you say he opposed Ramza directly you aren't paying attention. He just took any means necessary to grab what he wanted, even if it meant stepping on people, but Ramza he pretty much just let do his thing because his thing was helpful. Last two scenes + the only C3 scene are the ones that grabbed me most. The road to hell is paved in good intentions.
Bart- DNR
Cardinal Draclau- 4/10. Tricky assface.
Zalmo- 1/10
Izlude- 7/10. Sure.
Barinten- 3/10. Gets 3 points for being thrown off a roof.
Celia- DNR
Lede- DNR
Elmdor- DNR.
Dycedarg- 8.5/10. Grade A asshole. The Rofel/Dycedarg scene near the end just emphasizes what a real piece of shit he is.
High Priest Funeral- 2/10
Vormav- 1/10
Kletian- DNR
Rofel- 9.5/10.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Balk- 3/10.
Altima- DNR

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance:

Queen Remedi- 5/10
Mewt- I dunno. He's an interesting character, at least, even if his motivations are uh yeah. We'll say 4/10 as a character, 0/10 as a human being.
Llendar- 1/10
Cid- DNR
When humanity stands strong and people reach out for each other...
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Dunefar

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #110 on: July 28, 2009, 04:25:06 AM »
Final Fantasy Tactics:

Miluda: 7/10. Miluda is a hopeless rebel fighting for a better tomorrow. While she only has a few scenes, she's effective in all of them.
Wiegraf: 8/10. His descent from idealism to despair and spiritual death in the pursuit of power is a summary of the game's villain cast.  He can't beat the system despite his best efforts...so he joins the church. This ends up with him striving to do something, anything and failing. In his despair he throws his soul away to Lucavi.  Good stuff.
Golagros: DNR.
Algus: 9/10. Paragon of the love to hate genre of baddies. He's pathetic and throws friends and morality away to chase 'nobility', all while being utterly contemptible. Brilliant.
Gafgarion: 8/10. The end result of the cynical disillusionment rampant in FFT. He's an amoral mercenary trying to make a few gold no matter what the price is.
Delita: 8/10. I like Delita, but...he's very much a villain. He becomes what he hates and commits terrible acts while chasing power. Does it matter if he succeeds? In the end he lost himself. The ending scene where Ovelia stabs him is the perfect finish for FFT.
Bart: DNR.
Cardinal Draclau: 4/10. Does his role but isn't very interesting.
Zalmo: 6/10. I hesitate to say he's a good man, but he's definitely a victim.
Izlude: 6/10. He only has a little time onscreen. His most interesting bit is that his job bio mentions he's fallen into despair. It fits the theme of the game. The fact that he's unaware of Lucavi and tries to stop Vormav is commendable, but is futile.
Barinten: 5/10. Eh.
Celia: 4/10.
Lede: 4/10.
Elmdor: 5/10. Sephiroth.
Dycedarg: 9/10. A real bastard who's traded his soul for power. He killed his father, manipulated his family, and has the blood of thousands on his hands. Is it any surprise he becomes a Lucavi? He's as debased as one, perhaps even moreso.
High Priest Funeral: 4/10. Too little time.
Vormav: 8/10. Presence. Seeing him before he transformed would've been interesting, I think.
Kletian: 5/10. Eh.
Rofel: 6/10. Eh.
Balk: 5/10. Another loser.
Altima: 5/10. Just not enough time. Damn.
* Infinite_Ko_Loop is now known as Ko-CidisnotaPrincess
<Nephrite> That is depressing.
<CmdrKing> I know.  Cid would makea  great princess.

Random Consonant

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #111 on: July 28, 2009, 06:45:23 AM »
Quote from: SnowFire
Algus 9/10 - WTF at low Algus scores.  "Animals have no god!"  Man, FFT accidentally did have a few great lines in the mush the translators produced.  Completely despicable piece of trash and great at it.

I can only speak for myself here, but hatability shouldn't come at the expense of being able to be taken seriously (case in point - Lezard Valeth.  Wanting to fuck Lenneth just makes you look pathetic, man).  Algus is simply too over-the-top in his rhetoric for that to be a possibility with me, which is a shame, because with some minor tweaks to his dialouge, I'd probably give a pretty decent score.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #112 on: July 28, 2009, 07:13:27 AM »
I feel the need to point out that villains are not necessarily antagonists. I dunno if I consider Delita a villain or not ANYWAY but this seems to be a point of confusion for some, so. Regardless, I take a very broad view of "bad guy" for this topic so expect me to rank everyone who has enough worth to consider.

Miluda: 6/10. Solid enough for what she was.
Wiegraf: 4/10. I agree with the love for the fact that he totally sells out his ideals, the random C3 appearance was cool. Never really cared for him otherwise, though; his big scene in C1 came off as him babbling, and Velius drew out his character needlessly.
Golagros: DNR. I randomly like him for some reason, but no.
Algus: 8/10. Effective, memorable scumbag type. You can actually see where he's coming from, unreasonable though he is, and he represents something very real. You just hate him for it, though.
Gafgarion: 6/10. Yeah, gets some good scenes.
Delita: 9.5/10. Don't have too much to add about him, he's very good.
Bart: DNR. I think he has the least screentime of the people who have non-zero screentime in the Character database.
Cardinal Draclau: 4/10. His transformation scene is genuinely creepy, but his character worth isn't there.
Zalmo: 5/10. Real enough character, which is nice. I just don't care.
Izlude: 7/10. I like him for reasons which probably aren't objectively defensible. He's sorta what Zalmo was aiming for... guy who honestly believes in the church. Except he's much more personable than some religious zealot. I like his conversation with Ramza a lot. And him dying makes you hate Vormav.
Barinten: 3/10. BURN A VILLAGE TO GET RAFA AND MALAK!! He's... hateable but eh. Generally feel the whole end-C3 arc was poorly done and he kinda gets lumped into that.
Celia: DNR
Lede: DNR. Both are awesome, mind.
Elmdor: D...NR? Zalera is so boring. Nah, not enough people are DNRing him, so 2/10. Most memorable scene is him spamming 'quote marks' about the 'Bloody Angel' and the 'Ultimate Power'.
Dycedarg: 8/10. Dycedarg is love. What a bastard. See Algus comments really. He totally has the best zodiac transformation, too. Everyone else gets turned evil. Dyce? He's already more evil than the demons.
High Priest Funeral: He orchestrates a whole lot from behind the scenes, but that doesn't change that he himself has no personality. This is hard to rate, so I'll just go along with the DNRs.
Vormav: 5/10. Vormav has two things going for him. One, the Riovanes massacre definitely sticks out in the memory, and gives a clear definition to the power of what you're facing. Two, when he kills himself. Up until that point I was wondering how much of his motivations were sincere about him getting his goal, and how much was him being self-absorbed with his own power. His self-execution certainly settled THAT question. On the other hand, the fact that I had that question up to his final scene shows how flat his development was until then, so the best he merits is an average score.
Kletian: 2/10. Rofel's been defeated? Then unless I beat you here, I can't face Rofel... c'mon!
Rofel: 6/10. Memorable. Not too many people could do to Dycedarg what he did, and the needless, cruel murder of the High Priest also sticks out. We know very little more about why he is this creepy, soft-talking psycho, sadly.
Balk: 3/10. Finally on top of the human race!
Altima: 4/10. Tim the Toolman Taylor. More power, things explode.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

ThePiggyman

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #113 on: July 28, 2009, 05:46:44 PM »
Final Fantasy Tactics:

Miluda - 7/10
Wiegraf - 9/10
Golagros - 6/10
Algus - 9/10
Gafgarion - 8.5/10
Delita - 10/10
Bart - 4/10
Cardinal Draclau 4/10
Zalmo - 6/10
Izlude - 8/10
Barinten 5/10
Celia - DNR
Lede - DNR
Elmdor - DNR
Dycedarg - 10/10
High Priest Funeral - DNR
Vormav - 9/10
Kletian - 6/10
Rofel - 8.5/10
Balk - 6.5/10
Altima - 4/10

Yeah, FFT, in my opinion, has the best cast of characters evar.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 06:10:45 PM by ThePiggyman »
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if you believe in being a GOOD PERSON

If we believed in that, we wouldn't be forcing world-saving hero to fight eachother to the death for our amusement.

superaielman

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #114 on: July 29, 2009, 04:03:40 PM »
Final Fantasy Tactics:

Miluda 5/10
Wiegraf 6/10
Golagros- DNR
Algus- 8.5/10
Gafgarion- 7/10-What the elf said.
Delita- 9/10.
Bart- DNR
Cardinal Draclau- 5.5/10
Zalmo- DNR
Izlude- 7/10
Barinten- 7/10- A third party coming out of nowhere to try and blackmail the church? Wow. That was pretty neat.
Celia- DNR
Lede- DNR
Elmdor- DNR
Dycedarg- 8.5/10- Lategame Algus!
High Priest Funeral- DNR
Vormav- I donno. 5/10?
Kletian- DNR
Rofel- 6/10
Balk-  DNR
Altima- Donno. 4/10
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Niu

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #115 on: July 29, 2009, 11:31:57 PM »
...God NO. NONONONONO.
FF12 and FFT are NOT connected.
The name of the 12 Lucavis are a already different for beginners.
Look up FFT characters and spell out the names of the Lucavi and see.

SnowFire

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #116 on: July 30, 2009, 12:08:45 AM »
Random Consonant: I read history for fun, and all I can say is that sadly, Algus was believable to me.  Understandable that he might be a bit too much, just that "fallen nobility with ambition" are among the battiest people in the world.  Some really great people have come from that kind of background, and some crazy ones too.  People insecure of their own position tend to be the most rabid about it, so it made sense to me.

Niu: Ivalice continuity is a trainwreck, yes, but they're connected in a fanficcy, non-offensive type way?  The Espers have some blather about how they were demons who were punished for their crimes by being made to serve man IIRC.  And a decent number of the names are close / clearly nods (Velius / Belias if nothing else, there's no FF final boss close to it).  It's entirely possible to hypothesize that FF12 is zillions of years later than FFT, and FFT was when the demons ran loose.

This is better continuity than the continuity between FF12 and FFTA2, in which Vaan & Penelo visit a land that while still called "Ivalice" and inhabited by the same races is extremely fundamentally different.  The role of Viera, Judges, clans, etc. is upside down.

Random Consonant

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #117 on: July 30, 2009, 12:35:18 AM »
Quote
Random Consonant: I read history for fun, and all I can say is that sadly, Algus was believable to me.  Understandable that he might be a bit too much, just that "fallen nobility with ambition" are among the battiest people in the world.  Some really great people have come from that kind of background, and some crazy ones too.  People insecure of their own position tend to be the most rabid about it, so it made sense to me.

Fair enough, but Algus never struck me that way, and even if he, I take a fairly dim view of such characters, even if they're realistic (though probably not so dim that I'd rate him as low as I did).  But then again, I dislike screeching loons as villains in general.  I just saw Algus as an angry, petty thug who did the nobility's dirty work, who, to be honest, I was too busy mocking to hate, since there was nothing really there to him other than hate-provoking rants.

ThePiggyman

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #118 on: July 30, 2009, 02:13:41 AM »
Niu: Ivalice continuity is a trainwreck, yes, but they're connected in a fanficcy, non-offensive type way?  The Espers have some blather about how they were demons who were punished for their crimes by being made to serve man IIRC.  And a decent number of the names are close / clearly nods (Velius / Belias if nothing else, there's no FF final boss close to it).  It's entirely possible to hypothesize that FF12 is zillions of years later than FFT, and FFT was when the demons ran loose.

Just to add on to this bit, all Espers/Lucavi are the same. Quecklain = Cúchulainn, both have Zalera, both have Adrammelech, both have Hashmalum. The original FFT has translation errors with the names is all. The two games are no doubt connected. And passed that, both FFT and FF12 have a region called Ordalia.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ivalice

There's the full story if you're interested in the disaster. ;p
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 02:17:24 AM by ThePiggyman »
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if you believe in being a GOOD PERSON

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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #119 on: July 30, 2009, 02:41:39 AM »
Final Fantasy Tactics:

[If they're not on here, it's a DNR. I didn't want to put DNR on half the goddamn lines.]

Wiegraf- 8/10. Wiegraf is an excellent take on the leader of a peasant revolt. He does some fairly bad stuff early on, but it's because he has no other options and he thinks that taking a hostage (that you don't intend to kill) is acceptable to keep your skin intact in a bad situation.

Algus- 8/10. I think Algus is kind of Wiegraf's foil. He's a noble whose house has fallen on hard times and he is as desperate to rise in the heirarchy as Wiegraf is to overthrow it. Just like Wiegraf is okay with taking a hostage to escape a sticky situation, Algus is okay with killing an "unimportant" civilian to solve the problem.

Gafgarion- 9/10. If this were a western RPG, I'd say he cribbed too heavily from the CO of Richard's Panzer Brigade, but it's not, so I'll write it off as coincidence. Gafgarion is something that you don't see a lot of in fiction: he's a mercenary who functions like MOST mercenaries would. Yes, some of them have high standards and don't break contracts because they have a reputation to uphold (see: Kell Hounds, Eridani Light Horse) but those are the elite who command all kinds of respect and can tip the scales of a battle by appearing. Gaff Gafgarion (yes that is his full name) is not one of those people. He's an average mercenary, who will do anything for money and whose loyalty is for sale as many times as you care to buy it.

Delita- 9/10. Delita, as much as he hates Algus, apparently learned a lot from him and Dycedarg. He reminds me of Griffith from Berserk, without all the dude-fucking. You know that scene where Griffith trips balls and he builds a stairway to the castle out of the bodies of people who've died in his army? Yeah, that defines Delita quite nicely. He's decided he's going to climb over the fallen to get to the top so he can run shit.

Cardinal Draclau- 5/10. I don't remember anything particular about him except that he was a generic church asshole.

Elmdor- 2/10. So generic. "Hi I'm an effeminate Dracula or some shit."

Dycedarg- 10/10. Here we go. Dycedarg plays the roles of both the major villains in FM1, Driscoll and Sakata. This is an awesome thing. It turns out most of the bad shit that happens goes back to him in one way or another, and even when you kill him, the wheel's in spin and it doesn't make what he did go away.  I like when they do that.

High Priest Funeral- 5/10. Generic church asshole. I thought he'd be more than that.

Vormav- 6/10. Generic church asshole, gets an extra point for being willing to sacrifice his kids.

Altima- 3/10. YES I GET IT JAPAN. You can't understand that it's the people who came AFTER Jesus who were assholes, so you think Jesus was a jerkass. That makes you a huge goddamn liar, but I get what you're trying to say.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance:

Queen Remedi- 2/10. She was kind of spooky until it turned out that she wasn't a ghost or a zombie but instead, was a jello monster.

Mewt- 1/10. You are terrible.

Llendar- 1/10. You are the mary sue of a terrible character.

ThePiggyman

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #120 on: July 30, 2009, 03:42:40 AM »
Quote
You know that scene where Griffith trips balls and he builds a stairway to the castle out of the bodies of people who've died in his army?

o.o

*goes to start watching Berserk*
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if you believe in being a GOOD PERSON

If we believed in that, we wouldn't be forcing world-saving hero to fight eachother to the death for our amusement.

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #121 on: July 30, 2009, 06:29:18 AM »
It's the best I've ever seen at making you think things will turn out good and then crushing those hopes.

Fudozukushi

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #122 on: July 30, 2009, 06:51:12 AM »
Final Fantasy Tactics Advance:

Queen Remedi: 2/10 is there
Mewt: 3/10 I don't have the active hate most people have for him
Llendar: 5/10 Zeromus but funnier
Cid: DNR lol

Marche: 10/10 wins etc.

Niu

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #123 on: July 30, 2009, 09:55:33 AM »
Niu: Ivalice continuity is a trainwreck, yes, but they're connected in a fanficcy, non-offensive type way?  The Espers have some blather about how they were demons who were punished for their crimes by being made to serve man IIRC.  And a decent number of the names are close / clearly nods (Velius / Belias if nothing else, there's no FF final boss close to it).  It's entirely possible to hypothesize that FF12 is zillions of years later than FFT, and FFT was when the demons ran loose.

This is better continuity than the continuity between FF12 and FFTA2, in which Vaan & Penelo visit a land that while still called "Ivalice" and inhabited by the same races is extremely fundamentally different.  The role of Viera, Judges, clans, etc. is upside down.

No FFTA2 is a much better consistency, as FFTA2 actually tells you WHY things are different.
But FFT to FF12?
Again for the beginners... Leviathan is one of the 12 Lucavis in FFT, but I certainly don't see that in the 12 Abnormalities in FF12. And I don't think how they are going to answer other discrepancies if they can't even explain this one.

ThePiggyman

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Re: Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)
« Reply #124 on: July 30, 2009, 01:41:49 PM »
Again for the beginners... Leviathan is one of the 12 Lucavis in FFT, but I certainly don't see that in the 12 Abnormalities in FF12. And I don't think how they are going to answer other discrepancies if they can't even explain this one.

But Leviathan ISN'T a Lucavi in FFT. ;o
He's a summon.
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if you believe in being a GOOD PERSON

If we believed in that, we wouldn't be forcing world-saving hero to fight eachother to the death for our amusement.