Rate the bad guys! (Spoilers, duh.)

[DjinnAndTonic]

The CC plot....

It really starts with Gash trying to kill Time Devour.
So he purposely created the Time Crash and drag the Dragons in from a parallel world.
This is the most fundamental step he needs to take in order to collect all the materials he need to destroy Time Devourer...... just this makes no sense. As he has the resource to do the same WITHOUT causing the Time Crush and achieve the same effect. This is why I refuse to think of CC, the thing is incoherent since the point one. Then rest of his xanatos rollercoster that is the CC main game makes even less sense as.... most of it really has no effect on getting what he wants.

While FATE is just a stupid bitch who is jealous of human so she wants to free herself from her limiters and take over.

Dragon Gods after getting defeated by FATE, got divided, and Dinopolis sealed away, their central consciousness contacted with Time Devourer. Time Devourer has the ability to assimilate anything that contains great amount of negative emotion and thus absorbed the Dragon God. Then from that point on, the Dragons are acting simply for their revenge.

As why FATE consider Serge dangerous.... Serge being an arbiter, thus a Chrono Trigger, has the ability to resolve conflicting lives . But the resolution itself is not certain. If the arbiter, which is meant to become one with the Time Devourer cannot neutralize Time Devourer's conflict with other lives when they unites, the resolution well be in Time Devoruer's favor, then the alien darkness shall devour the the dreams of all times. In the other words, as long as arbiter does not exist, the full awakening of the Time Devourer can be delayed indefinitely.

And finally... I have completly NO FUCKING IDEA on what the fuck Dead Sea is about and what purpose does it serve.

The game makes more sense without the original writers telling us what they meant. I think I preferred not knowing this. The US release of the game was at least mostly self-contained. Now it is all messed up.

Dammit Japan.

[Cmdr_King]

... wait.  duh.  This makes even more sense now.  Uncertainty principle.  Serge is the observer who, by observing, determines reality.  From among uncertain results, his decisions are the concrete reality.  When the timeline is restored, it is the reality he remembers that remains because what is hinges on what he observes.  The assassin of those times he does not see.  The trigger which ends the planet's dreaming and allows it to be born.

So the goal was never to save Schala, to prevent the dream devourer from coming to be.  It was to allow Serge, the one who exited time and space, to see many different paths, and in so doing choose the correct one that would lead to the planet being born.

*shakes head* Man, Kato.  your writing does not back up your vision at all.

[Dhyerwolf]

If that is what being a Chrono Trigger means, then the CC plot was actually better off with the horrid in-game mishmash as opposed to whatever CK just said.

[DjinnAndTonic]

It's okay, Dhyer, according to CC plot, if you change a timeline, people from the erased future will simply travel back in time to assassinate you and undo it all anyway (So technically CT never happened?). So Serge will be getting an assassin in the mail very soon. >.>;;

[Anthony Edward Stark]

You know what I just realized? Chrono Cross is the Super Mario Brothers movie. SMB is a light-hearted game about two charming plumbers with mad hops saving a princess through a lot of colorful scenery. SMB: The Movie was some idiots trying to turn it in to a dark and edgy Blade Runner clone.

Chrono Trigger was a mostly light-hearted game about having adventures through interesting locales with an underlying message that people can change anything if they really try. Chrono Cross is a terrible mishmash of ideas that try to be edgy and thought-provoking, but really come off as self-hating and incomprehensible.

[Niu]

... wait.  duh.  This makes even more sense now.  Uncertainty principle.  Serge is the observer who, by observing, determines reality.  From among uncertain results, his decisions are the concrete reality.  When the timeline is restored, it is the reality he remembers that remains because what is hinges on what he observes.  The assassin of those times he does not see.  The trigger which ends the planet's dreaming and allows it to be born.

So the goal was never to save Schala, to prevent the dream devourer from coming to be.  It was to allow Serge, the one who exited time and space, to see many different paths, and in so doing choose the correct one that would lead to the planet being born.

*shakes head* Man, Kato.  your writing does not back up your vision at all.

You have the order wrong.
Gash is trying to save Schala, but to do so requires getting rid of Time Devoruer. To get rid off Time Devourer needs an Arbiter. And creating an Arbiter requires Frozen Flame. Then the Aribter must have the ability to resolve Time Dveourer's conflict with the world, and that requires Chrono Cross.

And you give the arbiter a bit too much credit. He does not have the power to resolve reality but only life. But if he fail to neutralize the life that is Time Devourer, the reality is doomed when the the darkness devourers the dreams of all times.

Schala was a pesudo arbiter in the first place due to her high compatbility with the Dream Stone. When she got trapped into the dark side of time when Lavos went ramapge in the Under Sea Palace, and failed to neutralize all the life that was blown in there by Lavos (and eventually Lavos itself), the Time Devoruer we see was born.

To put it simply, Time Devourer is the product of Lavos and an arbiter that can't resolve the conflict towards a harmonious state. (Which is why Chrono Cross is necesary. It gurantees a harmonious resolution)

[Luther Lansfeld]

Chrono Trigger:

Slash- 2/10
Flea- 2/10
Ozzie- 6/10
Magus- 10/10
Azala- 5/10
Dalton- 8/10
Queen Zeal- 4/10
Lavos- 8/10

Chrono Cross:

You know I am just not going to vote on this.

[DjinnAndTonic]

... wait.  duh.  This makes even more sense now.  Uncertainty principle.  Serge is the observer who, by observing, determines reality.  From among uncertain results, his decisions are the concrete reality.  When the timeline is restored, it is the reality he remembers that remains because what is hinges on what he observes.  The assassin of those times he does not see.  The trigger which ends the planet's dreaming and allows it to be born.

So the goal was never to save Schala, to prevent the dream devourer from coming to be.  It was to allow Serge, the one who exited time and space, to see many different paths, and in so doing choose the correct one that would lead to the planet being born.

*shakes head* Man, Kato.  your writing does not back up your vision at all.

You have the order wrong.
Gash is trying to save Schala, but to do so requires getting rid of Time Devoruer. To get rid off Time Devourer needs an Arbiter. And creating an Arbiter requires Frozen Flame. Then the Aribter must have the ability to resolve Time Dveourer's conflict with the world, and that requires Chrono Cross.

And you give the arbiter a bit too much credit. He does not have the power to resolve reality but only life. But if he fail to neutralize the life that is Time Devourer, the reality is doomed when the the darkness devourers the dreams of all times.

Schala was a pesudo arbiter in the first place due to her high compatbility with the Dream Stone. When she got trapped into the dark side of time when Lavos went ramapge in the Under Sea Palace, and failed to neutralize all the life that was blown in there by Lavos (and eventually Lavos itself), the Time Devoruer we see was born.

To put it simply, Time Devourer is the product of Lavos and an arbiter that can't resolve the conflict towards a harmonious state. (Which is why Chrono Cross is necesary. It gurantees a harmonious resolution)

Now I'm just curious where any of this information actually comes from. If this is all Ultimania stuff, then I can accept it as the normal 'stuff we forgot to mention in-game' crap that games like SaGaF are so fond of. But if this is somehow actually supposed to be synthesized from the information given to us in-game, then I'm going to have a hard time sleeping at night for a day or two.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

I've been taking Niu's information with a grain of salt since I found out all that stuff about Edgar and Sabin he posted was from a doujinshi by Soraya Saga titled "Marriage of Figaro: Tales of the Desert" that says in the front of the book that it's not canon. So it could be more of that.

Either way, that's the most shit plot I've ever seen.

[Dark Holy Elf]

You know what I just realized? Chrono Cross is the Super Mario Brothers movie. SMB is a light-hearted game about two charming plumbers with mad hops saving a princess through a lot of colorful scenery. SMB: The Movie was some idiots trying to turn it in to a dark and edgy Blade Runner clone.

Chrono Trigger was a mostly light-hearted game about having adventures through interesting locales with an underlying message that people can change anything if they really try. Chrono Cross is a terrible mishmash of ideas that try to be edgy and thought-provoking, but really come off as self-hating and incomprehensible.

If that were true, CC would be campier. At least the SMB Movie has Dennis Hopper hamming it up with PLUMBBERRRSSSS! and the Bob-Omb scene. CC has... an accent generator.

On second thought that is arguably rather campy. Just depends on your taste in camp, I guess.


That said the comparison is an amusing one.

[Niu]

I've been taking Niu's information with a grain of salt since I found out all that stuff about Edgar and Sabin he posted was from a doujinshi by Soraya Saga titled "Marriage of Figaro: Tales of the Desert" that says in the front of the book that it's not canon. So it could be more of that.

Either way, that's the most shit plot I've ever seen.

For someone who can dsicover the existence of that doujin, you knows quite little.
Did you know I leave out the parts hat exist ONLY in that doujin in that article?
Now, see if you can find my sources now.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

I've been taking Niu's information with a grain of salt since I found out all that stuff about Edgar and Sabin he posted was from a doujinshi by Soraya Saga titled "Marriage of Figaro: Tales of the Desert" that says in the front of the book that it's not canon. So it could be more of that.

Either way, that's the most shit plot I've ever seen.

For someone who can dsicover the existence of that doujin, you knows quite little.
Did you know I leave out the parts hat exist ONLY in that doujin in that article?
Now, see if you can find my sources now.

It's not the first time that non-canon material was repeated in a tertiary source because of the author's connection to the original company. No need to be butthurt.

[Cmdr_King]

You have the order wrong.
Gash is trying to save Schala, but to do so requires getting rid of Time Devoruer. To get rid off Time Devourer needs an Arbiter. And creating an Arbiter requires Frozen Flame. Then the Aribter must have the ability to resolve Time Dveourer's conflict with the world, and that requires Chrono Cross.

And you give the arbiter a bit too much credit. He does not have the power to resolve reality but only life. But if he fail to neutralize the life that is Time Devourer, the reality is doomed when the the darkness devourers the dreams of all times.

For the first, well... as in all things Chrono Cross, it would be simpler and flow more elegantly if you did it in reverse, so I suppose I'm not surprised.

For the latter... hmmm.  That makes sense, but I think that, in the context of this universe, even that more limited ability still has immense implications, because on the whole the Chrono universe is one in which the value of each individual life means a great deal; Schala's philosphical rant at the end is evidence enough of this.

[Niu]

I've been taking Niu's information with a grain of salt since I found out all that stuff about Edgar and Sabin he posted was from a doujinshi by Soraya Saga titled "Marriage of Figaro: Tales of the Desert" that says in the front of the book that it's not canon. So it could be more of that.

Either way, that's the most shit plot I've ever seen.

For someone who can dsicover the existence of that doujin, you knows quite little.
Did you know I leave out the parts hat exist ONLY in that doujin in that article?
Now, see if you can find my sources now.

It's not the first time that non-canon material was repeated in a tertiary source because of the author's connection to the original company. No need to be butthurt.

You still didn't kno wmy point do you?

[Anthony Edward Stark]

I could say the same to you, I suppose.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Does CC even have an Ultimania-type publication?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yes. It's the source of Niu's powers melancholy.

[Niu]

Very much so, and it has turned CC into an even more incoherent mass then it already is.... what it basically tells you is that CC's main game is pointless and serve no purpose. In the end, CC plot only worth 4 pages of technical babble....

I could say the same to you, I suppose.

Then I'll be blunt. You have falsely accused me of using non official materials as my sources for my topic. When one of the reasons that I have start writing the fact center so people can distinguish what has the official seal of approval and what does not.

And you dare to accuse me of using doujinshi as my source only because it based off the FF Colosseum. This is nothing but an insult to my writing ethics.

I highly recommend you do your home work and look up FF Colosseum Vol.5 and Vol.15 before you speak out anything baseless and ignorant .

[SnowFire]

So in conclusion I'm sticking to Serge's plot being *totally unconnected* with this Arbiter / Time Devourer nonsense.  Serge beat up the Dragon God to save humanity from naturey-destruction, then got told by ghosts of characters from Chrono Trigger killed off-screen for no damn good reason to go clean up an unrelated mess wherein their friend got merged with a shard of Lavos, and Serge said "sure you're dead so I guess I'll do."

This may not be what the creators intended but it hurts my head less.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Now I'm just curious where any of this information actually comes from. If this is all Ultimania stuff, then I can accept it as the normal 'stuff we forgot to mention in-game' crap that games like SaGaF are so fond of. But if this is somehow actually supposed to be synthesized from the information given to us in-game, then I'm going to have a hard time sleeping at night for a day or two.

Does CC even have an Ultimania-type publication?

Yes. It's the source of Niu's powers melancholy.

Very much so, and it has turned CC into an even more incoherent mass then it already is.... what it basically tells you is that CC's main game is pointless and serve no purpose. In the end, CC plot only worth 4 pages of technical babble....

Well then, at least that means I can sleep easily. I kind of want a Niu's Fact Center on CC now since this information isn't available anywhere in the English-speaking community.

CC Plot might be ARGH, but it would be nice to have the answers more accessible.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Results!

Chrono Trigger:      
      
Slash   2.846153846   (13 rankers)
Flea   3.423076923   (13 rankers)
Ozzie   4.307692308   (13 rankers)
Magus   7.75   (12 rankers, 1 DNR)
Azala   4.875   (13 rankers)
Dalton   3.846153846   (13 rankers)
Queen Zeal   4.461538462   (13 rankers)
Lavos   6.865384615   (13 rankers)
      
Chrono Cross:      
      
Lynx   6.055555556   (9 rankers)
Harle   5.6   (5 rankers, 2 DNR)
Viper   3.857142857   (7 rankers, 1 DNR)
Karsh   5   (3 rankers, 5 DNR)
Zoah   4.333333333   (3 rankers, 5 DNR)
Marcy   4   (3 rankers, 5 DNR)
Garai   3   (2 rankers, 4 DNR)
Dario   6   (3 rankers, 5 DNR)
Miguel   5.2   (5 rankers, 3 DNR)
Dragons   3   (8 rankers)
FATE   6   (6 rankers, 1 DNR)
Time Devourer   1.875   (8 rankers)
Solt&Peppor   5   (7 rankers, 1 DNR)


Chrono Trigger got a lot of Feedback, I was surprised how low Magus' underlings scored, they always seemed pretty popular. I guess popularity doesn't make them objectively high ranking villains, though.

CC was a trainwreck, but it got more response than anything since Wild Arms. I guess that's a point in its favor, though it ended up with a lot of DNR-ing for most of the options. Only the Dragoons + Garai/Dario got enough to get dropped though.

I guess I should try to finish up the SNES era stuff first, despite my jump into Lunar. Let's see... Earthbound, MarioRPG, Secret of Mana, Tales of Phantasia, Fire Emblem (technically NES, so I guess we have our winner!), SaGa (do I even want to try to rank FFL villains? Should I bother with JPN-only Romancing SaGa?), and the Genesis RPGs.

Remind me if I've forgotten any key oldschool stuff.

[OblivionKnight]

Rudra!

[DjinnAndTonic]

Top ten highest ranked villains:
1. Delita(FFT): 9.04, 12 rankers. (3 DNR)
2. Irving Vold Valeria(WA2): 9.00, 16 rankers.
3. Dycedarg(FFT): 7.86, 15 rankers.
4. Charlton(WAXF): 7.82, 11 rankers.
5. Magus(CT): 7.75, 12 rankers. (1 DNR)
6. Bangaa(FFTA2): 7.66, 3 rankers.
7. Jecht(FFX): 7.30, 15 rankers. (3 DNR)
8. Katrina: 7.22, 9 rankers. (1 DNR)
9. Reno(FF7):  7.21, 21 rankers.
10. Ghaleon(Lunar1): 7.11, 9 rankers.
11. Liz: 7.04, 12 rankers.

Top ten lowest ranked villains
1. Kresnik(WA4): 1.47, 13 rankers. (6 DNR)
2. Volsung(WA5): 1.64, 14 rankers. (1 DNR)
3. Time Devourer(CC): 1.875, 8 rankers.
4. Zemus/Zeromus(FF4): 1.88, 17 rankers.
5. Amon(Lufia 1): 2.00, 8 rankers.
6. Lunn(Lunar2): 2.11, 9 rankers.
7. Necron(FF9): 2.13, 22 rankers.
8. Zoma (DW3/DQ3): 2.25, 4 rankers.
9. Amon(Lufia 2): 2.26, 15 rankers.
10. Daos(Lufia 1): 2.31, 8 rankers.
11. Adel(FF8): 2.33, 18 rankers. (1 DNR)


Victims of Fate:

Baigan: DNR (2.2, 10 voters.)
Jenova: DNR (3.00, 12 rankers.)
Edea: DNR (4.8, 10 rankers.)
Beatrix: DNR (5.83, 10 rankers.)
Golagros: DNR (4.5, 6 rankers.)
Bart: DNR (3.2, 5 rankers.)
Celia: DNR (4.00, 7 rankers.)
Lede: DNR. (4.28, 7 rankers.)
High Priest Funeral: DNR (3.66, 6 rankers.)
Kletian: DNR (3.42, 7 rankers.)
Cid: DNR. (4.00, 3 rankers.)
Neukhia: DNR. (4.00, 2 rankers.)
Luceid: DNR. (2.25, 12 rankers.)
Nazeby: DNR. (1.40, 5 rankers.)
Hargon: DNR (2.5, 2 rankers.)
Malroth: DNR (1.5, 2 rankers.)
Kandar: DNR (1.5, 2 rankers.)
Saro's Shadow: DNR (2.00, 2 rankers.)
White Knight Leo: DNR (6.25, 4 rankers.)


Games ranked:

FF1, FF2, FF3, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8, FF9, FF10, FF12, FFT, FFTA, FFTA2, WA1, WA2, WA3, WA4, WA5, WA:XF, Lufia 1, Lufia 2, Lufia 3, DW1, DW2, DW3, DW4/DQ4, Lunar1, Lunar2, CT, CC.

And now Fire Emblem. Since FE is speshul with its English releases, I'm not sure which games are prevalent enough in fan-translated form to warrant being on this list. If someone wants to chime in on that, please do so. I'm assuming that FE6 is fine, but I don't know about the FEs from 2-5.

Fire Emblem 1/3/11: Dragon of Darkness and Sword of Light / Mystery of the Emblem / Shadow Dragon

Minerva
Camus
Michalis
Gharnef
Medeus

Fire Emblem 6: Sword of Seals

Zephiel
Yahn
Idoun

Fire Emblem 7: The Blazing Sword

Batta
Lundgren
Linus
Lloyd
Ursula
Jaffar
Brendon
Jerme
Sonia
Limstella
Ephidel
Nergal
Dragon


Only three at a time for this update. If I've missed anyone of drastic importance, let me know and I'll add them in. You have a week, enjoy~

[SnowFire]

Djinn: Minor note, but you don't need to have so many decimal points in your scores.  Frankly anything after the first (tenths) decimal place is likely noise anyway, with the low number of votes, so 2 places should be more than sufficient.

Also, I'd be minorly opposed to doing too much chronological order - a mix is probably good so that people who "started late" aren't entirely left out.

Fire Emblem 1/3/11: Dragon of Darkness and Sword of Light / Mystery of the Emblem / Shadow Dragon

Minerva - DNR / 5/10.  This is character worth, not villain worth; as a villain she's non-existent (random boss in one mission who attacks you but thankfully is weak to Merric?  After that she's on your side) but she has one pretty decent line, which is better than most FESD characters (the bit about wanting to have a Macedonian there in the invading army to "set things right" so the country can feel good about itself no matter who wins.  Not that Michalis has really done anything bad.).
Camus - 2/10 - Nonexistent.  Memorable gameplay badass, at least!  You can spare his life but it doesn't seem to change anything so I guess the game wants Marth to spite Nyna's request to spare him so that Marth can steal Camus's spear.  As I was never given much reason to like Nyna, I'm okay with that.
Michalis - 3/10.  Ambitious, killed dad, classic setup.  But needed some actual lines to be a Dycedarg.
Gharnef - 2/10 - EEEEEEBIL SORCEROR WITH MIND CONTROL.  Fail.  Evades being a 1/10 for decent music and that's it.
Medeus - Okay I need to still play the last two missions techncially but I can't see the score being good since he's basically done nothing up to that point.

Fire Emblem 7: The Blazing Sword

Batta - Don't remember.
Lundgren - 6/10 - Classic villain archetype.  The line about forcing poison down Lyn's granddad throat was cute.  Didn't do anything special with it but didn't screw it up either.
Black Fang (Linus, Lloyd, Ursula, Brendon, Jerme) - 5/10.  Effective enough at the "assassin organization taken over for evil purposes" thing and having SOME sympathy while also being menacing.
Jaffar - 6/10 - Good presence as a villain.
Sonia - 7/10 - The seductress, another classic archetype (FE likes these, a way to make a character resonate fast with minimal setup), also with the "angling for more power" element.  She was pretty good, actually, her bonus mission and interactions with Nino were creepy.
Limstella - 5/10 - Served her place, which was "emotionless puppet boss."  Not a whole lot you can do with that.
Ephidel - Eh... DNR.
Nergal - 3/10 - CHECK OUT MY EYE.  Kinda lameass evil plot, his henchmen were better than he himself was.  
Dragon - DNR, berserk boss, like judging Griever.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Djinn: Minor note, but you don't need to have so many decimal points in your scores.  Frankly anything after the first (tenths) decimal place is likely noise anyway, with the low number of votes, so 2 places should be more than sufficient.

True, but I'm just copy/pasting it from my big ol' spreadsheet of fun and truancating it is extra work.

Also, I'd be minorly opposed to doing too much chronological order - a mix is probably good so that people who "started late" aren't entirely left out.

It's already not in full Chronological order since I'm basically taking it a whole -series- at a time, but with the earliest chronological release determining when I post what. Following Dune's example, and there's no real reason to change it, unless you just -really- want Shadow Hearts and Disgaea to be voted on sooner or something?