Author Topic: Season 53, Week 1 - Welcome to the Hong Kong Monty Python Comedy Club.  (Read 4708 times)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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That ranges on FFT equip evade respect, in fairness. I don't give it a lot of credit myself (don't see Chie missing even without Auto-Suku, for instance), but some may. Just something that can turn the match around a bit, and Agrias evade probably would turn respectable even to me with a Feather Mantle+Aegis - which I suspect Tai allows.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

superaielman

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Agrias may not even 3HKO in that case. Bracers/magic gauntlets in the average shoots damage way up, and she's hurt by not being a ble to use her ice brand in the first place. Holy Explosion does 144 damage in that case, which is really pathetic.
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Taishyr

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super: The main internal debate is back to whether or not I allow stat changing accessories, which would make Chie emo here (why halo tharr inane evade, though I'm not sure how good she can actually get it). I'm on the fence regarding Feather Mantles n' shit, so. (Also see super's point, but if I allow the Feather Mantle it's really pretty shiny evade, Chie's gonna have problems nailing through it even with the AGI.

This being said it's still possible that Chie nails turn 1 and that's all she needs, since Agrias' damage is kinda suck as it stands here.

(If Chie had Miori Shirt this wouldn't even be an issue, high respect for Sukukaja. But.)

Dark Holy Elf

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Godlike

Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Shania (SH3): Zophar eats harmonixers, part 2.
Jade (BoF1) vs Rubicant (FF4): They're very similar outside HP, which is very different.
Ice Queen Avril (WA5) vs Terra Branford (FF6): 4D Pocket. Ice Queen Avril has not inherited Belial's luck, it seems.

Heavy

Tana (FE8) vs Yuki (G3): :(
Demi (PS4) vs Carlie (SD3): After buffs are in place, Demi still needs one less hit to kill (3 vs. 4), and with sleep, she makes the gap even wider. Carlie needs to work on that damage.

Middle

Rudy Roughknight (WA1) vs Rena Lanford (SO2): OHKOs with Fury Shot, can't be silenced or otherwise stopped from doing this.
Raijin (FF8) vs Cador (Brig): Cador is good enough for this.

Light

Tempest (L:SSSC) vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7): Probably Tempest? He either 3HKOs or 4HKOs, which isn't very good, but Healing Wind is a very bad limit and I think he has the oomph and chipping options to dodge a L3. Close, may rethink this.
Connie (S3) vs Chu-Chu (XG): I choo-choo-choose to not think about this match too hard.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 10:40:01 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Maybe.

Talaysen

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Souji Seta (P4) vs Yuna (FFX) - If you see Pain as blocked by Dark immunity (haha nulling Light), he still also needs to null physicals to avoid status attacks from Anima, without being weak to Fire, Ice, or Lightning. Not as tall an order if you allow extensive inheritance, but still unlikely. This is assuming that Yuna dodges the first turn, which I think she would. Granted, Rakukaja or Sukukaja on the right Persona could tip it...

Abaddon is Null Fire, Resist Ice, Weak Light, Reflect Dark, and learns Null Physical later.  That do the trick?

Mara's Absorb Fire, Resist Wind, Weak Light, Reflect Dark, and learns Abosrb Physical but that seems worse.

Dark Holy Elf

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More thoughts on Carlie vs. Demi, assuming stat downs work on Demi (since I don't think it's much of a fight if they don't):

Both PS4 and SD3 stat spells erase any previous modification to that stat, so Barrier and the MDef part of Black Curse compete against each other directly. Demi response to Black Curse with Barrier, and can do this 10 times (AND she's much faster than Black Curse-using Carlie so she'd get doubles in while this happened), meaning Carlie would need to spend 66 MP to keep Demi in MDef Down status. This wouldn't leave her with enough MP to win a slugfest. Suffice to say then that Carlie will be up against Barrier'd Demi, who is rather magically tanky. Not really worth it to spam Unicorn against her as such, especially since it eats MP.

So instead she's using her physical game, enhanced by Dark Sabre, against Demi's lowered Def. Stat topic doesn't say exactly how much damage using Black Curse adds, but before it does, Carlie's physical game is below half average damage, AFTER Dark Sabre. Since Demi has above average pdur before Black Curse, this seems like it'll have a lot of trouble putting pressure on. On the other hand, Carlie can heal more times (about 30 times vs. 22) and... may be faster at healing, Heal Light is cool like that. On the other hand, Phonon isn't particularly stat reliant so Demi is still dealing more damage, and then there's the possibility of a sleep win...

Leaning Demi here but open to arguments.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 08:44:04 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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dude789

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Does thunder saber affect specials because if they do I think Carlie's best bet would be going for a OHKO with a thunder sabered lvl 3.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Thunder Saber doesn't affect special skills. And if she's going for Light Path she can kiss her best bet at slowing Demi down goodbye. Don't think her physicals get any worse than Necromancer in Bishop, but.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

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Again, Carlie's physicals are half average offence. Thunder Sabre will increase that, but not to even average, and now she's getting 2HKOed (no Black Curse), which makes a victory via sleep an easy thing to pull off.

Anyway, crunched some numbers. Assuming Black Curse adds 80 to all of Carlie's damage (I think that's what it should do, looking at the stat topic), and takes 33% off both Demi's Strength AND Attack, and assuming a SD3 turn is 2 seconds, and assuming Black Curse is viable...

With Dark Sabre cast, Carlie needs 4 turns to kill Demi. Regular physicals are 6HKO, killer turn with her L3 is low 2HKO. Demi needs 3 turns to kill Carlie. Two of those need to be Phonons.

Here's Demi's strategy. Hit Carlie once. Carlie won't heal now because even if you let her heal and attack on the same turn she'll run out of resources waaay too fast since she only makes Demi heal once every 3 turns and their MP pools aren't that different, as discussed. Demi is now two turns from victory. When she gets her chance, she uses sleep. She has enough uses of sleep that, sooner or later, it WILL cause Carlie to lose 2 turns (note that since Demi is faster, it always makes Carlie lose 1 if it hits). Two Phonons and it's over.

Needless to say the fight is laughable if Black Curse does not work. To give you an idea of the scope of the failure, Carlie now needs 6 turns to kill Demi, while as mentioned, it's 2 in the other direction.

Don't think I'm missing anything, so vote confirmed.


Loose ends: After Barrier, Carlie 4HKOs with magic, same as with physicals... this just burns through her MP faster.

Also, OK commented he sees Carlie with 2x average damage. I can't think of an average that gets her that high. The best I can see for her is the following: everybody gets one attack, regardless of recharge time (classic view says the fighters get in two swings per "turn"). I'll additionally throw out Deathspell entirely since IIRC OK doesn't allow it for some reason, and will assume the L3s take too long to cast, sticking Angela with Dark Force.

Angela: 431
Carlie: 381
Lise: 353
Hawk: 296
Kevin: 186
Duran: 95

Average: 289 (Disclaimer for people not reading closely: I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS CURVE FOR GENERAL USE)

Not especially close to 2x, really. Note that this average additionally is a one-turn one and does not account for backended damage via techs or stat mods. Note also that, if you use this interp, then Carlie and Angela should logically be very, very slow... after all, the fighters get two attacks in before they get off one spell, and Hawk/Lise's spells have almost as large a speed advantage. Still, humouring this idea and assuming all speeds are equal and Kevin fails at offence... Carlie now 3HKOs post-Barrier with Ghost. 2HKOs if she tries to keep Black Curse in place, but again, she just can't win that way, as Demi just heals until Carlie is out of MP. If both are 3HKOing, I still think Sleep will tilt it, though it's closer now. Although if you've thrown charge speed out then you probably shouldn't give Carlie credit for super-fast Heal Light and she's screwed again. Sooo yeah.

Funny, the more I look at this match the less close it gets.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 11:13:38 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Monkeyfinger

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Thunder Sabre will increase that, but not to even average

When you say this, does this include Demi's weakness or no?

Put another way, how long does it it take Thunder Sabered Carlie to be able to heal lock Demi with a physical?

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Well. With 1.5x weakness hitting, Carlie physicals would deal around 33% to average pdur. Demi is well above that, so a heal-lock is sorta inviable.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

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Again: Carlie's physical game is below half average. Thunder Sabre is a 10% power boost (same as Dark Sabre), then makes the physical lightning... but not the L3 tech, which is where a lot of her damage comes from. Depending on how you take Demi's weakness vs. subtractive damage this could affect exactly how bad this is, but it's 3HKO at best against someone who 2HKOs. Thunder Sabre (which involves a non-Black Curse form) isn't viable at all.

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Maybe.

OblivionKnight

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Also, OK commented he sees Carlie with 2x average damage. I can't think of an average that gets her that high. The best I can see for her is the following: everybody gets one attack, regardless of recharge time (classic view says the fighters get in two swings per "turn"). I'll additionally throw out Deathspell entirely since IIRC OK doesn't allow it for some reason, and will assume the L3s take too long to cast, sticking Angela with Dark Force.

Angela: 431
Carlie: 381
Lise: 353
Hawk: 296
Kevin: 186
Duran: 95

Average: 289 (Disclaimer for people not reading closely: I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS CURVE FOR GENERAL USE)

Not especially close to 2x, really. Note that this average additionally is a one-turn one and does not account for backended damage via techs or stat mods. Note also that, if you use this interp, then Carlie and Angela should logically be very, very slow... after all, the fighters get two attacks in before they get off one spell, and Hawk/Lise's spells have almost as large a speed advantage. Still, humouring this idea and assuming all speeds are equal and Kevin fails at offence... Carlie now 3HKOs post-Barrier with Ghost. 2HKOs if she tries to keep Black Curse in place, but again, she just can't win that way, as Demi just heals until Carlie is out of MP. If both are 3HKOing, I still think Sleep will tilt it, though it's closer now. Although if you've thrown charge speed out then you probably shouldn't give Carlie credit for super-fast Heal Light and she's screwed again. Sooo yeah.

You're right, I was mis-remembering numbers.  Thought she was closer to 2x or so, but I guess I forgot that Lise had magic there >_>  Yeah, I do take the average as one attack, ignoring charge time (like for pretty much all games, since I default to turn-based for everything in the DL), but I do allow Deathspell, just don't factor it in to the damage average for anyone but Angela (since it's about 3x better than the best of the others, and about 2x her best), though, at one point, I didn't factor it at all since it was level-based...but decided against that.  Also don't assume Kevin's wolf form, but that modifies it barely.  And forgot Hawk had some spells as well that raised it!  Yay never using them for offense in-game >_>

95
492
116
382
353
296

289 average, so Ghost from Carlie (382) is about 1.32x.  ANGELA, on the other hand, is 3.5x with Deathspell, and 1.7x with her elemental spell as noted above.  With Deathspell factored in, it reaches 2.7x average damage (for Deathspell...average jumps to 374 if you factor it in)
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

AndrewRogue

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Jade (BoF1) vs Rubicant (FF4)

Heavy

Ness (EB) vs Nina (BoF1)
Chie Satonaka (P4) vs Agrias Oaks (FFT)

Middle

Raijin (FF8) vs Cador (Brig)

Light

Connie (S3) vs Chu-Chu (XG)

Pyro

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Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Shania (SH3): The Voice > fanservice.
Jade (BoF1) vs Rubicant (FF4): Beats Rubi in everything that matters.
Ice Queen Avril (WA5) vs Terra Branford (FF6): This makes me sad.
Souji Seta (P4) vs Yuna (FFX): Auto-Suku -> kill works.

Heavy

Ness (EB) vs Nina (BoF1): I'm just gonna shrug and go along with the crowd.
Tana (FE8) vs Yuki (G3): This is not pretty.
Chie Satonaka (P4) vs Agrias Oaks (FFT): PC->Kill
Demi (PS4) vs Carlie (SD3): As NEB goes...

Middle

Rudy Roughknight (WA1) vs Rena Lanford (SO2): Heal lock till 100 FP works?
Junpei Iori (P3) vs Scythe Riebauer (WA4): Junpei - spoiling.
Raijin (FF8) vs Cador (Brig): Kneejerk. Thats about all I can EVER do with Brig.

Light

Tempest (L:SSSC) vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7): Seal Evil or something else works.
Nina (BoF3) vs Aguro (L1): I'm just going to vote and walk away. Anyways, Aguro is slow, Nina is fast, and she can probably 3HKO his horrible Res, even though he has HP?
Connie (S3) vs Chu-Chu (XG)
Garet (GS) vs Kahn (BoF4): GOOOOOOOOO KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Pyro: Nina3 isn't... very fast. She's just somewhat above average, nothing fancy (Nina4 is the awesome speedster). I'm not sure if Aguro's RES outpaces that game-best HP, it -could-. If he is even close to average mdur in practice, Nina3 is unlikely to win, since I have serious doubts about a 3-2 there, and she's eating a 2HKO there.

Why do I care, though. >_>
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

superaielman

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I'm not sure Nina3 even 3HKOs there (BoF3 damage curve) on top of all that.
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...