Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (GAME OVER)

[AndrewRogue]

I want to continue to reiterate my feelings about Nitori about this point, before we get lost in the storm of Otter vs Yakumo. He's spent most of the game lurking and hanging back. He jumped on trains fairly casually without doing much to actually investigate the issues or put in his two cents. This is the first time he's really expressed any sort of strong feeling. At least OK put out some substantive posts between lurks. I can't really recall anything Nitori did, but vaguely hang on me during the Ciato train.

I'm going to say this right now. People NEED to get roleclaims out there. We are in LYLO. If we screw up here, the game is over. There is no reason to be holding back. In fact, I'm utterly dumbfounded that people AREN'T CLAIMING. It is beyond stupid to try and lynch without having every piece of information we can on the table at this point.

I really wanted to wait and see who came out willingly, but obviously you guys need to be reminded.

Ninja'd: Also, good to hear from OK, with (as usual) another deep and extensive analysis!

[OblivionKnight]

LYLO...

The logic of putting roleclaims out now is that we get info out there and can figure out whether we trust it as a group.  I do somewhat agree that it's important, but...mmm...

Who has claimed so far?  Andy, Corwin?  Is that it?

I know Dhyer was the one that questioned the need to roleclaim and Corwin pushed it first. 

...actually, does that cast suspicion on Dhyer?  Is he purposely trying to push us back from claiming to prevent a rally?  He has good logic there (do we have a power role to counter-claim against?), though in LYLO, it is important to have all information. 

Mmm...this is interesting.  We are in LYLO (which I've never been in before!  how fun!), and every piece of information does count.  My only concern is that it's easy to lie in this intance - we have a list of roles, we know a lot of what's been kicked down, and scum are very likely to be able to find some safe, powerful role to pick up if they need a claim.  Will it help much to claim now, or wait for a counter-claim to counter a role if possible?  With only two roles on the table (a one-shot vig and potentially naive cop claim), we don't have much to go with  Honestly, I've hinted at it early what I am, but if we're calling for full roleclaims, we can do that now.

I guess everyone claims, and we see how it goes.   

[Ranmilia]

Votecount!  With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!

.... no one has voted.

24 hours have elapsed in day 3. 

[OblivionKnight]

And since I forgot to do the claim...

I am a pink and pretty ball.  While I'm nice to look at, that's about it.  I'm not special otherwise. 

[Corwin]

No one has voted because even a single wrong vote = scum win. I really don't think rushing us is all that productive, especially given what happened with Ciato. Go to bed, expect to see Andrew lynched... wake up, wtf last-moment Ciato train. If anything, actual set-in-stone day lengths would be superior since we would know what to expect.

Eh. Announcing my intent (but not voting despite having the chance, Otter) was to get people moving and get a claim out there from anyone who could miraculously save Andrew, unlikely as that seemed. Yeah, no one really cared to roleclaim (aside from OK just now: edit), which will probably doom us all, but I can't really do much to convince you when I have to leave a message in a bottle and then wait a full day to see if you guys agree (you didn't here, for whatever reason you have; this is LYLO, when are you going to claim, post-game?).

So I'll be going with Andy for reals, now. His roleclaim stated he was 'a town cop'. He also said he investigated LD. Well, what if he's telling the truth? He could be a rolecop who hit LD by sheer luck and found out she was a (sane) cop. That 'a' is either a figure of speach, or a slip to indicate that he knew there were other cops in the game -- a fact he would have no way of knowing otherwise. If he's a town rolecop that's lying (a possibility, if a tiny one), then congratulations, town blatantly and pointlessly lying just cost us the game.

Edit: taking out the vote since OK did claim, and others might actually get the hint that it's pointless to wait. If there are none by the time I go to bed, I'll properly place the vote on Andrew where I think it belongs.

If Andrew flips scum... Dhyer seems suspicious due to both his reluctance to roleclaim in LYLO while waiting on some magical later moment when we're not in LYLO, perhaps? Unless scum hit themselves, I don't see it happen, and I certainly won't see it happen if we mislynch. And we could, since we have less information now than with people claiming and discussing those claims. Ciato also named him, for better or worse -- her intuition was wrong about Kilga, as was mine. Him leaning towards Otter rather than Andrew... hard to say. I find Otter suspicious as hell, just not quite at Andrew's level. But it could be a judgement call just as well as it could be an attempt to diversify the candidate pool for today right after I said Andrew was my leading candidate and make us run in circles and hesitate. It probably wouldn't take long before new targets appear, and things get deflected. Yeah, no, let's settle this here.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=375.msg8911#msg8911

Otter:

Implicated by Dhyer, although it bears mentioning that all three people Ciato mentioned had just voted for her;

I presume he means 'implicated by Ciato'. Why do I mention this?

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=375.msg8923#msg8923

Otter:

Quote from: Yakumo
I lean toward believing Kilga's claim, so I'm not going to consider him for the moment.

Oh, really?  You believe Kilga's telling the truth?  That's handy now that he's been vig'd by Corwin, just last night.

So... Otter is going after Yakumo hard based on a slip similar to one he himself had committed a bit earlier, of using the wrong name. He goes on to say, in that same post, "I've changed my mind.  Yakumo has soared ahead of the competition as my prime suspect right now." which is largely due to this. The other component of his suspicion lies in apparently forgetting a Night Kill, which... yes, he was guilty of himself the other day.

Mind, this doesn't clear Yakumo because Otter jumped on him. If Andrew/Otter flip as scum, then it would possibly be the same smokescreen tactic I believe Otter has employed wrt Andrew earlier in the game. And a scumtell is still a scumtell, even if fellow scum points it out (to drag this into WIFOM territory, perhaps, and make us ignore the slip). All scum need is to get us to mislynch once, and even getting Andrew and Otter wouldn't win us the game without Scum #3. What better way than to try and divert the lynch elsewhere, and fight amongst themselves if that proves impossible?

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=375.msg8925#msg8925

Why is he so sure of this, Yakumo? Because scum know who they killed.

Some further thoughts/responses. Why didn't I vig Andrew out of my two day 2 targets, instead going with Kilga? Because I decided to try Ciato's theory by checking someone who had NOT claimed cop, and indeed someone town didn't feel like voting for, even with Andrew temporarily off the hook with his claim. I didn't believe Andrew. I don't even more, after Kilga's flip. However, I had my suspicions about Andrew and Otter when night hit, but had no idea who the third scum could be. I knew we would be in perpetual LYLO from that point on, so this was my chance of trying to hit the third scum, and I picked the scummiest looking person to me for that. Otter finds this all 'a little funny' in his post, despite me already stating all this in the post where I claim. In turn, that makes Otter look a little funny to me.

Otter, again:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=375.msg8928#msg8928

This... is actually not true. While we had 'two' cops, only one of them was, you know, an actual town role. Paranoid is worse than useless for town. As this is specifically stated to be a mentor game with a pretty open setup... what exactly would it teach the mentored players if role craziness seeped in? What, it's okay because we had more than two vanilla townies so far, unlike in VtM and Touhou? Yeah, no. On its own value, this is a stupid, meta argument, I agree. But taken with everything else, it makes sense that there were only two town cops and Andrew is Something Else (like a scum rolecop, which is my theory).

As for me tying Otter and Andrew together... what can I say? I think both are scummy-looking separately, certainly enough to be the prime two candidates. At the same time, I see yet more (unrelated) signs of the two possibly working together. THAT along with the individual scumminess is what would make me lynch Otter if Andrew flips scum, not just guilt by assosiation.

P.S.
OK is someone I keep forget is playing till someone names him or I see a post from him. Man, if we weren't in LYLO.... And yet I ironically find myself in agreement with Otter that what few posts we have from OK don't read as scummy. Still, Nitori makes a good point here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=375.msg8926#msg8926 re: Otter and his constant, low-key approval of OK. I dunno.

[Dhyerwolf]

Yes, my question to Ciato did alter slightly. I had first written as summary of Ciato vs Corwin. I guess I was expecting was some sort of response since part of it boiled down to “I’m confused about what Ciato said” which I was considering some pressure to anwer. She didn’t give any response to it, so I moved into the direct question stage, and then to the vote stage. My question did change partially because I didn’t understand the point at first. After prodding, she finally answered the 1/3 part, which then lead me to ask why she was considering a second vote a train. I didn’t ask her the same exact question every time, but it was the same line of questioning that I was having trouble getting an answer on.  At first it was just a weird inconsistency, but as I kept bringing it up and getting nothing, I got more suspicious of her calling it a train since it did not seem to be. Since I thought it would be a pretty easy question to answer, I thought there might be something to her not answering, which was bolstered by her snapping at me.

My reason for saying to wait on a claim rush is that we still could have useful powers, and their use may be lost if the powers are revealed or may make the person a big target for scum. If these powers exist, we want to get full potential use of them, and role claims could wreck that chance. This is why I wanted to hear everyone’s opinion on this before rushing in. If it’s generally agreed upon, it would mean that the majority of town would be for it. If it’s one or two people rushing off and claiming, then we don’t know the alignment of people pushing for claims. We’ve heard specifically from 3 people! Really far from a consensus. Most of us seem to agree that we have two really good candidates for lynch today, and if so, we do not all need to flips our hand right at this moment! OK claiming right after admitting I had good logic and earlier saying full-scale claiming was a bad idea rancors me though. Why the sudden change? If we are all in agreeance, then claiming is fine! As of now, we don’t know who is pushing for it. Corwin, I also don’t see how this viewpoint implicates me if Andrew flips scum.

I do seem to remember Otter’s previous pushings for lynches to be without reservation, but these memories are several games old and without previous direct quotes, I can’t be sure either way. That said, LD’s possible implication of Otter really does make him the best lynch option to me. Andy’s result today sits pretty badly also (Although…I don’t get why Corwin is analyzing his use of “a” in a sentence).

Corwin, would why me leaning Otter over Andrew be working to make town run in circles and hesitate? You admit in the same post that they both look scummy looking and appear to be working together. If Otter looks scummy to you, why my thinking he’s the more problematic one be bad?

[AndrewRogue]

Corwin, you are making a huge mistake for no reason at all. You're... flailing, for lack of a better word. You start off by saying that you don't want to rush things, but then move to put it out there that you're going to vote for me at about the 24 hour mark? When, shock and amaze, we haven't gotten much in the way of information?

And then your justification for it this post is absolutely ridiculous and nit picking at goddamn semantics. Worse yet, you are quibbling semantics without looking at my whole sentence. You are SELECTIVELY QUOTING TO MAKE ME LOOK BAD. YOU RIP 'a town cop' COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT TO REACH THE CONCLUSION THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO.

Hell, the conclusion you reach is even worse, as it contains a logical disconnect about as large as something I have no analogy to actually represent. Your ENTIRE basis for voting me at this juncture seems based on this whacked out theory that I'm a rolecop, based on me claiming I'm 'a town cop.' What the bloody hell, Corwin? This logical connection is just short of impossible, especially if you, you know, don't quote me OUT OF CONTEXT.

This also means I spend pretty much all of my time standing around, watching things, which gives me rather special insight into things. In other words, I'm a Town Cop.

You are attacking me on something that you could attack me on no matter how I phrased it. If I said "I'm the Town Cop," I have the feeling you'd be attacking me in the same way, asking "But how could he have known that he was the only cop?"

This, combined with the whole "you only claimed town cop, thus you don't have a sanity" thing is... completely dumbfounding. These attacks on me are worse than baseless. You are making things up and inventing arguments against me.

Yeah. This is... beyond scummy behavior. You have moved from "patience with the lynch" to "must hit Andrew now!" in the space of 24 hours. You level another completely specious argument on me by ripping a statement I made out of context and then proceeding to utterly bastardize the English language by trying to use the word "a" as the entire basis for this theory that I'm a scum rolecop. Add in with your previous silliness (Cops. Are. Not. Told. Sanity.) and some other questionable logic in this post (the part about me and Otter being linked stands out as particularly bad, as you don't actually explain what these seeming links are), and I'm left absolutely speechless.

I can see no way in which this is not scummy.

People. Roleclaims. Now. FULL CLAIMS. NAME. ALIGNMENT. ROLE. YOU SHOULD NOT TRY TO VOTE WITHOUT HAVING EVERYTHING ON THE TABLE.

Ninja'd by Dhyer, but I need to go bed. I'll hit him in the morning.

[Corwin]

Why, Dhyer? I suppose it's how I felt after day 2, where there were two leading people up for the lynch, but town (+scum) ended up doing a last moment Ciato lynch. A scenario where people lean more towards Otter, who comes out with an awesome roleclaim just as Alex imposes a deadline... is it really so implausible, given past events?

And Andrew, I'm not flailing. Far too often, the biggest slips are the simple ones, where you basically act on information you shouldn't reasonably have and don't even notice it since the slip is at first glance so minor. Otter was hounded for why he accepted my claim of vigging Kilga, apparently without question. There's a perfectly valid reason why he would (though hardly the only one), and that would be that scum have no reason to doubt my claim. Had you said 'I'm the town cop' the way you suggested, I would be attacking you over... what, specifically? It's natural to assume you're the only cop in a game where only vanilla have flipped before. It's not at all natural to assume you are one cop out of many before any of the two confirmed cops have actually flipped or claimed. Must you or your scum buddies be rolecops? Hardly, it's just the likeliest outcome. As scum, you'd have a unique pov on townies, and one of you could have spotted LD's attempts to go after Otter persistently as suspicion of her role.

"Yeah. This is... beyond scummy behavior. You have moved from "patience with the lynch" to "must hit Andrew now!" in the space of 24 hours."

Yeah, that's not true. I gave my opinion, and asked people to fullclaim. No one did by the time I woke up those 24 hours later. As I was typing a post, OK finally did. What do you expect me to do, give up sleep on a workday for mafia, and so that Alex doesn't decide to impose another deadline that would end before I could reasonably be around? I tried to participate, and I didn't get the information I asked for, or even a counter argument of why this would be a bad idea from anyone but Dhyer. Thus, my mind about you and Otter hasn't changed a bit, and my perceived chances of getting a response don't seem too hot. Since I don't want to leave the lynch up to chance and scum, my vote should be where I feel it is needed most. The only reason it's not there yet is that there is a small, infinitesimal chance of a full claim shedding more light on the entire situation.

[Yakumo]

I disagree with the need for a full roleclaim at this point.  Based on the roles we've seen so far, I don't see any reason for nameclaims to give us any real info on who's town or scum, as I for one wouldn't call those cursed switch gnomes good guys, for example.  We also have a full list of possible roles and a disclaimer stating that there may be multiples of any given role, so even if two people somehow come out with the same thing we don't have anything to prove either one is lying.  The scum are just going to lie about their roles and we're going to end up giving scum information about any power roles we happen to have remaining, if any, which helps them decide which people to NK to make sure we don't get all three of them.  There's plenty of ways a role could still help us out if it survives to do it, and I for one don't want to give the scum any more ammo than necessary.  If everyone else agrees, fine, but I'm against it.

[Corwin]

Who would your vote go for at this point, Yakumo?

[Corwin]

I see. Well, I'll try to be around for four more hours, tops, though the later into the day it goes, the less coherent I tend to become. Bah.

[OblivionKnight]

Don't get me wrong - I do see the point of not claiming at the point.

But the fact of the matter is that we are pretty down.  I've seen LYLO as the roleclaim point in multiple games.  If we myslynch, we lose, unless we have a doc or something that ends up saving our asses for one more day.  But I don't want to count on a crapshoot. 

The more I thought about it, the more I realized that it is probably more helpful to claim at the moment than to not.  People can slip up when talking.  If people stay quiet about the roles, then there's no chance of that, so we're going on what we have.  And frankly, our track record so far is shit, so we could use any help we can get.  Even if all roles are revealed, and someone dies during the night, if we took out a scum, that still gives us a chance, and provides data to look at later on.  Yes, scum can just lie, but that's not guaranteed to work, and they can slip up. 

As I said, I do acknowledge the reasoning in not doing it, but I don't think that will be helpful at the moment.  Any info is good, and even if scum lie, there's a chance to see through them.  If nothing is said, we lose that opportunity.

Re: Me not being around - Again, I apologize, but I did tell everyone this happens with me.  The most important part is that I've been consistent with it - about a post each day, and it's been thoughtful and helpful.  Oddly, the only reason I'm around so early today is I have class later tonight, so I got out of rotation early >_>  So good for all, I suppose.

[Dhyerwolf]

After thinking on it more, I’m starting to find this role claim push really scummy. Corwin’s relevation made sense as it did give extra insight into his alignment because it was a provable power, and that is the only way we’ll get information other than everyone says that they are town. There are still roles that could make a big difference in this game, and town members would not want them smoked out. Andrew’s adamancy to get people to claim has definitely veered towards fishing, which just strongly reinforces any suspicions I have about him. I do not see a townie being that aggressive about it, because it is not in town’s interest.

OK isn’t as bad off, but the rapid switch from being against role claims to being for role claims also does not look good at all to me. Unlike Corwin, his reveal did not actually tell us anything since the only way to get any extra confirmation of townieness is a provable townie power. OK, taking out a scum gives us a chance, but if we have a role that can help later in the game (And I can think of at least 2-3 on the list that could be extremely beneficial to town that we would not want scum to know about) we want to keep those. We already have two really good candidates for lynching today, so everyone else flipping their cards wouldn't really have any effect today other than to inform scum what townies can and can not do. An argument for saying someone might slip up in claiming does not really hold to the fact that claiming could wreck some really effective town roles from working, and the chance of claiming giving us any extra info is really slim.

If someone is in danger, they should roleclaim. If you aren’t and you can’t give us any extra information from claiming, do not do it. Waiting for mass fullclaim isn’t really a workable strategy right now, because doing that is not in town’s interest. If someone had some kind of claim that would clear someone who is danger, they likely would have already done it given that we have no room for error.

Still not seeing the logic on any potential misleading of town, Corwin. If I find someone to be the most scummy at a point, why would I not say on an LYLO? If more people leaned towards Otter, he’d be in danger and hence should roleclaim. We can firm up who we want to vote for without voting now given the circumstances. For the record, after his push to get people to claim, Andrew and Otter are really even in my book.

[Corwin]

Tired, etc. Well. Have we discussed all that needs to be discussed? Will probably vote in the morning, so if there's someone (besides Andrew) who doesn't find Andrew scummy and thus a suitable lynch target for today, please say why in the meantime.

[Nitori]

Well, after everything that's really been said, I find myself slightly more suspicious of OK for the switch, although both sides of the roleclaim issue bring up good points. Yakko's Kilga slip is kind of worrying, but I don't have a heavy read of Yakko one way or another at this point in time...which is really kind of worrying. Plus, he more or less outright said that he thought Ciato was town without really stopping to summarize his point further, although that was an awfully sudden deadline. I think I'm more suspicious of OK/Yakko now, although Otter still remains my choice for today.

Roleclaiming! Both sides make pretty good points, although it's more important to survive today than anything else. Given that, I kinda want to side with the roleclaiming crew, although I'm still a little wary since I do see the point Dhyer makes about Andy possibly wanting to fish...I suppose my final opinion on this will be determined on how the rest of the day plays out.

[Yakumo]

My feelings are still Otter and Andrew, then the rest of the group is all muddled together a lot farther down.  Otter still hasn't actually answered the question of why he would say that someone should allow no lynch in the Ciato situation, he's been trying instead to divert attention by calling out my mistakes while not actually admitting his own.  I admit I made a mistake by saying Kilga instead of Corwin, but given that Kilga never claimed and the person that claimed was talking about having killed him, I think that's a bit less offensive of a slip than completely forgetting that someone died at all, which is what Otter did, so him pressing me so hard on that issue is very hypocritical. 

Since nobody's said anything in over six hours, I'm going to test the waters with this vote.  And honestly, if Otter's playing this way as a townie, I want this game to be over anyway so I don't have to be on the same side as him anymore, his play and attitude this game is frankly making me sick.

##Vote: Otter

[Otter]

Since nobody's said anything in over six hours, I'm going to test the waters with this vote.  And honestly, if Otter's playing this way as a townie, I want this game to be over anyway so I don't have to be on the same side as him anymore, his play and attitude this game is frankly making me sick.

You don't "test the waters" with a vote in LYLO, that could be instant death for town.  Your grand, final justification for this?  You don't wanna play with me anyway!  I make you sick!  This kind of petty personal charge has been characteristic of your tirade against me from the beginning, there's never been any substance to it, and now you're trying to use that to end this game here and now.

##VOTE: Yakumo.  Voting first in LYLO over hurt feelings?  It's impossible to believe that a member of Team Town would endanger it so pointlessly.

[Yakumo]

Voting first in LYLO because NOTHING IS HAPPENING.  There's a difference.  The fact that you're being a pompous asshat has nothing to do with why I choose to vote now, and I've been thinking you were scum since the beginning, far before I accused you of incivility, so can it with that garbage. 

[AndrewRogue]

Okay. I want to reiterate this point right now.

Town LOSES THE GAME IF YOU LYNCH WRONG AT THIS POINT. Having a good power role won't MATTER if you screw up at this point. More to the point, having a good power role at this point means you might actually have something to run with. Is there a guarantee? No. Is it still information that could help prevent the loss of the game? YES.

Bloody fucking hell people, this concept isn't that hard to understand. Any potential information > No information.

Say it with me. ANY POTENTIAL INFORMATION > NO INFORMATION. You think role fishing at this point is scummy? What about quashing the spread of information that could, you know, help town not lose the game?

Ninja'd: ...unfuckingbelievable. You not only say that town shouldn't claim in LYLO, but then you decide to vote without warning, without giving Otter (as well as the rest of town) a chance to claim?

Yeah. This is the bloody definition of scummy.

##Vote: Yakumo

Ninja'd 2: ...yeah. This is ridiculous. My vote stands.

[Otter]

So now you're calling me an asshat, telling me to "can it," and saying that you suspected me "since the beginning," for some untold reason.  At this point you've given up any pretense that this isn't just a grudge on your part.

Personally, I'm not going to take any of your insults personally, because I don't think you mean them -- I think you're in character right now as a scum, and you're trying to drown out attempts at figuring out who the scum are by opposing roleclaims and using ad hominems in the place of actual discussion.  This is a worthwhile tactic, because in LYLO, it doesn't matter if you look bad after the fact; get me mislynched and you've won already.

[Corwin]

Andrew mentions Yakumo voting Otter without waiting on Otter's roleclaim. Well. Otter's had plenty of chances to claim, but here's another one. I'm getting pretty tired of the day anyhow, and since I see you and Andrew as a scum pair, an Otter vote is fine too. Don't want me to vote you, Otter? Let's hear that full roleclaim that Andrew says Yakumo can't vote you for without.

[Yakumo]

I repeat, again, that at this point I don't honestly care about ANYONE'S claims.  Someone who's on the block, a full roleclaim, whatever: claims at this point are more likely to muddy the water than give us any real info.  Say Otter claims doc, what then?  Several people have voiced suspicions of Otter before I voted, are you all going to drop a case in LYLO because he's claimed a virtually unprovable power?  There is no claim left that making it would seriously matter, as the only semi-provable one was the vigilante claim.  The best that could happen, absolute best case, is that the claim fishes out a counter-claim and we guess right who's lying.  In which case, the other person is now NK-bait since they're the closest thing there is to confirmed town without actually -being- confirmed.  Why is it so important at this stage of the game when we have to guard any little advantage we have that someone on the block brings out a full roleclaim?  If they're scum, they're going to lie about it.  Period.  They're not just going to come out and say "oh, you got me, I'm scum, g'bye!".  They'll claim some power that can't be proven, or claim an important power to try and buy time/fish out the real thing, or just claim the ultimate unprovable power, Vanilla.  The only thing this does is cause problems.  I do not want roleclaims at this point, hence I have no compulsion against voting without one.  Hell, if he wanted to claim, he's had plenty of time, I'm hardly the only one that's been speaking against him, just the most vocal.  And even now, even after votes have been placed in LYLO, Otter still refuses to answer the question posed against him, and is now claiming that the entire time I've been attacking him, this entire game, I've never told the reason!  It's quite clear with any sort of reading comprehension whatsoever that I have had reasons, whether you agree with them or not, for voting for him every day this game.  Especially this day, as he has been blatantly ignoring every good point I brought against him in favor of tearing apart a mistake much more minor than his own very obvious day 2 gaffe, and is attacking me for my finally getting upset at him for the incivility he's shown anyone he's talked to for the entire game.  I stand by that statement: that's the way you're acting, you're defending yourself with arguments that hold no weight whatsoever, and you need to either bring actual logic to the table or just shut up.

[Yakumo]

Oh, and in case you plan on using this fact that I dislike roleclaims in general against me, try and find a game where I claimed and I wasn't a cop with info with the town, and I wasn't the last person in a full roleclaim.  FFT: Never claimed.  Tsukihime: Last person to go when a full roleclaim was demanded.  NR: Never claimed.  Random: Never claimed, despite the call for a full roleclaim.  Discworld/Touhou: Had cop results that I was trying to use to help town.  Vampire doesn't count since I just wanted the horribly designed game to end.  The only game I can think of that I actually roleclaimed in was Pretty Princess, which was hardly normal for a Mafia game and I partly just thought my character was hilarious.  Not wanting roleclaims is hardly a new thing for me, for all that Andrew seems to think if we don't give everyone the chance to tell scum what we are we must be scum.  Not sure how that works, exactly.  That gives the scum all the information, and allows the scum to introduce false information to make figuring everything out even harder than it already was, while looking like good little townies in the process.

[Corwin]

I won't bother arguing at this point, we can always do this post-game. I will wait on Otter to post before voting, however. I've waited this long, a few more hours is nothing.

[Ranmilia]

Votecount!  With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch, town is in LYLO.

Otter (1): Yakumo
Yakumo (2): Otter, Andrew

Some 60ish hours have passed in day 3.  There is no deadline in LYLO.